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guest11527

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Re: Matzes a1k.org Graphics Adapter...
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2016, 06:02:25 PM »
Quote from: grond;808237
Probably a case of copyright paranoia. They didn't pay any picasso license, did they? :lol:

You as "correspondence degree attorney" should probably know that copyright is nothing to laugh about, and that it requires a more careful background check to understand the situation in total.  

It is in this particular case not quite the same as for the Apollo and the rights (or lack thereof) on the driver development package of P96 is derived (or supposed to be derived) from a completely different route - in particular, it is not derived from the UAE driver. In the end, I cannot give a complete legal waterproof argument what is correct and what is not (I do not have any degree in this field, just what I need in my daily work), but at least I talked to many people on this issue (for this card, and for the Apollo) to get a better picture of where we are. It's not really that easy, and the two cases are not identical.
 

Offline grond

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Re: Matzes a1k.org Graphics Adapter...
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2016, 11:00:47 AM »
Ha, sure it's not the same case. It's exploiting the license somebody else paid for. Not sure why that is morally any better than writing a driver without using any licensed material and relying on the shareware model the picasso authors offer. Wait a moment, that sounds less legitimate than what apollo did but somehow there is no public uproar about it...
 

guest11527

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Re: Matzes a1k.org Graphics Adapter...
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2016, 11:43:21 AM »
Quote from: grond;808318
Ha, sure it's not the same case. It's exploiting the license somebody else paid for. Not sure why that is morally any better than writing a driver without using any licensed material and relying on the shareware model the picasso authors offer. Wait a moment, that sounds less legitimate than what apollo did but somehow there is no public uproar about it...

See? That's precisely why I say that you haven't done your job properly. Background check. You speculate where you should *know*. Copyright is not a matter of speculation.

Actually, I talked to Alex on this matter, and with the makers of said graphics card. So here are some hard facts (not speculations):

First, the license model for P96 is not what you think what it is. There is no "shareware fee" for graphic card drivers. There is a shareware fee for the existing "old stock" graphics card drivers that come with P96, i.e. what you find in the archive of P96 (cards such as the GVP Spectrum). These drivers can be registered for a shareware fee from the owners of P96 - which are at this time still Tobias and Alex.

Second, if you develop a new graphics card, such a shareware fee does not apply. You need to negotiate and obtain a license. Village Tronic did exactly that, and for this reason, owners of such cards can use P96 for free - it was already paid for, and the license fee for the development kit and the graphics card driver was paid for by the corresponding hardware vendor.

Gunnar always expressed the believe that it is sufficient of users register the Apollo driver for a shareware fee, but that's not the case. There is no possibility to write a new driver and let users register. The vendor has to. Yes, Apollo need to get a license from Tobias and Alex, and yes, I did check with them. That's the opinion of the authors and owners, and not based on some second guessing or sloppy background checking.

Third, Cloanto does not hold a license for P96 at this point either. They paid Tobias and Alex a "lump sum" on a good will basis for "missed income", but there is no contract, and there is no "perpetual license agreement" between them. So in that sense, the UAE driver seems to be in legal limbo as well.

How did this driver come into living: Alex shared some details on the P96 internals with Brian King, who, however, neither obtained a license from Tobias and Alex. Whether the file in question (the UAE picasso96.c file and the corresponding header) is under GPL is a very delicate question as well. The header says "Copyright Brian King", but it does not say what the license conditions are. So it's probably shared "as is", for the single purpose to be used within UAE. A GPL header is missing, and it is arguably whether you can derive from that that the author provided the source under GPL. Given that there is no license on the corresponding header (which is close to the copy of the picasso96 private includes header), and that there is no licensing agreement between Brian and Alex, this is probably not very surprising. In particular, as far as *I* read it, it does not grant anyone any rights to use this driver outside of UAE.

As far as the licenses for this graphics card is derived: This came from a completely different route and goes back to another private agreement with Alex, by email. It is not derived from an UAE driver, or somebody elses work. It was based on "let's simply ask and see what we get". This is probably good enough to get away with for a hobby project, whether this is all sufficient for commercial development I do not know.

So in the end, I really wonder how seriously you take your job, and how easily you defend your position without having done your homework. I tried my very best to research the backgrounds here, and my research method is the most basic one I can recommend to everyone else: Why not simply ask the people that should know? For example, the authors.
 

Offline grond

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Re: Matzes a1k.org Graphics Adapter...
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2016, 11:58:47 AM »
Interesting claims, alas unsubstantiated. Let's quote the readme of picasso96.lha uploaded by Tobias Abt himself for some facts:

"Picasso96 is ShareWare. Requested fee US$20 or DM30, free to use for PicassoIV and Pixel64 users (the manufacturers of those cards already paid for these licences) and the really few ones that already have sent us a donation."

Clearly Picasso96 is shareware for users. I don't see anything about any fees for people who write additional drivers. And why should I not be allowed to write any software of my own and publish it? I'm also allowed to build LEGO bricks compatible with the original LEGO bricks and sell them (there is a long history of LEGO case law). If I want to have my driver included with the original package, yes, that's something for which the authors could demand a license fee.

Making a card compatible to the two cards mentioned in the readme and exploiting the licenses that were paid for the two original cards seems to be an anticompetitive action but I'm pretty sure the original license hold won't mind. And if the picasso right owners don't mind, who would?
 

guest11527

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Re: Matzes a1k.org Graphics Adapter...
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2016, 01:04:01 PM »
Quote from: grond;808322
I "Picasso96 is ShareWare. Requested fee US$20 or DM30, free to use for PicassoIV and Pixel64 users (the manufacturers of those cards already paid for these licences) and the really few ones that already have sent us a donation."
And this package is shareware indeed. The DDK is not, and never was. So, instead of guessing, or reading something you'd like to read into a license agreement that does not apply to your form of usage, why not simply talk to the people that should know - the owners?

You try to wiggle around your obligations instead of clarifying the situation. You really should know better how this works.  
Quote from: grond;808322
I don't see anything about any fees for people who write additional drivers.  
Indeed not, because the package does not include the driver API or licenses for it. Which means that you simply don't have rights there. Unless you negotiate. That's how the things work - just because a package doesn't say something means that it is free access.  
Quote from: grond;808322
And why should I not be allowed to write any software of my own and publish it?  
This is not about "writing your own software". It's not a "free standing software" we're talking about which, of course, you can do. Your software requires interfacing to a non-public API for which a development kit exists which you need to license. Again, you're talking to the wrong guy here. If you want to understand the legal situation, ask the owners.  
Quote from: grond;808322
I'm also allowed to build LEGO bricks compatible with the original LEGO bricks and sell them (there is a long history of LEGO case law). If I want to have my driver included with the original package, yes, that's something for which the authors could demand a license fee.
P96 is a bit more than a LEGO brick. It is a complete RTG system, a substantial requirement for your work to be useful. C'mon, this is not a comparable case.  
Quote from: grond;808322
Making a card compatible to the two cards mentioned in the readme and exploiting the licenses that were paid for the two original cards seems to be an anticompetitive action but I'm pretty sure the original license hold won't mind. And if the picasso right owners don't mind, who would?

Actually, they *do mind*, feel ensured. Alex made a pretty clear statement what he thinks about your activity, without any possibility to misinterpret it by my side.

They just don't have enough financial backing to go to court, which currently safes your neck. But that's as far as it goes.

Before I forget: No, the licenses on this graphics card are not derived from "because it is compatible". You should have read my post more carefully.
 

Offline grond

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Re: Matzes a1k.org Graphics Adapter...
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2016, 01:59:00 PM »
Well, the DDK was not used for writing the vampire driver. The driver was written and is maintained by Jason McMullan who never had any access to the DDK. While we are very happy about his contributions, he isn't even part of apollo or vampire.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Matzes a1k.org Graphics Adapter...
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2016, 02:11:24 PM »
If the P96 authors care so much, it is about damn time they start _do_ something, and not just whine about it. Lawsuits already!
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Offline wawrzon

Re: Matzes a1k.org Graphics Adapter...
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2016, 02:18:56 PM »
with no public first hand statements, and all but hearsay and guessing, p96 ecosystem will always be a legal burden or at least a can of worms, as much as so called "amiga os" or whatever kickstart. such entities of uncertain status should simply be avoided, and replaced by open alternatives, but since people fail to cooperate on such solutions and simply prefer to continue the way of least resistance at least as long as not seriously threatened, noting will change about it, whether we discuss it or not.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Matzes a1k.org Graphics Adapter...
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2016, 02:36:40 PM »
There is more pleasure to be found in bitching about it than settling it once and for all. Various similar court cases that have been settled suggest that P96 authors have very little legal ground to stand on when it comes to third party drivers made simply by studying how their own drivers function and operate. They can be unhappy and whine about it by proxy as much as they want, but it only puts themselves in a bad light.

Instead of all this mindboggling nonsense, they _could_ have chosen a different route, to be supportive, to open up P96 for anyone to use and develp for, and set up a donation account for people who simply want to show their gratitude. They could chose to become "good guys" in Amiga world and even make some money from it. But nah, that would mean changing attitude, and if there is one thing old grumpy amiga developers are not good at, it is changing attitudes.
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Offline OlafS3

Re: Matzes a1k.org Graphics Adapter...
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2016, 03:37:35 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;808326
And this package is shareware indeed. The DDK is not, and never was. So, instead of guessing, or reading something you'd like to read into a license agreement that does not apply to your form of usage, why not simply talk to the people that should know - the owners?

You try to wiggle around your obligations instead of clarifying the situation. You really should know better how this works.   Indeed not, because the package does not include the driver API or licenses for it. Which means that you simply don't have rights there. Unless you negotiate. That's how the things work - just because a package doesn't say something means that it is free access.    This is not about "writing your own software". It's not a "free standing software" we're talking about which, of course, you can do. Your software requires interfacing to a non-public API for which a development kit exists which you need to license. Again, you're talking to the wrong guy here. If you want to understand the legal situation, ask the owners.   P96 is a bit more than a LEGO brick. It is a complete RTG system, a substantial requirement for your work to be useful. C'mon, this is not a comparable case.  

Actually, they *do mind*, feel ensured. Alex made a pretty clear statement what he thinks about your activity, without any possibility to misinterpret it by my side.

They just don't have enough financial backing to go to court, which currently safes your neck. But that's as far as it goes.

Before I forget: No, the licenses on this graphics card are not derived from "because it is compatible". You should have read my post more carefully.

I cannot make any judgements about the legal situation on certain Amiga APIs and drivers (mostly it was a legal mess back in the time) but looking at certain forum discussions from "real world" it is a little weird... noone outsides cares about anymore for a long time and here people make lengthy discussions about it
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 03:41:04 PM by OlafS3 »
 

guest11527

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Re: Matzes a1k.org Graphics Adapter...
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2016, 06:18:35 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;808337
I cannot make any judgements about the legal situation on certain Amiga APIs and drivers (mostly it was a legal mess back in the time) but looking at certain forum discussions from "real world" it is a little weird... noone outsides cares about anymore for a long time and here people make lengthy discussions about it

Well, there's a quite a difference between "I just want to play with it for my private pleasure" and "I'm running a project and earn some money". When it comes to copyright, owners are usually forgiving as far as the first type of activity goes - simply because there's nothing to loose anyhow. In the second case, of course, all trouble begins.

Amiga has been - in the last years - mostly a type of activity of the first kind. Strangely enough (or wonderfully enough) it has migrated into some retro type activity which makes some people believe again that their work has some value (larger than zero, that is). Without any doubt, Vampire has a value (people are paying for it) and this graphics card also has a value (people are again paying for it).

What I do not understand is the average attitute here that "oh well, I pay for the hardware because I want it", but "software is worthless, I don't care, let's just steal what I need".  

A lot of work went into P96, probably at least as many work hours that went into the vampire, and I believe it's just fair to return something to those that made P96 possible.

Anyhow, I also have reasons to believe that all this trouble might probably go away soon anyhow, and the situation will likely clear up in the near future. There *is* still some good will in this universe, besides what many people believe, and despite that people just try to ignore authors rights and the many work hours they spend in projects.

All I'm asking for is just pay a little bit more respect to those that made the software and hardware you use.
 

Offline grond

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Re: Matzes a1k.org Graphics Adapter...
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2016, 06:47:57 PM »
Actually the work and skill that went into picasso is respected  a lot. How much would they want to release all picasso sources under the GPL?
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Matzes a1k.org Graphics Adapter...
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2016, 08:08:21 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;808340

What I do not understand is the average attitute here that "oh well, I pay for the hardware because I want it", but "software is worthless, I don't care, let's just steal what I need".  

A lot of work went into P96, probably at least as many work hours that went into the vampire, and I believe it's just fair to return something to those that made P96 possible.

Anyhow, I also have reasons to believe that all this trouble might probably go away soon anyhow, and the situation will likely clear up in the near future. There *is* still some good will in this universe, besides what many people believe, and despite that people just try to ignore authors rights and the many work hours they spend in projects.

All I'm asking for is just pay a little bit more respect to those that made the software and hardware you use.


as far as i gather unlikely other cases we are talking here, with the vampire there was a will and approach to honour the developers. in monetary terms. however it looks like someone stepped in between and broke the deal. the developers do not comment on the situation. all we are given are your vague suggestions. so i dont understand properly what you expect to happen now?
 

Offline Acill

Re: Matzes a1k.org Graphics Adapter...
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2016, 08:40:09 PM »
Why is it every time someone want to improve and give great hardware the developers of an outdated system cry foul? When was the last time P96 was even updated, I think the last version was released in like the late 90's? People don't release new cards for Amiga because of this stupid crap. Open up a damn donation site and start allowing others to pay them. Its that simple. If they write an update, charge for it. How hard is that to understand?

We have so many examples of people wanting to pay for software and new hardware on the Amiga platforms and just as many examples of developers not allowing for a way to pay them or worse yet they ignore customers wanting to pay.
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Offline wawrzon

Re: Matzes a1k.org Graphics Adapter...
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2016, 09:24:38 PM »
reminds me of a guy who offered another a can of fixative in my first semester in the art school. the other refused. i dont do business with bonkers like you, he said, either you will give me it for free or you will demand my life for it. one thing you will never accept is a reasonable reward.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Matzes a1k.org Graphics Adapter...
« Reply #44 from previous page: May 13, 2016, 09:19:47 AM »
Quote from: Acill;808344
Why is it every time someone want to improve and give great hardware the developers of an outdated system cry foul? When was the last time P96 was even updated, I think the last version was released in like the late 90's? People don't release new cards for Amiga because of this stupid crap. Open up a damn donation site and start allowing others to pay them. Its that simple. If they write an update, charge for it. How hard is that to understand?

We have so many examples of people wanting to pay for software and new hardware on the Amiga platforms and just as many examples of developers not allowing for a way to pay them or worse yet they ignore customers wanting to pay.

Simply because it is easy money. They are not interested anymore and will not invest any time in it and do not care about amiga anymore but when you get money from something that was wortless before just by requesting then you do it... that lack of common sense partly killed the platform because it was typical for most members of the community with everyone sueing everyone