Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: ple3003 on January 09, 2003, 06:59:33 PM
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I read this article while browsing for news about the AmigaOne / Pegasos. osOpinion link... (http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/18156.html)
Thought about it for a while. How many of you would really use a pirated version of AOS4? I know i wouldn't because i want to be supportive to the Amiga community. But i guess i do not represent the Amiga community, as i just recently bought a Peg. (ATTENTION everyone, NOT trying to light the flame wars again...) but does that really matter, just as other POP owners might wanna use AOS4 on their PPC-Boards...
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yep the article makes sense..I wouldnt pirate OS4 either.
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@ple3003
The Aone/Pegasos are not POP.
And what you said about Aos4 could be turned on its head & said about MOS.
MOS only runs on Pegasos & Amiga PPC cards
AOS4 only runs on Aone & Amiga PPC cards.
Until either run on Hardware that is not there own Both are as closed as each other.
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The ways of Amiga inc. are truly strange.
I suppose they must have a bigger purpose, but what it is is difficult to understand (for me, anyway).
Sincerely,
-Kenneth Straarup.
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That article is serious flamebait. It's like going into comp.sys.amiga.advocacy and asking "what makes the Amiga so special".
It may be a sucky idea to some people that dongle'izing the A1 hardware so that OS4 won't run on non-official Amiga hardware, but at the end of the day, Apple made the same kind of decision (stopping the Mac clone market), which may have been for better or worse for it. Yes, it would be more convenient for consumers to have a greater choice, but [generally, heh :-)] business produce products to make money.
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@alkemyst
You got me there...
But i think you understand my arguments thoug.
Of course i want MOS to run on A1 bords as well.
Did you by the way check out the barbie ppc-board?
If not - Barbie POP (http://penguinppc.org/dev/pop/)
Dual Gigabit LAN, IDE-RAID and all of that! like it :-D
The downside is probably no MOS/AOS4 to go with it. doh!
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Another thing - the Amiga community [generally] have got used to the idea of supporting companies/products by paying for them, but would the Amiga community have had this opinion if Commodore had continued success to the present day?
Helping a company whose products you like survive, because you know they need all the money they can get is one thing. Helping a company who haven't had those kinds of problems so badly with your money isn't such a high priority though, is it?
NB: I would pay for Amiga software if I used it for >30 days and liked it. Which I have done :-)
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People keep on about the OS4 dongle, but when you think about it, even without the "dongle code" OS4 is still tied to certain hardware. How? Drivers.
When you think about it, the only reason Windows appears to be able to run on any X86 board is because Windows has basic drivers for most motherboard hardware, ether by themselfes or supplied by the H/W manufacture.
Unless someone makes a board that is identical in everyway to Eytech's AmigaONE, OS4 still wouldn't run on it. Unless either they make the drivers or Hyperion do.
I am not saying the dongle is a good idea or a bad one (although I do think companies do have a right to protect their time and effort), but given the very few PPC mobos around at the moment (that average Joe can buy) it is hardly worth worrying about. And as someone said, Apple seem to be doing resonable well in a closed h/w market, why can't we too? Time will tell. ;-)
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Yeah, well, I'm sure most of us wouldn't pirate any Amiga software at all, yet to say it doesn't happen would be naive.
- Mike
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@Alke - myst
You fail to mention however that A - Inc's dongle
is primarily what prevents OS4 from operating on the
Pegasos, and they are the ones forcing a license. It's not
exactly an even comparison, but I do understand your
reasoning.
The drivers wouldn't be as much of an issue, IMO.
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I think some people are mixing things:
1-.The AmigaOne isn`t closed at all,hence you can run linux on it.
Also you can buy one without OS4,on wich you can run whatever you
want as long as it is supported.
2-.The "dongled one "really is the OS4,that you cannot run if you not
buys one AmigaOne,unless you buy another specific version like Cyberstorm one.
if you want to run OS4 then you need a cyberstorm Amiga or AmigaOne PPC board;
(maybe a pegasos/other ppc boards in the future).That is you Buy OS4 with AmigaOne,
not AmigaOne with OS4.
my point of view.
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@ D
You fail to see that its not just what you see.
As MOS does not run on the Aone yet either.
The primarily reason is Genesi.
so for Aos4 not running on Pegasos its the license.
For MOS not running on Aone its Genesi.
Different methods same out come.
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i (we) cant wait for os4!!!
pros to buying and not stealing:
1.you support the developer and encourage future effort
2.registered users recieve cheap/free upgrades/date
3.meddled-with software becomes burdened unstable unreliable (especially ignorant/amature cracks)
these are only the selfish reasons- all besides the fact that it is wrong and appropriately punishable by law
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MOS/Genesi aside... if AOS where released to run on any POP based boards... it'd run on Barbie and the Pegasos... and we'd have more choices 'US" the consumers would... wich would be better... I would buy a Barbie or a Pegasos and use that with AOS4..and be happy... as is I'll stick to MOS on the Pegasos.. they totally lost customers who dont want to buy the A1... like me...I dont want the A1 to me it looks shoddy (my opinon) and I dont want to spend good money on a shoddy board I could get cheaper in exactly the same form without their rom... hopefully MOS will make its way onto barbie and we will have even more hardware (we bieng the MOS users)..
if/when later incarnations of the AmigaOne come out that look (in my opinon) comparable to barbie/pegasos then I'll get one. and run AOS4...
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There is NO POP board to buy for home use.
So it dont matter if its MOS or Aos4.
None will run on just any mobo with out drivers & new Hal.
There is no standard PPC platform yet.
This not PC land where a standard has been set.
HO & why is it always Genesi/MOS aside with you.
Maybe cos you bought a Pegasos/MOS.
They can do what they want cos you bought from them.
But Aos4 has to go by your rules.
You dont ask for MOS to run on all PPC mobo's
You dont ask for MOSx86.
But you ask the other side Aos4 to take all the risk.
If Aos4 fails by talking all the risks at least you got MOS to fall back on.
You dont want MOS that you bought to take a risk.
& how many times have you been told this Mips_Proc.
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Woohey, back online after the holidays, and the same old same old is still being thrown around! :)
mikeymike wrote:
That article is serious flamebait. It's like going into comp.sys.amiga.advocacy and asking "what makes the Amiga so special".
You mean "I disagree with that article", right? ;)
It may be a sucky idea to some people that dongle'izing the A1 hardware so that OS4 won't run on non-official Amiga hardware, but at the end of the day, Apple made the same kind of decision (stopping the Mac clone market), which may have been for better or worse for it. Yes, it would be more convenient for consumers to have a greater choice, but [generally, heh :-)] business produce products to make money.
Not the old "MacOS only runs on Macs" again, please!
The Apple situation is totally different from this. Apple is essentially a hardware company. They make a living on selling computers. However sucky it might be for consumers who are only interested in MacOS, it is quite understandable and makes sense business-wise for Apple to prohibit MacOS from running anywhere else than on Apple Macs.
For some strange reason somebody brought up MorphOS and the Pegasos. Even though Genesi/Thendic/whatever several times have stated that they want MorphOS on more hardware than the Pegasos, they're still similar to Apple in this respect. They make and sell their own hardware and OS.
Amiga, Inc. is not a hardware company. AmigaOS depends on availability of and compatibility with third party hardware. Restricting what hardware "their" product, AmigaOS, will run on and from whom AmigaOS customers are allowed to buy that hardware does NOT make sense business-wise. It's painfully counterproductive and it's limiting and marginalising the AmigaOS product.
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@Seehund
How many Business have you run .
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MOS/Genesi aside... if AOS where released to run on any POP based boards... it'd run on Barbie and the Pegasos... and we'd have more choices 'US" the consumers would...
Yes. I am all about choice. I do not want to be forced to buy from 1 vendor. POP for all PPC OS's is the smartest way to go IMO. I buy 1 machine and run 3 or more OS's, OS4, Linux, OS X, BeOS and maybe Morph. I like variety, tinker with one, get a little board switch and tinker with another.
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jumpship wrote:
People keep on about the OS4 dongle, but when you think about it, even without the "dongle code" OS4 is still tied to certain hardware. How? Drivers.
Well, of course! That's pretty damn self-evident, no?
Where did you see people objecting to software not automagically running on any hardware you can throw at it?
The licensing/dongling/bundling requirement does however not have anything to do with TECHNICAL reasons. It's an additional restriction on top of the valid technical reasons, and it helps preventing the OS to be ported to more hardware in the first place.
When you think about it, the only reason Windows appears to be able to run on any X86 board is because Windows has basic drivers for most motherboard hardware, ether by themselfes or supplied by the H/W manufacture.
But who's arguing for AmigaOS to run on "any" PPC board?
I'm arguing against imposing additional restrictions that are technically irrelevant, but yet will stop technical issues from even being considered.
Unless someone makes a board that is identical in everyway to Eytech's AmigaONE, OS4 still wouldn't run on it. Unless either they make the drivers or Hyperion do.
Huh? It's not like Eyetech is or ever has been the only distributor of Teron boards.
Then again it doesn't matter if the driver/HAL writing would only take 5 minutes by one single guy. Unless the hardware is sold licensed, bundled and dongled by a licensed vendor, AmigaOS will never run on it. Not legally and payed for, anyway, only pirates would benefit from this.
To take the specific Teron/"AmigaOne" example, I can currently buy a Teron board from Eyetech, Terra Soft, Inguard or Mai themselves. Just where is the commercial benefit for AmigaOS, AI and Hyperion in only allowing AmigaOS to be sold bundled with Teron boards from Eyetech? It's bad for AmigaOS, it's bad for AI (unless they're making HUGE money on selling hardware licenses...), it's bad for Hyperion and it's bad for the consumers.
I am not saying the dongle is a good idea or a bad one (although I do think companies do have a right to protect their time and effort), but given the very few PPC mobos around at the moment (that average Joe can buy) it is hardly worth worrying about. And as someone said, Apple seem to be doing resonable well in a closed h/w market, why can't we too? Time will tell. ;-)
Amiga, Inc. and Hyperion are not "protecing their time and efforts" by this. They just made the sales and market penetration of "all future versions of AmigaOS" dependent on simultaneous sales of licensed hardware. The only thing that's protected is the marketshare of one third party hardware distributor, and that's probably only in the short run. When the few faithful have bought their dongled Teron boards via this distributor, then what?
And again, any comparison of AI/Hyperion with Apple in this respect is irrelevant.
There are no more Amigas, I don't want a new Amiga (unless it's cheaper and better than what everyone else on the consumer hardware market can come up with, although this won't/can't happen, but even then I'd like options). I want to buy AmigaOS. Who sells me what hardware is none of the software producers' concern.
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Seehund wrote:
The licensing/dongling/bundling requirement does however not have anything to do with TECHNICAL reasons. It's an additional restriction on top of the valid technical reasons, and it helps preventing the OS to be ported to more hardware in the first place.
Despite that I have disputed this argument of yours at several occasions, you keep repeating it like a mantra as if it would somehow make it happen. Once more, dispute this if you can:
1. Anyone can make any PPC hardware officially supported AmigaOS4 hardware by simply applying for a license and sharing a developer board and/or as extensive as possible hardware documentation. Hyperion will then create the neccessary hardware drivers, HAL and AmigaOS4 ROM. Compare that with Apple's approach if you like.
2. The ONLY thing preventing AmigaOS4 from running on basicly any PPC hardware is if Hyperion has for some reason no access to the hardware nor proper hardware documentation and therefore cannot make it happen even if they wanted to. An example of this is the Pegasos, they even applied for a developer board themselves but has still not as of today recieved one, AFAIK. You see, even though some of the chipsets are the same as the AmigaOne, the Pegasos obviously has a different design. For this reason Hyperion cannot and will not guarantee interoperability with their OS which is fully understandable, don't you think?
3. Hyperion are very much willing to support as much hardware as possible and is actually using this licensing scheme for preventing the OS to be restricted at a technical level. An example of this approach is the old PPC accelerator boards from Phase5; despite having no contact with the original manufacturers, very poor documentation, probable reduction of AmigaOne sales, very custom and different hardware design from the one of the AmigaOne, they will be supported by the AmigaOS4. How could this be if it was about restricting the AmigaOS4 to run on the AmigaOne from Eyetech only? Wouldn't this be impossible if the AmigaOS4 was made POP + ArticiaS chipset only?
4. The Microsoft approach of supporting the most common hardware standard and let the hardware manufacturers worry about the rest simply isn't feasible on the PPC market. There is no common PPC hardware standard. No, POP doesn't count as it will still require a common chipset standard. So, I'm sure MAI would be delighted if we made the AmigaOS4 dependant on their ArticiaS chipset but we would still have a very restricted OS. In fact, it would be even more restricted and give the us even less hardware options.
Now stop this blatant trolling of yours, Seehund. It's opposing your own cause regardless if you were to be right or not since this kind of trolling all over the web will only make users turn away from the platform rather than supporting you. I understand that it might be hard for you to admitt that you are wrong now since you've raised this witch hunt/poll against Amiga Inc. and all. But please, atleast tone down a bit rather than making such a fool out of yourself.
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Who really is going to pay high prices for a TeronCX board then pirate OS4? madness
OS4 will be pirated but i would say the PPC card version the most, give it a few days/week after it is released before a ISO is uploaded to warez sites.
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BTW, please not that this article at OSopinion.com is written by Emanuel Mair, A.K.A Seehund. There is similar articles on Slashdot and OSNews, all by the very same author.
This kind of publicity will surely boost the Amiga comeback, now won't it? Well, that was irony on my behalf, I really do think that if something will kill the Amiga, then it is this kind of FUD mongering by people that don't even know what's best for themselves. :roll:
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It doesn't really matter what these companies think or do. Both OSs will be running on both motherboards fairly soon after they're released. If the companies don't provide the software or hardware "unbundled," then they'll miss out on some sales. But their cooperation is irrelevant to what people end up doing with these things.
Even at the height of Apple's undocumented-hardware days, people had not only Linux but also QNX (verified) and probably BeOS (in-house, unofficially) running on its g3s. It's just the nature of the market. So it's less a matter of "shall we let these OSs on our hardware?" as "shall we sanction these OSs on our hardware and get some sales from it?"
The OS company can either go the route of guaranteeing compatibility (Amiga/Hyperion's present course) or just sell shrinkwrapped boxes with a disclaimer about use on untested boards.
The trouble is, this approach would totally cut Eyetech out of the equation. Eyetech was instrumental at one point, but now has become redundant with Teron boards available from other sources. But to protect Eyetech's position, Amiga and Hyperion have gone along with the dongle scheme. This was probably a contractual condition of the initial agreement of the three companies to produce a PPC port and hardware to run it on.
Genesi also has things to protect; with an operating system of its own to promote, they're probably in no hurry to do anything that will assist Amiga. Maybe after the dust settles following the market introduction of both groups' products, it'll be more clear what the possibilities are, if any, for cooperation for mutual benefit. But for now, everybody's thinking their own path is the best one.
-- gary_c
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Even at the height of Apple's undocumented-hardware days, people had not only Linux but also QNX (verified) and probably BeOS (in-house, unofficially) running on its g3s.
Well, that's probably because they atleast had access to the hardware. When it comes to the AmigaOS4 on the Pegasos situation, Hyperion never recieved a developer board despite applying for one. So, in this case it's quite impossible for them to make anything run on it, don't you agree?
Also, I'm not sure wether I agree with the "for protecting Eyetech's position" thing, but the rest of your post was surely words of wisdom, gary_c. :-)
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don't forget Elbox's SharkPPC boards guys. They are liscenced by AI, and will run os4.0.
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mips_proc wrote:
... if AOS where released to run on any POP based boards... it'd run on Barbie and the Pegasos... and we'd have more choices 'US" the consumers would... wich would be better... I would buy a Barbie or a Pegasos and use that with AOS4..and be happy... quote]
I'm confused... If I buy MorphOS what choices of hardware do I have?
I'm also really confused on this Genesi thing...is this now a combined company of Thendic and bPlan?? If so I wouldn't believe that they would want MorphOS to run on a bunch of other hardware after all the money they haved dropped on the Pegasos. Seems like they would be shooting themselves in the foot.
AmigaGuy
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@amigahal
You're right, I'm sorry. It's just so easy to forget about that option since there has been little progress shown on their behalf lately. But you're right, it should definitly be taken into consideration since this would also be impossible if we made the AmigaOS4 ArticiaS chipset based only.
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this approach would totally cut Eyetech out of the equation
and
But to protect Eyetech's position
I agree with that, why let Amiga users buy cheap hardware from any computer shops and buy the OS seperate when you can force them to go to certain amiga shops and pay top price,
Not a bad scam if you look at the whole picture.
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Alkemyst wrote:
@ple3003
The Aone/Pegasos are not POP.
Excuse me? Mai themselves have confirmed these boards, along with the Terrasoft board, are all POP boards.
"In the mid-to-late '90s, Apple, IBM, and Motorola worked toward a PowerPC Common Hardware Reference Platform (CHRP). In 2000 IBM released complete board specs and a generic design for this platform, known as 'POP' (PowerPC Open Platform). Mai Logic's Teron series boards and logic are designed from the IBM specifications" (reprinted without permission)
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Not a bad scam if you look at the whole picture.
I didn't think I would have to go into this as well but since you couldn't restrain yourself from cooking up this lame conspiracy theory, I simply have to.
The only reason for a price difference (if any) is the OS. Yes, you won't get the AmigaOS4 for free, if that's what you expected. There are more issues involved such as preparing the hardware ROM, distribution to Amiga hardware dealers, product demand, providing Hyperion and other important AmigaOne software developers with developer boards, providing hardware support for AmigaOS4 and LinuxPPC users and developers, etc. All of these things costs and affect the price.
Also, you're scam theory doesn't even make sense. I mean, how much do you really think they will be making on the AmigaOne sales? You see, I don't even think this whole thing will be profitable for Eyetech even if they were adding to the price. It will cover their costs, tops. Besides, do you really think another distributor would give you the same hardware support for AmigaOS4 and/or LinuxPPC + UAE users?
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@T_Bone
URL pls
Plus any alteration from IBM POP may make the modo non POP compliant + the ref was old.
Pegasos has custom parts.
Aone has had alterations as well that were not part of the Ref.
The fact is you can use as much or as little of the Ref as you want.
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Who cares about if it was based on the POP reference design or not? You still need a firmware and chipset standard in order to have a complete hardware platform standard with only one HAL for all motherboards complying to that standard.
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@Alkemyst wrote:
> URL pls
Like I said in the quote, it was reprinted without permission, however it is quite public knowledge, and Mai should be able to clear up this concern for you with a simple email. Failing that, you could get ahold of their SDK where I quoted from.
> Plus any alteration from IBM POP may make the
> modo non POP compliant + the ref was old.
Irrelevant, Mai has confirmed already that this isn't the case here, so has terrasoft, so have the authors of the linux modules for the Mai chipset support (which BTW work unmodified on all Mai chipset boards). The reference doesn't "age" as it's not a set of "standards" as much as it is an architecture.
> Pegasos has custom parts.
irrelevant, as these parts are not the chipset, and appear on the other side of the PCI-CPU bridge, it doesn't invalidate the 'architecture standard" of the board any more than plugging in a PCI card does. All the add-ons on the AmigaOne and the Pegasos are bus-isolated from the chipset. that's what busses are for. it wouldn't be very handy if adding soundcards and videocards to PCI slots changed the architecture of the board somehow, would it? :)
> Aone has had alterations as well that were not part of the Ref.
Look, the same comment from above applies here. This isn't a constructive arguement, because what you've chosen to put forth as fact is not only innacurate, but completely made up. No offense, but that's the case. All current production Mai chipset boards are POP boards. Don't take my word for it, ask Ross Heinlein, who tasked himself with ensuring that the Linux PPC modules for the POP boards were well tested on all Mai chipset based boards. Make no mistake, these are all POP boards, no matter what soundcard or video you integrate on the board, they are still isolated by virtue of being bus-based, and don't interfere with POP standards as you suggest.
if you'd like to discuss wether AmigaOS4 should be open or not, that's another story, as that's your or my opinion, however the AmigaOne is a POP board, there is no opinion involved here and there's nothing to dispute.
Just out of curiosity, did someone happen to "tell" you that the A1 isn't a POP board, or did you decide this on your own? I'm just sort of curious where this started, as rumors like that might happen to hurt Eyetech if they decide to compete with Terrasoft on sales of PPC linux boards, and I wouldn't want to see anything like that happen unfairly. You know how bad these places can be with rumors.
As for the rest of the debate, I'm staying out of it =) I only posted because of the "not a POP board" comment.
:-P
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@samface wrote:
> Who cares about if it was based on the POP
> reference design or not?
That was the whole issue I replied to, I won't get into the larger debate, but felt I did need to correct the POP comment.
> You still need a firmware and chipset standard in
> order to have a complete hardware platform
> standard with only one HAL for all motherboards
> complying to that standard.
This is already the case, actually. Thank god too, because that's what allows linux to run with the same modules and drivers on all current Mai chipset based boards. Linux would have been a nightmare to make work if all the Mai based boards required a separate HAL for every flavor. Thank god that's not the case.
Granted it's possible to manufacture a board that is NOT POP compliant that uses the Mai chipset, however nobody has done so yet. (It wouldn't make much sense to do so anyway, as you wouldn't be able to run the current Linux distros on it)
I'm not going to get involved with the license issue discussion, as it's pretty much a done deal, for better or worse, but as far as the "Open hardware" goes, the AmigaOne IS open hardware, it's just the OS that's closed, (for better or worse).
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samface wrote:
Seehund wrote:
The licensing/dongling/bundling requirement does however not have anything to do with TECHNICAL reasons. It's an additional restriction on top of the valid technical reasons, and it helps preventing the OS to be ported to more hardware in the first place.
Despite that I have disputed this argument of yours at several occasions
No you haven't, and you didn't address the argument quoted above in this post either.
Once more, dispute this if you can:
1. Anyone can make any PPC hardware officially supported AmigaOS4 hardware by simply applying for a license and sharing a developer board and/or as extensive as possible hardware documentation. Hyperion will then create the neccessary hardware drivers, HAL and AmigaOS4 ROM. Compare that with Apple's approach if you like.
I won't dispute that, and I never have done so. You just described the problem. There is a licensing/bundling/dongling requirement. What's your point?
And again, Apple's approach has nothing to do with this. Apple's livelihood is selling computers. AI's/Hyperion's is not.
2. The ONLY thing preventing AmigaOS4 from running on basicly any PPC hardware is if Hyperion has for some reason no access to the hardware nor proper hardware documentation and therefore cannot make it happen even if they wanted to.
You just contradicted your point #1 above. The licensing/dongling/bundling requirement, remember. Hardware documentation, cooperation from HW developers, ease of porting and all those VALID and RELEVANT issues don't mean squat unless "somebody" also gets himself and his product licensed. Even in the highly unlikely event that this ever happened, AmigaOS would still be limited to running on this new hardware ONLY when it's sold bundled with dongled hardware from a particular vendor or distributor, á la the situation with Teron boards only being allowed for AmigaOS users when sold by Eyetech.
All this naturally goes for any other hardware as well.
An example of this is the Pegasos, they even applied for a developer board themselves but has still not as of today recieved one, AFAIK.
AFAIK(!), Hyperion never actually ordered a board, they filled out this form (http://bplan-gmbh.de/register.html), put online by bplan in December 2001, reporting their preliminary interest in the MorphOS + Pegasos developer's platform.
Read it and you'll note things like "Da nur eine begrenzte Anzahl an Entwicklungssystemen zur Verfügung steht behalten wir uns eine Prüfung der gemachten Angaben vor", "Die Registrierung ist keine Bestellung [there's even a big fat
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samface wrote:
BTW, please not that this article at OSopinion.com is written by Emanuel Mair, A.K.A Seehund. There is similar articles on Slashdot and OSNews, all by the very same author.
Duly noted, thanks for the heads-up! :)
Though there's no Slashdot article by me on this subject.
This kind of publicity will surely boost the Amiga comeback, now won't it?
"The Amiga comeback"? Sigh. The Amiga died in the mid-90's and it's not due for a come back, thank heavens. Where have you been the last decade? ;)
Well, that was irony on my behalf, I really do think that if something will kill the Amiga, then it is this kind of FUD mongering by people that don't even know what's best for themselves. :roll:
LOL. What was it you said? Ah, yes... "But please, atleast tone down a bit rather than making such a fool out of yourself."
(Does nobody know what things like "FUD" (http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/FUD.html)and "troll" (http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/troll.html) mean? No, it's not to be used as soon as one personally happens to disagree with someone else.)
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gary_c wrote:
I agree fully, but:
The OS company can either go the route of guaranteeing compatibility (Amiga/Hyperion's present course) or just sell shrinkwrapped boxes with a disclaimer about use on untested boards.
I don't see those two routes as mutually exclusive.
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@samface
Would you please stop that bullshit !!
Hyperion applied for an developer-board targeted to
MORPHOS_DEVELOPERS !!!
and suprise suprise they didn't get one ...
But when a board was offered to them they started backing out
because of that plain stupid licence.
So it is AIncs own licence whats preventing OS4 from running
on the Pegasos in the fisrt place.
Well that is if OS4 would exist in any form suitable to run on anythiong :-P
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samface wrote:
Not a bad scam if you look at the whole picture.
I also disagree with the "scam" bit. It's not a scam or anything illegal, it's just business. Not necessarily commercially sound business in the long run for Eyetech and it's directly harmful for AmigaOS and its users, but it's not a "scam".
I didn't think I would have to go into this as well but since you couldn't restrain yourself from cooking up this lame conspiracy theory, I simply have to.
:D
I'm sure Paul_Gadd shakes in his boots. :)
Do you always take yourself so seriously?
There are more issues involved such as preparing the hardware ROM,
The dongle-bit? An unnecessary and extra cost.
Unless you're talking about the actual and functional firmware, which is the same on all Teron boards regardless of distributor. I.e. the adaptation of PPCBoot/U-boot and SciTech's x86emu project (adapted by Hyperion, funded by Mai)?
distribution to Amiga hardware dealers,
Which is cheaper than e.g. Terra Soft selling single boards to end users. But it's still more expensive to buy directly from Eyetech bypassing those pesky "Amiga hardware dealers" than it is to buy from Mai or Terra Soft.
product demand,
Ah, exactly. AmigaOS users could otherwise have bought their Teron boards (and whatever future HW there might be) from the same unified market as e.g. Linux users.
== larger volumes, competition, lower prices
providing Hyperion and other important AmigaOne software developers with developer boards,
Selling boards is an income, and don't these boards ship directly from Mai? Would seem to be a pretty awkward arrangement otherwise. What other important Teron software developers are there that must get their boards via Eyetech?
providing hardware support
I.e. the same cost as any other hardware vendor has...
for AmigaOS4 and LinuxPPC users and developers, etc.
Again, the software support should be included in the price of AmigaOS, and I haven't seen any figures saying that the separate copies of OS4 for Amigas will cost way over $100.
Unless Eyetech will sell their own Linux distro, then Linux support is provided by - GASP! - the Linux distro company.
All of these things costs and affect the price.
I don't think Eyetech invented these compulsory licensing ideas only to be able to sell Teron boards more expensively than others. Far more important is a monopoly on hardware for AmigaOS users. A price markup is less valuable than a 100% marketshare.
[Edit]
You also forgot to mention the trademark licensing fee for calling the Teron boards "AmigaOne".
[/Edit]
-
Exactly, Samface. Besides, why should a board manufacturer
allow their hardware to be 'rommed' and bundled with
anything? It's not going to happen...and as far as that
'knowing what's best for them' comment, I don't think
marketing clowns provide the best tech instruction.
-
Despite that I have disputed this argument of yours at several occasions, you keep repeating it like a mantra as if it would somehow make it happen. Once more, dispute this if you can:
just because you dispute something dosent mean its wrong.
-
Well, that's probably because they atleast had access to the hardware. When it comes to the AmigaOS4 on the Pegasos situation, Hyperion never recieved a developer board despite applying for one. So, in this case it's quite impossible for them to make anything run on it, don't you agree?
why dosent hyperion 'buy one' ?... or are they that broke.
-
Alke - myst wrote:
>@D
>You fail to see that its not just what you see.
I don't understand your comment here,
>As MOS does not run on the Aone yet either.
>The primarily reason is Genesi.
Oh, I get it. Could you please provide further
explanation for this one?
>so for Aos4 not running on Pegasos its the license.
Yes?
>For MOS not running on Aone its Genesi.
Once again, further explanation please, but if the
only limitation here is drivers, that's a given
consequence of almost any hardware, and entirely not
comparable with with A - Inc's license idea. Both
systems need drivers, yet OS4 is dongled, and
there's the restriction that I pointed to earlier,
the one that made your original comparision biased.
>Different methods same outcome.
So you must be implying that MOS is somehow inherently
restricted (ala OS4), apart from the eventual drivers?
-
Let just take a little advice from my avatar and lets all quit being so
'negative'.
Sorry Mips I had to see what it looked like.
AmigaGuy
-
Alkemyst wrote:
As MOS does not run on the Aone yet either.
The primarily reason is Genesi.
I believe Genesi staff said MorphOS does run on a Theron motherboard and so it will run on an AmigaOne unless something's been added to prevent it.
-- gary_c
-
Samface wrote:
>The Microsoft approach of supporting the most
>common hardware standard and let the hardware
>manufactures figure out the rest simply isn't
>feasible on the PPC market. There is no common
>PPC hardware standard.
Hmmmm, great point. So shouldn't A - Inc (the
software people) worry more about the adapta-
bility of their OS to these emerging (and
established in some cases) standards as opposed
to forcing their own set of such on a slim
userbase, and demanding other companies to adhere
to their idea of standards? I'd be the
first in the line of I'm sure many to allow a
small software firm (no insult intended) to
dictate and control/limit my hardware products,
that's for sure. It makes perfect business sense,
especially considering the vast throngs of users
imbedded into the current market.
I agree 100%, this market is way to small for the
Microsoft approach.
-
amigaguy cool... I dont mind at all...hehehehee
-
AmigaGuy, nicely done. Perhaps I too shall create
my own twisted version of LX -8...
-
do it do it do it
-
Last one..promise
-
no way the one before this one was alot better.
-
Yeah, this one kinda stinks too. I need to get some sleep...
-
ohhh come on... I thought we where all gonna use knockoff LX-8 avatars.
-
damn...I'll get it up tomorrow at work, these old
ghetto amiga paint programs won't scale or size it
down enough.
-
@gary_c
I already know about that.
But just cos they have been able to run MOS on it,it does not mean they will release it for it.
That would give the Aone an advantage.
-
@ T-Bone
Ofcorse Linux will work across the MAI range.
& so should Aos4, Aone-SE Aone-XE there's 2 already.
But ppl thinking anything saying POP will work cos its a set standard & that was my point.
Look at VHS. SP,LP,ET,SVHS.
if ppl applied their thinking of POP to VHS they would try to run a LP recorded video in a SP only player.
-
@Alkemyst
And that is the difference:
Genesi:
We decide on what HW MorphOS runs [full stop]
AInc/Hyperion:
We decide on what HW OS4 will run, but we gone put the blame
for it on the HW-producers.
a) I don't believe that the licence is really free
b) Even it would be free it would still be a "no no" for most HW-firms.
Apple ? NO! Tratech ? NO! TerraSoft ? NO! Genesi ? NO!
What do "we" get ?
One rather clueless retailer (Eyetech) and maybe 2 vapor products
(Merlancia and the Shark).
Whooooopeeeeee !!
Looking back you might notice that Hyperion talked about running OS4
on the Pegasos and even Macs, but got rather silent when they realized
that they had underestimated the work involved and therefore no
resources to do "hostile ports".
-
The idea of the Dongle seems simple to me.
Amiga Inc. need a computer hardware platform, so they promise Eyetech that the new OS will only run on the AmigaOne, i.e. the machine EyeTech are building. They do this by requiring a Dongle. Eyetech are happy as they know that they will sell a few computers, Amiga Inc. are happy becuase they have some new hardware to call Amiga.
Once both the companies have got their products out, I don't believe for a moment that Amiga Inc. will keep the Dongle requirement in, or at least they will be flexible as to how they licence the OS.
This is the only way I can understand the current business model, it simply doesn't work any other way.
This Dongle is simply a way of making sure both companies can cover their costs, to set the ball rolling so to speak. Once the ball is rolling we may well see a lot of changes.
These are just my (wrong?) opinions and not those of any groups or organisations I may be connect with.
-
Yes, you won't get the AmigaOS4 for free, if that's what you expected
I would not expect OS4 to be free at all,
do you really think another distributor would give you the same hardware support for AmigaOS4
No one would really care if they could buy the same hardware for $100 cheaper elsewhere,
Its all about restricting the user base, all i see it is doing is giving people an ultimatum and not a choice,
Pathetic.
-
OS4 will be pirated but i would say the PPC card version the most, give it a few days/week after it is released before a ISO is uploaded to warez sites.
Do you even realize the amount of trouble theese people are getting themselves into. I, among the majority of the community would make their life not worth living. :-x Am i being realistic? Fill me in please...
Some other people's point of views:
-"325. Ross Heinlein
I'm in developement of a POP board, the "barbie" http://penguinppc.org/dev/pop/ If I can make AOS4 run on this, I'll contribute my sources/drivers, if not, well, one board is better than none, eh? Barbie will NOT be licensing AOS, we don't deal with software companies, it's not our job to chase down OS developers. If you'd like to work on this board, fine, I'll help, if not, that's fine too. Your policy guarantees that your OS will only run on boards specifically manufactured for that purpose, which is very shortsighted considering many PPC boards are about to begin developement due to recently available PPC chipset solutions. You need to realise that as Hardware manufacturers, your OS licensing is NOT our concern, we just build hardware, we don't play games and tailor separate product lines for every "niche-OS" who has crazy ideas, you should rethink yours. I do not speak for my employer in a manner I can be held accountable for, but what I say is a valid representation of their (and my) views on the matter"
-"710. Fred Koler
I will not buy Amiga OS if I am 'locked in' to only approved hardware. I learned my lesson last time"
found it at this site... (http://amigapop.8bit.co.uk/comments.html)
-
You probably hate me by now. And yes, i know MOS doesn't run on the A1 either. It's a real shame.
Found this comment, and i would like to think this goes for MOS too...
-"772. Sander Assenbroek Machielsen
I've been using Amigas since 1986 and have spend thousands of dollars on all this wonderful but overpriced custom computer hardware. I want to be able to use the Amiga OS on other machines too, that are cheaper and more capable than what you are offering. In the past, Amiga meant doing things your own way, you were in control of your computer. This was thanks to the wonderful OS, which evolved over the years, but still needs to be run on ever more aging hardware. With a new version coming up, you are forcing people in a certain direction. Let the people choose and please listen to them - you owe it to us all. We don't need another Mac..."
-
@ple3003
You probably hate me by now.
Hate you?
What are you even talking about?
-
Hate you? What are you even talking about?
I started the AmigaONE vs Pegasos thread. This was not an attempt by me to say Peg/MOS is a better choice just because bla bla bla. Rather to show people there is an interesting alternative to the great AmigaONE. This ofcourse ignited the flame-wars, and that was not appriciated by some people.
This thread as well, seem to trigger some feelings.
-
The petition is total crap.
Its not about saving AmigaOS.
How could all of us not buying Aone/Aos4 save amigaOS.
That would kill it out right.
NO more AmigaOS versions.
AMIGA.INC will then drop all AmigaOS ref. from its site
Hyperion will stay with MacOS/Linux
Eyetech will continue with the Linux version of the mobo.
And i will move on to Apple.
This petition is like a terrorist out fit. Do it My way or ill kill you off.
This petition will not change the plans of Amiga.inc,Hyperion,Eyetech.
All it could do is change the plans of the users to not buy anything & the end result is ITS ALL OVER FOR AMIGAOS.
-
Alkemyst wrote:
The petition is total crap.
Its not about saving AmigaOS.
How could all of us not buying Aone/Aos4 save amigaOS.
That would kill it out right.
NO more AmigaOS versions.
AMIGA.INC will then drop all AmigaOS ref. from its site
Hyperion will stay with MacOS/Linux
Eyetech will continue with the Linux version of the mobo.
And i will move on to Apple.
This petition is like a terrorist out fit. Do it My way or ill kill you off.
Alkemyst, you need to learn the difference between "Petition" and "Boycott"
-
Alkemyst, you need to learn the difference between "Petition" and "Boycott"
I do & if you read some of the comments you can see that the petition is doing exactly that.
Its getting some ppl to boycott Aone/Aos4.
-
@ple3003
Yeah i remember, this AmigaONE vs Pegasos madness has gone over the top,
I will not be purchasing either of them but i think it is great to see healthy competition in the Amiga market,
Let the best man win,
As for the petition you posted comments from, yeah i've signed it :-).
-
@Seehund
Can you imagine Ben Hermans facial expression if you would have asked him 15 months ago to develop OS4 as a "secondary" OS for Apple and Pegasos customers? I can. Hyperion's most important condition was that somebody provides a dedicated hardware platform for their OS.
Escena had left a few months earlier and the Pegasos runs MOS. Eyetech was the only candidate left, and as they don't have the neccessary engineering skills or the money to fund an external development team, they had to adopt an existing design - the TeronCX/PX.
Despite the fact that they're using a finished motherboard design, Eyetech have pumped serious amounts of money into the A1-G3/XE. But now other companies (Terrasoft) will be selling the very same motherboards (this was planned from the beginning) at a lower price, as they don't have to pay licensing fees to Amiga Inc. Would you buy an Eyetech AmigaOne if you could get the same motherboard from Terrasoft - at a lower price? I know I wouldn't.
The licensing scheme (amongst other things) protects Eyetech's investments into the AmigaOne. Without such a protection, Eyetech wouldn't have started the project at all (IMHO). Without the A1, there wouldn't be OS4.
-
by Paul_Gadd on 2003/1/11 2:16:29
@ple3003
Yeah i remember, this AmigaONE vs Pegasos madness has gone over the top,
I will not be purchasing either of them but i think it is great to see healthy competition in the Amiga market,
Let the best man win,
As for the petition you posted comments from, yeah i've signed it.
That is quite common i have found.
Alot of the ppl who signed the petition have no intention of buying anything Anyway.
So they sign the petition to stir things up abit as they have nothing to lose cos they were going to stay with their PC's/Mac's anyway.
-
@Korodny
Damn Right.
-
@Alkemyst
If you have read those comments then it clearly says why they wont purchase a A1 board,
But again we are back to the good old "someone has said something negative about the wonderfull Amiga" which must be tearing you apart inside,
They is no mention of Boycotting on there or even plans to do so unless you have visited a page which i missed (url please).
-
OK, I suffer from mild ethanol intoxication right now, but it actually seems like you wrote what I'm reading, Alkemyst!
Alkemyst wrote:
The petition is total crap.
Its not about saving AmigaOS.
How could all of us not buying Aone/Aos4 save amigaOS.
That would kill it out right.
If you really mean what you said, it seems like you haven't understood that AmigaOS will run on third party hardware, the compulsory licensing/bundling/dongling, and the objections against this and the petition you're talking about.
Being allowed to BUY AMIGAOS is one fundamental part of the petition. BUY IT, get it? Without being restricted to certain vendors for the hardware, and hope for licensees to appear to ever see the OS on more hardware and even if that happened still only being allowed to buy the newly licensed hardware from this highly hypothetical licensee.
NOT maximising sales of AmigaOS, NOT making every effort to have it run on as much hardware as possible without extra, artificially constructed obstacles, and being dependent on the existance and licensees' sales of licensed hardware mainly attracts a subset of the pitiful current Amiga "market" is what makes a high risk for the ultimate death of AmigaOS, IMO.
Eyetech will continue with the Linux version of the mobo.
There's no need or desire for a damn "special" perverted version (dongled, it's the one and only difference) of a motherboard for AmigaOS users. Why in heaven's name should there be an "any OS" and an "AmigaOS" version/distributor of one motherboard to begin with? Isn't the PPC market already tiny, slowly developing and expensive as it is?
This petition is like a terrorist out fit. Do it My way or ill kill you off.
Your logic and frames of reference are astonishing...
Exactly how does a bunch of consumers telling a company that they'd like the OPTION to actually BUY their product without limitations regarding ANOTHER product that has nothing to do with the company in question equal a "terrorist outfit"? Are all consumers who don't buy any particular product "terrorists"? I suppose you equal market research with terrorism too? After all, some companies adapt their development, products, sales and marketing to consumer demand in order to make an attractive product and maximise sales.
This petition will not change the plans of Amiga.inc,Hyperion,Eyetech.
All it could do is change the plans of the users to not buy anything & the end result is ITS ALL OVER FOR AMIGAOS.
Oh yeah, it'd be the fault of the messengers and the protestors, not the people (AI/Eyetech) who wrote the message that's being forwarded and protested against. If everyone just shut up and clenched their fists in their pockets and grinned like idiots at each other, praising the absolute technical and business genius in restricting a small OS dependent on third party hardware to only ever run on and be sold with licensed perversions of this hardware from licensed vendors, then I'm sure AmigaOS would sell like mad. As we all know, all computer savvy consumers are nutjobs who will pay anything for anything with a licensed boingball on it. :-P
-
Come on Alkemyst, it's not the 'petition' that's
hurting anything, it's A - Inc's policies that
upset these people enough for there to be a
petition in the first place. There wouldn't be a
petition otherwise. And if this is really about
you believing in the principle of a dongle (I'm
not saying you said this, just inferring) or a
license deal, would you be one of the first to
head up the charge for a software dongle,
if there wasn't one?
-
well here it is....I'm no Picasso - but I think it
does exhibit a certain 'frenchness' or something.
-
Korodny wrote:
Can you imagine Ben Hermans facial expression if you would have asked him 15 months ago to develop OS4 as a "secondary" OS for Apple and Pegasos customers? I can.
I'm not sure. The classic "dollar-signs in the eyes" expression? ;)
Hyperion's most important condition was that somebody provides a dedicated hardware platform for their OS.
Ah, but there is no dedicated hardware platform for AmigaOS. The Teron boards are not dedicated to any OS. A mobo will run any OS that's compatible with it. For the Teron boards that has predominantly been Linux.
The distribution of some of the Teron boards, and the distributor of those is artificially dedicated to AmigaOS, and there can be no alternatives. That's what's so grotesque.
Escena had left a few months earlier and the Pegasos runs MOS. Eyetech was the only candidate left, and as they don't have the neccessary engineering skills or the money to fund an external development team, they had to adopt an existing design - the TeronCX/PX.
No, Eyetech has never been a sole alternative since the Escena A1-1200/4000 projects failed. They're "just" another computer shop and distributor. The Teron boards have never been dependent on Eyetech. The more distributors the merrier though. The current dependency on Eyetech is an artificial invention, which has arisen from a licensing deal.
Despite the fact that they're using a finished motherboard design, Eyetech have pumped serious amounts of money into the A1-G3/XE. But now other companies (Terrasoft) will be selling the very same motherboards (this was planned from the beginning) at a lower price, as they don't have to pay licensing fees to Amiga Inc. Would you buy an Eyetech AmigaOne if you could get the same motherboard from Terrasoft - at a lower price? I know I wouldn't.
Precisely. There's no reason to why a user of AmigaOS should be treated as a retard compared to if he was running e.g. Linux. If a customer prefers one vendor (for whatever reason; price, support, geographic proximity, ugliness of the logo, whatever) over another for the EXACT SAME product, he should naturally be allowed to choose that vendor for his purchase. This is healthy and desperately needed competition.
Whatever money one distributor has pumped into the sales of somebody else's product is irrelevant to the end-customers. We're not here to play charity. AmigaOS can't be dependent on that people should be prepared to pay extra for one third-party hardware distributors' "investments" (and even the Escena failure!). If a customer feels that "this distributor has payed more money for selling the same board" (which is odd...) would be relevant to his selection of vendor, then fine, let him have the OPTION to buy from there.
By the way, even before Terra Soft became a Mai VAR/distributor (which of course has been anticipated since the first hints that they were testing YDL on the boards), Mai sold the boards themselves, cheaper than Eyetech. I don't know what Inguard charges for their complete Teron systems.
The licensing scheme (amongst other things) protects Eyetech's investments into the AmigaOne. Without such a protection, Eyetech wouldn't have started the project at all (IMHO). Without the A1, there wouldn't be OS4.
Nonsense. The very existence and the development and sales of Teron boards have never been dependent on Eyetech. That's a ludicrous notion. If anything, OS4 has been dependent on Mai. The invented dependency on Eyetech (and all those other eagerly waiting hypothetical licensees... ;)) is a business construction - and it's totally unnecessary, IMO.
As for the licensing scheme protecting Eyetech's investments in Teron boards, whatever those investments might be... I can only say that it's highly unfortunate and sad that AmigaOS, its possible hardware base, marketshare, commercial potential and customers are to suffer and pay for the costs of a third party hardware distributor. If a distributor has invested money it is to be recovered by sales of the product he's distributing. If he can't compete with other dstributors, tough luck! Then customers of ANOTHER product - AmigaOS - should be allowed to turn elsewhere for their hardware neds.
-
Alright -D- you've inspired me some more.
Does that look like a cat fur toupee to you?
AmigaGuy
-
by Paul_Gadd on 2003/1/11 3:27:11
@Alkemyst
If you have read those comments then it clearly says why they wont purchase a A1 board,
But again we are back to the good old "someone has said something negative about the wonderfull Amiga" which must be tearing you apart inside,
They is no mention of Boycotting on there or even plans to do so unless you have visited a page which i missed (url please).
No not at all but its that i know many of the ppl who have signed the petition & i knew their views before the petition was started.
They had no intention of buying any PPC mobo. They wanted AmigaOx86 or nothing.
Many have other motives to sign the petition.
Some hoping to kill AmigaOS ppc in the hope that amiga.inc will turn to x86
other are MOS guy's hoping to put ppl off Aone/AmigaOS4, so that may get them over to pegasos/MOS.
You & mips_proc should stop your self centered norrow mined view of other ppl,
with your continualy telling ppl what they are feeling & saying.
You have to see things from their point of view & not yours all the time.
Cos your too busy thinking what you would really meen if you were useing them words your self,instead of just reading what is said to be exactly what is said.
Just Look at seehund's post's for a good example to having a totaly different view to me.
But nowhere does he tell me what im feeling or what your really trying to say is all the time comments. And no name calling or worship comments.
-
by -D- on 2003/1/11 3:52:59
Come on Alkemyst, it's not the 'petition' that's
hurting anything, it's A - Inc's policies that
upset these people enough for there to be a
petition in the first place. There wouldn't be a
petition otherwise. And if this is really about
you believing in the principle of a dongle (I'm
not saying you said this, just inferring) or a
license deal, would you be one of the first to
head up the charge for a software dongle,
if there wasn't one?
That comment implies that im not being truthful in what im saying.
I stand by what im saying, i will not say anything wich to hide what i really think.
I say what i think.
The last bit of your comment implies that you know what i would & would not do.
The fact is you have No idear what i would or would not do & nore do you know the depth of my pockets.
-
Remember folks
The Teron board as sold by Mai was over 2 Grand not sold cheaper as some people have erroneously
posted here.
If it wasn't for Eyetech Terrasoft wouldn't have a "Cheap" Linux board to sell.
( Uh my AmigaOne board cost me $550 delivered. Not much more than the $500 + shipping advertized
price by Terrasoft. Not bad considering I have had my board since November and Terrasoft is not yet
shipping. )
The boards sold by Terrasoft will have the PPCboot ROM Developed by Hyperion.
which BTW is constantly being updated right now.
The main difference being that the Amigaone version will have Amiga OS Extensions in the ROM
You want to run Linux get the Terrasoft board.
You want to run AmigaOS get the AmigaOne simple really.
Most of the idiots crying about the So called Dongle have NO INTENTION OF EVER BUYING AN AMIGA ONE
WITH OR WITHOUT THE SO CALLED DONGLE!!
It is just an excuse to push people to Their side of the fence.
The Amigaone is no more or less dongled than the Pegasos board.
Yes Hyperion could try to develope for a hostile system
but not only would be hard, and costly, it would be dangerous.
The DMCA in the US would make such an attempt illegal
Just look at the current lawsuit Lexmark has launched against
Manufacturers of generic ink cartridges using the DCMA.
Most of what is posted here is shear lunacy.
Burying people in a mass Email is a sure way to make sure nothing gets done as they spend hours just
reading massive amounts of garbage in an attempt to find someone with an intelligent Email.
That plan must of been thought up by someone who wants to make sure nothing gets done.
Just a side note the MorphOS Public Developers list had about 50 posts for all of December.
The AmigaOS 4.0 List gets more than that in a Day.
Read what you want into that.
Kurt
-
@AmigaGuy
LOL! ;)
@Alkemyst
I wasn't implying that I know what you would
or wouldn't do, I was asking a question, but you
seem to have ignored the last sixteen or so of
them anyway, so feel free to keep rockin'.
@Kurt
You're totally full of it with that BS back
there, and you know it.
>The Teron board as sold by Mai was over 2 Grand
>not sold cheaper
Yeah right, maybe 50 years ago when it was new,
but the price drops as the technology ages,
Eyetech never sold ONE of those boards for
$550 or whatever when a regular Teron sold for
'2 Grand', your point here makes absolutely no
sense at all, really. And what are you so scared
of, you speak of 'OS extensions' like they were
something other than a dongle.
-
@bloodline
Thank you! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!!!
I'm not alone! Some one else actually has the same opinion on this whole licensing issue as I do! I don't seriously believe that Hyperion (and for that matter AI) would want to restrict the hardware their product (license revenue) will run on indefinitely. The fact that everyone... Err, well, almost everyone... ... ... The fact that most everyone neglects to mention that the current license IS AN OEM license and not a RETAIL license drives me nuts! The AI/Hyperion/Eyetch OEM license is no where near as Draconian as some other OEM licenses, yet everyone is so quick to judge AI/Hyperion/Eyetch on the assumption that the OEM license excludes the possibility of any other licensing terms.
@ Everyone else
The facts, yes the FACTS!
The facts are Genesi have not stated their official licensing terms. Genesi have also made no substantive indication that they will support anything other than the Pegasos and phase 5 PPC boards w/G-REX PCI (produced ?largely? by hardware partnerDCE). In effect, the Pegasos and G-REX are hardware dongles and thus provide hardware copy protection.
The facts are that AI/Hyperion/Eyetech have not made it clear whether there will be no retail license. Nor that a retail license will be an exact copy of the OEM license. AI/Hyperion have stated that an OEM license with terms requiring hardware bundling and copy protection has been obtained by Eyetech for the AmigaOne. AOS4 support for phase 5 (and potentially Elbox and Matay) PPC boards will be available, most probably, under similar terms as the OEM license. In this case using the original Amiga as means of hardware copy protection dongle.
Until Genesi AND/OR AI/Hyperion/Eyetch explicitly confirm or deny licensing terms that are ultimately exclusive, the prejudice most stop!
[Note: I want to re-iterate, my stance is not a pro/anti Genesi or AI/Hyperion/Eyetch one. Regardless of percieved or implied bias. I recognize the implied anti-Genesi bias in my post. IT IS INTENTIONAL! BUT IT IS NOT INTENDED TO ACTUALLY BE ANTI-GENESI!!! It is there merely to highlight the fact that (to my knowledge) Genesi has no official licensing policy, as of yet! I am willing to give both parties the benefit of the doubt.
Anyone ignoring this notice, is trolling merely for the sake of trolling. Thus I will ignore them!]
-
is no where near as Draconian
ahhh but what other company that dosent make hardware... has romed their OS to one board?.....find one...
-
I do & if you read some of the comments you can see that the petition is doing exactly that.
amen....the petition is where I first heard about the license scheme...thats when I decided I wouldnt buy an A1/OS4...
-
@ShadesOfGrey
AINc has made it 100% clear that there wonb't be a retail version
of OS4 except the one for the old P5-HW.
Just reread those exec-ups.
Both AInc and Eyetech have invested 0.0$ into OS4, and so I see no
reason why they should be entilted for a "save return".
Eyetech had invested some money in the a piece of HW that was a dead-end
from the beginning(Escena-A1). Though luck !!
-
How many of you against the licensing system have considered support as one reason to have it?
Generally, if you call a software company looking for support, they'll do the best they can (including Microsoft.) They'll make sure that you aren't, first of all, suffering from a well known issue. Past that, they'll check the installation, rogue software and possibly virii. If you pass all that, you're most likely going to be passed off to the hardware manufacturer.
If you're running an operating system that isn't supported by the company, you will receive very little if any support at all. As an example, if you're running Linux and they only support Windows, you'll be forced to install Windows on the machine first (if it isn't installed) and they'll go through a little software support first.
Now lets say the same thing happens with AmigaOS 4.x. Hyperion will go through the steps similar to what I've outlined above. At some point, your hardware WILL become suspect and you'll be referred back to the hardware folks. Exactly how much support do you expect to receive from them when you're running an operating system they don't support and know very little (if anything) about? It's going to be limited. The troubleshooting process is going to take longer than it would have if the hardware been certified.
There are a lot of people who thought at one point that they'd never need to call a support line doing just that. Is saving a few bucks really worth the extra hassle you might be putting yourself through should something go wrong you can't solve yourself? Think about it. Be honest.
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>In effect, the Pegasos and G-REXX are hardware
dongles and thus provide copy protection.
That's not even close to the same thing as a
specific ROM and OS coded to work together for
vague corpo reasons...besides, the intended
purpose of the G-REXX and Pegasos have nothing
to do with copy protection, unlike the A1/OS4
scenario. It's not an accurate comparison.
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I havent considerd 'support' at all... license schemes like this that claim 'superior quality' or better 'support' are (in my opinon) crock's of sh*t... and should be avoided...I think of A.inc/Amiga the same way I do auto-dealers... if I go shopping for rims/hubcaps... I dont expect to have to buy a whole car to get the ones I want....same equation works here.
I also severely doubt that A.inc will have phone lines setup to call when your hardware messes up... why dont the current A1 owners see?... or try calling eyetech or hyperion... unless they have good 1-800 plans your going to have to pay international rates if your not in those countrys anyway...so its a crock... in my opinon.
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amen....the petition is where I first heard about the license scheme...thats when I decided I wouldnt buy an A1/OS4...
The license includes certification.
I can guarantee you that if you call Microsoft having issues and they notice that you're running hardware with non-certified drivers that you're call is going to end quicker than it would have if they were certified. And they don't certify out of kindness..
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@Madgun68
I agree, so let them have a supported board or two,
the people that desire an 'out of the box' solution
can get one, and those that want to doctor up their
own rig can do that, too. It would be like the
OS3.9 scenario, but less hacky.
Although hotlines are very helpful to some, I've
never needed one, but it could be there
anyway for those who bought the Teron or whichever
other board.
Plus...we're not talking about the dude who just
bought his first Dell here, 90+% of those interested
in OS4 are more than capable of setting up their
own system. I didn't need A - Inc to protect me
when I upgraded my old Amigas, and I really can't
see this being any more difficult. Using it as
a reason to force people into buying Eyetechs's
board is a bit ridiculous, IMO.
Besides...I can buy XP and install it on whatever
the heck I want to build, so why is this different?
Are Amiga users too dumb to do the same?
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I can guarantee you that if you call Microsoft having issues and they notice that you're running hardware with non-certified drivers that you're call is going to end quicker than it would have if they were certified. And they don't certify out of kindness..
so what?... microsoft a gigantic real company... their not in the same boat 'AT ALL" as A1/OS4...
MS produces an OS and dosent 'ROM" it to anything it OEM licenses it to some...but it sells 'retail'... I'm not going to even debate this... MS's license is far less restrictive (in my opinon)... they dont use rom's they dont restrict who can sell PC's with windows... they sell retail...etc etc etc
I also dont think many companys that make PPC boards will care enough about the handful of Amiga sales they could make to modify their boards to make AOS run on them. I would prefer to have bought Barbie or Pegasos....with AOS4...instead I'll use MOS.
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I havent considerd 'support' at all... license schemes like this that claim 'superior quality' or better 'support' are (in my opinon) crock's of sh*t... and should be avoided...I think of A.inc/Amiga the same way I do auto-dealers... if I go shopping for rims/hubcaps... I dont expect to have to buy a whole car to get the ones I want....same equation works here.
No.. But you DO make sure that those rims/hubcaps fit the vehicle you want them for. You don't just buy ANYTHING and expect it to work.
I doubt if anyone's considered support. They'd just expect it to work, and demand Hyperion to fix it if it didn't. Considering the risk they've already taken just on OS 4 itself, I wouldn't spend additional effort (a.k.a. money) doing so unless I was sure that I'd make that up in additional sales. (ESPECIALLY if that product wasn't marketed to my consumer audience and could care less if they sold anything to them or not.)
also severely doubt that A.inc will have phone lines setup to call when your hardware messes up... why dont the current A1 owners see?... or try calling eyetech or hyperion... unless they have good 1-800 plans your going to have to pay international rates if your not in those countrys anyway...so its a crock... in my opinon.
So instead you buy generic PPC motherboard X. You expect it to "just work" and it doesn't. You don't call Amiga Inc. They didn't make the hardware. You don't call Hyperion, because they don't make hardware at all. You don't call Eyetech, because it isn't their hardware either. The motherboard manufacturer is NOT going to help you get AmigaOS running on it because they've (most likely) never heard of it or used it. What then? Spend money returning it and HOPE that the next product you purchase does work?
It's not about superior quality. It's about knowing that the hardware you just bought works exactly as you expect it to with the operating system you intend to use.
You don't care if what you buy has any support options? Fine for you. There are plenty of people out there that do.
I'm not in any way saying this is why the license is in place. All I'm pointing out is that there are valid reasons for its existence. (Not to mention that this is ALL speculation. The only people who know exactly why they chose this method aren't talking.)
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Madgun lets get real...there are basically 3 boards OS4 "COULD" run on... the barbie the pegasos and the A1... all of them very similer.... minimal differances.... this rom license isnt about support...its about eyetech getting your money and not someone else...
whatever 'support' or other arguments you can make it's not about that... their not just OEM licenseing it... their 'roming' it...if they where so worried about support and 'quality' they could have sold a 'certified' bundle...and let retail be for people who dont want the A1....this is all my opinon of course...but its how I feel on the subject...
You don't care if what you buy has any support options? Fine for you. There are plenty of people out there that do.
to that I respond
I'd rather have superior quality and freedom...'support' is bogus... I dont believe its about support...the differance between Pegasos and A1 is minimal...
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No, my dear Alkemyst. The petition is not boycotting
anything.
I singed it and I plan to buy OS4. I will not buy the
AmigaONE for my own reasons (it's not a platform I
like).
It doesn't state ANYWHERE in the petition that we
should boycott anything. The petition is collecting
signatures to send to Amiga Inc.
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They said that they plan to port it to Macs if they can.
They also said that they will port it to anything if they
can find the resources.
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There are *MANY* shops here in Greece selling PCs
and parts, that assemple systems themselves and
sometimes ship them with an illegal version of
windows. The support is excellent in all of them,
regardless not having an OEM licence with Microsoft.
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so what?... microsoft a gigantic real company... their not in the same boat 'AT ALL" as A1/OS4...
Correct. Microsoft can AFFORD to certify drivers for free, yet they don't. Hyperion doesn't have a large enough market to justify the cost.
MS produces an OS and dosent 'ROM" it to anything it OEM licenses it to some...but it sells 'retail'... I'm not going to even debate this... MS's license is far less restrictive (in my opinon)... they dont use rom's they dont restrict who can sell PC's with windows... they sell retail...etc etc etc
OEM licenses to SOME? Microsoft makes more money from OEMs than it does retail sales of Windows. A LOT MORE.
Less restrictive? They used to require that every computer an OEM sold came with Windows. Don't feel with complying? Fine. They'll just refuse you ANY licenses.
All that's being said here is that any board you sell to our market needs a license.
I also dont think many companys that make PPC boards will care enough about the handful of Amiga sales they could make to modify their boards to make AOS run on them. I would prefer to have bought Barbie or Pegasos....with AOS4...instead I'll use MOS.
You're right. They don't care if your their customer or not. Personally, I'd prefer to do business with a company that wants me as a customer.
Not to be rude, but I still cannot fathom why ANYONE would want a barbie board. The only pictures I've seen of this board show a whopping two pci slots, no agp slot and onboard Rage LX chip. (And onboard sound hardware usually always sucks.)
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by AmiGR on 2003/1/11 11:43:09
No, my dear Alkemyst. The petition is not boycotting
anything.
I singed it and I plan to buy OS4. I will not buy the
AmigaONE for my own reasons (it's not a platform I
like).
It doesn't state ANYWHERE in the petition that we
should boycott anything. The petition is collecting
signatures to send to Amiga Inc.
Please read my post again & you will see that i do not state ANYWHERE that the petition says boycott or that the petition is boycott.
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I think, I read somewhere, that MorphOS already runs on A1... Not 100% sure though...
And about piracy, there's always some "gray area" between legal and illegal.
Like using pirated version of game/program instead of original one owned, becouse of damaged original, irritating copy protection, added cheats etc.
In same way, some people could buy AOS4 but use cracked version, without dongle protection (Maybe on "unofficial" hardware too)
(I'm not saying anything, like someone should crack AOS4, so don't blame me for that...)
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I wonder, what makes people think that AmigaOS *would* run on POP-Hardware? The only POP-Board that *I* have has a CPC700 chipset on it, and that is something that AmigaOS 4 doesn't use.
So why should this run on "any POP hardware", as people always claim, and "only the dongle prohibits it running on anything else". It just shows that people bringing up that claim should check their facts.
For the final time, AMIGAOS 4 DOES NOT RUN ON POP HARDWARE WITHOUT ADAPTING TO THIS HARDWARE. Sorry for shouting, but apparently some people have a very hard time understanding this.
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Rogue what we mean is this... AOS4 could run on Pegasos/Barbie... do you (as a programmer of AOS4) think that if management had decided to make AOS4 retail you would have gotten it running on Barbie/pegasos without issue? ... assumeing there was no rom/dongle..etc..
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Personally, I don't see how either solution (Mos/Pos and A1/AOS) is any better than the other. Sure, we know the stance on A1/AOS, but Genesi has said almost nothing about what hardware they definately are going to support or what methods they'll require for a PPC board to get support. At this moment, however, if you want to run Mos, you're buying a Pos.. rom or no rom.
It's really hard to argue anything about the Amiga licensing conditions, because the only people who know for certain what the conditions are aren't talking.
The rom vs. piracy issue is highly debatable too. Sure, pirates can crack it and modify the OS so it doesn't need the rom. Does that mean that I can say WITHOUT A DOUBT that because of this piracy wasn't at least a factor in the rom being chosen? Not honestly. I haven't seen a method of protecting software that hasn't been cracked yet. Does that stop companies from trying? Not in a heart beat.
On some of these issues, everyone involved seems to be running in circles like a dog chasing its tail. I guess we'll keep going that way until we have all the facts.
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Madgun lets get real...there are basically 3 boards OS4 "COULD" run on... the barbie the pegasos and the A1... all of them very similer.... minimal differances.... this rom license isnt about support...its about eyetech getting your money and not someone else...
No, there is not just those three ArticiaS based designs out there, there is also the PPC cards from Phase5, Elbox and DCE. Should we exclude 50% of the available options through making the AmigaOS ArticiaS chipset based or should we have a licensing scheme which makes it possible to cooperate with basicly any PPC hardware manufacturer and therefore not exclude any option at all? Yes, that is what this licensing scheme is about, cooperating with hardware manufacturers that doesn't comply to this MAI dominated chipset standard. Why do you want them to create a software market dependant on MAI Technologies? Wouldn't you prefer if they remain open for alternative hardware creations?
You see, setting up a standard like the ArticiaS chipset would leave all other hardware out in the cold, it simply wouldn't be worth the extra effort. All kinds of hardware innovation would be discouraged and controlled by MAI technologies. How do I know this? Well, look at the so-called IBM compatibles, a standard embraced by Microsoft and therefore the only standard. There has been close to none hardware innovations since Win95 and VIA + Intel are basicly the ones running the show. Despite high clock speeds, it's the very same crappy architecture behind it. Is this what you want, Seehund and all? Well, I don't. That's the Microsoft approach and far from the Amiga ideals, don't you think?
This licensing scheme on the other hand, will put any licensee at the same level as the other regardless of the hardware architecture. It will remove this kind of worries from their customers as both will have the officially supported Amiga hardware label. This will encourage hardware innovation, stimulate competition and improve the quality of the hardware support in general. It's a win-win situation and it's just too bad so many of you seem to have problems with seeing this.
The argments that the licensing scheme would be restricting our hardware options is just so short sighted and utterly wrong. The only hardware options the license is prohibiting is:
a) Those who for some reason don't want to support the AmigaOS and probably would even restrict their hardware from running on it if the AmigaOS could.
b) Those who don't care about the AmigaOS and would not even if they could give any support to it's users.
For me, that's not such a big loss. The gain from it is so much bigger in the long run.
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There are no more Amigas, I don't want a new Amiga (unless it's cheaper and better than what everyone else on the consumer hardware market can come up with, although this won't/can't happen, but even then I'd like options). I want to buy AmigaOS. Who sells me what hardware is none of the software producers' concern.
Now we are at the heart of the matter, right?
Sorry, but that doesn't work that way. The prerequisite for starting the project was an officially branded Amiga hardware, not the vague hope that sometime somewhere an affordable PowerPC hardware could have been found.
You are right, Hyperion/Eyetech/Amiga cannot be compared to Apple.
For a small company like Amiga or Hyperion, it is *impossible* to support a wide range, so you have to restrict this to a set of hardware where you actually can guarantee support. If something goes wrong, you aren't likely to get support from your hypothetical hardware vendor, because they will say "What's an Omega?". You will turn to Hyperion/AmigaInc. You will expect us to fix your problem. You have paid money, so you won't accept a "sorry we can't help you" or "we told you so".
With officially branded hardware, part of the support (the hardware specific support) can be handled by the hardware manufacturer, while other issues will be handled by AmigaInc/Hyperion.
This can only be achived with a licencing scheme with officially branded hardware. If you think that this will work any other way, you should spend one week in the support department and see for yourself.
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Not the old "MacOS only runs on Macs" again, please!
I wasn't raising it. Just like I don't know all the factors in the equation of whether it would make more business sense to keep the hardware open or to keep it closed, neither do you. Don't pretend you do.
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This can only be achived with a licencing scheme with officially branded hardware. If you think that this will work any other way, you should spend one week in the support department and see for yourself.
Do I get a free plane ticket to your corner of the world if I do? :-P
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, there is also the PPC cards from Phase5, Elbox and DCE.
Heh ??????
Phase5: Yes those cards exist and will be supported WITHOUT a licence.
ELBOX: 100% vapor and according to Elbox Articia-based.
DCE: ???? Do you mean those cards that are identical to the p5s ?
Cos thats all you will ever get from DCE.
The only non-Articia PPC-HW that is available for consumers comes
from Apple, and don't expect them to come crawling for a licence.
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How little you know, perhaps I should add the planned G3/G4 cards from Matay?
Nevertheless, my point remains; why limit ourselves to the mainstream hardware?
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It did run on the Teron/AmigaONE boards with the old
Softex (crappy) BIOS. They do not support PPCBoot
though. Only Softex and SmartFirmware.
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Phase5: Yes those cards exist and will be supported WITHOUT a licence.
No, it doesn't require a hardware manufacturer represant in order to license the hardware. If Hyperion or Amiga Inc. says it's hardware supprted by the AmigaOS4, then it has been granted a license. You see, the license is not a one way street, it works both ways. A license can either be applied for or be granted as an initiative from them directly.
ELBOX: 100% vapor and according to Elbox Articia-based.
Vapor? Unless it's official information from Elbox, that is FUD.
ArticiaS based? I don't know but I'm pretty sure they will have to make a specific SharkPPC HAL in order for the AmigaOS to run on it anyway.
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>How little you know,
Says the one who tried to tell me that the A1-Xe would be based on the
A1-SE and not the TeronPX.......
>perhaps I should add the planned G3/G4 cards from Matay?
Why not Merlancia ? Just about as much realistic ....
>Nevertheless, my point remains; why limit ourselves to the mainstream hardware?
Mainstream ? Wow you got a weird view of that. If ther is any "mainstream"
PPC-HW than it is made by Apple, so much is for sure.
And who said something about limiting ?
It is just a fact that porting the A1-version to another Articia-based board
would be much easier as getting OS4 to run on something non-Articia.
So whre are the options for OS4 ? And no I don't think addons for addons
to ten year old home-comuters are a valid future plan.
Running on legacy free HW, is the main point of OS and MOS, and sofar
OS4 has limited itself to the most inferior option out there.
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No, it doesn't require a hardware manufacturer represant in order to license the hardware
Do you understand the meaning of the word "licence" ?
Noone from P5 signed a contract with AInc.
There is and will be no dongle on those cards.
Copies of OS4 for this will be sold WITHOUT being bundled to the HW.
So yes it will be supported without a licence.
Vapor? Unless it's official information from Elbox, that is FUD.
No until Elbox shows a running (maybe linux) of that card it is VAPOR !!
(just look it up in a dictionary).
Elbox were in Aachen, but all they showed was bunch of mediators.
Oh and do you remember that they claimed that it would be able to
run an A1 version of OS4 unchanged ? Well that is only possible if it is
Articia-based.
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Kronos wrote:
>How little you know,
Says the one who tried to tell me that the A1-Xe would be based on the
A1-SE and not the TeronPX.......
Huh? I don't even recall discussing that matter with you, Kronos. You don't happen to have an URL for this accusation of yours?
>perhaps I should add the planned G3/G4 cards from Matay?
Why not Merlancia ? Just about as much realistic ....
The issue isn't wether it's realistic or not (I actually agree on this, you know), it's about the *possibilities* we exclude if we turn the AmigaOS into some kind of hardware standard based OS.
>Nevertheless, my point remains; why limit ourselves to the mainstream hardware?
Mainstream ? Wow you got a weird view of that. If ther is any "mainstream"
PPC-HW than it is made by Apple, so much is for sure.
No, Apple's hardware is not mainstream, it's propriety. Since the ArticiaS chipset is what's commonly used among the non-propriety PPC hardware options out there, I'd say it is as close to mainstream you can get without actually beeing it. The whole PPC industry is as far from mainstream as you can get but the ArticiaS chipset based solutions are mainstream if you disregard everything propriety and non-ppc.
And who said something about limiting ?
That is the result of not having this kind of licensing scheme. That is the result of not having all PPC architectures on the same level and practising the "supporting the most common hardware standard" approach.
It is just a fact that porting the A1-version to another Articia-based board
would be much easier as getting OS4 to run on something non-Articia.
Yes, I'm sure MAI technologies would love this kind of reasoning. Now, get back to the "not favoring a specific hardware manufacturer" kind of thinking. You want competition and the freedom of choice, right?
So whre are the options for OS4 ?
What are the options the license has restricted the AmigaOS4 from supporting? Yes, I deliberately didn't answer your question because I think I think this question needs to be answered first.
And no I don't think addons for addons to ten year old home-comuters are a valid future plan.
Neither do I.
Running on legacy free HW, is the main point of OS and MOS, and sofar
OS4 has limited itself to the most inferior option out there.
So, how many more options than the AmigaOS4 users will the MorphOS users have?
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@samface
as is their excludeing more then 50% of the 'new' options IE:Pegasos/Barbie..
I understand they plan to have OS4 for PPC accelerators... I'm speaking of the normal A1/Pegasos/Barbie (articiaS) boards that are out...
I dont think hardware companies should have to bend over backward for the privelige of having an OS run on their hardware.... most if not all of these solutions primary OS and intention is not to run AOS/MOS or any alternative... but to run Linux anyway..
No, it doesn't require a hardware manufacturer represant in order to license the hardware. If Hyperion or Amiga Inc. says it's hardware supprted by the AmigaOS4, then it has been granted a license. You see, the license is not a one way street, it works both ways. A license can either be applied for or be granted as an initiative from them directly.
so what your saying is that this 'license' is totally arbitrary and meaningless ?... well its nice you admit that much.
@Rogue
I ask again... if management had decided to have AOS4 be 'retail' would it be very hard to get it to run on the Pegasos/Barbie systems?....or would that hardware somehow not work out?
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I read that article. To me it comes across as someone spouting off because a company they don't own has the temerity to go off in a direction they don't approve of.
Well, if the author wants to take his ball and go home he can be my guest. When the time is right and it makes financial sense for me to do so (it's been a difficult year here, too) I will be purchasing an AmigaONE. The dongle won't interfere with running other OS's unless those other OS's want it to. It is simply there to protect the interests of the IP owners, and against that I cannot and will not argue.
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What Barbie board? Can you actually buy that anywhere? I didn't see this yet.
On the Pegasos, it would probably be easy to reuse larger parts, but I don't know how much different their southbridge is. A CPC7xx based board would mean additional work, since all of the components are different (with the possible exception of the serial ports - big deal).
But since I've never seen any specs on Barbie, I cannot really comment.
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(OT) I personally want to run both solutions.
I want MorphOS and I'll buy it. I want OS4 and I'll buy
it too. I want a Pegasos and I'll buy it to run MorphOS
and linux. I DON'T want an AmigaONE (for my own reasons, I don't like it as a piece of hardware) and
I will not buy it. I just believe that the licence scheme
Amiga Inc has set will not help the Amiga market.
It will shrink it even more, making matters MUCH
worse. Believe what you want but most people
believe that that's the truth.
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Kronos wrote:
Do you understand the meaning of the word "licence" ?
In this case:
tr.v. li·censed, li·cens·ing, li·cens·es
1. To give or yield permission to or for.
2. To grant a license to or for; authorize.
If Amiga Inc. says that they are giving the AmigaOS4 users permission to use their product with Phase5 hardware, then that hardware is AmigaOS4 licensed. That does not mean Amiga Inc. decides what Phase5 hardware may be used with, just that their product may be used with it.
Noone from P5 signed a contract with AInc.
That's not required because Amiga Inc. and Hyperion are the ONLY ones deciding what their product may be used with.
There is and will be no dongle on those cards.
Amiga Inc. makes the terms of the licensing scheme and if they want to make an exception, they are free to do so. This does not work as an argument for that it wouldn't be licensed.
Copies of OS4 for this will be sold WITHOUT being bundled to the HW.
Same thing as above.
So yes it will be supported without a licence.
Beeep! Wrong. Thank you for playing. Amiga Inc. are the license holders and may license anything in any way they want. If I for example write an essay and copyright the material, that makes me the copyright owner. If I want it published on the net and have no way of publishing it on my own, I will have to license someone else to do it. By simply giving the essay to someone else and telling him to publish it, I have given that person a license to publish it. No contract, no nothing is required. It may be wise if I don't trust the person but nevertheless, he was licensed the minute I gave that person permission to publish, with or without a contract. That's how licensing works and by this reasoning, I'm telling you that the Phase5 hardware cannot be officially supported and unlicensed at the same time. By officially supporting the hardware, it is licensed. The only way of running the AmigaOS unlicensed is without permission from the license holder.
Vapor? Unless it's official information from Elbox, that is FUD.
No until Elbox shows a running (maybe linux) of that card it is VAPOR !!
(just look it up in a dictionary).
Vapor means nothing. We do NOT know if it doesn't exist, for that we would have to have confirmation from Elbox themselves or we would have to enter their labs and look for ourselves. All YOU know is that you don't know, that is not enough for claiming that it is vapor.
Elbox were in Aachen, but all they showed was bunch of mediators.
Like I said, just because you haven't seen it, that doesn't mean it is non-existant. The same goes for UFO's, God, the Easterbunny, etc. You are per definition spreading FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) because proclaiming doom on something unknown is, period.
Oh and do you remember that they claimed that it would be able to
run an A1 version of OS4 unchanged ? Well that is only possible if it is
Articia-based.
Neither you or I know enough about this issue and really should try focusing on those things we do know.
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so samface since you now admit the license is arbitrary what motivation do you think A.inc/etc have in not letting OS4 run on pegasos/barbie ?
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as is their excludeing more then 50% of the 'new' options IE:Pegasos/Barbie..
No, that is incorrect. No option has been excluded what so ever. Name any hardware solution that has been excluded.
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there is too much crap going on about amiga OS4, why not just waite and see IF it comes out, then judge it and wine all you want about it.
trust me, I will be sitting back reading all the complaints and maybe a praise here and there to help me make my dicision on waisting (or investing) any more money into the Amiga Cult
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Pegasos,Barbie...both use ArticiaS chipset...and have 'standerd' bios...
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so samface since you now admit the license is arbitrary what motivation do you think A.inc/etc have in not letting OS4 run on pegasos/barbie ?
1. The Pegasos? But surely you know that the very same company has created their own AmigaOS clone and therefore has very little interest in having AmigaOS run on their hardware? Like Hans-Jörg said, it's about support from the hardware manufacturer. Imagine beeing an AmigaOS user or developer and calling them for hardware support. Besides, I doubt the AmigaOS will ever run on their hardware regardless of the licensing scheme, believing differently is beeing nothing but naive.
2. The Barbie? I'm sorry but that Linux dude is the kind of guy that expects others to create software specificly for his hardware on their own initiative. That's not how it works. If he gets a userbase for his hardware then maybe, but that on the other hand requires software for it. What has Hyperion to gain from making support for his hardware with basicly a non-existent userbase? Nothing. What does he has to gain from having AmigaOS4 support? I'd say a whole lot. Wake up and smell the coffee...
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@Seehund:
Ah, but there is no dedicated hardware platform for AmigaOS. The Teron boards are not dedicated to any OS. A mobo will run any OS that's compatible with it. For the Teron boards that has predominantly been Linux.
You didn't understand what I was trying to say. "Dedicated hardware" = hardware who's primarily sold to customers that want to run AmigaOS4 (see below).
No, Eyetech has never been a sole alternative since the Escena A1-1200/4000 projects failed. They're "just" another computer shop and distributor. The Teron boards have never been dependent on Eyetech.
I never said the AmigaOne hardware is something special. The special thing about the AmigaOne is that Eyetech targets AmigaOS customers. They're gonna do support for the Teron/OS4 combination, they'll bundle OS4 with their hardware and they guarantee to favour AmigaOS4 over any other OS (unlike Genesi or Apple for example) For crying out loud, they're marketing it as "the Amiga" (and they're even willing to let Amiga Inc. act is if it was their own product).
Please read my lips: That's what Hyperion demanded. They wouldn't have done OS4 otherwise.
You didn't name any other candidates that could have met these requirements - let alone were interested in doing so?
The current dependency on Eyetech is an artificial invention, which has arisen from a licensing deal.
No. It has arisen from Hyperion's condition that somebody must provide a dedicated hardware platform for OS4 - see Rogue's posting.
Precisely. There's no reason to why a user of AmigaOS should be treated as a retard compared to if he was running e.g. Linux.
I just gave you a reason. Terrasoft is not interested in AmigaOS (at least not as much as Eyetech).
If a customer prefers one vendor (for whatever reason; price, support, geographic proximity, ugliness of the logo, whatever) over another for the EXACT SAME product, he should naturally be allowed to choose that vendor for his purchase.
This is healthy and desperately needed competition.
"grotesque", "desperately needed competition", "OS4 customers treated as retards"? Please stop talking in buzzwords and show me a viable alternative. How could Hyperion's demand for a dedicated hardware platform have been fullfilled without the licensing scheme?
By the way, even before Terra Soft became a Mai VAR/distributor (which of course has been anticipated since the first hints that they were testing YDL on the boards), Mai sold the boards themselves, cheaper than Eyetech.
What has that got to do with the topic we're discussing?
Nonsense. The very existence and the development and sales of Teron boards have never been dependent on Eyetech. That's a ludicrous notion.
I never said that. I said that the existence of the AmigaOne (rebranded Teron boards which are bundled with AmigaOS4) has been dependent on some sort of protection.
-
Wake up and smell the coffee...
Actually i've had like 8 cups of coffee already...
All i'm saying is i want to run AOS4 (actually 4.2/4.5 because i don't like some parts beeing 68k code) on my peg. I hope something will be done to the GUI, and yes i think that is as important as the new feauters in AOS.
i wont be posting in this thread from now on, because i feel we are getting nowhere.
-
Besides, just because there are exceptions to the terms of the licensing scheme, like the Phase5 hardware for example, that doesn't mean it's arbitrary. It's a matter of beeing practical. It's the exception that confirms the rule, you know.
-
Beer anyone? Or maybe a soda for those of you, not drinking alcohol? It's on me... :-D
-
The easiest solution would be for Genesi to licence AmigaOS. I don't see why they shouldn't, seeing how many of their customers want it.
Don't say "money", don't say "dongle". You don't know how much this would cost (if anything at all), and the dongle could be a usb plug.
-
Where did you get that information about the Barbie? I never saw any mention of it using an Articia.
Care to comment about the support issue?
-
What i find funny is that Most ppl knew about the license &
That the Pegasos did not have a license for Aos4. But they bought it anyway.
And now they are moaning at Amiga.inc/Hperion for Aos4 support on it.
There maybe another silly bunch who may buy a barbie if it ever comes out.
Even tho they have been told NO AOS4 for that board.
And yet will come moaning at Amiga.inc/Hyperion for Aos4 support on it.
This is exactly what Hyperion has been saying to why you buy authed Hardware or go with out.
10 or so PPC mobos may come out & emails comming from all over the place from ppl who want Aos4 on the mobo they just bought,
with out Hyperion know how many copies they are likley to shift for that mobo & would it be worth the expence & effort.
With out the docs cos that firm did not want to give out its PPC mobo secrets to such a small player. We have seen this already with a make of PCI bussboard & a well known gfx card maker.
I doubt that many here would want to play HALO, but would get a PS2
& then harass M$ for Halo for PS2 cos they didnt like the XBox hardware.
Either you buy the Hardware you dont want & play the Game you do want or you Buy the hardware yo do want & go with out the Game you want.
This sort of thing happends alot.
You rarely get your cake & eat it.
But i see cos Amiga.inc/Hyperion are seen as small players so you think it gives you the right to harass & demand everything that you want from them like a bunch of bullies.
You made your choice so now live with it.
-
Where did you get that information about the Barbie? I never saw any mention of it using an Articia.
articiaS... burrrp... (http://penguinppc.org/dev/pop/DSCF0052.JPG)
:pint:
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@Alkemyst
Sure, but there that was not the way it went for me
(and I don't think I'm alone on this).
When AInc/Hyperion decided that they wouldn't support the Pegasos
(which they did with introducing the licence) they also made the descision
that I will never buy OS4 in any form.
Before April2002 Pegasos+OS4 was what I wanted, but when I had only the
choice between A1+OS4 and Pegasos+MOS it was with no doubt the 2nd
option that was my choice.
One sold copy of OS4 less.
Now alot has happened eversince, and i wouldn't touch OS4 with a stick
even if it would be released "shrink-wrapped" for my board, but that again
is something thta happened due to actions of AInc/Hyperion.
-
@Kronos that your fault for rushing out on what you bought so early on.
And now that we know that you wont touch Aos4/Aone, there is no need for you to worry about it anymore.
-
"rushing out" ??
I can assure you that I haven't rushed anything, I just made a descision
based on what is really there, and what might appear sometimes.
Sofar I haved missed nothing on OS4, and I don't think I will in the
forseeable future.
I also don't worry bout anything, I just can't stand it when people try to
blame Genesi for something decided by AInc/Hyperion.
But the point stands: Hyperion is loosing potential buyers for their OS
every day Genesi sells one board, and they will loose alot more before
they even have somthing to sell.
-
Where did you get that information about the Barbie? I never saw any mention of it using an Articia.
a picture speaks a thousand words.
http://penguinppc.org/dev/pop/DSCF0052.JPG (http://penguinppc.org/dev/pop/DSCF0052.JPG)
heres the URL where I got this picture.
http://penguinppc.org/dev/pop/ (http://penguinppc.org/dev/pop/)
that Rogue is the mia articiaS chipset on that board...
and from what I've read they wont be getting an AOS4 license either...
again I ask my question (wich you answered with another question wich of course is semantics)...... Had management wanted to sell AOS4 retail would it have been hard to bring it to Pegasos/Barbie ?...
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@Kronos still you made your choice now live with it.
I also don't worry bout anything, I just can't stand it when people try to
blame Genesi for something decided by AInc/Hyperion.
It takes 2 to tango.
Its Genesi's fault for deciding not to apply for a license.
But the point stands: Hyperion is loosing potential buyers for their OS
every day Genesi sells one board, and they will loose alot more before
they even have somthing to sell.
Dont worry your self about it OK :) .
You & others have gotten what you payed for so be happy & stop worrying about Aos4 & the Aone.
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This whole thread makes at this time actually no
sense. Hyperion doesn't even have OS4 out for
Classic Amiga (which was reported to have top
priority - however I think that has changed because
OS4 for AmigaOne has been announced to be
launched at Cebit, which doesn't mean that it will not
be sold before according to most people - so the top
priority is now AmigaOne if you ask me when they
want to have it out before March) nor for AmigaOne
at the moment. So I really doubt they have much
time for any other hardware ATM.
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Yeah ...But 2 pci slots ?...NO AGP ?
YUCK
-
The_Editor
its got a fare share of onboard amenities... sound/video/dual gigabit ethernet/dual ide raid/etc... 2 pci slots could add a better video card and a firewire card.
It could be fine.
-
What would drive someone to buy the Barbie and not the Teron board or the Pegasos? The price would have to be incredibly appealing to accept the lack of an AGP slot and only 2 PCI slots. Is it really for sale? Software sells hardware....people keep forgetting this. I know a lot of people that bought the Xbox to play Halo.
What I find hilarious is that people have professed that the Pegasos is so much more superior to the AmigaOne when in reality their specifications are very close. Given that, the Barbie doesn't look like a viable contender in this market.
Oddly enough....I'm sure people would buy it if it ran OS4.0 and the price was right. So here's a case where maybe the board designer should consider a license...unless the demand for the Barbie is already so high that a few more sales to Amiga customers isn't worth the hassle.
-
See I would buy Barbie ...its got many features that would make it nice for a little toy/server... actually its perfect for a server... its PPC so it would run quiet/cool and be reliable...its got IDE raid... it can be put into a 1U easily... and its got dual gigabit nic's...I considerd Barbie a long time ago as a cheap integrated server box for my home LAN...but it isnt out yet...if it ran AOS4 I'd consider it again... of course it wouldnt be ideal for a desktop but for a server it would be just fine...and it would be cool to see what a company like Merlancia/extreme-computing/etc could do to make a nice case for a board like that?... I mean you could cram that board into a very small space and maybe market it as a 0-footprint? I dunno...we may never find out ... but I agree we need to wait because its possible AOS4 might be released retail someday and make its way onto this board... it has a niche...it could be exploited and used for the benefit of the community...
-
So the Barbie isn't available and noone really has an idea of what it would cost. It does look more for the server market as I agree that this is where the PPC has a larger application. I could also point you to a board that is for sale that is based on the PPC8245 from ArtisMicro. Ironically, it's an A3000 ;)
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Samface wrote:
>The Barbie? I'm sorry but that Linux dude is the
>kind of guy that expects others to create software
>specificly for his hardware on their own initiative.
>That's not how it works. If he gets a userbase for
>his hardware than maybe, but that on the other hand
>requires software for it.
Once again here you're completely missing (or dodging?)
the point again...remember you telling us about how
the software defined the platform? How you can use this
ghetto argument to justify the license scenario is
not only silly, but once again contradicts your own
definition of 'platform'.:-P The hardware is just as
important as the software, and has equal defining
imperative, just read your definition if you don't
believe me. This being the case, to unnecessarily
force this decision upon the users is questionable,
considering that even Microsoft allows its users
to choose their hardware (because Microsoft is a
software company, like A - Inc) and also makes the
platform less appealing to new users, observing
especially the social paramemters of the capitalist
'ethos'.
@Rogue
Nobody said that OS4 would just fire up and run
perfect on anything 'pop 3', you kind of missed it
there. The issue was that the ability for the
OS to run on anything but the special Teron (I'm
not counting those old - ass p5 PPC boards, and the
Sharks aren't here yet, 'if' the Sharks run it)
is now not possible due to the license scenario...
if necessary, drivers could be written to adapt
the OS to different hardware configurations, just
like Linux/Windows.
@Madgun
So....why not have both options available?
If those hubcaps had to go only on an '86 escort,
how many people would still buy them, even if they
were totally slick? :-P
Just a general question, is there anybody here
who would totally support a license campaign if
there wasn't one? Since it's been proved that
piracy is not the real issue, would you actually
want to limit the OS instead of allowing the
possibility for different hardware options,
provided the support for drivers?
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Yo -D-!
not only are your views of knowledgable content and wisely versed,
i also dig your avata (tell that aint a J)
blaze one for the nation! :-D :-D
-
LOL! Thanks, 420Dude!:-) It's my version of LX -8,
with a little help from mips_proc and amigaguy's
versions...;)
-
hehehe
-
"This being the case, to unnecessarily
force this decision upon the users is questionable,
considering that even Microsoft allows its users
to choose their hardware."
This was not through their own choice, in fact comparing Microsoft with Amiga Inc is erroneous in the extreme. Microsoft NEVER OWNED the rights the hardware - the bundle was IBM PCs with MSDOS and then IBM struck a deal with Amstrad to produce
compatibles and the whole thing evolved from there.
In fact with XP MicroSoft limits your choice by only
allowing a certain number of hardware changes per
non OEM copy of the OS before a re-registration has to take place.
The starting premise is in fact totally different. The Amiga has come from a closed system and is in a tiny market wheras MicroSoft has been able to capitalise on top of a market that was diverse through (originally) a licensing scheme that was not of its own writing.
You see I don't mind this licensing scheme firstly because moving an OS between different hardware platforms is more than a matter ( same chipset and BIOS aside ) of just drivers.
But the main reason I don't mind it is because it pulled the rug from under BPlan/MorphOS's feet when their advocates were going on about how you would be able to buy a Pegasos *THAT BOOTED BY DEFAULT INTO MORPHOS* and later install AmigaOS if you found that MorphOS was not for you. The marketing slant being similar of course to bundling IE with Windows 9x.
The whole situation exposed what is now Genesi as a business that wanted to use the Pegasos to sell MorphOS and had no interest in selling Pegasos as "Amigas" that shipped with AmigaOS at the exclusion of MorphOS if the consumer so wished.
In fact when I made a formal enquiry about reselling Pegasos boards as AmigaONEs I was told that as a vendor I would not be allowed to unbundle MorphOS and put it through the Amiga Inc. licensing scheme as part of the conditions of a volume purchase.
So, for exposing the anti-competative practices of Genesi alone I think the licensing scheme is worth it.
So, Genesi - CLOSE THAT OPEN HARDWARE eh?
Now, why should Amiga Inc weaken its position and not Genesi hmmmm? Who would possibly want that? Seehund, yes but who is behind him apart from a screaming bunch of MorphOS fanatics and a smaller bunch of AmigaOS fanatics that see the word "open" and worship it like a god.
There are too many business interests thinking they
are being oh-so-clever by only talking about the real deal via e-mail and hiding behind zealouts who spread their marketing propaganda for them ( in the process recruiting others that haven't grown up one bit since being in playground gangs ).
Sure the licensing scheme is there to piss of Genesi and do unto Genesi what Genesi wanted to do unto Amiga Inc with its own bundling scheme.
Good. :-D
-
Back@-D-
did you see (by the way) L8-x's megacool photo of himself, in the parking lot at the end of another workday? its worth a view, i already e-mailed it to several freinds.. Peace@ya God loves you
ps
its in the thread allegedly associating me with drugs (all fiction imaginings of a confessed boring person)
;-)
;-) ;-) ;-)
:-D :-D :-D :
:-D
:-D
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@DaveP
What are you on ?
Yes any Pegasos will ship with MorphOS, just like any Mac
ships with MacOS and every A1 is gonna ship with OS4.
But thats NOT the point of the petition, it is about OS4 being
sold without the HW, to use it on a Pegasos or Mac.
And remember it was Hyperion who talked about running OS4 on Macs
and Pegasos before April. BPlan haven't changed their stance a bit:
If they want to sell their SW for our HW, than they are free to do
it, but we won't give them any special treatment.
Both A1 and Pegasos are NOT closed, it is the OSes that are, and
Genesi atleast haven't ruled out selling MorphOS shrink-wrapped for
A1 or Mac.
-
"Just a general question, is there anybody here
who would totally support a license campaign if
there wasn't one?"
Yep.
" Since it's been proved that
piracy is not the real issue, "
Has anyone *proven* that? I see a lot of speculation. Frankly I don't really care if it is.
"would you actually
want to limit the OS instead of allowing the
possibility for different hardware options,
provided the support for drivers? "
The only limit is the motherboard and chipsets supported. You are not limited ( unlike with MicroSoft ) by third party cards and not even in processor.
Here is the real question, given the Amiga "community" can't even muster the enthusiasm for porting browers and the like and Genesi is terrified of Open Hardware ( Bill Bucks fear of PPC Linux sales of the Teron CX and call
for Amiga Inc to abandon the AmigaONE to close
the marketplace to custom ( Pegasos ) solutions) do you think the availability of AmigaOS would increase on different platforms?
You see insufficient Mac users use Linux to even get Mandrake upgraded from 8.2 or to even port it themselves. Average Joes buy Macs to use MacOS not to install an OS that has less support and has less exposure as a brand than MacOS. Those that want free beer buy cheap PC hardware and either run the OEM OS ( Windows ) or download and install Linux.
There is this mythical market that Seehund and the MOS fanatics seem to pluck out of thin air to support their arguments every time someone criticises the petition or the PR damage that it is doing to Amiga Inc.
Call me a cynic but I think Seehund just wanted to cause maximum PR damage to Amiga Inc in favour of Genesi and not for the "open" reasons that he states but I don't expect him to admit it for at least a year has gone by.
Where was he complaining about Genesi when Bill Buck made his infamous anti-Linux and anti-open PPC public plea?
-
DaveP it isnt a matter of 'Genesi' its a matter of AOS not bieng retail...and limiting the solutions to just the AmigaOne G3/G4 models.....I dont want an AmigaOne I'd prefer a Pegasos or Barbie to the A1.... and AOS4 could easily have gotten onto those two boards....I'm not gonna sit and say that Genesi wanted to sacrifice MOS to make A.inc happy...of course not...they want their OS to succeed and with good reason they actually put hard work into it... so they care about it...
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@Kronos
"What are you on ?"
Excuse me, why the personal insult?
"Yes any Pegasos will ship with MorphOS, just like any Mac
ships with MacOS and every A1 is gonna ship with OS4."
So the Pegasos is really a MorphOS boxen? That is interestingly the first time anyone has come out and admitted that. That it isn't an "open PPC bit of hardware".
"But thats NOT the point of the petition, it is about OS4 being sold without the HW, to use it on a Pegasos or Mac."
Kronos, you haven't read through what I wrote properly have you? I addressed this point.
"Genesi atleast haven't ruled out selling MorphOS shrink-wrapped for
A1 or Mac."
Amiga Inc haven't ruled out selling it for the Pegasos or Mac. Genesi ruled out selling AmigaOS4 for the Pegasos ( see my post properly this time ). If someone comes up with a serious business proposal and aren't just a back bedroom in West London ( like Pegasos-UK ) then they will evaluate it.
But "not ruling out" is like throwing a sop to the masses. Show me the money.
-
Genesi ruled out selling AmigaOS4 for the Pegasos
Yes and I'm sure Apple would rule out selling AOS,MOS or Linux for Macs.
(o.k. maybe not Linux).
But do they rule out letting someone else doing an OS and sell it for their HW ?
And again both boards are open, cos you can run whatever SW you like on it.
Do you really think AInc would allow the Pegasos to be sold with MOS and OS4 ?
Without paying the "A1-the-name" licence fees ?
It is AInc's and only AInc's (+Hyperion) descicion on what HW
their OS gets ported, and they won't do it for the Mac or the Pegasos,
so they are the ones responsible for the lack of choice.
Hiding behind an obscure licence-scheme won't change that, but it
sure make a hell of a good PR.
-
"DaveP it isnt a matter of 'Genesi' its a matter of AOS not bieng retail.."
We were discussing the licensing scheme. I said that I backed the licensing scheme because it put Amiga Inc on an equal footing with Genesi and exposed Genesi's anti-competative stance on the Pegasos.
".and limiting the solutions to just the AmigaOne G3/G4 models..."
Which they have not done. They have limited the solution to licensed hardware. That is people that are a real business with real money and a good plan. That licensed hardware could be anything.
"..I dont want an AmigaOne I'd prefer a Pegasos or Barbie to the A1.... and AOS4 could easily have gotten onto those two boards...."
Care to give us a step by step guide?
"I'm not gonna sit and say that Genesi wanted to sacrifice MOS to make A.inc happy...of course not..."
Who said they had to? We all moaned about Microsoft when they said that they had to be the only pre-installed OS on PC hardware, we all moaned about MicroSoft when they bundled IE as the primary browser with Win9x at the exclusion of others but I don't see the same people moaning about Genesis' stance on MOS preload and MOS bundling.
There is nothing in this licensing scheme stopping Pegasos being sold as a MOSBOX ( whatever ) or an AOS4 box. It is Genesi that at least up until the last time I tried, EXCLUDE the ability to unbundle MOS from volume resales if that resale is to be Pegasos with AOS4 as the first booting OS.
"they want their OS to succeed and with good reason they actually put hard work into it... so they care about it..."
Sure, and that does them credit. But what it does not do is excuse their hypocritical stance of AmigaOS4 which the "Amiga cartel" has put a lot of hard work into as well that THEY equally want to succeed. IF motives excuse behaviour how come they, you and others are so selective about who it applies to?
You see I see a lot of "parasitic marketing" mumbo jumbo from Luca and Bouma but what is parasitic is the hypothetical situation of selling Pegasos's as Amigas including AmigaOS in the package but the default pre-install is an alternative OS which the company would rather sell. This was what was being forced on myself and one other prospective vendor at least.
If the licensing scheme was invented PURELY for the reasons of countering that marketing scenario then it was worth it for that alone.
In the meantime shrink wrapped AmigaOS packages are not economically viable. Look how long it has taken Hyperion to get this far with just Blizzard, Cyberstorm and AmigaONE GE/XE platforms to support. To provide a "one package boots on all" might have taken them a century at this rate.
:-P
-
@DaveP
There is a tiny difference between M$-bundling and the Pegasos.
M$ forces their SW on someelses HW, (just like AInc tries with the licence),
while Genesi produce ONE product consisting of HW&SW. Doesn't mean you
couldn't run any other OS on it, or that retailers wouldn't be
allowed to bundle a 2nd OS to it (something M$ doesn't allow).
-
I think that instead of the pegasos we should be discussing all the Teron board owners who although they'll have identical boards will not be able to buy or run AmigaOS on their machines. This is market lost for no good reason.
-
"Yes and I'm sure Apple would rule out selling AOS,MOS or Linux for Macs.
(o.k. maybe not Linux)."
Yep. So wheres the problem again? I don't see you pressuring Apple into providing a ubiquitous MacOS CD to run on all PPC hardware past and present??!?
"But do they rule out letting someone else doing an OS and sell it for their HW ?"
No, and nor do Amiga Inc.
"And again both boards are open, cos you can run whatever SW you like on it."
Not to Vendors.
"Do you really think AInc would allow the Pegasos to be sold with MOS and OS4 ?"
No. But they won't stop ( apart from the MOS is illegal protestations of the Fleecy and Bill puppet show ) Pegasos being sold with MOS on its own, but Genesi want to stop Pegasos being sold with AOS on its own - OR EVEN ( get this ) with AOS preinstalled but with MOS in the package.
The acceptable face of closing the system?
"Without paying the "A1-the-name" licence fees ?"
What is your source for the "license fees" bit. Nothing is publically known about this AFAIK. The fact that you say "A1 the-name" means that this sticks in your throat but is still irrelevant. Apple owns the name of Macintosh ( well for computer hardware and software bundles that is ) do you object to them too?
"It is AInc's and only AInc's (+Hyperion) descicion on what HW
their OS gets ported, and they won't do it for the Mac or the Pegasos,
so they are the ones responsible for the lack of choice."
They are not stopping anyone from taking out a license to do so and have said so publically.
"Hiding behind an obscure licence-scheme won't change that, but it sure make a hell of a good PR."
Trying to divert attention onto Amiga Incs practices to allow Genesi's anti-competitive practices and stance to continue won't change that but it sure makes a hell of a good PR.
No one is "hiding" behind a licence scheme. There is no need to hide. Genesi are the ones not allowing AmigaOS4 to be sold for their board and not allowing ( at the moment at least ) any vendor to adhere to the Amiga Inc licensing conditions either.
-
DaveP so you think that if they release OS4 for Pegasos it will somehow be to Genesi's 'advantage?" ...I dont...it will be to eyetech's disadvantage thats for sure...alot less would probably buy the A1....but on the other hand alot less would run MorphOS...as is... people like Kronos/Me/etc will just buy Peggys and run MOS and wait...wich dosent have an advantage for anyone but Genesi.
IF motives excuse behaviour how come they, you and others are so selective about who it applies to?
see you define OEM bundles as 'parasitic' ... I dont... I view rom'ing/etc as parasitic...because it limits the communitys choices...
-
@Kronos
Agreed. It is a tiny difference. However I have to point out that not seperating OS/370 from the System 370 in exactly the same way that Genesi is doing at the moment ( allowed other OS but IBMs OS/370 had to be preinstalled as 1st OS ) is what made IBM fall foul of the anti-competative laws in the USA.
In fact the IBM settlement meant that not only did the OS have to be seperable from the hardware but the OS itself had to be broken up into modular parts ( DFSMS, CS/370, BCOS etc ) and the public interfaces published to allow third parties to bundle.
Sure the Amiga Inc licensing scheme is "anti-competative" but so is Genesi's and Genesis anti-competative stance was there first ;-)
-
I don't see you pressuring Apple into providing a ubiquitous MacOS CD to run on all PPC hardware past and present??!?
I'm surely not presuring anybody here, I just don't like it when
people try to blame Genesi for something that is AIncs descicion.
I don't see Steve Jobs running around an claiming that you could
just licence OSX to non-Apple-HW.
If AIncs wants their OS to run on something else than the A1, than
they have to make it available. Simple logic.
"A1-the-name-licence"
Nothing known ?
Just reread all the ExecUps and statements by Ben Alan and you would find this.
OS4-licence is free.
But doesn't allow the HW to be called AmigaOne.
Alan: All licencec paid.
And even more, so yes putting the name Amiga on something does cost, and
according to everything that is publicly known it will be the major
income for AInc from the whole OS4-project.
And again, show me any proof the Genesi are not allowing anybody to
port any OS !!
All that is need for this is a board and some documentation, and as
long as that was all that Hyperion demande I was right behind them,
but THEY are it who are adding extra preconditions to such a port
not Genesi.
-
"DaveP so you think that if they release OS4 for Pegasos it will somehow be to Genesi's 'advantage?'"
Yes, of course. Because more people will buy Pegasos boards but because of the Genesi bundling scheme the OS that boots up straight away and has that all important "line of sight" real estate will be MOS. In fact I wouldnt be surprised if there was no spare space prepped on the HD to allow AOS to be installed without reprepping and you might as well use MOS for that... Once people start using MOS the less likely they are to get around to installing AOS until much later. Not necessarily because it is better but because that is the way life works.
" ...I dont...it will be to eyetech's disadvantage thats for sure.."
Yes, I am sure but Eyetechs disadvantage is not mutually exclusive from Genesis advantage.
".alot less would probably buy the A1..."
Maybe. Interesting but not pertinent to the argument of first position bundling schemes like Genesis.
".but on the other hand alot less would run MorphOS...as is... "
I don't agree. But see above.
"people like Kronos/Me/etc will just buy Peggys and run MOS and wait...wich dosent have an advantage for anyone but Genesi."
As is your right and more power to you.
"see you define OEM bundles as 'parasitic' ... I dont... I view rom'ing/etc as parasitic...because it limits the communitys choices..."
How does limiting choice equal parasitic behaviour? Line Of Sight or First Position Bundling is standard parasitic marketing, sheesh I only spent a secondment in marketing and even I know that. I mean even look at the dictionary definition of "parasite".
Anti-competativeness comes from licensing schemes like Genesis bundling and the Amiga Inc scheme when from a dominant position in a given market ( e.g. the Amiga market ).
Parasitic schemes I have already defined as logically equivalent to "heres your coke, but first you have to drink pepsi to get to the coke at the back of the crate". Sure, you thought you were buying Coke but you were buying the right to drink Coke after you had drunk a Pepsi.
-
The problem has been that Bill Buck, along with BPlan/Genesi, have been serving lies about the AmigaOne and OS4. Amiga Inc with Hyperion and Eyetech are clearing this out, and will put and end to
the Bill Buck-inspired lies. Bill Buck and BPlan/Genesi are very scared now because they know their lies are about to be exposed really soon, and then they will look like a bunch of big fools!
If you want truth, then Amiga Inc, Hyperion and Eyetech are the only one to listen to...
-
AInc and the thruth ? I thought those were mutaly exclusive .....
And what lies ? That the MAI-NB is quite buggy ?
That Eyetechs/MAIs fix isn't the end of it all ?
"Switch of DMA" was the advices given for someone with a "fixed" board.
Or that OS4 won't make it to the targeted deadlines in May or
December ? Well show me your OS4 !!
Genesi have a product to sell while the other side has only
overpriced linux-systems and pre-pay-coupons.
That is the simple thruth.
-
I don't see Steve Jobs running around an claiming that you could
just licence OSX to non-Apple-HW.
Because he stopped all that, CLOSING the platform. In fact you could take it that he is not as OPEN as Amiga Inc ;-)
If AIncs wants their OS to run on something else than the A1, than
they have to make it available. Simple logic.
Chop logic more like. You could say "If Genesi wants the premier Amiga OS to run on its hardware then they should pay the cost of porting it". Perhaps you do not know how Microsoft and Intel work? They have a business deal ( like the license ) that means that when Intel comes up with a new chipset they part fund the cost of upgrading Windows to run on it OR they ensure that the chipset is 100% compatible with the kernel.
"A1-the-name-licence"
Nothing known ?
Just reread all the ExecUps and statements by Ben Alan and you would find this.
Link precisely to the facts where they say that you have to pay fees to enter the scheme?
And again, show me any proof the Genesi are not allowing anybody to
port any OS !!
Show me where I said that Genesi are not allowing anybody to port any OS? I hesistate to rewrite what I did say because I have repeated it several times now and I am not sure that you have read it now.
All that is need for this is a board and some documentation, and as
long as that was all that Hyperion demande I was right behind them,
but THEY are it who are adding extra preconditions to such a port
not Genesi.
What like seeking Genesi's signature on a license?
Porting is a seperable issue. I am talking about what the deal is once a port has been done. Genesi will not allow any reseller to unbundle MOS which conflicts with the licensing terms of AOS - which as you rightly said (paraphrase) if you sell a Mac as a Mac then it should boot into MacOS. If you sell an Amiga as an Amiga then it should boot into AmigaOS and not be forced to boot into a foreign OS.
THAT is the sticking point. But you persist on putting all the blame on Amiga Inc, Hyperion or whoever.
I cannot go into business selling Pegasos booting into AmigaOS4 until Genesi backs down from putting conditions on vendors that deliberately conflict with business sense and the licensing agreement.
I want to see Pegasos as AmigaONEs booting into AmigaOS4 but it is Genesi that shot the plan in the foot, NOT Amiga Inc.
( Edit: correct typo read -> rewrite )
-
Your choice to what to believe. The Articia HAS been fixed. What have be done to the XE is that the ARM-slot has been removed and improving the audio features of the motherboard, and it only gave Eyetech more time to make sure that there are no more problems with the motherboards, which there are not...
I got the mail from Fleecy stating this, and i was also told that the OS4 is just now closing in for release, with an update to the user spesification, and people will be amazed of how much work has been put into it!
THAT's the whole truth! Now your choice of belief is up to you. You decide your own path. Truth or lie, the choice is your alone, and your problem alone. Don't blame others if you pick the wrong choice! Sorry...
-
@Helgis75
Seeing Amiga Inc and cartel as some White Knight with a Sword Of Truth helps no-one. Nor does accusing Bill Buck of deliberately spreading lies.
Bill doesn't have to, there are plenty of people on ANN that do that.
-
Unfortunately, many at ANN may be MorphOS-fans. That's the problem. For Amiga it's important to show people their true faith and spirit in the Amiga. That's why they have to convince people about their truth.
This is important, but when their products are actually out early February, then you will all see the truth they have tried to make everyone being convinced of...
I get mails from Fleecy and Ben Herman quite often, and they really are telling me what's going on...When you are a true, loyal Amiga-fan, and you have the faith in the new owners, of course you get this kind of positive responses and feedbacks...with the certain truth of informations...
-
This are your exact words:
"Genesi are the ones not allowing AmigaOS4 to be ported to their board...."
No I'm not gonna search the whole net for a few quotes, but you can
explain to my why the A1 cost more than a Teron from TerraSoft ?
Or how AInc is gonna make some money on this when the OS-licence
is free and they are getting very little for OS4 itself (according to Ben H.).
AInc should decide what they want:
a) Sell A1/OS4 as "full" systems, which limits them to HW-vendors
very close to them.
b) Sell OS4 for "every suitable HW" which is impossible with the current licence.
The Pegasos is Genesi's product, and they decide to whom they sell it
under what conditions.
OS4 is(will be) AIncs/Hyperion#s product and THEY decide how they are
gonna sell it. And not HW-vendors refusing to sign a licence.
But thats all just rethorics, cos the current situation allows
Genesi's market-share to grow, and it will be very hard for OS4
to compensate that headstart without compromising on the licence.
-
@-D-
So....why not have both options available?
If those hubcaps had to go only on an '86 escort,
how many people would still buy them, even if they
were totally slick?
Sure. That'd be nice if that option was available. At this point in time, however, it's not.
I don't totally agree with everything that's being done with the A1/AOS. That doesn't mean, though, that I should take up arms against it as a whole and side with Genesi, which it seems some have done.
Genesi have been playing it very cool. They seem (imo) to be saying just enough to make them appear to be more open than Hyperion/A.Inc.
'Morphos runs on unmodified Teron boards' Cool. It can. Can I buy Morphos to run on it? Not at this time. Will I be able to in the future? Who knows. And that's the point. We all know full well what it takes to run AmigaOS 4.x. All I really know about Morphos at the moment are what *can* be done, not will be done. Yet (some) people assume that can == will and therefore we should all side with Genesi.
AOS 4 isn't out yet. Until it is, I see no reason (for myself) to make a firm commitment one way or the other. Do I want to run AOS4.x and therefore lean towards A1/AOS? Sure. Until both are on the shelves, I do believe that I have the free will to change my decision at any point.
There is no red pill. There is no blue pill. There isn't a right answer that fits all.
As a side note, there are limits for the classic users on both sides right now too. AOS will not support the Grexx and Morphos doesn't do much for users of Elbox products. (EEK! More limitations?! B@#t*%ds!)
Anyways.. My 2 cents worth.
-
@Helgis75
Why dont you tell your heros to act professional and update their websites,
As for the "Anyone that says anything negative about the Amiga are MorphOS fans" is just pathetic.
-
Fleecy have asked Alan to update their website about the reason for the delay. They are just quite busying completing their work for the final release, promised for early February....
-
It's certainly even more pathetic to don't believe the only true people owing the right to bring the Amiga into the future, Amiga Inc, Hyperion and Eyetech.
Do not listen to Bill Buck-inspired lies, and the BPlan/Genesi. If you are a true Amiga-fan, you will know the right...
-
Fleecy have asked Alan to update their website
What kind of (so called) professional company needs to be told to update it`s website?
Madness.
-
Right...it's even unnecessary, cause they know they do an excellent job...It's just the people not being fan of AmigaOS, but MorphOS-fan, who want to listen to Bill Buck-inspired lies trying to hunt and track down the AmigaOne and OS4....
-
@Paul_Gadd on 2003/1/12
yo sorry to see youve been put in a cell
here... what you need? let me pass ya some o dat good weed...
also, just because you are an amigan, i will assemble a team for you and you may well be under the blue skys two days from now....
....(unless your avatar is of a facade and you are doin fine already snug with your bong(or whatevers your "bag" dude..))
:roflmao:
:ranting: :ranting: :ranting:
:roflmao:
:shocked: :shocked: :shocked:
:roflmao:
:pissed: :madashell: :pissed:
:roflmao:
-
"Genesi are the ones not allowing AmigaOS4 to be ported to their board...."
OK fair enough, that was a typing error. I went back and corrected it now. It was supposed to be AmigaOS4 port to be sold with their board.
No I'm not gonna search the whole net for a few quotes,
Then you cannot claim to have substantiated your assertion.
but you can
explain to my why the A1 cost more than a Teron from TerraSoft ?
Straying from the point somewhat eh?
Firstly this was because the Vendor ( in this case Eyetech ) can order in volume and resell cheaper than an individual board purchase from the manufacturers, but now a market has been opened up in theory ( interest shown on Slashdot etc ) then other vendors are in on the act who expect to sell in greater numbers so the base board costs less from them. Simple economics. If you are prepared to put in a volume order or the manufacturer believes they are going to sell in volume then the marketing evaluation of the price will drop significantly.
Or how AInc is gonna make some money on this when the OS-licence
is free and they are getting very little for OS4 itself (according to Ben H.).
I don't know. I can speculate it is because AInc don't expect to make money on AOS4 and see it is an effort to keep a developer community there that was slipping away and probably still will. Perhaps it is a loss leader. I am nothing to do with Amiga Inc however so I can do nothing more than speculate. I am certainly not an Amiga Inc apologist.
AInc should decide what they want:
a) Sell A1/OS4 as "full" systems, which limits them to HW-vendors
very close to them.
Looks like they have done (a).
b) Sell OS4 for "every suitable HW" which is impossible with the current licence.
Not really impossible, hindered maybe. If you think there is a suitable HW platform out there and you are prepared to pay or do the porting then you can license it for that HW if you have a business plan. This is the real world of business deals in a tight market Kronos. You have to be able to walk the talk and all that.
The Pegasos is Genesi's product, and they decide to whom they sell it under what conditions.
whilst decrying others who take exactly the same stance. Like below.
OS4 is(will be) AIncs/Hyperion#s product and THEY decide how they are
gonna sell it. And not HW-vendors refusing to sign a licence
Ill sign the license AND PAY FOR THE PORT but it is GENESI that are PREVENTING ME ... THE VENDOR ... FROM DOING SO IN A RESALE AGREEMENT SEE ALL MY POSTS UP TO NOW.
Sorry to shout but I don't seem to be getting through to you quite what limitations Genesi is putting on prospective vendors. I don't give a flying f**k if Genesi don't want to sign up but they are stopping all resellers from signing up. They are in effect dictating how the "Pegasos" can be resold, in fact deliberately it appears to stop AOS4 and Pegasos bundles from appearing on the market.
But thats all just rethorics, cos the current situation allows
Genesi's market-share to grow, and it will be very hard for OS4
to compensate that headstart without compromising on the licence.
I don't think compromising on the license has anything to do with it. Getting a product out of the door has EVERYTHING to do with it.
MorphOS will either be a passing phase or it will become the competitor OS to AmigaOS. It will only dominate the Amiga market IF no copies of AmigaOS4 appear this year.
-
@Helgis75
What has Bill Buck got to do with a company not updating it`s website?
Next you will be blaming Buck for the delay of G4 chips,
@420Dude
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
-
blah screw this post...
-
It will only dominate the Amiga market IF no copies of AmigaOS4 appear this year.
Or if Genesi show a working eclipsis.
Or if more MOS-SW appears than for OS4.
Or if Eyetech fail to deliever (again).
Or if MOS is vastly superior to OS4.
-
the eclipsis intrests me quite a bit... Kronos have you heard anything about it?
-
Ehm, sorry but Genesi don't restrict what you can
run on their boards. They just don't want to sign
anything with Amiga Inc. cause the last thing they
signed was a miserable failiure on the A Inc. part.
-
@Mips_proc
"A1 is a Board not a full system... people are ordering motherboards...thats far from a full system."
Sure there is a delay between getting the hardware and the OS but you get both eventually apparently including the firmware update which allows the license to be adhered to. I am sure Amiga Inc. didn't want it that way and nor do Eyetech but it is hardly the norm but at least does demonstrate that flexibility is possible in extremis ( as with all business deals ).
It still doesn't change the point, AInc have decided on (a) as the business norm.
Anyway, this seems to be pretty exhausted and Ive said all I meant to ( and more ) today so catch you guys later in the week.
:-D
@Amigr
"Ehm, sorry but Genesi don't restrict what you can
run on their boards. They just don't want to sign
anything with Amiga Inc. cause the last thing they
signed was a miserable failiure on the A Inc. part."
Please go and read back through what I have said.
Last I was involved:
For resellers:
1. They restrict you from modifying what the board boots up into, it has to boot into MorphOS which contradicts the licensing agreement from Amiga Inc.
2. I am not asking them to sign up with Amiga Inc, I am (was) asking them to drop their anti-competative bundling clause so that other vendors can bulk buy Pegasos products and resell them as AmigaONEs.
-
AInc have decided on (a) as the business norm.
well then tell me at what point they plan to sell a 'full system' ?... I mean 'case/motherboard/OS/memory/drives/etc' I mean a FULL solution... not just a DIY motherboard and OS.
remember your claiming 'A.inc' a professed 'software only' company is going to sell 'full' solutions in hardware and software?.....that makes no sense at all.
-
Everything related to AmigaOne and OS4 are actually great news. It only means they got further improved, which you will see at the end...
Anyway, i definitely don't mind waiting a bit longer...as i have been waiting almost ten years for a new next-generation Amiga-platform...
People remember that Bill Buck served them with lies and tracking down AmigaOne and OS4 with bad arguments...That's the same thing MorphOS-people did, too, cause they believe in BPlan/Genesi...Sad but true...
In february when the AmigaOne and OS4 are actually out, BPlan/Genesi and Bill Buck will look like fools, cause they are pretty scared to be exposed for their lies..which will be exposed really soon...
And yes, Eyetech could have updated the news about the delay, but they have simply been very busying in just completing the improvements of the AmigaOne XE-motherboards...Please just relax!
-
"remember your claiming 'A.inc' a professed 'software only' company is going to sell 'full' solutions in hardware and software?.....that makes no sense at all."
No because I never knowingly made that claim.
Are you suggesting that I think that Amiga Inc is going to sell AmigaONEs through its online store?
I pointed out that they are licensing Hardware and Software solutions and that is the knub and crux of the license. It has to be an AmigaONE bundle.
As to when, who fricking even knows ( as I HAVE said already this thread ), but I would suggest that it's vendors will sell them as the licensed bundles as and when AOS4 is released.
I really must go! Its daylight and I have things to do.
-
Yeah Eyetech the wonderfull Amiga company who expects it`s customers to all subscribe to the AmigaOne mailing list for announcements about hardware people have ordered,
A professional company my arse,
Update your WEBSITE.
-
Paul_Gadd wrote:
Yeah Eyetech the wonderfull Amiga company who expects it`s customers to all subscribe to the AmigaOne mailing list for announcements about hardware people have ordered,
A professional company my arse,
Update your WEBSITE.
I agree with you on only one point; for Eyetech to update their website. The rest is just a bunch of crap...! I sense a bit of jealousity from you...
Eyetech has done and incredible job, and i must say this is one of the very best Amiga-hardware companies ever!!!!! You should thanks them for developing the AmigaOne-platform!!!
Anyway, good luck with your path...
-
Jealous of a company who can not even lets its customers know what is going on? yeah i am so Jealous,
Good luck to you :-)
-
Is there anything constructive at all coming from this thread, all I see is that it is creating an opportunety for a small group of people to publically bicker with each other while constantly reusing the same arguments over and over and over and ... ?
I know that this is a public forum but hasen't the subjects beeing raised in this thread been discussed to death in it?
My suggestion is that this tread should be closed, there will be plenty of opportuneties latre on to drag all of this up again and once more have an 100+ posting thread.
-
Eric certainly has a point there. It's starting to overflow, and the thread should be closed...
-
They DIDN'T rule out dual booting with MOS.
They just don't want a box with AmigaOS4 only.
-
@Helgis75
Sorry to rain into your parade, but Eyetech haven't developed
the A1 !! That has been done by MAI and the PPCBoot-team (with
some help from Hyperion).
When Eyetech tried to develop an A1 it only ended in a desaster
(the Escena-thingy). Eyetech are just a reseller, and that all
they gone be. Don't know if they are good or bad at this, but a
reseller is all they are.
Real Amiga-HW-companies are Matay,DCE,Elbox,Individual,E3B and even Genesi/bPlan.
-
I have NO faith in Amiga Inc anymore.
You say that BB is a liar and at the same time you say
that Amiga Inc are telling the truth about everything!
Does NOT compute.
Are THESE truths:
"OS4 is near completation" (last year, about the
"inhouse" OS4 they were "developing")
"The Escena AmigaOne is almost ready"
"We will sue the MorphOS team"
"MorphOS is illegal".
Let alone the coupon issue. They are CLOWNS.
Rethink what you wrote in a year. You'll see who's
lying about some issues.
-
And who is a true Amiga fan? Somebody that worships Amiga Inc or someone who supported
the market and bought any products to do that
while Amiga Inc or ANY Amiga Inc was scratching
it's butt?
Sorry, my friend but a true Amiga fan cares about the
Amiga companies and the Amiga market, not Amiga
Inc. solely.
-
We'll see...at the end, all of you who have been listening to Bill Buck/BPlan/Genesi will end up like fools because of serving lies about the AmigaOne and OS4...People know better than that...
At least there is a great faith in the new owners of the Amiga than any other owners in the past! Remember a lot of people have already put a lot of money in ordering the AmigaOne, so you can picture it yourself and ask yourself why the interest for the AmigaOne/OS4 is so huge! This really tells the tale!
Trying to blame Amiga Inc and their partners with NO good reasons just because they actually do an excellent job is pointless and far too pathetic! I am not the only one awaiting the AmigaOne. There are actually many, including my new Norwegian Kay!
This should clear it out, i guess!
-
Eyetech didn't develop ANYTHING. They are a distributor of a board made by Mentor Arc Inc (MAI)
with a bios from Hyperion.
-
Sorry...my new Norwegian buddy, Kay...
-
I don't know what's your problem is, and i understand if you have been giving up waiting, if you have been waiting for years, but you are blaming the wrong Amiga-companies...
I optain no problems with the new owners, really! They really do an incredible job, and i am very proud of them! They always tell me excatly what's going on when i ask them through mails. And i also asked Fleecy to tell Alan to update their page about the delay, and this is excatly what Alan is going to do...Please understand that these companies are currently very busying in ending the final production of the AmigaOne and OS4, so the delay was just actually good news, due to further improvments and deeply-focused working to assume that all the problems with the motherboards earlier have been completely eliminated, which is actually the case!
If some of you disbelieving people had followed the news about the AmigaOne from pages linked to Amiga Inc, Eyetech and Hyperion, then you would pop in here and blame the whole Amiga-community just because you are bored to the whole situation, and don't have better things to do than bluppering and ranting with your anger to no reason!
-
To put it out short. If you followed the news closely, you wouldn't have to pop in here blaming the companies when they actually are doing all their best for the Amiga-community, which is the case...
-
I think this thread is to big..should be deleted or shut down :P
-
Helgis75 wrote:
We'll see...at the end, all of you who have been listening to Bill Buck/BPlan/Genesi will end up like fools because of serving lies about the AmigaOne and OS4...People know better than that...
--
I didn't spread any lies about the AOne or OS4.
And keep in mind that the stuff about Genesi sueing
Amiga Inc isn't a lie and it isn't for a minor case.
At least there is a great faith in the new owners of the Amiga than any other owners in the past!
--
Yep, there's a faith that they are clowns. At least they
contracted some serious people to do the job.
Remember a lot of people have already put a lot of money in ordering the AmigaOne, so you can picture it yourself and ask yourself why the interest for the AmigaOne/OS4 is so huge! This really tells the tale!
--
So, Amiga Inc is responsible for all that? LoL:)
Trying to blame Amiga Inc and their partners with NO good reasons just because they actually do an excellent job is pointless and far too pathetic!
--
I didn't blame their partners. Amiga Inc alone.
Ok, I did blame Eyetech for lying on the bug issue
but that's a different matter. They claimed that it's
all fud and that there's no bug and a week after that
they posted that they now have a fix. You can't fix
a non-existing bug, can you?
I am not the only one awaiting the AmigaOne. There are actually many, including my new Norwegian Kay!
--
So? What's your point?
This should clear it out, i guess!
--
Hm.
-
mips_proc wrote:
I think this thread is to big..should be deleted or shut down :P
I actually agree. This is starting to overflow! Why can't people just be patient, and actually wait until February to see what will actually happen...?
-
I followed the news more closely and internally than you might think.
Amiga Inc doing their best for the Amiga community?
Ok... If you say so... They EXPLOITED IT in the WORST
way...
I didn't give up waiting about anything... I use MorphOS and I'll use OS4 in parallel when it gets released.
I just don't like the AmigaONE motherboard for my own reasons. I will not buy it for these reasons.
-
Alright y'all, You heard Sparkey:
post no more on this thread!
eventually (hopefull soon..) we will all find out what was going on all along for ourselves....
we have faith we wont despair, (untill we get an official apology:Bill"sorry folks that would be all, no more new amigas ever again- we sold the rigths to some fish and al of a sudden he dissappeared!)
time will show if,
hell awaits....
-
How ironic, AmigaOne is actually very similar to the Pegasos...Saying that you don't want the AmigaOne but the Pegasos doesn't make it a fair argument!
And the new Amiga-companies are actually concentrating more on the working-issue than wasting a lot of time in talking like politicans..!
Would you want them to just address a lot of things, and not being able to do anything?! I think NOT!
Think about about that the next time you open your mouth...AmiGR!
[ :madashell: :pissed:
-
Message to all of you: Enough of this thread! No reason to waste a lot of time on stuffs that have been served over and over and over again!
It's enough! Talk about something else! If any of you don't like AmigaOne/AmigaOS 4.0, then make up your very own MorphOS/Pegasos-site, or a pure PC-site, but NOT here!!!
Any further messages linked to this thread, will be closed right off, and not by me..but the person responsible for this site..!
Goodbye and good night! The thread is OFF!!!
-
How ironic, AmigaOne is actually very similar to the Pegasos...Saying that you don't want the AmigaOne but the Pegasos doesn't make it a fair argument!
--
Very similar but not the same. As I said, I've got my
own reasons for my choice. I've got the right to choose
and I don't need anyone to question my choice.
And the new Amiga-companies are actually concentrating more on the working-issue than wasting a lot of time in talking like politicans..!
--
Yeah, right. I guess you missed Fleecy and Bill's "PR"...
Would you want them to just address a lot of things, and not being able to do anything?! I think NOT!
--
Excuse me? Are you serious? I don't ask them to be
in the forums all day but some REAL PR wouldn't
hurt.
Think about about that the next time you open your mouth...AmiGR!
--
I think more than you believe.
:smack:
-
Good, then start to prove it..buddy..:-). Why don't relax and just wait and see what will actually happen, instead of wasting time with bluppering here and there just because you get bored of doing something else that could have been a lot more useful!
Again, enough of this thread...I'm pissed off with it! It starting to get really anoying, and not just for me..!
-
You should know that, AmiGR, that MorphOS is not working quite correctly, as the last time it was tested under a show, the pointer was jumping all over the screen, and the screen was flickering badly!
This never happens to AmigaOS! Anyway, your choice is your choice. I don't care...But tracking down AmigaOS/AmigaOne-fans doesn't help you!
Again, enough it is...Bye...Time to close the thread!
-
You know, Helgis75... if you really want this thread to end, that means YOU have to stop posting to it!! :roflmao:
-
Right...thank you for the advice---T-Bone...
Can we make a new thread? Like "My Mothers' Lovely Cooking"? :-D
-
I didn't blame their partners. Amiga Inc alone.
Ok, I did blame Eyetech for lying on the bug issue
but that's a different matter. They claimed that it's
all fud and that there's no bug and a week after that
they posted that they now have a fix. You can't fix
a non-existing bug, can you?
Oh, as if both sides aren't guilty of spin.
Ever think that Eyetech said there wasn't a bug because they knew the issue was being fixed? I seriously doubt that MAI implemented fixes for the chipset in one week. (And since Eyetech is partnered with MAI, they would have known about it.)
Wouldn't one also think that Genesi would have some insight in to the fix too? Seems that if they're doing good good business with MAI they would have been told about it.. Yet they put all the spin around the "april" fix and make it appear that the Teron boards aren't going to function properly without it.
"We'll work with you guys if you use our boards instead of theirs." - Yeah.. Wait until after all the contracts are made and such, then announce something like this. I have a good feeling that Genesi KNEW that they wouldn't do it. But hey, look, those guys don't want to cooperate with us.
There's more to a lake than the surface of the water.
-
HAH! The last time it was on show was at the Aachen show, with 30 machines running it nicely.
Check your facts. The pointer was jumping cause
debug was on and (afaik) driver probs on that show
you were talking about. MorphOS is running QUITE
nicely and everyday, more people are able to tell you.
But tracking down AmigaOS/AmigaOne-fans doesn't help you!
--
You don't know me and neither you know if I do what
you say.
-
Well, i don't care about MorphOS...I'm sorry for this thread, but there is also another person waiting for the AmigaOne G4-XE as me...and his name is simply Kay...:-)
I have nothing further to say about this. It's starting to sound quite childish...
-
Look, you sound like a wise and nice guy at the deeper end. Why not quit arguing? It's no point of doing so...When AmigaOne comes out, people will start to look at it for what it actually IS, and not for what it ISN'T....
Fine, you like MorphOS and Pegasos better, right? Then go for it..and let us other people who want the AmigaOne and AmigaOS 4 go for them without being attacked...
It remind me about "My computer is better than yours" thread that have been served for years...It's really unnecessary...
If you really love the Pegasos/MorphOS-thing, then go for it..if that make you comfortable...We don't blame you for that, so don't blame me and the other for waiting for the AmigaOne/AmigaOS 4...
Again, lets shake hands and leave with peace...
Good evening...
-
Ever think that Eyetech said there wasn't a bug because they knew the issue was being fixed? I seriously doubt that MAI implemented fixes for the chipset in one week. (And since Eyetech is partnered with MAI, they would have known about it.)
--
Ehm, I know up to who made the fix specifically, so
don't bother.
Wouldn't one also think that Genesi would have some insight in to the fix too?
--
Genesi knew about this for a long long time. They were the ones to prove that the bug exists. MAI
weren't able to reproduce it till Gerald Carda visited
them and showed em. Also, guess why he spend
2 weeks there ;).
Seems that if they're doing good good business with MAI they would have been told about it.. Yet they put all the spin around the "april" fix and make it appear that the Teron boards aren't going to function properly without it.
The April fix is not the same as the fix Eyetech has.
The April fixes that bug (+others) without the need
of software tweaks. The fix eyetech has is an
HW+SW one.
-
I didn't blame you about anything. I just believe that
liking AOne+OS4 doesn't mean that you should
worship Amiga Inc as well. Yes, I do like Peg and
MOS and I will buy that combo. On the other hand
I will also buy OS4.
-
Well, the wait for my A1G4XE has been fustrating yes...but it doesn't matter..Thank you for clearing it out, AmiGR...
On my A1G4XE, i will run LinuxPPC as well, too, with MacOS X Jaguar under it...
-
To AmiGR...
This is what I found at Extreme Amigas' AmigaOne-site...
02/January/2003 AmigaOne XE systems experience further delay.
We are assured by Eyetech that all issues with the release of the XE boards are resolved, and as a result, we have an improved board! Eyetech has only stated that will be shipping the XE boards by the end of January 2003. This means with building & testing of the equipment, we expect to be able to ship AmigaOne systems by approximately February 17, 2003. All customers with AmigaOne orders that receive AmigaOne systems prior to AmigaOS4 being released will automatically be put on the AmigaOne Developers Mailinglist.
-
by AmiGR on 2003/1/12 16:50:19
I didn't blame you about anything. I just believe that
liking AOne+OS4 doesn't mean that you should
worship Amiga Inc as well. Yes, I do like Peg and
MOS and I will buy that combo. On the other hand
I will also buy OS4.
Most ppl who want Aone/Aos4 dont.
You just asume they do.
And even if they did SO Frigging what.
PPL are free to worship what they like as long as no harm comes from it.
Some ppl worship Genesi
Some ppl worship Amiga.inc
Some ppl worship Eyetech
some ppl worship Hyperion
some ppl worship God
Some ppl worship ect......
All have their ouwn reason for doing so & none have to justify to you for doing so.
You may ask tho.But dont go on & on & on about why why why all the time.
As you ill start to sound just as bad as them.
As long as no one tries to force you to worship something that you dont want to then there is no reason to get upset about it.
-
I'm upset cause some people reply (no, not helgis) as if I killed their mother every time I say anything
bad about Amiga Inc. Amiga Inc doesn't deserve to be worshiped. Anyway, I don't worship anybody and
I think that worshiping any company is just stupid.
-
@AmiGR
I'm upset cause some people reply (no, not helgis) as if I killed their mother every time I say anything bad about Amiga Inc.
Thats the problem, people are so against anyone what says anything negative about wonderfull Amiga inc,
I wonder what MAGIC has Amiga inc done to earn them so many obsessed fans,
FFS the company can not even sort out t-shirts.
-
I'm upset cause some people reply (no, not helgis) as if I killed their mother every time I say anything
bad about Amiga Inc. Amiga Inc doesn't deserve to be worshiped. Anyway, I don't worship anybody and
I think that worshiping any company is just stupid.
I see the same happen from the other side when ppl say anything bad about Genesi.
So live with it.
-
I didn't see anyone doing like THAT.
BTW, you seem to think that there are only 2 camps.
You classify anyone against Amiga Inc as a MorphOS
user. Since when cheesegrate and Dammy are MorphOS users?
-
by AmiGR on 2003/1/12 21:46:45
I didn't see anyone doing like THAT.
BTW, you seem to think that there are only 2 camps.
You classify anyone against Amiga Inc as a MorphOS
user. Since when cheesegrate and Dammy are MorphOS users?
I Dont remember saying anyone whos against Amiga.inc is a MOS supporter.
Pls point me to where i said that.
Or is that once again something you made up in your own mind again.
And that fact you dont see the other side is your bias.
-
You was in the plural number.
And about not seeing the other side... I was in that
side for A LONG time... I know what happens and
that's why I'm not an A Inc fanatic anymore. Yes, I
was at some time. I support the Pegasos and
MorphOS and I'll support OS4 but I'll never support
Amiga Inc again.
-
I think this is all a rather mute point... lets face it, most of the people in here wouldn't pirate it. It the ones that are just fringe members of the Community that will.
-
mips_proc wrote:
is no where near as Draconian
ahhh but what other company that dosent make hardware... has romed their OS to one board?.....find one...
So, what's your point? The OEM license would be OK if Hyperion or AI were making the hardware instead of Eyetech, or if Eyetech were developing the AOS4 instead of Hyperion?
At this stage of the game, the license restrictions are intended to maximize the revenues for all three companies and to limit their overhead (incl. development and end user support. Yes by throttling the market). Working in partnership. Toward releasing a PPC based Amiga (if in name only) and Amiga OS. But apparently that is unimportant.
So here are the only two solutions it seems you will accept.
One, AI, Hyperion, and Eyetech merge into one entity. AI goes back to making hardware under their Eyetech division, transitional OS development goes to their Hyperion division, and AI continues doing whatever the hell it is they're doing (supposedly AA/ADE/OS5). Thereby making the OEM license 'Kosher'.
Two, AI, Hyperion, and Eyetech cease all development of any products. Freeing up whatever IP they have acquired or created to the highest bidder. With the Amiga name and original IP reverting back to Gateway.
<[color=FF0000]sarcasm-so-thick-you-couldn't-cut-it-with-a-20,000-terra-watt-narrow-beam-laser[/color]>
Yippee! Wouldn't option number two be great!!!
<[color=FF0000]/sarcasm-so-thick-you-couldn't-cut-it-with-a-20,000-terra-watt-narrow-beam-laser[/color]>
FYI, anyone else wanting to grow the AOS4 hardware platform can negotiate a license... So far, no one who has tried, has been turned down. So your assertion that they (AI/Hyperion) have"romed their OS to one board", is inaccurate. Now if they refuse additional applicants out of hand, then perhaps your statement will carry more validity.
At this rate, by the time another party decides to negotiate a license, the licensing situation will likely be moot. Either option one or two above will come to pass, or the licensing terms themselves will have changed.
-
@Kronos
AINc has made it 100% clear that there wonb't be a retail version
Have they now, I'll have to take another look.
Both AInc and Eyetech have invested 0.0$ into OS4, and so I see no
And you know this how? The way I see it, Eyetech are investing in AOS4 by producing (by whatever means) hardware for AOS4. And the OEM license provides them the most protection. I could argue that they also have taken the most risk. I'll concede AI have had little to do with the development of AOS4. Beyond licensing the trademark and source code to Hyperion, they've sat back and done nothing... Well, except start a questionable fan club.
-
-D- wrote:
>In effect, the Pegasos and G-REXX are hardware
dongles and thus provide copy protection.
That's not even close to the same thing as a
specific ROM and OS coded to work together for
vague corpo reasons...besides, the intended
purpose of the G-REXX and Pegasos have nothing
to do with copy protection, unlike the A1/OS4
scenario. It's not an accurate comparison.
First how is it any different? What, it's covert as opposed to overt? I mean this sincerely, to my perception, Genesi's strategy is no different than AI/Hyperion/Eyetech's. Since Genesi have (to my knowledge) made no statements regarding the licensing policy, I think it unfair to condemn AI/Hyperion/Eyetech. I'm perfectly willing to support one, the other, or both. But I won't support any until all the facts are out.
I can't disprove that the G-REX and Pegasos aren't means of copy protection. So Genesi and DCE will have to. Same with AI/Hyperion/Eyetech proving that they will only support the current OEM license, in perpetuity. [Note: Kronos claims the exec updates confirm this. Until I have, I will continue to support my initial argument.]
I'll say it again, these prejudices have got to end.
-
@mips
so what?... microsoft a gigantic real company... their not in the same boat 'AT ALL" as A1/OS4...
You've actually just made a valid argument for the ROM dongle... AI/Hyperion/Eyetech are not in the same league as Microsoft. AI/Hyperion/Eyetech (and even Gensi, since MorphOS is pretty much just A/Box) are in a re-emerging market (well that's what I'm hoping) while Microsoft are in an established market. Hence their strategies will be different.
AI/Hyperion/Eyetech are trying to throttle the AOS market. Why? Because they couldn't possibly support (and I don't just mean tesh support) the explosive growth so many here seem to desire. Have AI/Hyperion/Eyetech precluded explosive growth? I don't think so. They've just built in a pressure release valve for the AOS market with the ROM dongle.
Until MorphOS for the Teron and (yet unreleased) Barbie, I think it's safe to say Genesi is doing the same. And I sincerely don't blame them!
-
@ Mips
I dont think hardware companies should have to bend over backward for the privelige of having an OS run on their hardware.... most if not all of these solutions primary OS and intention is not to run AOS/ MOS or any alternative... but to run Linux anyway..
Do we know for a fact that a hardware company has "to bend over backward"? So far, only Eyetech have negotiated one. All other parties (Apple, Genesi, Barbie, and the SBC or 'brick' PPC manufacturers) have chosen not to even investigate the terms of the license. So how can we know that obtaining a license is so difficult.
-
samface wrote:
2. The Barbie? I'm sorry but that Linux dude is the kind of guy that expects others to create software specificly for his hardware on their own initiative. That's not how it works. If he gets a userbase for his hardware then maybe, but that on the other hand requires software for it. What has Hyperion to gain from making support for his hardware with basicly a non-existent userbase? Nothing. What does he has to gain from having AmigaOS4 support? I'd say a whole lot. Wake up and smell the coffee...
Uh, I think you misunderstand the purpose of the Barbie board... Man I wish it had a different name... I keep seeing a silly plastic mannequin every time I write "Barbie". Anyway, the Barbie is targeted at a market willing to bring a software platform to just about any hardware platform... That software platform is Linux. All he has to do is put it out there... He could even sell it as kit with the disclaimer like, "This is a hobbyist machine. Hardware support will be limited to certain physical defects in the Barbie. Any and all other hardware issues must be addressed by the second or third party hardware manufacturer. This includes the BIOS, North & South bridge chips, and integrated audio, video, and network solutions. This disclaimer is subject to change at any time without notice." I'm not saying this will happen. In fact I'm pretty sure it wouldn't. But it is possible.
The point is, the Barvie is targeted firmly at the Linux world... It still doesn't mean we would never see AOS4 officially on the Barbie. It just means a hardware vendor, as opposed to the Barbie manufacturer, would have to negotiate a license.
-
. All other parties (Apple, Genesi, Barbie, and the SBC or 'brick' PPC manufacturers) have chosen not to even investigate the terms of the license. So how can we know that obtaining a license is so difficult.
@all
I know I know I look lika hipocrite for responding to this but I felt I had to.
here is what Ross the developer of Barbie said about it.
----------------------------------------------------------
325. Ross Heinlein
I'm in developement of a POP board, the "barbie" http://penguinppc.org/dev/pop/ If I can make AOS4 run on this, I'll contribute my sources/drivers, if not, well, one board is better than none, eh? Barbie will NOT be licensing AOS, we don't deal with software companies, it's not our job to chase down OS developers. If you'd like to work on this board, fine, I'll help, if not, that's fine too. Your policy guarantees that your OS will only run on boards specifically manufactured for that purpose, which is very shortsighted considering many PPC boards are about to begin developement due to recently available PPC chipset solutions. You need to realise that as Hardware manufacturers, your OS licensing is NOT our concern, we just build hardware, we don't play games and tailor separate product lines for every "niche-OS" who has crazy ideas, you should rethink yours. I do not speak for my employer in a manner I can be held accountable for, but what I say is a valid representation of their (and my) views on the matter
------------------------------------------------
we all know what happend with Genesi....the supposed 'stolen code' and 'lawsuits' and nonsense..
I call this 'bending over backward' haveing to insert their spacific rom to the board...
this is my OPINON of it...
and shades
saying 'its a piece of crap board' dosent count as a valid excuse why OS4 should be stuck on A1 only.. I personally would buy a Barbie over an A1 ... the barbie has dual gigabit nics and dual IDE raid.. 2 PCI slots and 2 SDRAM slots...it will fit into as 1U.... its certinly not crap as you might think... I cant believe an A1 supporter would poke fun at barbie...thats the pot calling the kettle black.
-
Kronos wrote:
@DaveP
What are you on ?
Yes any Pegasos will ship with MorphOS, just like any Mac
ships with MacOS and every A1 is gonna ship with OS4.
But thats NOT the point of the petition, it is about OS4 being
sold without the HW, to use it on a Pegasos or Mac.
And remember it was Hyperion who talked about running OS4 on Macs
and Pegasos before April. BPlan haven't changed their stance a bit:
If they want to sell their SW for our HW, than they are free to do
it, but we won't give them any special treatment.
Both A1 and Pegasos are NOT closed, it is the OSes that are, and
Genesi atleast haven't ruled out selling MorphOS shrink-wrapped for
A1 or Mac.
What a minute... Genesi has not made clear their licensing terms. We do not know if Genesi will require you to purchase a Pegasos in order to obtain MorphOS. We do not know if MorphOS will ever be released as a retail product.
As to whether or not Hyperion said AOS4 has run on a Mac or Pegasos; has no bearing on whether it will be made commercially available of either platform. It's a possibility, not a certainty.
I can't say whether Dave_P is lying when he says that Genesi told him they would not allow MorphOS to be unbundle or not. But then again, I haven't seen Genesi sell MorphOS on anything other than the Pegasos. So, I can only assume that Genesi are backing the same strategy as AI/Hyperion/Eyetech.
BTW, AFAIK, AI/Hyperion haven't ruled out the Pegasos or Mac (alothough Apple may have something to say about this) or any other PPC solution either. But they have made it clear licensing will be required.
-
Kronos wrote:
@DaveP
What are you on ?
Yes any Pegasos will ship with MorphOS, just like any Mac
ships with MacOS and every A1 is gonna ship with OS4.
But thats NOT the point of the petition, it is about OS4 being
sold without the HW, to use it on a Pegasos or Mac.
And remember it was Hyperion who talked about running OS4 on Macs
and Pegasos before April. BPlan haven't changed their stance a bit:
If they want to sell their SW for our HW, than they are free to do
it, but we won't give them any special treatment.
Both A1 and Pegasos are NOT closed, it is the OSes that are, and
Genesi atleast haven't ruled out selling MorphOS shrink-wrapped for
A1 or Mac.
What a minute... Genesi has not made clear their licensing terms. We do not know if Genesi will require you to purchase a Pegasos in order to obtain MorphOS. We do not know if MorphOS will ever be released as a retail product.
As to whether or not Hyperion said AOS4 has run on a Mac or Pegasos; has no bearing on whether it will be made commercially available of either platform. It's a possibility, not a certainty.
I can't say whether Dave_P is lying when he says that Genesi told him they would not allow MorphOS to be unbundle or not. But then again, I haven't seen Genesi sell MorphOS on anything other than the Pegasos. So, I can only assume that Genesi are backing the same strategy as AI/Hyperion/Eyetech.
BTW, AFAIK, AI/Hyperion haven't ruled out the Pegasos or Mac (alothough Apple may have something to say about this) or any other PPC solution either. But they have made it clear licensing will be required.
-
What a minute... Genesi has not made clear their licensing terms. We do not know if Genesi will require you to purchase a Pegasos in order to obtain MorphOS. We do not know if MorphOS will ever be released as a retail product.
--
No, many people know and you can ask Genesi if you
want. It will be released as retail, but not yet.
I can't say whether Dave_P is lying when he says that Genesi told him they would not allow MorphOS to be unbundle or not. But then again, I haven't seen Genesi sell MorphOS on anything other than the Pegasos. So, I can only assume that Genesi are backing the same strategy as AI/Hyperion/Eyetech.
--
Wrong, Amiga Inc doesn't let anyone install MorphOS
on a machine with AmigaOS4. Genesi allows dual
booting, they just want MorphOS to be in the package
and/or preinstalled, just like the PC driver CDs that
come with motherboards.
BTW, AFAIK, AI/Hyperion haven't ruled out the Pegasos or Mac (alothough Apple may have something to say about this) or any other PPC solution either. But they have made it clear licensing will be required.
Amiga Inc DID rule them out with their licence scheme.
Do you expect Apple to sign anything with Amiga Inc?
No. So no OS4 for Macs.
Do you expect Genesi to do so? No, they did sign
something like that with A. Inc. once and they've
regret it.
-
by AmiGR on 2003/1/12 22:04:46
You was in the plural number.
And about not seeing the other side... I was in that
side for A LONG time... I know what happens and
that's why I'm not an A Inc fanatic anymore. Yes, I
was at some time. I support the Pegasos and
MorphOS and I'll support OS4 but I'll never support
Amiga Inc again.
Plural does not mean everyone. Everyone means everyone. you need to touch up on your understanding of English.
Other side does not mean plural either, cos the other side could be just one person.
There are 2 teams in a foot ball match 1 English the other German.
It does not mean that all other sides are German teams does it.
-
Plural does not mean everyone. Everyone means everyone. you need to touch up on your understanding of English.
Other side does not mean plural either, cos the other side could be just one person.
--
In the specific case it is NOT one person. It's a whole
bunch. You meant the whole bunch. You could very
well be "you people".
It's right grammatically, but my mistake is not that not everybody does this.
Sorry about that, it's my mistake.
-
In the specific case it is NOT one person. It's a whole
bunch. You meant the whole bunch. You could very
well be "you people".
It's right grammatically, but my mistake is not that not everybody does this.
Sorry about that, it's my mistake./
Yes a Whole bunch of PPL does not include everyone.
-
I'd just like to say i for one dont 'worship' any of these companies...and when Genesi does something stupid I'll come down on them... I have pointed out stupid things they have done in the past...and I will in the future... but this grouping all non-believers into one group as MOS users is pretty pathetic...
-
"I can't say whether Dave_P is lying when he says that Genesi told him they would not allow MorphOS to be unbundle or not. "
No you can't, and this convoluted means of inferring that I might have is a mite offensive. There is even circumstantial evidence backing up my point of view on ANN, here etc.
I suggest that you get into the unenviable position of trying to negotiate with both Amiga Inc and Genesi (then BPlan ) and find out for yourself, or do the simpler option of searching the web.
I am sure that if you ask the cheerleader squad politely they might even let you in on correspondance which also verifies it.
However, it is a reasonably well understood position on MorphOS bundling and I am sure that if Amiga Inc werent on the other side of the negotiation the contents of the bundle would be negotiable.
Unfortunately Genesi seem to think of AmigaOS4 on Pegasos as a big threat at the moment, knowing full well that providing a board for porting whilst still tying prospective licensees up in knots makes absorbing the cost of the port by a third party a significant risk.
"Genesi has not made clear their licensing terms."
Strange how they don't go public on this when they make significant public statements on everything else. I suggest you go look at the "Drunken reposting of Fleecys email" episode to see SOME public statements on the matter.
However, what you COULD do, if you believe I am a liar or if you believe that Genesi might actually change their minds would be to persaude them to make public their terms and conditions for resellers of the Pegasos bundle.
What I think you fail to realise is that Pegasos and MorphOS is a single, unseperable commodity for all intents and purposes.
In fact you could do similar to myself and call them up and ask them if you can order a large shipment of Pegasos without MorphOS so that you can resell them with AmigaOS4.
Go on, do it!
-
mips_proc wrote:
I'd just like to say i for one dont 'worship' any of these companies...and when Genesi does something stupid I'll come down on them... I have pointed out stupid things they have done in the past...and I will in the future... but this grouping all non-believers into one group as MOS users is pretty pathetic...
Way to go mips, and the converse is true as well.
This thread is probably going to get locked now anyway!
-
@ShadesofGrey
Um, yes, the G-REXX and Pegasos are different from
the OS4 dongle, the G-REXX is a PCI solution for
the old A1200, and the Pegasos is a PPC board, while
the OS4 dongle is just that...why some people have to
continually contrive these theories to support their
weak arguments :-P is beyond me...to say that some
contrived 'protection in itself' is somehow the
same as a REAL, ACTUAL, EXISTING dongle
(by this I mean physical, 'real') is completely
baffling.
Don't get me wrong, I understand how somebody
could say this, but it's like saying that a
dog and a chicken are the exact same because
they both have heads...
And I'm not supporting either 'side' here, I'm
just pointing out an inaccurate comparison, IMO.
-
I already told you the REAL case... They CAN sell
OS4 with Pegasos and preinstall it, as long as
MorphOS is also in the package. If OS4 is preinstalled
MorphOS must also be preinstalled.
They don't restrict anything else. Amiga Inc on the
other hand didn't want OS4 to be WITH MorphOS.