Amiga.org

Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: MikeB on October 12, 2002, 07:12:53 PM

Title: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: MikeB on October 12, 2002, 07:12:53 PM
I am severely disappointed with so many people within the Amiga community. People have been spreading so much mis-information and lies since Bill and Fleecy bought Amiga for around 4,5 million dollar two years ago, it disgusts me!

Although I am glad to see that AmigaDE, AmigaOS4 and MorphOS teams are making good progress. My recent MorphOS review has brought me to even more insight. When I contacted Thendic-France I got so much uncalled for "confidential" FUD and misinformation attached with regard to other Amiga companies, it truly disgusts me to no end.

Then the personal threats coming from inside the MorphOS team, and when presenting them to the management of bPlan, Thendic, Ralph, does not result in *any* kind of response!

I am fed up with all these childish individuals who have shaped the face of "Amiga" to the outside world for far too long. I am going to stand at the sidelines from  now on. Currently this "community" is no fun for me anymore, and for me personally  that was the most important aspect.

I hope something will change eventually, but considering the enormous efforts in the past geared towards destroying anything positive I severely doubt this.

I am sure there are many people laughing now and thinking "good riddance".  I don't have much to say to them, other than that you deserve eachother and I hope you are lesser pathetic bastards in your ordinary lives.

Finally I would like to thank everyone who has positively contributed to the Amiga community. Personally I will purshase AmigaOS4 and have an eye out for Amiga software for the intent platform. If I will do reviews is still very uncertain, my good intentions will likely be destroyed by trolls anyway.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: magic2002 on October 12, 2002, 07:29:50 PM
I am seriously considering in starting up my own Amiga Company from scratch. The aim will be to get the damn machine back onto its two feet at a decent level in the market. Take Imac`s how the hell did they surrive the pc domminera?
If I can just get the Amiga up to an Imac level in the markets, then I think the Amiga will allways have a stable future it doesnt have to be as powerfull as microsoft they are just money grabbing gits.
I am really getting personaly seriously pissed off with the way and I quote some of the Amiga Community is  treating the Amiga in the Markets.
As I said, my aim if I can ever get an aim (money)
would to get the Amiga at the Imac level in the market and we will be safe as houses.
For now........




AmigaDomain.com (http://www.amigadomain.com/)
Quote
Im taking my work back to the underground - its better down there safer.....
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: on October 12, 2002, 07:44:50 PM
Sorry Mike, but you really bring this on yourself.

You can't go around writing your biased little diatribes on news sites and forums, and expect people to be nice to you.

What Thendic sent you was not FUD :)

The MorphOS team did not threaten you either. You turned a quiet and friendly advice email into a 6-person conversation because you refused to accept that you were in the wrong when you posted so much crap to OSNews. We're all very disappointed that you only changed it to "stop them whining" rather than accepting your bad article as such.

Sorry, again, Mike, but I really am one of those people who am laughing and saying "Good Riddance" - because you've done more harm to the Amiga "community" than you blame others for.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: DaveP on October 12, 2002, 08:36:15 PM
In a less extreme way I kind of agree with Neko here because someone did a good thing with the FAQ and you just tried to rip it apart labelling it biased and containing opinion and misinformation which so far you have been unable to substantiate.

I do not know if English is your first language but I think you have to question how you are translating or interpreting sentences and indeed I question whether you have read the FAQ in full at all.

Sure I think Thendic are a bunch of amateurs too and I do not like their tactics or the way that have conducted themselves on public fora in the past either ( or via email for that matter ) but they have heard what has been said to them and they have quit the political mill for the most part and are playing it straight now ( as far as I can see ).

Until anything is proven in court you have to treat the Amiga Inc version of the truth with the same blunt scepticism you treat the Thendic/BPlan/MorphOS version of the truth - e.g. accept that it may be misinformation. But you don't.

However I do NOT want to see you leave the Amiga community, just take a few weeks off, take a chill pill and come back.

I thought the OSNews article was good but the legality issue as being something that did not need dragging up again but you as writer judged that it should.

On the other hand the amount of flack you got from Thendic and others probably was just as much flack that you gave Digby on ANN over the FUDBUSTER and you expected him/her to take it on the chin - so why not you?

So chill, don't contribute to the brain drain from the Amiga "community" just yet and accept that maybe you are just a little too close to see it straight at the moment.

If you dont like what Im saying Ill freely meet up with you and give you first punch on the jaw if it makes you feel better.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: MikeB on October 13, 2002, 04:03:41 AM
Matt "Neko" Sealey,

If the Amiga community was like a delicious sweet cake to me. You were like the fatest worm crawling on top, making me loose my appetite. Your continuous swearing and use of abusive language against anyone with a different opinion, IMO makes you a great match for Ralph inside your MorphOS "team".

With regard to the FUD which the managers of Thendic-France sent me, I know *first hand* it was FUD and misinformation.

1) I did NOT ask for it. It was totally unrelated for what I contacted Bill and Raquel for.

2) If you people felt the need to send this crap to me, then I wonder how many people received such crap without knowng *first hand* these were nothing but lies.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: on October 13, 2002, 06:51:31 AM
Quote

Matt "Neko" Sealey,


.. as if people didn't know my name already. You are nice to remind them, Mike, or maybe you're just playing the odds of starting a flamewar to hide your own inadequacies, yet again.

Quote

If the Amiga community was like a delicious sweet cake to me. You were like the fatest worm crawling on top, making me loose my appetite. Your continuous swearing and use of abusive language against anyone with a different opinion, IMO makes you a great match for Ralph inside your MorphOS "team".


And it's prose like that which means people WILL be saying "good riddance to that two faced son-of-a-bitch". You *CANNOT* go around purporting that you an unbiased journalist with a finger in every pie, and then level accusations on a personal level every time you review a product.

It is certainly a bad idea to say "I like the way MorphOS is progressing!" and then "they stole Amiga intellectual property and at least two of their team members are dicks" in an article, message board forum. Did I call you two-faced yet? And a son-of-a-bitch? Ah, yes, yes I did. Good. Didn't want to miss that.

Quote
With regard to the FUD which the managers of Thendic-France sent me, I know *first hand* it was FUD and misinformation.


If it was the "FUD" that I also received, then it was not FUD but a real prepared document - the kind companies make when they are about to be taken into legal action. Of course if you choose not to believe it on the sole basis that it was sent to you "unprovoked", or that you disagree with the company as a whole, then that's fine. But you can't go around writing articles as if you're unbiased when you hold *grudges* against those parties.

Quote

1) I did NOT ask for it. It was totally unrelated for what I contacted Bill and Raquel for.


It was relevant to your understanding of the product and company in question, so you didn't go around thinking the #### you think.

Every time you appear online you accuse bPlan, Thendic or MorphOS of theft! This is plainly not true for many many reasons, or simply by misunderstanding or mismarketing my certain parties involved - and certainly even if it wasn't true, to enforce that accusation Amiga would have to initiate court action to actually prove it. Only a judge in a court of law can decide whether there was theft, or so-called parasitic competition, or what have you.

YOU do not decide this. YOU do not friggin' comment about it as if you know. Do you know what a fallacy it is to believe you know all the facts when you are only told one side of the story by a biased individual?

At least with that Thendic "FUD" (I don't see how it can be fear, uncertainty and doubt considering any of it's content though.. but maybe it *should* cast doubts on Amiga's operation and motives..) you got the second side of the story.

Quote

2) If you people felt the need to send this crap to me, then I wonder how many people received such crap without knowng *first hand* these were nothing but lies.


Again, more accusations. Do you realise that most of the articles you have created contain legitimate cases of libel against companies? Do you admit that? No. You change it in a subtle way, not because you feel it's the right thing to do, but to stop people moaning at you and so you can carry on posting snidey remarks about companies you have a deep, unsettling, emotional hatred for.

Your gross attachment to Amiga (look at your avatar, for God's sake) makes you the worst choice in the world to be the unbiased voice of the Amiga Community, yet you will run around shouting as if you should be given a medal for it. Since your days on the Team AMIGA mailing list you've been an ass-kisser with a fanatical devotion to Amiga as a brand name - despite your claims to the contrary - and of course Amiga's owners as people. If Fleecy weren't married, I'm certain you'd have been sucking his dick in order to get a free AmigaDE PDA for the "purpose of review"..

Your total lack of any technical knowledge makes you a poor choice for doing so anyway. Reviewing from a user standpoint could well be original but users do not use the full functionality of the product, so how could they give a useful review?

It's quite sickening the amount of technical misinformation and misunderstanding you both spout and stand behind in this places. It makes you look like a retard to everyone who DOES know what they're talking about. Note - Ben Hermans does not know what AmigaOS 4.x is doing, besides what his employees and contractors tell him. He does not have a profound technical knowledge of the issues involved. Why do you believe every word he says about every technical issue he says he's announcing or confirming? Some of them have been blatantly impossible, yet you rallied..

Can't you just admit you're manipulative little no-talent journalist who's trying to bend community opinion behind him to raise his "power level" and surreptitously gain recognition and privileges?

Okay, I could be levelled at that too, I wouldn't mind getting some free toys, but at least I don't run around shouting about how it's "for the good of the community" or "I am unbiased", and at least I can do something for it. I'm not a Vapor or MorphOS team member or a professional in the IT industry with a company car just because I can talk the talk: it's because I can walk the walk, and more importantly, *code the code that needs coding*.

Yep, you're a biased, two-faced, ass-kissing son-of-a-bitch. And everybody thinks so. And if they don't, maybe they should be taking a timeout with you. You can give them a massage :)
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: CodeSmith on October 13, 2002, 07:29:36 AM
@neko:

Wow, you're one angry guy... :pissed:
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: on October 13, 2002, 07:41:35 AM
I've read this guy's articles and it isnt right to publish opinon's on things that could be un-true(IE:about morph legit )...until court time comes it's all slander...
If/When a verdict is ruled you can print as much of that as you like...but until then your spreading just as much FUD as the people your angry with..
bieng biased and then saying 'i dont like it when others are biased' is just childish....i hope im a worm in his cake to...because i dont like people who play cry baby when they do the same thing as someone else and cant stand it when they get the same thing done back at them.
basically it all comes down to.

if your gonna talk trash you better have thick enough skin to accept trash bieng talked back... thats basically the long and short of it.
some people cant do that...and they wind up crying about it to others as if their the innocent little victim in the situation.

@Neko
heheheheheheheheheheheheh :P you are angry but the world needs more angry people.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: DaveP on October 13, 2002, 07:58:49 AM
@mips

Sounds a bit like you fancy Matt to me. ;-)
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: on October 13, 2002, 08:03:43 AM
ahhh he's a prick...but he's funny...that was funny at least.
first time i've seen him emerge from whever he's been in a long time.
last time i saw him was on arcnet calling me a SOB for one reason or another.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: Paul_Gadd on October 13, 2002, 08:18:16 AM
Quote
If Fleecy weren't married, I'm certain you'd have been sucking his dick in order to get a free AmigaDE PDA for the "purpose of review"..


Amigans line up for the real amiga experience  :-D  :-D

 :quickdraw:
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: Orgin on October 13, 2002, 08:22:26 AM
Yes MikeB you are right. The community a vocaled by so many assholes that it is starting (And has been for the last 2 years) to hold no interrest at all to me as well. The Amiga was once to me about the community, the good creative people. But there are very few such people left.  Atleast looking at the people posting at Amiga.org, Ann and Moo Bunny. It's a shame that it has fallen down into this stench hole.  The assholes will make it fall down on itself, with small groups holding each others backs, biting everyone else outside as often as they can. And sad enough, that is perhaps exacly what the assholes want. And those who don't will never understand that it's not about what AInc, Thendic, Hyperion, H&P etc etc has done or is doing, but how they themselves are acting.

Ohh well, why stand by a rotten corpse. Perhaps there are other communities out there that is about fun and creativity and not about what they hate.

/Björn
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: on October 13, 2002, 08:34:04 AM
Quote
Amigans line up for the real amiga experience


LMFAO
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: DaveP on October 13, 2002, 08:42:02 AM
@Bjorn

Now that I can agree with entirely.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: MikeB on October 13, 2002, 09:49:33 AM
> You *CANNOT* go around purporting that you an
> unbiased journalist with a finger in every pie

I am not a Journalist, never have been, I am a Physical Therapist who also happens to be an AmigaOS fan. (Sometimes I like to code, but in general I think it is dead boring!) At OSNews.com everyone knows this.

> "they stole Amiga intellectual property and at least
> two of their team members are dicks"

Although I haven't said that anywhere, it isn't that far from the truth as how I perceive this personally (Due to factors totally unrelated to Amiga Inc). I hope you guys can sleep at night, maybe that's a reason for the behaviour of certain MorphOS "Team" members.

> But you can't go around writing articles as if you're
> unbiased when you hold *grudges* against those
> parties.

There was no grudge when I wrote that article. I was requesting information from certain involved people, but did not get any information with regard to the issue you are so hung up on (access to AmigaOS source code), regardless of several requests.

> Every time you appear online you accuse bPlan,
> Thendic or MorphOS of theft!

Point me to *one* good  instance where I did!

> It was relevant to your understanding of the
> product and company in question

It did not have any relevance. Thendic-France wanted to have a biased Journalist to their advantage, nothing more and nothing less.

> Do you realise that most of the articles you have
> created contain legitimate cases of libel against
> companies?

Point these articles to me then.
Was it my AmigaOS XL review? (http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=604), Closer look at new Amiga Systems? (http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1356) or maybe my WinUAE tutorial? (http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1561)

Personally I can point to *thousands* of your postings containing real FUD and misinformation! Hypocrite!

> Since your days on the Team AMIGA mailing list

BTW, never been on the Team AMIGA mailing list before.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: on October 13, 2002, 09:53:17 AM
your certinly quite biased on ann.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: DaveP on October 13, 2002, 09:56:34 AM
mips,

whats your handle on ANN then?
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: on October 13, 2002, 10:18:21 AM
I dont post on ann...only read... i've posted maybe 2 times there in the last year...and one of them was for a vote..
from what i've read this guy is biased...i mean heck i think right now the second one down on ann.lu is a posting of that guy who made an FAQ just read what he wrote in response to it... trying to make the guy change it to reflect his own personal views...it's like the whole point of the FAQ (wich was well done) was to be balanced and not take sides..
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: DaveP on October 13, 2002, 10:21:01 AM
"Thendic-France wanted to have a biased Journalist to their advantage, nothing more and nothing less."

I wouldn't put it past them. Given that they have set a precendence perhaps you could take a few beers and post all the correspondance on here.

Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: Rodney on October 13, 2002, 10:26:01 AM
While i have enjoyed Mikes articles and whot not on OSNews before, i must say, when i found out he did a MorphOS article, i had my doubts. My doubts were confirmed when reading it.

I admit, i'd consider MorphOS an alternative to AmigaOS, ill get OS4 a try before MorphOS, and i guess Mike would feel the same. But he shouldnt let this been known when writing articles.

Sorry mike, but i couldnt help notice how biased you were in the MorphOS article. It seemed to focus largly on the negative aspects, whilst your AmigaOS articles focus largly on the positive.

Maybe you found more negative with MorphOS then with AmigaOS, and maybe thats why you prefer AmigaOS. I dont know. But the article, wasnt the best i've seen you do, wasnt the most indepth, and in my opinion, was a little biased.

Mike, i'd sad too see you go because i have enjoyed your enthusiasm and articles around the net for along time now. You truly are the defener of AmigaOS faith.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: on October 13, 2002, 10:30:03 AM
.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: MikeB on October 13, 2002, 11:01:38 AM
Are we talking about the same article here?

A Closer Look at MorphOS on the PEGASOS (http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1897)

Actually I did not do a more in depth article, simply because I did not want to slaughter the efforts of the MorphOS team. During the demonstration the demonstrators must have rebooted the system for over 20 times, this because of crashes or system lock-ups.

I just took Sharwin's word for it, that this was due to a recent software update. I did not focuss much on this fact at all!

I noticed that there is even a growing bias against me, I am actually glad to leave this "community", what a total waste of energy the community has become.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: DaveP on October 13, 2002, 11:04:35 AM
"even a growing bias against me"

Careful you might get paranoid.

Who is biased against you?
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: falemagn on October 13, 2002, 11:16:50 AM
Quote
Then the personal threats coming from inside the MorphOS team, and when presenting them to the management of bPlan, Thendic, Ralph, does not result in *any* kind of response!


It would be interesting to hear more about those threats, for your own safety, so that you aren't accused of spreading lies...

On the other hand, what you see as "threats" might have not been intended as such by the other party. It would be good, for everyone, to know more about this isue, at this point.

Don't raise accusations and then hide, go up to the end. In other words, be more clear.

Fabio Alemagna
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: on October 13, 2002, 11:46:57 AM
@DaveP im biased against him..for no reason other then i feel like bieng biased today...maybe tomorrow i wont be...but for today (the remaining 35 minutes until i go to bed) im biased :P ....the reason im so fickle is that im a jerk..can i get a 'biased against mips' vote if someone will cast it?...come on...out with your bias everyone...it's healthy...dont get an ulcer thinking bad about someone and keeping it inside.

and about the so called 'threats' if thats not true thats a pretty shameful thing to spread...if it is true thats pretty shameful that someone threatened you...but i do agree you should come 'out with it' so to speak...
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: MikeB on October 13, 2002, 12:59:46 PM
I have no problems with making all my email exchanges with Thendic-France publicly available. But the other party must agree with this as well, as I don't want to lower myself to the level, as for example, like where one of Fleecy's emails was presented publicly without his approval.

With regard to the article I notified Bill and Raquel, as soon as the article went public (as requested). No response followed, but instead after a while Matt "Neko" Sealey was appointed by the core MorphOS development team, as being their spokesman towards me. And he accused me of stating that the MorphOS team has "stolen source tapes" and if I wouldn't change my article bPlan and Thendic can  "kick your ass about it" and that I am "in line for legal action".

Several of my requests for confirmation from bPlan, Thendic-France and Ralph Schmidt resulted in absolutely no reply (While prior Thendic was far too eager to send multiple FUD emails with regard to other companies). This combined with the uncalled for FUD and misinforming emails by Thendic-France, with regard to other Amiga companies made me angry and dissappointed with the current state of the Amiga "community".

Maybe, I have overreacted by leaving everyone behind, as there are still some good people left, as I can see from the emails I am receiving, but that's just the way I feel now about the "community".
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: on October 13, 2002, 01:04:54 PM
Quote

MikeB wrote:
> You *CANNOT* go around purporting that you an
> unbiased journalist with a finger in every pie

I am not a Journalist, never have been


You write articles for publication, this is what we call "journalism". That you are an amateur is plain to see, but it does not make you less of one. As someone writing articles about Amiga and related subjects, YOU ARE A JOURNALIST.

Quote

I am a Physical Therapist who also happens to be an AmigaOS fan.


.. evidently to the detriment of your opinion of any potential competitors or supplements to AmigaOS..  

Quote

> "they stole Amiga intellectual property and at least
> two of their team members are dicks"

Although I haven't said that anywhere


You didn't say it in so many words, no. But we all know you have something against Ralph Schmidt, and myself, and your article on OSNews and *all* of your posts to ANN and MooBunny show a great bias towards AmigaOS 4.x and related projects as compared to MorphOS, including your statements of FACT about legal issues which are as far from fact as cow pats are from chocolate cookies.
[/quote]

Quote

> But you can't go around writing articles as if you're
> unbiased when you hold *grudges* against those
> parties.

There was no grudge when I wrote that article.


Not against Ralph, not against myself? Liar liar, pants on fire..

Quote

I was requesting information from certain involved people, but did not get any information with regard to the issue you are so hung up on (access to AmigaOS source code), regardless of several requests.


So you DIDN'T receive that document. In which case what the HELL did you receive that was FUD? It's absolutely incredible evidence of your bias, is this :)

Quote

> Every time you appear online you accuse bPlan,
> Thendic or MorphOS of theft!

Point me to *one* good  instance where I did!


I could spend days going through ANN and MooBunny picking out your posts where you present as unshakable fact that MorphOS is based on stolen AmigaOS 3.1 source code. But the biggest one I can point out is this: who needs to search?

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1897

""So, no agreement could be reached and the legal status of the OS has been in doubt within the Amiga community ever since (because the development team has had access to AmigaOS source code). ""

Since I mailed you with friendly advice and a possibly better way of phrasing that sentence, you have done nothing but refuse to admit that that line is a VERY VERY stupid thing to say. Recently you added the word "allegedly" but it was not because you believed it. You refused to change the line because, and I quote:

""Neither Thendic nor bPlan are denying it""

This is not good reason not to change it, you two-faced STUBBORN son-of-a-bitch.

Quote

It did not have any relevance. Thendic-France wanted to have a biased Journalist to their advantage, nothing more and nothing less.


Thendic France wanted a journalist that wouldn't go around making his day by ####-talking their products and subjecting them to legal difficulties every day.

Everyone else manages to do what they want just fine. Why do you have to be different?

Quote

> Do you realise that most of the articles you have
> created contain legitimate cases of libel against
> companies?

Point these articles to me then.


http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1897

That one. I can point to *thousands* of ANN and MooBunny posts where you confirm your silly little opinion and place it out there as the gospel truth. You seem to want to accept that the MorphOS team have disks full of AmigaOS 3.1 source code laying around and are working by simple recompiles of it. This could not be further from the truth, and if you like, you can ask AROS just how much of their work we are using (and then putting back, too.. you would not believe how buggy the AROS components are)

Quote

Personally I can point to *thousands* of your postings containing real FUD and misinformation! Hypocrite!


I am not a hypocrite because I do not claim to be unbiased. I go around slagging AmigaOS 4.x and Hyperion off because I have good reason to: they can do no right in my eyes, and by simple reading of their news announcements (and a few newsgroup chats with the Friedens over certain projects) it seems they are doing everything possible to turn AmigaOS 4.x into a crock of ####.

I think MorphOS and AmigaOS 4.x are created equal, but it's the subsequent development that makes the difference - whether either turns into a crock of #### is entirely dependant on the teams working on it, and the methods they use.
 
I think people need to wake up and smell the incompetance here on the side of AmigaOS 4.x.

You, however, say you are unbiased and want to see both succeed, yet can't wait for a chance to write a negative comment about MorphOS, bPlan, Thendic, it's team members, employees.... by nature, biased.

Quote

> Since your days on the Team AMIGA mailing list

BTW, never been on the Team AMIGA mailing list before.


You were on some kind of list, and pasted it to the bottom of your mails quite a lot. It wasn't the AmigaRing crap. I'm certain it was Team AMIGA or something, or maybe you just said you were a "member of the Amiga team, blah blah blind fanboy rant sig". I don't recall.. I'll have to find an old mail you sent.

Change that line to "Ever since the early days" and my point still stands, s-o-b.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: DaveP on October 13, 2002, 01:06:35 PM
"And he accused me of stating that the MorphOS team has "stolen source tapes" and if I wouldn't change this bPlan and Thendic can "kick your ass about it" and that I am "in line for legal action"."

Well that kind of invective has come from Matt before so it does sound like him. I dont recall reading anywhere your article " MorphOS team has "stolen source tapes" "

"Several of my requests for confirmation from bPlan, Thendic-France and Ralph Schmidt resulted in absolutely no reply (While prior Thendic was far too eager to send multiple FUD emails with regard to other companies)."

Not a surprise either.

"This combined with the uncalled for FUD and misinforming emails from Thendic-France, with regard to other Amiga companies made me angry and dissappointed with the current state of the Amiga "community"."

Well you are angry at one part of it. I mean Thendic-France does not represent the Amiga community any more than Neko - they represent their own interests.

"Maybe, I have overreacted by leaving everyone behind, "

I agree I think you have. It sounds like, if your version is to believed that you are playing exactly into the hands of those that have pissed you off so.

"as there are still some good people left, as I can see from the emails I am receiving, but that's just the way I feel now about the "community"."

Forget the "community" it doesnt exist and never has done - its just a bunch of computing users with something quite small in common.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: falemagn on October 13, 2002, 01:43:24 PM
Quote
have no problems with making all my email exchanges with Thendic-France publicly available. But the other party must agree with this as well, as I don't want to lower myself to the level, as for example, like where one of Fleecy's emails was presented publicly without his approval.


Then don't mention those "threats". You can't accuse people of threatening you and then don't prove it. If you are not ready to prove your accusations, don't accuse.

Now you can do just two things: either you prove that they threatened you, or you take your accusation back.

Fabio Alemagna
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: falemagn on October 13, 2002, 01:51:29 PM
Quote
(you would not believe how buggy the AROS components are)


Well, bugs get fixed when they are found, and using the AROS components as drop-in replacements for the AmigaOS' ones is a good test bench to find them.

However, regardless of the amount of bugs you found in them (btw, how many exactly you found? Be more precise), I believe the AROS modules have been of great help for you. Without AROS now there would be no such thing as MorphOS either, or am I wrong on this?

Sure, sooner or later even MorphOS would have had its amiga-like components, but not so soon, and much later.

Fabio Alemagna

Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: SlimJim on October 13, 2002, 01:54:05 PM
Regardless of ANY other issues, you shouldn't let yourself being worked up over posts from Neko. Matt Sealey is evidently a very knowledgeable persion (in many different issues), but he is so constantly angry at everything and everyone that any facts he may have is conceiled in a red veil of shouts and insults - is he still banned from the AmigaONE mailinglist? I havent's kept tabs .
 
Reading those poison-dripping posts over the years
(especially over at Moobunny where he has his loyal little court of hateful followers - some of which appear here as well) is actually pretty gruesome. Nowadays he don't appear all that often in the forums where I am. I'm content to see him mostly as an interesting curiosity.  
- and this is the _personal_ impression from someone who hasn't even been flamed by him ever...
 
Regardless of what I personally think of your journalism, Mike, you shouldn't give in due to Neko-semantics. Just learn to select the constructive criticism of those with good intentions (you should generally know who _haven't_ by now...) and evolve as a writer. If someone says you're biased - from any "camp" - be humble and assume they're right. Consider how you might improve the wording next time. First rule of a journalist - don't give up (or was it "bring forth the truth"? - oh well...)
.
SlimJim
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: on October 13, 2002, 01:57:10 PM
LOL. No offense to AROS intended, of course :)

Of course without a real implementation on a well-used box, code just stays buggy. MorphOS (and the recent AROS "Workbench") do a lot to find these bugs and misimplementations.

It's a good thing that the bugs are found/fixed, it would be terrible if all the bugs were behind an impenetrable wall of Belgian Lawyers and dodgy twin coders and were never considered :)
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: DaveP on October 13, 2002, 01:58:11 PM
Wise words from Jim there. This I take issue with:

". First rule of a journalist - don't give up"


No.

"Its get your copy done in time for last orders at the bar and damn the consequences."

But then I speak only from experience at the FT.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: MikeB on October 13, 2002, 02:06:01 PM
@ Fabio

You haven't read my postings careful enough  with regard to those threats. You must have overlooked some text or something, or maybe mis-associated something.

With regard to me being biased, I truly don't understand why you think I would ever have claimed not to be biased.

In fact, I have stated in the past that IMO everyone is biased to some extend. I try not to be, but I and most people know I often write things from an AmigaOS fan perspective.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: SlimJim on October 13, 2002, 02:11:20 PM
"Its get your copy done in time for last orders at the bar and damn the consequences."
 
Hehe. I should have known there was a relation between the declining newpaper quality and the legal closing-time of bars...
:-)
.
SlimJim
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: MikeB on October 13, 2002, 04:57:36 PM
I will be going to Aachen, and then I will evaluate further what I should do. Thanks to everyone who has been emailing me with your support and advice.

Good bye for now.  :cry:
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: z5 on October 13, 2002, 05:20:05 PM
@MikeB:

I've always enjoyed your articles on Osnews. While it was obvious that you were a real AmigaOS fan (OS4/DE/AmigaInc), the articles were always very well written. Maybe a bit too positive for my taste (especially about Amiga Inc and their DE).

I have not read the article on Morphos but maybe it was just not such a good idea for you to write an article on something you are not that fond about (judging by the reactions), especially on a site like OSnews. Certainly you should have known that you would receive a lot of criticism, considering that there are "sometimes extremely funny but utterly useless" flamewars going on at ANN nearly every day.

So what? You learn from everything. The "Amiga community" has become very small and bitter, which is no surprise considering all the setbacks, the dissapointments,... Only new machines and a new OS may take away this negativity.

There are still a lot of nice Amiga people, like here on Amiga.org. So don't take it too personal. I have been dissapointed in forums like ANN, but i've learnt to just enjoy the nice and sensible comments and topics. Quite frankly, i don't care much about what people write on Morphos and OS4 anymore. I just wait until and if both products ship. The rest is just speculation, mud throwing and pure waiste of time.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose. And if you do, learn from it and don't make the same "mistake" again.

All the best.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: AmigaMac on October 13, 2002, 05:54:25 PM
I personally think Amiga and the community is afraid to take Wintel head on, or there would be so much more optimism here in AmiLand!  You people tend to forget that there are newbees here that are waiting for Amiga Inc (or Hyperion and Eyetech) to deliver on their promises just the same as you are.  Yeah it would have been nice to have those machines running AOS4 on our desks by now, but like they say... "best things come to those who wait"!

With the bad attitude is only satisfying those of Wintel... Microsoft and Intel, if you give up on your beloved system, then you're more than likely to go (or return) to the PC platform and start lining the Evil Empire's pockets like they want you to do in the first place!  Bill Gates' dream (in the 80's) was to have Windows PCs in every home running all his software and I doubt that attitude has changed much since then!  So you can give up and make Bill's dream come true, or you can be the same stubborn and optimistic Amigans you once were and keep the faith alive, the choice is yours!!!

 :-D
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: SlimJim on October 13, 2002, 08:32:27 PM
[...]"best things come to those that wait"!...
 
That's a rare quote in those grim amiga days. Keep that flame of hope of yours burning, man!
:-)
.
SlimJim
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: redfox on October 13, 2002, 09:56:25 PM
Is this the "let's put each other down" club?

I thought that was over on ann.lu !

I still haven't figured out if you are all joking or if some of you are actually serious.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: jtsiren on October 14, 2002, 01:28:46 AM
I'm sorry Mike, but I too have to join those who consider your articles a little biased. You seem to treat material coming from Amiga Inc. very positively whereas your comments about the competing product seem lukewarm at best. You obviously made an effort to be objective and avoid passing too much judgement in your MorphOS article, but, well, there is still a distinctly different feel to the article than to those about Amiga Inc.'s activities.

And I'm having a hard time believing this is just because one product is better than the other.

Make of it what you will, I just wanted to let you know that I have to agree with people who have observed a bias. The fact that you do try doesn't really remove the bias even with the best of intentions, and I wonder if that has some effect on the way you perceive e.g. communications from the Thendic France camp as well.

I also have to agree with the people saying provide proof or take back your comments about threats. You already broke confidentiality (if there ever was such assumed) by saying threats were made. Not substantiating them is like writing a blank check. People are now free to think the worst or the best, even if reality is nowhere near their imagination. And what is this FUD you refer to? Please substantiate.

Lastly, I wonder if you consider Amiga Inc.'s or Hyperion's allegations about MorphOS as FUD? And if so, or if not, how would you compare those to any alleged FUD by Thendic France or their partners?

Anyway, I do wish you the best of luck with your articles and your hobby.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: Paul_Gadd on October 14, 2002, 01:55:32 AM
How can anyone take the Morphos article or any other amiga related articles seriously when they are writen by clearly a obsessed amiga inc fan,

People should never write ONE SIDED reviews.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: Seehund on October 14, 2002, 02:15:38 AM
Quote

DaveP wrote:

Forget the "community" it doesnt exist and never has done - its just a bunch of computing users with something quite small in common.


Well, "the community" exists, but just as you say it's only defined by the individual members' ownership of and/or interest in Amiga related technology. Nothing else.

I get the feeling that some people use too many variables to define the "community", and they seem to have a hard time to accept that the individual "members" (users and developers) may have entirely different opinions on matters way beyond the "owning/being interested in Amiga related technologies" bit.

Saying that "I'm leaving the community" is silly IMO, it's not an organisation, it's not a party.

I think that the confusion, the sickening trademark cultism and the sectarianism is probably nourished by the tiny number of community members. There's so few people left, so different opinions are more easily accentuated, and to the imagined "camps" diversity appears as threats. Companies starting to use the term "The Community" instead of "our customers", "our market" (or in the worst cases even "the fanatic sheep who would buy anything as long as it's got a certain trademark") certainly doesn't help.




Anyway, I rather liked Mike's article, at least the paragraph of it that actually provided "A Closer Look at MorphOS on the Pegasos". ;) I could have lived without the stolen-sources-crap (a note that the original article now has been edited from outright accusations to mere innuendo would be nice). I also wonder why there are no links directly to web shops selling the actual product, as I seem to remember a third of another, longer article being devoted to selling T-shirts. ;)
Title: Amiga "community"? What's that?
Post by: Waccoon on October 14, 2002, 03:56:47 AM
Every "community" has its mix of grouchy and dedicated people.  If you think Amigans are uptight and snobbish, take a look at the Linux forums, Mac forums, etc.

I judge a community based on the kinds of products they release and support.  Years ago, the Amiga community was tops because of the public domain scene, and the sheer variety of software that was being produced both commercially and for free.  You didn't see programs like OctaMED and AMOS on the PC.  It's been a long time since anyone has really made a new, groundshaking product for the Amiga.  All the *good* coders have gone to other OS's.

Amiga isn't much of a community as it is a fan club.  Having joined and left the "furry" fandom many times myself, believe me, I know all there is about infantile whiners who only wish to stuff their two cents down other people's throats without actually doing anything to solve problems.

Really, though, we can't expect much from the Amiga community when Amiga Inc. itself isn't participating too much.  Where are those executive updates?  Where are the dev tools?  Where are the "free for a year" SDK updates?  Yes, it takes time and money, but that's what business is about.  You can't just work in a basement and hope the PR problems work out by themselves.  If Amiga lets their community stew in a pool of cluelessness, we can't be surprised if it's overrun by whiners and rumor mongers.

Ironic, isn't it?  In the midst of the information age, companies require developers to sign NDAs, keep quiet about weekly events, and nobody really knows what's going on.  So we all have to pick fights with each other.

I'm not relying on the existing Amiga community for anything.  I'm just sticking around to see if Amiga releases any new products and can rebuild a new community.  In the menatime, I'll be working on my frustrating but productive Windows machine.
Title: Re: Amiga "community"? What's that?
Post by: KapitanKlystron on October 14, 2002, 04:21:38 AM
@Waccoon.

That was really well put. I don't think I could agree with you more. I think there are an awful lot of folks here that would agree with you.
Title: Re: Amiga "community"? What's that?
Post by: Waccoon on October 14, 2002, 08:19:42 AM
I just think Amiga Inc's silence is inexcusable.  Any company that wants to seek an alternative "desktop" market needs to adapt a grass-roots form of marketing.  Keeping quiet about all their operations is not the way to do that.  Even a simple "hello there" on their website would be a help at this point.

Since I want a new Amiga, and not some old hackbox held together with spackle, I don't see the community as a help OR a hinderance.  We need some confirmation that people are alive at Amiga Inc., and *once a product is released*, then we'll see how the community holds up.   :-)
Title: Re: Amiga "community"? What's that?
Post by: on October 14, 2002, 10:07:22 AM
Well I for one have sorta been interweaved in the Amiga subculture for sometime.  Hell, I remember seeing the Amiga in our schools tv broadcasting class.  Seeing the cool stuff in the Amiga magazines, and what not.  Then I remember reading about how Commodore was filing for bankurptecy, and at that time Apple was on the verge of filing too.  Some people I know said that the Amiga and Macintosh would into non-existance.

That was 1994, and I was 14.  Here I am 10 years later.  Apple rebounded and is now selling pretty expensive systems with limited software and such.  And the Amiga community.  Yes it's a community.  It's been lied too, and had empty promises shoved in it's face, yes.

But you know what. Back in 1997, I remember people at the bookstore looking at copies of Amiga magazine, (yes one of the was AF) and looking at pictures of themselves travelling to Amiga conventions.

Yes to this day the people still believe in the power of the Amiga...  ...Their "Friend"  No matter how rough the road, and what not.  The Amiga will stand in history as a computer that took all the conventions of computer history, and threw them out the window (or Windows.)  Jay Miner opened this book, and started to write a wonderful story.  I just think we should quit being so pissy and help him write the next chapter in history.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: MikeB on October 14, 2002, 10:35:37 AM
To all the blind people here,

IMO nobody is completely "unbiased", you can only try too be as much as possible. The fact that someone currently even reviews/previews Amiga products must mean they have a history and opinion.

My MorphOS article was even *too positive* to be entirely unbiased. Anyone comparing their current product with MacOS X or Windows would slaughter it, because the product at this stage is too unstable, lacks compelling features and software support in general.

You guys seem too blind and *biased* to actually understand this.

Yes, I think AmigaOS4 is a good project, from my *AmigaOS fan* point of view, but I see a far greater future for intent personally. Believe me you will *not* find anyone completely unbiased anywhere!!!

I thought I *had* to mention MorphOS' legal status as people working on MorphOS products *have* made legal issues public (i.e. Fleecy's email). Afterwards Bill McEwen did clarify some of this with his public statements. IMO THESE CANNOT BE IGNORED! If Thendic-France didn't want to see this in the public, then they shouldn't have made this public.

Yes, I made a mistake with regard to *one* word, this has changed, I am only human, but I would have expected Bill and Raqual to ask kindly to change this word, if they thought this was needed. They did not, but instead, the choose a Matt Sealey, a person who has insulted me and many people I respect for too many times in the past, to make threats against me.

I have been very clear here, but certain people just seem to ignore the things I have written.

Well maybe many of you will make a great match for Matt and Ralph.

For me, I believe there is a complete lack of values within a very large group of the Amiga community. Without an understanding ear, values, trustfulness, tolerance and respect for eachother, what really makes us human?
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: on October 14, 2002, 10:41:16 AM
I think you should stop saying Matt threatend you unless you can prove it with something... thats not right to do without proof.

I think what makes me human is my species.... :P
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: MikeB on October 14, 2002, 10:43:09 AM
mips_proc, I have quoted him in my postings, what more do you want me to do, Mister GENIUS?

I mean human, figurely, as in terms of distinction between selfcentered, intolerant, disrespectful, beasts.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: DaveP on October 14, 2002, 12:19:04 PM
Mike

I thought you were heading off to aachen to re-evaluate. You have even
said goodbye a couple of times.

People will start to wonder if you are just crying wolf if you keep this up.

Best wishes

Dave
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: MikeB on October 14, 2002, 12:29:16 PM
DaveP, don't make such a stupid remark please.

What I said was true, I will re-evaluate if I continue contributing to this "community" after the Aachen show.

However, if people attack me, I may respond regardless if its on Atari.org, Amiga.org, OSNews.com or anywhere else. Is that so hard to understand? I have a feeling you guys are on a *totally* different frequency level.  :-o
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: DaveP on October 14, 2002, 12:32:57 PM
"DaveP don't make such a stupid remark please."

Wow how to win influence and befriend people by MikeB and
there was no need to be rude. But seeings you have set
the precendence:

Frankly you are coming across as a bit of a bleating mouthy
sanctimonious git ( welcome to the Amiga community ) just
about now.

I must have misread your three "goodbye" messages and misunderstood
the meaning of "goodbye" even though its definition in the
Oxford dictionary is pretty damn clear.

Perhaps you might want to repost yet a few more of your
duplicate messages on ANN and Amiga.org just to remind
us that you really have gone.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: MikeB on October 14, 2002, 12:40:17 PM
DaveP, IMO your remark was somewhat rude and inconsiderate. My goodbyes, were meant as a positive ending, instead of saying nothing at all.

Somethings you can't understand by reading your Oxford dictionary.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: jtsiren on October 14, 2002, 02:05:30 PM
>My MorphOS article was even *too positive* to
>be entirely unbiased. Anyone comparing their
>current product with MacOS X or Windows would
>slaughter it, because the product at this stage is
>too unstable, lacks compelling features and
>software support in general.

Yes, I'm sure it would have. I too have seen MorphOS live. It had some neat apps, and it was fast, but even I could make it crash. I'm not sure how meaningful such a comparison would have been, but I'm sure a new-born beta operating system will have a hard time compared to proven technology with market success. However...

>Yes, I think AmigaOS4 is a good project, from my
>*AmigaOS fan* point of view, but I see a far greater
>future for intent personally.

Therein, I believe, lies at least my personal grievance as I pointed out above. AmigaOS 4 and AmigaDE, what we've seen of both, would be slaughtered just as well by a comparison to Windows or MacOS X. Yet you didn't acknowledge that, and still you went on supporting it in the article quite a bit more than you did the competition.

Even though MorphOS has a lot more to show of its progress at this time than AmigaOS 4 or AmigaDE combined. You seem quite eager to discuss the downsides of MorphOS here, yet I am yet to see any such comments concerning AmigaOS or AmigaDE. Is this because you honestly believe no such grievances exist, or because you "want to believe"?

Sure, intent is a nice piece of technology but in many ways that is as much a separate development as Java is - unless, of course, AmigaDE comes through in some huge way, but we have just about as little information or proof about that as we have of Thendic's eclipsis or related plans.

I firmly believe that if one wants to write an article from a "slaughtering point of view", one could easily and with merit do so for both of these products. It might not be entirely fair, but it would probably be pretty-much factual and representative of the huge uphill climbs these products face.

My point? Claiming you could do this for MorphOS and at the same time going on merrily talking about AmigaOS and AmigaDE like there hadn't been much trouble or lack of evident progress lately, is just a bit unfortunate in my opinion. I would very much hope you can see this issue in a constructive light.

So please, what ever you do, do not take this as a personal attack. I believe in discussing issues, and I hope to tackle these with you to reach a better common understanding. Maybe we can all learn something.

I ask you again, though. Do you consider Amiga Inc.'s accusations on MorphOS as FUD? Do they not distribute fear, uncertainty and doubt about a competing product? Have they been substantiated? And if you think so, or if not, why not? You seem to use the acronym FUD quite often.

>Believe me you will
>*not* find anyone completely unbiased anywhere!!!

I'm not saying they would. I'm sure we could find someone unbiased about this issue in particular, but then that person probably would also have to be completely ignorant and unknowledgeable about it. We all have our histories and biases. But I do believe you have a bias and originally didn't take too well people pointing it out.

I think most people complaining really didn't have a problem with your MorphOS article as such, though. It is, as I said, pretty restrained in this regard and we welcome it. Thank you. However, one doesn't need to go any further than read your comments about AmigaOS and AmigaDE in an earlier article and compare them to the MorphOS article and see a huge difference that is not based on technology comparison, but a simple difference in approach.

Well, even you acknowledge that you are an "AmigaOS fan" and not a "MorphOS fan" and unfortunately this is a little too evident in your articles. The first concludes with calls for help and tributing Amiga Club members, while the latter is far more technical in nature. I would personally prefer if your future articles would all be more like the MorphOS article. It was written more like a news piece than a column.

Having said that, that is probably pretty hard considering that most developments from Amiga can not be tested yet like MorphOS can.

P.S. I personally know the difficulty of writing objectively about a product which one really fancies. I've been down that difficult road myself in the late 90s covering Amiga to a local magazine. I'm sure I made my share of mistakes as well. It is difficult and I sympathize. But I do still strongly believe people have legitimate grievances in this discussion and that you could do well by listening.

Thank you for your attention.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: on October 14, 2002, 02:32:07 PM
MikeB your response to dave simply pointing out that you've said goodbye yet havent left...shows your maturity...a 'posative' ending by starting a flamewar huh?... very mature...

I used to read and take what you said semi-seriousely (as much i can any zealots writings)..I didnt even mind your MorphOS review (albiet definitly biased against it)...but you've shown in this thread...and in general by going around whining about how Neko called you a name...and such...claiming people made threats to you yet not backing it up...that you're over sensative and that you're childish...I've seen you dish criticizm before yet you dont take it very well...that to me is one of the worst combinations.... I insult people sometimes i know i do...when i'm insulted i'm rarely rattled enough to 'run away' from it... as you are from the community....and i think that the first thing you need to do is get thicker skin... if you think getting flamed for OS4 bias is a big deal... try TOS .v. Windows... those Atari zealots make the amiga community look like kids play and i have the feeling when you bump heads with them...unless you've got heavier armor you're gonna wind up running away again.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: DaveP on October 14, 2002, 03:13:25 PM
Mike

Rude and inconsiderate? What should I have been considering?

I was attempting to give you friendly advice although perhaps it
would have been less embarrassing to you via an e-mail.

Not understanding the meaning of "Goodbye", really Mike!! it sounds
like you are trying weasel your way around the issue.

To me at least your multiple "goodbye"s, your cross posting to ANN
consistantly and your reaction to my advice has dented your
credibility yet further.

It seems to me there are like few people left in the Amiga community
I have any affinity with perhaps Bill Hoggett, Bobson, Coder, Wayne,
Redrumloa, Seehund and a very few more.

This "community" is officially a bloody shambles.

Dave.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: MikeB on October 14, 2002, 04:01:37 PM
> This "community" is officially a bloody shambles.

I agree.

It bothers me too much, that we have alot of criminals and FUD/misinformation spreaders among this "community". At least that's why I snapped and leaves me with a very negative humour.

And note that most of the people you named aren't unbiased as well. In fact IMO nobody is completely unbiased, with the likely exception of infants.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: DaveP on October 14, 2002, 04:05:01 PM
Mike

I really don't care if you are biased or not. I think it is ludicrous to
suggest that any one person can be unbiased. However
I do think documents can become less biased to the point
where the bias is imperceptable given sufficient input.

My problem was never that you or your article was not unbiased.

Dave.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: MikeB on October 14, 2002, 04:14:16 PM
jtsiren wrote:

> I firmly believe that if one wants to write an article
> from a "slaughtering point of view", one could
> easily and with merit do so for both of these
> products

Agreed. Note, that I did not slaughter MorphOS neither AmigaOS4 in my articles, I only said it was easy if someone with a MacOS X or Windows perspective would want to do so. Also note that I have pointed out these disadvantages in my Amiga articles as well.

> I'm sure we could find someone unbiased about
> this issue in particular

I believe you are wrong. Currently only one who would want to do an in depth review or preview are people who have experience with the platform.

Even if there were people without any experience they would still be biased. As for instance they have been using Windows or MacOS. And if they haven't used computers at all they would most likely still be biased, maybe they view computers as useless and so forth.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: Billsey on October 14, 2002, 04:50:54 PM
@ MikeB

I know it's difficult, but please don't give up. Bill, Fleecy, and Company need people like you to stick it out and make sure the truth gets out into the public square. People that are spreading lies run from the light. Those who want the truth run to the light. Don't give up. Please.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: SlimJim on October 14, 2002, 04:56:15 PM
>> This "community" is officially a bloody shambles.
 
> I agree.
 
The reason people think like that is that you and others keep repeating it. Sure, there are some rotten eggs here, only looking to stir up trouble and annoy people. But there are also _always_ people (here as well as on ANN) trying to give honest, constructive comments and even positive remarks(!). But the strange thing is that noone care to respond to such constructive and/or positive posts. Instead people bicker to and forth with those few eternal nay-sayers. That's the reason they seem to take so much room these days - the very much existant "worthy comments" are simply ignored.
 If you select to reply to only the negaitive stuff you have yourself to blame when the thread turns into a negative flamewar.
 
So in all, it's you and me that give the few (in our opinion) 'rotten eggs' too much space. Focus on the serious, constructive people (and they ARE there, some of you have just learned not to see them) and stop going on about "the community is in shambles" like it's some god-given truth you (or I) cannot do anything about.
.
SlimJim
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: DaveP on October 14, 2002, 05:05:07 PM
"So in all, it's you and me that give the few (in our opinion) 'rotten eggs' too much space. Focus on the serious, constructive people (and they ARE there, some of you have just learned not to see them) and stop going on about "the community is in shambles" like it's some god-given truth you (or I) cannot do something about."

That sounds suspiciously like sticking your head in the sand Jim

The user base is just constantly gnawing at each other at the moment
and sure, trying to correct it could even perpetuate it but ignoring
it is not going to make it go away either.

Yep, its a shambles - thats what a shambles means Jim it means
something that needs to be sorted out, tackled and turned around
but is in such a mess that you don't really know where to start or
what approach to use.

Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: Phoenix on October 14, 2002, 05:09:40 PM
I love Amiga and its community, any ideas how I can support it more??

I thought the MAC era had gone the way of the dodo, is doesnt seem that way now!

Amiga will return in some form (hopefully not in a furbees brain!!) Long live Amiga!!
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: on October 14, 2002, 05:51:29 PM
I am with you,
I got an "new" Amiga from Merlancia, but it was broken when i got it!
And I feel that Software hut has ripped me off! You are right, the Amiga dealers are not behaving like they should.
But the community is nice :-)


Erik
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: SlimJim on October 14, 2002, 06:03:58 PM
> That sounds suspiciously like sticking your head in the
> sand Jim
 
Actually, I don't think so. My theory (and experience) is that there are a few people (like many famous Anonymous on ANN) that just pops into a thread and spit out something stupid to stir up trouble. It happens all the time and it's mostly very obvious. What bothers me is that everyone starts replying angrily to that "stir-up" post, and simply IGNORES the four-five _sensible_ posters that almost always appear to post "good"/constructive/serious comments right behind the Anonymous one. Those potentially interesting and noteworthy threads are simply lost - and then people start saying that everyone in the community is a fanatic and that all they see is negativity.
 
As long as people don't take time to reply to sensible comments, the "stir-ups" will reign.
 I guess people just like more to follow a good flame-fest then to pick up on the sensible stuff.

> The user base is just constantly gnawing at each other
> at the moment
> and sure, trying to correct it could even perpetuate it
> but ignoring
> it is not going to make it go away either.

I think we should be mature enough to identify and ignore those who only live to pick a fight for the sake of it.
 
> Yep, its a shambles - thats what a shambles means Jim
> it means
> something that needs to be sorted out, tackled and
> turned around
> but is in such a mess that you don't really know where
> to start or
> what approach to use.
 
A community is all in how you perceive it. When I read ANN, I'm constantly amazed when the good/insightful posters are subsequently insulted (albeit indirectly) by people saying that noone does anything but bicker and that the community is crap. Call it "sticking the head in the sand" if you will, but if people would just learn to ignore the right people, the impression of this community as a whole would change to the better.
.
SlimJim
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: magic2002 on October 14, 2002, 06:37:30 PM
I think there ought to be an Amiga Parlament. Your all sounding like ranting five year olds, who`s better than who, your article is crappyer than that. Who cares?

Its JUST A COMPUTER!!! A damn good one and all... :-D
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: jtsiren on October 14, 2002, 11:04:32 PM
>> I'm sure we could find someone unbiased about
>> this issue in particular
>I believe you are wrong. Currently only one who
>would want to do an in depth review or preview are
>people who have experience with the platform.

Well, yeah. What I meant was... and here is the full quote...

"I'm sure we could find someone unbiased about this issue in particular, but then that person probably would also have to be completely ignorant and unknowledgeable about it."

...I meant someone like my mother or someone like that who has no knowledge of computers. I doubt she'd have any bias on this issue, but then, she'd also have no expertise to choose either way.

With expertise comes experience (or, actually, the other way around) and thus bias. On that we do agree. But now we're just nit-picking. Sorry.

In any case, of course, with professional journalists there are guidelines to follow that help control this bias. Such as always asking for both sides of the story and leaving opinions to opinion pieces only (columns). But with the advent of Internet and high exposure and reach of amateur articles, much of this responsibility also falls on amateur writers.

Your articles seem to suggest that not only do you favour one of the alternatives, you actively support and want to support its growth. Or how else would you explain the calls for help in the end of your AmigaOS article versus the far more restrained ending of your MorphOS article?

This is, of course, your choice and you are welcome to have it. I wish you the best. But if you want to be taken as a somewhat objective (a relative term) writer, you may have to choose either the latter way of writing - you probably can't have both without a strong bias shining through.

You said above that you think people like your articles because you add your opinions. I don't know what other people want, but I do know what I'd like to see. I'd really appreciate more articles without opinions and product-support agendas  (and if they are opinion pieces, they should be clearly labeled as such). But that is of course just me.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: DaveP on October 15, 2002, 09:21:34 AM
This is why most sensible forums will accept they
have this problem and "mod down" the stupid comments until they are not seen.

Since when have you seen an "ignore the troll" policy work on USENET for example?

But I do not think this is even what Mike complains about in the community. I am paraphrasing but he does not like the fact that those perpetrating "illegal" activity are getting away with it and their "supporters" are "winning" the argument.

The reason I think the "community" is a shambles is not because of ANN per se but because it has no focus on what it is there for.

Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: on October 15, 2002, 09:39:17 AM
I dunno if you consider me a troll or not...i know i do troll sometimes...but... i dont think 'ignore the troll' works very well...it might here on Amiga.org because we have names...but on say Ann.lu/MooBunny/Usenet/etc it wont work...people change names and come back and do the same stuff again and again....
I know a guy on opn  that trolls amiga on usenet and he dosent even like amigas he does it because the community is easily inflamed he said....
I think the real issue is the 'backlash' things get....i mean...for example you go into a Linux forum and type 'Linux sucks' alot of people dont 'ignore' it they reply but they say 'piss off' or 'go away' ... amiga community tends to actually take these posts serious and try to reason with someone who by nature dosent care what you argue the point of a 'troll' is to get you to waste time.....heh

Amiga's getting alot more trolling lately is a GOOD THING more then a 'BAD" one since it means we have alot more people paying attention and comming around to see what's going on...of course with that the troll count rises but also rises the ammount of good people...and potential consumers for products like the Pegasos/OS4 etc....
I dont mind trolls most of the time i find it funny because it shows who's a moron and who isnt ....sometimes I'm even guilty of getting trolled...but all in all it's part of the fun of the internet.

this post for example...if taken litterly could be a troll...by mike....
since he said he was threatend and looked to provoke some reaction by not posting much more then the fact 'he was threatend'....thats a 'sideways troll' ... coupled whining+accusations ... you got a troll...but we dont look at things technically :O) since it's more fun to troll back and fourth..
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: SlimJim on October 15, 2002, 10:48:14 AM
@DaveP
Quote

Since when have you seen an "ignore the troll" policy work on USENET for example?

 
True. I'm not saying it's possible to eliminate the trolls by ignoring them, what I'm opposing is that people ONLY take the trolls into account, and base their opinion of the community on those alone. People say they don't know how to fix the community. This is my proposal.
 
Quote

But I do not think this is even what Mike complains about in the community. I am paraphrasing but he does not like the fact that those perpetrating "illegal" activity are getting away with it and their "supporters" are "winning" the argument.


Yes I suppose that is his grievance, and that is of course a much more serious problem/accusation than mere troll mentality. I cannot comment on that though as I don't know enough about what is happening behind the scenes. All I see of the community is what I see in the forums.

Quote

The reason I think the "community" is a shambles is not because of ANN per se but because it has no focus on what it is there for.

 
Ah, this is a good point Dave. On this definition of "in shambles" I agree and there is not all that much to do about it.  Until we get some new products to discuss that is - then that problem will just melt away I imagine.
.
SlimJim
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: strobe on October 17, 2002, 11:45:10 PM
The reason MorphOS has so many supporters is because they have shown a new OS running on new hardware which can run their old 3.x software very quickly.

What have we seen from the Amiga partnership? We have seen a demonstration of AmigaOS 3.x with some 4.x elements running on a A4000. It was very buggy and depressing. We have seen the AmigaOne displayed and sometimes running LinuxPPC. I don't know about you folks but I have zero interest in Linux.

What can we expect from Amiga Inc? I expect the AmigaOne with a G3 processor soldered on the board to be sold December this year. It won't run AmigaOS4 for a very, very long time. I expect that some form of AmigaOS 4 will be released for 68k machines late next year. I expect some form of PowerPC capability later than that which will run WarpOS, ppclibrary, etc. titles if you have an accelerator.

What is the absolute earliest we can expect AmigaOS 4 running on new hardware? I wouldn't expect it to arrive before 2004. I would be AMAZED if the 3.x libraries are PowerPC native by then. By then MorphOS ought to have superior compatibility with 3.x titles. In all honesty I don't see why anybody would be prepared to wait that long when we have a fully native OS which can run 3.x software well before then.

Consider this excerpt from the "Finnish Amiga User Group 2002 meeting held in Oulu, Finland on September 28th, 2002" report. From the ReadMe.txt:



vuosi2002_11.jpg: AmigaOneG3-SE motherboard, sadly missing a working BIOS.
Deliveries should start by Christmas.

vuosi2002_12.jpg: AmigaOne-XE prototype, which refused to boot. The user
group will demonstrate a working AmigaOne at a later date.

vuosi2002_13.jpg: Pegasos setup all ready to rock. Notice the gracefully
placed microphone used for Shoutcast streaming.

Please note that "Deliveries should start by Christmas" means the AmigaOne with the G3 soldered on which doesn't have an OS other than LinuxPPC. If, come Christmas, you want to run Linux why would you buy this board? Some people will suggest that buying this board will help support the development of AmigaOS 4. These people will be fools or liars.

The Amiga partnership has been a total and utter embarassment. They have been given the relatively easy task of rewriting AmigaOS into an AmigaOS-compatible OS. BPlan on the other hand wrote a completely new Amiga 3.x software compatible PowerPC-native OS from scratch on new hardware and it actually works.

Amiga Inc, H&P, put up or shut the hell up. If you expect me to believe that the AmigaOne will EVER run anything other than Linux you better demonstrate something better than your already befouled goodwill. Demonstrate AmigaOS 4 even if it's only running on a A4000. Demonstrate it running PowerPC native software. Demonstrate some useful new functionality like memory protection. Please stop showcasing hardware which isn't running AmigaOS. It's sad, it's humiliating, it's old. Stop showing us a friggin list of new features unless they have actually been implemented. In other words stop showing us your TODO list! I mean cripes I could show people MY TODO list and I would look like a young man who traveled the world, won sports championships, and spread peace and prosperity for all mankind!

Amiga users are tired of living in a fooking dream world. Where's the BEEF?!
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: SlimJim on October 17, 2002, 11:52:48 PM
@strobe
 
At first I thought I was seeing double, but you DO post essentially the same post over and over again in as many forums and threads as you possibly can don't you?
.
SlimJim
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: strobe on October 17, 2002, 11:54:44 PM
Oh, and one more thing:

Stop showing us AmigaDE!

AmigaDE has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Amiga except the Name™. What's next? Will Amiga Inc. repackage horsemeat and label it AmigaFood™? If they did I bet you Amiga Inc. zealots would eat it! Maybe you can use the AmigaOne™ as a dinner plate, complete with AmigaFood™. Maybe you could become an official AmigaFool™ and convert all your money to AmigaFeduciaryMedia™ (aka T-shirts and coupons). Maybe you could buy a post-AmigaFood™-compatible disposal unit called the AmigaToilet™.

In all honesty AmigaDE and AmigaToilet have as much in common with the Amiga. Namely nothing but the friggin Name™.

Now give us what we want or we'll buy AmigaFoeOS™
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: on October 21, 2002, 04:33:12 PM
Why are you including H&P in your vitriolic attack? If you got your facts straight you would know they have NOTHING to do with this. You are perhaps thinking of Hyperion?
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: on October 21, 2002, 05:23:37 PM
Ehrmn.

Sorry to interrupt, it was hard to do but I had to (now that I'm not ROTFLMAO anymore).

Why are you guys so angry? Who cares if someone calls you lard-assed ####face or something similar? Sure - if it was someone who was standing in front of me he would get a good bitch-slapping for being a flying turd. But over e-mail or a public forum? Nah...

Second; Why bitch and moan about the community? Who cares about "the fellowship of the amiga-boing-ball" or whatever? Just use your computer and have fun dammit! That's an order!

Third: About threatening someone and so on. Why care? If something happens, fine - their mistake.
Threats are just hollow words until they are put in action. Just tell them to go eat something unpleasant or something and put an /ignore on them.
That wasn't so hard to understand, was it?

========================================
Remember - Guiness is the only drinkable beer.
You must agree. Yep. You must. Cause that's
MY view. And now it is everyone elses. Asswipe.  :pint:
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: strobe on October 21, 2002, 11:06:35 PM
Sorry, I meant Hyperion, and really all members of the Amiga partnership.

I apologize to H+P.

And I'm not attacking anybody, I'm just not impressed with the developments of the Amiga partnership.
Title: Re: Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me
Post by: MikeB on October 22, 2002, 11:57:21 AM
I am happy that many people took the time to contact me and show your support. Of course, I now dislike too many people involved in the MorphOS project personally, at least to write any future in depth articles about this OS.

However I am glad to see that Nicholas is now  part of the Thendic team and also Sharwin and Rakesh look like nice fellows. So I wish them all the best, regardless of some  people I view as idiots.