Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

[AmiGR]

You was in the plural number.

And about not seeing the other side... I was in that
side for A LONG time... I know what happens and
that's why I'm not an A Inc fanatic anymore. Yes, I
was at some time. I support the Pegasos and
MorphOS and I'll support OS4 but I'll never support
Amiga Inc again.

I think this is all a rather mute point... lets face it, most of the people in here wouldn't pirate it. It the ones that are just fringe members of the Community that will.

[ShadesOfGrey]

mips_proc wrote:

is no where near as Draconian

ahhh but what other company that dosent make hardware... has romed their OS to one board?.....find one...

So, what's your point?  The OEM license would be OK if Hyperion or AI were making the hardware instead of Eyetech, or if Eyetech were developing the AOS4 instead of Hyperion?

At this stage of the game, the license restrictions are intended to maximize the revenues for all three companies and to limit their overhead (incl. development and end user support.  Yes by throttling the market).  Working in partnership.  Toward releasing a PPC based Amiga (if in name only) and Amiga OS.  But apparently that is unimportant.

So here are the only two solutions it seems you will accept.  

One, AI, Hyperion, and Eyetech merge into one entity.  AI goes back to making hardware under their Eyetech division, transitional OS development goes to their Hyperion division, and AI continues doing whatever the hell it is they're doing (supposedly AA/ADE/OS5).  Thereby making the OEM license 'Kosher'.

Two, AI, Hyperion, and Eyetech cease all development of any products.  Freeing up whatever IP they have acquired or created to the highest bidder.  With the Amiga name and original IP reverting back to Gateway.

<[color=FF0000]sarcasm-so-thick-you-couldn't-cut-it-with-a-20,000-terra-watt-narrow-beam-laser[/color]>
Yippee!  Wouldn't option number two be great!!!
<[color=FF0000]/sarcasm-so-thick-you-couldn't-cut-it-with-a-20,000-terra-watt-narrow-beam-laser[/color]>


FYI, anyone else wanting to grow the AOS4 hardware platform can negotiate a license...  So far, no one who has tried, has been turned down.  So your assertion that they (AI/Hyperion) have"romed their OS to one board", is inaccurate.  Now if they refuse additional applicants out of hand, then perhaps your statement will carry more validity.

At this rate, by the time another party decides to negotiate a license, the licensing situation will likely be moot.  Either option one or two above will come to pass, or the licensing terms themselves will have changed.

[ShadesOfGrey]

@Kronos

AINc has made it 100% clear that there wonb't be a retail version

Have they now, I'll have to take another look.

Both AInc and Eyetech have invested 0.0$ into OS4, and so I see no

And you know this how?  The way I see it, Eyetech are investing in AOS4 by producing (by whatever means) hardware for AOS4.  And the OEM license provides them the most protection.  I could argue that they also have taken the most risk.  I'll concede AI have had little to do with the development of AOS4.  Beyond licensing the trademark and source code to Hyperion, they've sat back and done nothing...  Well, except start a questionable fan club.

[ShadesOfGrey]

-D- wrote:
>In effect, the Pegasos and G-REXX are hardware
dongles and thus provide copy protection.

That's not even close to the same thing as a
specific ROM and OS coded to work together for
vague corpo reasons...besides, the intended
purpose of the G-REXX and Pegasos have nothing
to do with copy protection, unlike the A1/OS4
scenario. It's not an accurate comparison.

First how is it any different?  What, it's covert as opposed to overt?  I mean this sincerely, to my perception, Genesi's strategy is no different than AI/Hyperion/Eyetech's.  Since Genesi have (to my knowledge) made no statements regarding the licensing policy, I think it unfair to condemn AI/Hyperion/Eyetech.  I'm perfectly willing to support one, the other, or both.  But I won't support any until all the facts are out.

I can't disprove that the G-REX and Pegasos aren't means of copy protection.  So Genesi and DCE will have to.  Same with AI/Hyperion/Eyetech proving that they will only support the current OEM license, in perpetuity. [Note: Kronos claims the exec updates confirm this.  Until I have, I will continue to support my initial argument.]

I'll say it again, these prejudices have got to end.

[ShadesOfGrey]

@mips

so what?... microsoft a gigantic real company... their not in the same boat 'AT ALL" as A1/OS4...

You've actually just made a valid argument for the ROM dongle...  AI/Hyperion/Eyetech are not in the same league as Microsoft.  AI/Hyperion/Eyetech (and even Gensi, since MorphOS is pretty much just A/Box) are in a re-emerging market (well that's what I'm hoping) while Microsoft are in an established market.  Hence their strategies will be different.

AI/Hyperion/Eyetech are trying to throttle the AOS market.  Why? Because they couldn't possibly support (and I don't just mean tesh support) the explosive growth so many here seem to desire.  Have AI/Hyperion/Eyetech precluded explosive growth?  I don't think so.  They've just built in a pressure release valve for the AOS market with the ROM dongle.

Until MorphOS for the Teron and (yet unreleased) Barbie, I think it's safe to say Genesi is doing the same.  And I sincerely don't blame them!

[ShadesOfGrey]

@ Mips

I dont think hardware companies should have to bend over backward for the privelige of having an OS run on their hardware.... most if not all of these solutions primary OS and intention is not to run AOS/ MOS or any alternative... but to run Linux anyway..

Do we know for a fact that a hardware company has "to bend over backward"?  So far, only Eyetech have negotiated one.  All other parties (Apple, Genesi, Barbie, and the SBC or 'brick' PPC manufacturers)  have chosen not to even investigate the terms of the license.  So how can we know that obtaining a license is so difficult.

[ShadesOfGrey]

samface wrote:

2. The Barbie? I'm sorry but that Linux dude is the kind of guy that expects others to create software specificly for his hardware on their own initiative. That's not how it works. If he gets a userbase for his hardware then maybe, but that on the other hand requires software for it. What has Hyperion to gain from making support for his hardware with basicly a non-existent userbase? Nothing. What does he has to gain from having AmigaOS4 support? I'd say a whole lot. Wake up and smell the coffee...

Uh, I think you misunderstand the purpose of the Barbie board...  Man I wish it had a different name...  I keep seeing a silly plastic mannequin every time I write "Barbie".  Anyway, the Barbie is targeted at a market willing to bring a software platform to just about any hardware platform...  That software platform is Linux.  All he has to do is put it out there...  He could even sell it as kit with the disclaimer like, "This is a hobbyist machine.  Hardware support will be limited to certain physical defects in the Barbie.  Any and all other hardware issues must be addressed by the second or third party hardware manufacturer.  This includes the BIOS, North & South bridge chips, and integrated audio, video, and network solutions.  This disclaimer is subject to change at any time without notice."  I'm not saying this will happen.  In fact I'm pretty sure it wouldn't.  But it is possible.

The point is, the Barvie is targeted firmly at the Linux world...  It still doesn't mean we would never see AOS4 officially on the Barbie.  It just means a hardware vendor, as opposed to the Barbie manufacturer, would have to negotiate a license.

. All other parties (Apple, Genesi, Barbie, and the SBC or 'brick' PPC manufacturers) have chosen not to even investigate the terms of the license. So how can we know that obtaining a license is so difficult.

@all

I know I know I look lika hipocrite for responding to this but I felt I had to.

here is what Ross the developer of Barbie said about it.
----------------------------------------------------------
325. Ross Heinlein
I'm in developement of a POP board, the "barbie" http://penguinppc.org/dev/pop/ If I can make AOS4 run on this, I'll contribute my sources/drivers, if not, well, one board is better than none, eh? Barbie will NOT be licensing AOS, we don't deal with software companies, it's not our job to chase down OS developers. If you'd like to work on this board, fine, I'll help, if not, that's fine too. Your policy guarantees that your OS will only run on boards specifically manufactured for that purpose, which is very shortsighted considering many PPC boards are about to begin developement due to recently available PPC chipset solutions. You need to realise that as Hardware manufacturers, your OS licensing is NOT our concern, we just build hardware, we don't play games and tailor separate product lines for every "niche-OS" who has crazy ideas, you should rethink yours. I do not speak for my employer in a manner I can be held accountable for, but what I say is a valid representation of their (and my) views on the matter
------------------------------------------------



we all know what happend with Genesi....the supposed 'stolen code' and 'lawsuits' and nonsense..

I call this 'bending over backward' haveing to insert their spacific rom to the board...

this is my OPINON of it...

and shades

saying 'its a piece of crap board' dosent count as a valid excuse why OS4 should be stuck on A1 only.. I personally would buy a Barbie over an A1 ... the barbie has dual gigabit nics and dual IDE raid.. 2 PCI slots and 2 SDRAM slots...it will fit into as 1U.... its certinly not crap as you might think... I cant believe an A1 supporter would poke fun at barbie...thats the pot calling the kettle black.

[ShadesOfGrey]

Kronos wrote:
@DaveP

What are you on ?

Yes any Pegasos will ship with MorphOS, just like any Mac
ships with MacOS and every A1 is gonna ship with OS4.

But thats NOT the point of the petition, it is about OS4 being
sold without the HW, to use it on a Pegasos or Mac.

And remember it was Hyperion who talked about running OS4 on Macs
and Pegasos before April. BPlan haven't changed their stance a bit:

If they want to sell their SW for our HW, than they are free to do
it, but we won't give them any special treatment.

Both A1 and Pegasos are NOT closed, it is the OSes that are, and
Genesi atleast haven't ruled out selling MorphOS shrink-wrapped for
A1 or Mac.

What a minute...  Genesi has not made clear their licensing terms.  We do not know if Genesi will require you to purchase a Pegasos in order to obtain MorphOS.  We do not know if MorphOS will ever be released as a retail product.

As to whether or not Hyperion said AOS4 has run on a Mac or Pegasos; has no bearing on whether it will be made commercially available of either platform.  It's a possibility, not a certainty.

I can't say whether Dave_P is lying when he says that Genesi told him they would not allow MorphOS to be unbundle or not.  But then again, I haven't seen Genesi sell MorphOS on anything other than the Pegasos.  So, I can only assume that Genesi are backing the same strategy as AI/Hyperion/Eyetech.

BTW, AFAIK, AI/Hyperion haven't ruled out the Pegasos or Mac (alothough Apple may have something to say about this) or any other PPC solution either.  But they have made it clear licensing will be required.

[ShadesOfGrey]

Kronos wrote:
@DaveP

What are you on ?

Yes any Pegasos will ship with MorphOS, just like any Mac
ships with MacOS and every A1 is gonna ship with OS4.

But thats NOT the point of the petition, it is about OS4 being
sold without the HW, to use it on a Pegasos or Mac.

And remember it was Hyperion who talked about running OS4 on Macs
and Pegasos before April. BPlan haven't changed their stance a bit:

If they want to sell their SW for our HW, than they are free to do
it, but we won't give them any special treatment.

Both A1 and Pegasos are NOT closed, it is the OSes that are, and
Genesi atleast haven't ruled out selling MorphOS shrink-wrapped for
A1 or Mac.

What a minute...  Genesi has not made clear their licensing terms.  We do not know if Genesi will require you to purchase a Pegasos in order to obtain MorphOS.  We do not know if MorphOS will ever be released as a retail product.

As to whether or not Hyperion said AOS4 has run on a Mac or Pegasos; has no bearing on whether it will be made commercially available of either platform.  It's a possibility, not a certainty.

I can't say whether Dave_P is lying when he says that Genesi told him they would not allow MorphOS to be unbundle or not.  But then again, I haven't seen Genesi sell MorphOS on anything other than the Pegasos.  So, I can only assume that Genesi are backing the same strategy as AI/Hyperion/Eyetech.

BTW, AFAIK, AI/Hyperion haven't ruled out the Pegasos or Mac (alothough Apple may have something to say about this) or any other PPC solution either.  But they have made it clear licensing will be required.

[AmiGR]

What a minute... Genesi has not made clear their licensing terms. We do not know if Genesi will require you to purchase a Pegasos in order to obtain MorphOS. We do not know if MorphOS will ever be released as a retail product.
--

No, many people know and you can ask Genesi if you
want. It will be released as retail, but not yet.

I can't say whether Dave_P is lying when he says that Genesi told him they would not allow MorphOS to be unbundle or not. But then again, I haven't seen Genesi sell MorphOS on anything other than the Pegasos. So, I can only assume that Genesi are backing the same strategy as AI/Hyperion/Eyetech.
--

Wrong, Amiga Inc doesn't let anyone install MorphOS
on a machine with AmigaOS4. Genesi allows dual
booting, they just want MorphOS to be in the package
and/or preinstalled, just like the PC driver CDs that
come with motherboards.

BTW, AFAIK, AI/Hyperion haven't ruled out the Pegasos or Mac (alothough Apple may have something to say about this) or any other PPC solution either. But they have made it clear licensing will be required.

Amiga Inc DID rule them out with their licence scheme.
Do you expect Apple to sign anything with Amiga Inc?
No. So no OS4 for Macs.
Do you expect Genesi to do so? No, they did sign
something like that with A. Inc. once and they've
regret it.

[Alkemyst]

by AmiGR on 2003/1/12 22:04:46

You was in the plural number.

And about not seeing the other side... I was in that
side for A LONG time... I know what happens and
that's why I'm not an A Inc fanatic anymore. Yes, I
was at some time. I support the Pegasos and
MorphOS and I'll support OS4 but I'll never support
Amiga Inc again.

Plural does not mean everyone. Everyone means everyone. you need to touch up on your understanding of English.
Other side does not mean plural either, cos the other side could be just one person.

There are 2 teams in a foot ball match 1 English the other German.
It does not mean that all other sides are German teams does it.

[AmiGR]

Plural does not mean everyone. Everyone means everyone. you need to touch up on your understanding of English.
Other side does not mean plural either, cos the other side could be just one person.
--

In the specific case it is NOT one person. It's a whole
bunch. You meant the whole bunch.  You could very
well be "you people".
It's right grammatically, but my mistake is not that not everybody does this.
Sorry about that, it's my mistake.

[Alkemyst]

In the specific case it is NOT one person. It's a whole
bunch. You meant the whole bunch. You could very
well be "you people".
It's right grammatically, but my mistake is not that not everybody does this.
Sorry about that, it's my mistake./

Yes a Whole bunch of PPL does not include everyone.

I'd just like to say i for one dont 'worship' any of these companies...and when Genesi does something stupid I'll come down on them... I have pointed out stupid things they have done in the past...and I will in the future... but this grouping all non-believers into one group as MOS users is pretty pathetic...