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Author Topic: Why Amigas never had a chunky mode ?  (Read 2173 times)

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Offline woofTopic starter

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Re: Why Amigas never had a chunky mode ?
« Reply #29 from previous page: June 07, 2016, 01:08:15 PM »
>In 256 colour chunky pixel mode you can use a single byte write to set one colour.

Of course the original question was intended for 8 bits
"Why Amigas never had a 8bits chunky mode?"

In fact I have all the time asked myself "why when they did AGA with 256 colors didnt they do it as a chunky mode ?" They (the smart engineers at Amiga) certainly realise that 4/5/6 bitplanes got sense in A1000 era but 8 bitplanes didnt have sense anymore...

Of course modifying the blitter would have been a big task   ... but even without an updated blitter an A1200 with 8bits chunky would have been a good idea for games like doom/quake that used mostly the cpu for drawing at that time

Alain Thellier
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Why Amigas never had a chunky mode ?
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2016, 01:36:01 PM »
Quote from: woof;809616
Of course the original question was intended for 8 bits
"Why Amigas never had a 8bits chunky mode?"

In fact I have all the time asked myself "why when they did AGA with 256 colors didnt they do it as a chunky mode ?" They (the smart engineers at Amiga) certainly realise that 4/5/6 bitplanes got sense in A1000 era but 8 bitplanes didnt have sense anymore...

Time and money. Pandora was started late as an emergency project by a couple of engineers to stop the company from collapsing, it wasn't a particularly popular project as people needed to justify all the money that had already been spent on AAA. It was put on hiatus part way through development.

The leaked amiga os source code had a future document from the time before AA was released and chunky pixels were mentioned in there.

Quote from: woof;809616
Of course modifying the blitter would have been a big task

The blitter wouldn't necessarily have needed any changes at all. Although this would require you to have 8 bit masks, which would be slower and take more memory. I doubt that adding the ability to expand a 1 bit mask would be amazingly hard, but if it couldn't be justified then chunky pixels would still have been worthwhile. You would probably also add the ability to create the mask from the source or destination as well. Blitter line drawing and area fill would need more work, but again it's probably not that much and wouldn't be a huge problem now if it wasn't done.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 01:42:14 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline polyp2000

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Re: Why Amigas never had a chunky mode ?
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2016, 03:37:36 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;809582

There's also the problem that the Amiga blitter accesses memory at 16 bit boundaries


Is this also the case on the 32bit Amigas ? A4000 / A1200 ?

N.

Offline Ral-Clan

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Re: Why Amigas never had a chunky mode ?
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2016, 05:17:25 PM »
Quote from: Crom00;809443
and the CD32... I really liked it. BUT come on, a main selling point was the 32bits...they used a NINE year old 32 bit CPU. (the 020) came out in 84.

The Amiga 1000 was released in 1985 with a processor (the 68000) that had been first released in 1979.  Sometimes it takes time for a chip to get affordable enough for it to start finding its way into home equipment (i.e. a sub-$300 game console like the CD32).
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Offline rockape

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Re: Why Amigas never had a chunky mode ?
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2016, 06:18:34 PM »
Hi,

There's a lot of talk about "Hazy" Dave Haynie's work but no URL.

See  http://www.thule.no/haynie/

"Advanced Amiga Architecture (AAA) overview (PDF)"


Regards, Michael

aka rockape
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Offline NorthWay

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Re: Why Amigas never had a chunky mode ?
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2016, 08:46:54 PM »
Quote from: kolla;809592
What prevents darn fast planar modes on modern FPGA? :)


Learning to walk before you can run. The FPGA projects has so far had enough to do with getting stable, compatible and feature complete. (Well, available too for that matter.)
Next, getting the cpu part up to speed(hah!) is typically also more important as users might be used to faster solutions from back in the day, and because compatibility is good across different cpu versions and speeds.

Throw compatibility to the wind and you can go as fast as you can make it. The overarching(?) problem is the fixed clock and access slots in the chip architecture. Modern memory likes to do sequential access to get effective bandwidth but you can change pointers every 2(IIRC) lowres pixels with original timings which ruins what your memory can do for you. If you make a chipset you can access faster then it just gets "worse".
Any new chipset wants to be both modern and compatible and so it has to abide by the original rules and also present its own new ones - and these new rules have to be less flexible necessarily, much like AGA probably. The logic that was so clear with OCS starts falling apart when a register update doesn't take effect before long after when many many more probably have been done.

The only through-and-through high-end solution for a modern chipset would probably be SRAM based which is deterministic for any access but still has the same problems with price and memory size as it has always had...
 

Offline kolla

Re: Why Amigas never had a chunky mode ?
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2016, 11:35:37 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;809596
What's the use?


To run Amiga applications, of course :hammer:
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
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CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
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Offline psxphill

Re: Why Amigas never had a chunky mode ?
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2016, 02:02:08 AM »
Quote from: polyp2000;809621
Is this also the case on the 32bit Amigas ? A4000 / A1200 ?


Unfortunately so, they only changed the display to use 32 or 64 bit fetches. This does mean that even a 256 colour 15khz screen has plenty of chip ram bandwidth available to the cpu and blitter, but the blitter is a bit of a waste.

I don't think they changed copper either. It's traditional commodore though, the C64 was rushed and so was AA, the difference is that the later didn't need to be (the C64 was pretty cutting edge).
 

Offline kamelito

Re: Why Amigas never had a chunky mode ?
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2016, 06:47:30 AM »
The Atari 600/800 were cutting edge in 1979.
Kamelito
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Why Amigas never had a chunky mode ?
« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2016, 11:23:39 AM »
Quote from: kamelito;809647
The Atari 600/800 were cutting edge in 1979.
Kamelito

It was expensive, only had 8k of ram, the sound chip is horrible. It had lots of colours (like the Atari 2600), but limited sprites.

The Atari 800XL was better because it had 64k of ram, the sound chip was just as bad and the games still looked as horrible as they did in 1979. That may not have been a problem but they couldn't make enough of them, which led to the rumour they were stopping manufacture. And they couldn't compete on price and still make a profit. Once the software developers realised that people weren't buying them, they stopped writing games for them.

The only game that I have ever seen that blows away the c64 was the recent space harrier port. I know technically there are some good things about the Atari 800 design and poor about the c64, but in practice they don't matter enough.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 01:05:04 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline kamelito

Re: Why Amigas never had a chunky mode ?
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2016, 09:54:37 PM »
Rescue on Fractalus come to mind.
Kamelito
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Why Amigas never had a chunky mode ?
« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2016, 12:44:22 AM »
Quote from: kamelito;809667
Rescue on Fractalus come to mind.


I played it on the c64, I don't remember if I played the Atari version. How different is it?
 

Offline smerf

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Re: Why Amigas never had a chunky mode ?
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2016, 03:47:46 AM »
Quote from: kamelito;809420
It was planned for AAA. (See Dave Haynie)
Kamelito


Why would you want to see Dave Haynie, he is still working on the Super AAA chip set.

smerf
I have no idea what your talking about, so here is a doggy with a small pancake on his head.

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Offline kamelito

Re: Why Amigas never had a chunky mode ?
« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2016, 07:16:23 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;809673
I played it on the c64, I don't remember if I played the Atari version. How different is it?


I'd say faster and more colorfull check on YouTube.
Kamelito
 

Offline kamelito

Re: Why Amigas never had a chunky mode ?
« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2016, 07:17:14 AM »
Quote from: smerf;809686
Why would you want to see Dave Haynie, he is still working on the Super AAA chip set.

smerf


?
Kamelito
 

Offline jltursan

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Re: Why Amigas never had a chunky mode ?
« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2016, 07:57:19 AM »
Quote
It was expensive, only had 8k of ram, the sound chip is horrible. It had  lots of colours (like the Atari 2600), but limited sprites.

POKEY has a distinctive sound and well used usually beats the Texas or GI rivals. It's just a matter of taste but it's far from horrible :)

 Miner's chipset design was mindblowing from the beginning, I'm not going to say that it's superior that VICII+SID (that I really believe it's not); but given the date, it's an extremely powerful design.
Last years we've been enjoying developments pushing the architecture to its limits and are truly amazing for a 79' dated machine.