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Offline Colani1200

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Re: How to move AROS forward
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2008, 08:14:18 AM »
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Wolfe wrote:

AROS for 68k, a great path to go for freedom from 3.x

...and no hardware to buy. Great idea. I think we already have that. :roll:
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: How to move AROS forward
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2008, 11:15:36 AM »
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HenryCase wrote:
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Matt_H wrote:
With the current lack of manpower, formally forking AROS will just create 2 stagnant projects.


Bingo.


Hahaha, but no... Go on fork it now, it's easy! Download the souce code, set up an SVN server, and then develop it how ever you like... Try and get devs on board though and see how far you get... If you make a sucess then what have we lost?

But like most in the Amiga scene it's all just talk... at least the AROS team as it is DOES achieve something.

I summise that the current AROS devs just work in their spare time and work on what parts they understand or find interesting. They do a fine job. If you make fork, they're not going to work on that fork (they don't have the time or the motivation)... the Main AROS tree wil develop as it always has, and your fork will die.

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saimon69 wrote:
Inside the same thread a proposal from HenryCase in order to avoid a fork and provide both new ways to evolve AROS (such as the holy memory protection grail) and in the same time provide the compatibility with the 3.1 API, but cannot say more about it because he haven't laid out anywhere yet, well maybe this is the right time....


Well remembered. I'm not going to say any more on the subject until I'm ready to code a 'proof' for my theory (the MP issue always causes a sh*tstorm), so you're right, now is not the time.


It can't be done... the AmigaOS design does not allow for MP... I am happy to talk you through it again... it's a topic I actually enjoy talking about.

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uncharted wrote:
Proposing a sensible path forward (see above - you did actually read it all before going onto the defensive didn't you?)


uncharted, thank you for ideas, but as you can see from saimon69's post AROS fans already discussed these same ideas a few months ago. Some would argue we lost a good developer out of those discussions (though there were other factors at play too).


Yes, we lost a great developer... but even though he has now left, he contributed a great deal to the AROS project!

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I'd say yakumo9275's response was justified. Too many armchair experts (including myself), not enough developers, that's AROS's main problem, so what are you going to do to fix that?


I don't think AROS actually has a problem at all... we are half way throguh 2008... the whole concept of the Amiga is VERY VERY dead.

AROS is now very much a hobby project, and as such it's actually doing very well. I can install it on my various computers, it functions just as my old Amigas function, it's fun to play with... it costs me nothing to mess around with... I have the source code if I want to try out an operating system idea, I can try it out, because of AROS I understand how AmigaOS actually works and the design choices made and why... and seeing the flaws in it made me apprciate the design choices and trade offs made in other operating systems...

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Anyway, contribute something concrete to AROS and I'm sure you'll get a more favourable response to your ideas.


Anyone is free to contribute to AROS, and also use AROS as a learning tool!

Offline Wolfe

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Re: How to move AROS forward
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2008, 03:56:28 PM »
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Colani1200 wrote:
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Wolfe wrote:

AROS for 68k, a great path to go for freedom from 3.x

...and no hardware to buy. Great idea. I think we already have that. :roll:


My thought on this was for the future . . .

I have an A1200 for it until Natami  :-D   Arrives . . .
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Offline Wolfe

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Re: How to move AROS forward
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2008, 04:18:32 PM »
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pkillo wrote:
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Yes, I realize MorphOS 2.0 has released, but where's the hardware.  The price . . .  :crazy:    Efika . . .  :lol:


don't laugh, the efika is a nice little system. I'm thinking about buying a second one, actually - my fiancee loves the idea of the low power consumption and only needs basic functions (word processor and email). the morphos team promised 2.0 the second quarter and delivered despite some, myself included, thinking they would not; I think I will not be as surprised if we see MOS on Mac Mini systems soon. :)


But its not fast enough to replace my A1200 and all its games etc . . . My migi is getting old.  Now if all I needed was to check mail and surf the web etc., well, still, the cost of the OS  :crazy:   Just buy a chesp PC and run BeOS . . .  :-D Or Zeta like me . . . As I don't like Linux . .  :-x

Now, when they release a version for the Mac Mini 1.5 (which I have and use side by side with my Zeta Box) I might buy it since I already have the hardware and can get more use out of Morph OS . . .  :-)
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Offline HenryCase

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Re: How to move AROS forward
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2008, 05:55:50 PM »
@bloodline

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bloodline wrote:
Hahaha, but no... Go on fork it now, it's easy! Download the souce code, set up an SVN server, and then develop it how ever you like... Try and get devs on board though and see how far you get... If you make a sucess then what have we lost?


I agree that creating a fork isn't necessarily hard (or a bad thing for that matter) but I would prefer to keep the number of forks to a minimum. Where do you think I would be getting those developers from, the AROS dev community or elsewhere? If I'm going to get new devs involved, I'd much rather they worked on the main x86 (or x86-64) AROS branch.

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bloodline wrote:
But like most in the Amiga scene it's all just talk... at least the AROS team as it is DOES achieve something.


I agree, and that's why I admire the AROS devs, they're making a real positive difference in the Amiga community.

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bloodline wrote:
I summise that the current AROS devs just work in their spare time and work on what parts they understand or find interesting. They do a fine job. If you make fork, they're not going to work on that fork (they don't have the time or the motivation)... the Main AROS tree wil develop as it always has, and your fork will die.


The only (new) fork I would be interested in would be a native 68k port. There are other projects I would rather complete first as I don't possess all the necessary skills to work on a 68k fork. The first major project I'd like to tackle is an AROS audio player, though I must admit that I'm still in the early stages of learning C programming properly.

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bloodline wrote:
It can't be done... the AmigaOS design does not allow for MP... I am happy to talk you through it again... it's a topic I actually enjoy talking about.


Glad you feel that way bloodline, I didn't want to feel like there was a negative vibe after our last discussions on the subject (and other subjects), but I did feel that vibe, which is one of the reasons I held off.

So lets start this discussion again, but first a question... can you name me two Amiga programs that are designed to trade data with each other through memory addresses?

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bloodline wrote:
Yes, we lost a great developer... but even though he has now left, he contributed a great deal to the AROS project!


Yes, Robert N did contribute a great deal to AROS, but to those who are unaware of the situation it's best we clarify the outcome of the 'AROS fork' discussion he started was not the main reason he left us.

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bloodline wrote:
I don't think AROS actually has a problem at all... we are half way throguh 2008... the whole concept of the Amiga is VERY VERY dead.

AROS is now very much a hobby project, and as such it's actually doing very well. I can install it on my various computers, it functions just as my old Amigas function, it's fun to play with... it costs me nothing to mess around with... I have the source code if I want to try out an operating system idea, I can try it out, because of AROS I understand how AmigaOS actually works and the design choices made and why... and seeing the flaws in it made me apprciate the design choices and trade offs made in other operating systems...


AROS doesn't have a problem in the sense that it is still alive and progressing, but it has great potential that is still untapped, which we would be able to tap with more developers. In my opinion AROS should be the most popular of the three modern Amiga based OS's, why do you think that it is not?
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Offline Dr_Righteous

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Re: How to move AROS forward
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2008, 07:24:19 PM »
I'll throw my 2 cents in here...

AROS is absolutely usable, looks great, performs well, etc. It has for a long time now. That said I think all development needs to cease, and be re-focused on 3 vital projects:

Modern web browser (started, but needs more hands)
JAVA runtime environment (I see no mention of this anywhere)
Multi-IM client (at least Yahoo and G-Talk)

Take care of these projects and everything else will fall into place quickly. Give us web access and chat capabilities. Getting JRE working we'd instantly have a lot more applications to run.

This gives us BASIC usability using the old PCs most of us already have. With that, more programs will be written as more people will be interested in it, some of them programmers.

Look at BeOS, how much stuff was written for that before it tanked? Just because people were using it. QNX, looked promising till the morons who owned it closed it off. Linux's problem is it's too complex for the average user's desktop... Yet look how much development goes into programs for Linux, just because it CAN be used.

AROS gives us the ease of AmigaOS, with the power and cost effectiveness of x86. We don't need it on dead architectures, we need it on x86. We don't need backwards compatibility, we need to move forward. We don't need to run Amiga programs on it, we have UAE and real Amigas for that.

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Re: How to move AROS forward
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2008, 08:43:04 PM »
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Wolfe wrote:
But its not fast enough to replace my A1200 and all its games etc . . . My migi is getting old.  Now if all I needed was to check mail and surf the web etc., well, still, the cost of the OS  :crazy:   Just buy a chesp PC and run BeOS . . .  :-D Or Zeta like me . . . As I don't like Linux . .  :-x


Do you mean it's not fast enough to emulate an A1200? Because it's certainly faster than one. I don't understand what you are saying - it's a PPC chip at 400MHz, which is much faster than an 68020, and still faster than any accelerator you could put into a 1200. Please explain.

As far as the cost of the OS, well, the way I'm figuring it, it's cheaper than Linux. An EFIKA costs $4.38 to run for a year, assuming it's on 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. A PC will cost (worst case) 100x that to run, or $438. (My PC has a 500 watt power supply, the EFIKA a 5 watt power supply. Many people now have PSUs in their PCs that draw even more power than that.) Even if my PC only consumes half that power (unlikely given it's almost never idle) I'm still looking at $219 in the first year of ownership. So, after a year, I've broken even buying MorphOS for an EFIKA, assuming it takes the place of a PC running Linux. If it runs Windows instead, then the PC could have a 300 watt PSU and the numbers come out the same, as Windows costs about $90.

btw, I'm curious about this Zeta os you mention. I did a quick google and didn't find anything. AFAIK BeOS lacks support for modern hardware and Haiku is not ready yet. I would like a nice alternative to Linux - I don't hate it like you say you do, but I do not believe it belongs on the desktop of anyone but a hacker. :)

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Now, when they release a version for the Mac Mini 1.5 (which I have and use side by side with my Zeta Box) I might buy it since I already have the hardware and can get more use out of Morph OS . . .  :-)


Well, I don't think you'll have long to wait. We should see it the fourth quarter of this year, hopefully. :) I too have a Mac Mini (1.42 though) that I'd like to put back in service with a new OS.
 

Offline yakumo9275

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Re: How to move AROS forward
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2008, 09:08:35 PM »
the problem with mac minis for morphos if they do it, 1 - the stock mini has barely any video ram onboard (some models 32mb some 64mb), and upgrading that is a nightmare,sice you cant just stick in a pc agp card, you need one with a mac bios (afaik...). different cards manufacuters use different ram chips so a mac compat bios is not often easy to get etc.





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Re: How to move AROS forward
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2008, 09:23:45 PM »
@yakumo: it's true, this will be a limitation, but my 1.42 mini was able to play back dvds and avi and mpeg files without problem while running all the extra overhead of OS X, so I think it would perform nicely enough running MorphOS. and, on a subjective level, when I compared the video performance of my mini (when i first got it) to a PC with the same radeon 9200 but with 128mb of vram the Mac was holding its own. couldn't tell you why, it just did.

for gaming, maybe this would be a larger issue but I don't see gaming being the application of choice on MorphOS. If you want to game, you're going to run out and buy a high-end PC so you can run your favorite MMORPG or multi-player shoot-em-up or else you're going to use a console system like the Wii or PS3.  
 

Offline HenryCase

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Re: How to move AROS forward
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2008, 12:22:40 AM »
@bloodline
Don't worry about answering my previous question, let's start the MP discussion now.

Okay, I'd like to start this post by making a couple of things clear. First of all, there are three separate questions we could discuss (as far as I can see) when it comes to the possibility of MP:

1. Can it be done?
2. Can it be done elegantly?
3. Should it be done?

I hope you will agree that there is little point answering questions 2 and 3 if we do not agree that the answer to question 1 is yes, so that's what we should focus our discussion on IMO (at least at first). What this means is that if the MP implementation is a complete bodge job but works successfully then it can satisfy the criteria for answering question 1 and we can move on to the 'should we/how best do we' do it part of the discussion.

Next, I'd like to outline what I'd class as successful MP. To me the job of MP isn't to make individual applications less prone to crashing, but rather to ensure that when applications crash they don't take down the operating system and other applications with them. That is the base functionality of MP IMO, do you agree? I would also say that close to that core MP functionality is the ability for the OS to attempt to recover the data the application was using before the crash, but that is not a function I will focus on for now.

==============================================================
Right, down to business. A program in AROS is loaded. The memory manager assigns a unique ID to that program. The program starts requesting RAM space from AROS to store its data. These calls will either be for:

A space in memory of a specific size but undefined location.
or...
A space in memory of a specific size and location.

The AROS memory manager I am proposing doesn't give programs a memory address based on the location requested, but rather provides a 'virtualization' layer. When the program then tries to call data from a memory address it thinks is set in RAM, the memory manager calls the data from where it is really stored and presents it to the program. The program doesn't know the difference.

Lets take an example to illustrate this further. The program Lunapaint is loaded. AROS assigns Lunapaint the ID 0111. Lunapaint then requests a 5-bit memory address space starting at address 3FDF. That address is already taken in RAM by the program Wookiechat, but this doesn't matter to us. The 5-bit memory space is put in the address starting A21C instead. When Lunapaint tries to read or write to the memory space it thought was at 3FDF, the memory manager knows that the data stored in 3FDF for program ID 0111 is actually at A21C and pulls this data instead.

So what does this mean? It means the OS has taken control of memory allocation away from programs without letting the programs know there is anything different happening. Now lets look at what happens when programs try to pass data between each other through memory addresses.

What we want to be able to define here are the processes that should be allowed to share memory addresses with each other, and those programs that should not be allowed to share memory addresses (prevent problems like buffer overflows for example). The approach I'm proposing here is what I'd call the 'AI' approach, even though the intelligence is not artificial... I propose we use our own brains!

When two programs try to write to the same address space, we get a dialog box pop up on AROS (much like an Internet firewall, such as ZoneAlarm) asking whether we would like for these programs to be able to share memory address space. Taking the Lunapaint/Wookiechat example used above, the dialog box would ask us if Lunapaint and Wookiechat should share address spaces. Our options could be something like:

Share 3FDF, no universal share.
Do not allow programs to share any memory address spaces.
Allow both programs full access to each others memory address spaces.

You might think this would be a pain to set up (having a dialog box pop up every time you open two certain programs at the same time), but a way around this is to use patches. How would this work? Well for patches to be applied the memory structure needs to be consistent every time the program is run (so that if I apply a patch setting to 3FDF one day the patch will work on the same data the next day). However, as we have 'virtualized' memory allocation this is possible. The memory manager is the OS layer doing all of the assigning of memory locations. When a program asks for a memory address in a specific location, we give it a memory location with that label. When a program asks for memory but doesn't specify where that memory should be we make sure that the 'virtualized' memory allocation follows rules, so that we will always be able to find that memory.

For example, on program boot up we are dealing with requests for memory that are always in the same order, so why not give them the labels 0001, 0002, 0003, 0004, etc... From this point on the memory needs of the application are dynamic, so we look at assigning memory labels not on sequence but on a mathematical algorithm based on how they are first assigned and the memory spaces already in use (there may be an easier way of doing this, basically I'm looking for ways to pinpoint the setting of a variable in a program).

Assuming the above variable pinpointing is possible, then we can apply our patches and they can work consistently every time. The memory labels assigned don't affect real memory usage in the sense that all programs can have the 0001, 0002, 0003, etc... labels and the real memory can still be fully utilised.

What would we use these patches for? Well, let's say we never want Lunapaint and Wookiechat to ever share memory addresses. We can create a patch for this. We can also create a patch so that Lunapaint will share certain memory addresses with Wookiechat but won't share those same memory addresses with UAE. The beauty of the patch system is you can make your system as secure (or as open) as you like. You could also distribute these patches between AROS users (like  the way WHDLoad patches are created and distributed).

Okay, so we've looked at taking control of memory allocation, and how we can let programs interoperate in memory with our permission, the final piece of the puzzle is how we handle application crashes. Let's say I write a program for AROS, but I make a mistake so that in certain circumstances I'm trying to write a long string into a space defined for an integer, which causes the program to freeze/crash due to a buffer overflow.

Where does this buffer overflow go? How do we know the program is misbehaving? We have options here. We could let the program write the extra bits into a new 'virtual' address, hoping that the program will run smoothly afterwards (and have rules about how often this 'overflow' storage can happen before we flag up an error to the user) or we could simply flag an error as soon as the the buffer overflow happened. Link this with CPU throttling (so that programs caught in an infinite loop can have their CPU time reduced to avoid crashes) and you have a system that allows you to stop any misbehaving programs.
==============================================================

So we've looked at memory allocation control, memory permissions and crash control. Is there any other factors an OS needs for MP?

Note that the only part in my mind with a question mark over it is how to flag individual variables for 'patching', I'll have to look at how other systems (like compilers) do this, but even if this is not possible you'd still be able to have interoperability settings at the application level (i.e. Program 1 can share memory addresses with Program 2 but not with Program 3), which is still useful for system stability.

Please let me know what you think bloodline. Thanks.
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Offline koaftder

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Re: How to move AROS forward
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2008, 12:35:58 AM »
At some point, most people eventually learn when the fundamental architecture of a system is no longer worth saving...
 

Offline HenryCase

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Re: How to move AROS forward
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2008, 12:41:55 AM »
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koaftder wrote:
At some point, most people eventually learn when the fundamental architecture of a system is no longer worth saving...


That falls into the 'should it be done' MP question category. Do you have any input on the 'can it be done' MP question (based on my last post in this thread)?
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Offline Piru

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Re: How to move AROS forward
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2008, 01:15:57 AM »
@yakumo9275
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the stock mini has barely any video ram onboard (some models 32mb some 64mb), and upgrading that is a nightmare,sice you cant just stick in a pc agp card, you need one with a mac bios (afaik...). different cards manufacuters use different ram chips so a mac compat bios is not often easy to get etc.

Excuse me but where exactly are you going to plug this AGP card?
 

Offline yakumo9275

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Re: How to move AROS forward
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2008, 02:04:34 AM »
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Piru wrote:
Excuse me but where exactly are you going to plug this AGP card?


dang, it all says it has a 4x compatible agp... but I guess its still inbuilt :( mybad. i'll leave this post for posterity :) i see it inbuilt on the underside of the motherboard
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Offline Wolfe

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Re: How to move AROS forward
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2008, 02:13:28 AM »
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pkillo wrote:

Do you mean it's not fast enough to emulate an A1200? Because it's certainly faster than one. I don't understand what you are saying - it's a PPC chip at 400MHz, which is much faster than an 68020, and still faster than any accelerator you could put into a 1200. Please explain.


Amiga software that does hardware banging (emulating the real thing) would be toooooooo slow.

As to energy savings, thats cool, but the OS is tied to the hardware, so, you will be buying anither copy for the Mac?

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btw, I'm curious about this Zeta os you mention. I did a quick google and didn't find anything. AFAIK BeOS lacks support for modern hardware and Haiku is not ready yet. I would like a nice alternative to Linux - I don't hate it like you say you do, but I do not believe it belongs on the desktop of anyone but a hacker. :)


Search BeOS Zeta in Google.  It is BeOS enhanced (some anyway) but it went under due to legal issues.  On the cheap was cheap hardware with BeOS - Modern hardware is more expensive.  I have a Dell 2350 P4 (got it free - recycled), added max memory (1GB) and a PCI NVidia Graphics card (64 MB) All new for under $50.  Add in the cost of the OS, and I still haven't spent much more than an Efika Mobo, without a case, PSU, video etc . . . .  And BeOS Max is on another partition, as well as Amiga Forever 08, and room for more . . .

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Well, I don't think you'll have long to wait. We should see it the fourth quarter of this year, hopefully. :) I too have a Mac Mini (1.42 though) that I'd like to put back in service with a new OS.


Lets hope so . . .  :-D  I still use my mini daily with OS X . . .  With that Mini there is no need to buy an Efika for e-mail etc . . .  :-)   MorphOS is nice though . .  :-)
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Re: How to move AROS forward
« Reply #29 from previous page: July 26, 2008, 02:52:28 AM »
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Wolfe wrote:
Amiga software that does hardware banging (emulating the real thing) would be toooooooo slow.


Fair enough. But how much non-game software fits that bill? The people who want green computers generally aren't gamers. :)

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As to energy savings, thats cool, but the OS is tied to the hardware, so, you will be buying anither copy for the Mac?


Absolutely. The mini is a nice rig, it just needs a less brain-dead approach to its operating system.

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Search BeOS Zeta in Google.  It is BeOS enhanced (some anyway) but it went under due to legal issues.  On the cheap was cheap hardware with BeOS - Modern hardware is more expensive.  I have a Dell 2350 P4 (got it free - recycled), added max memory (1GB) and a PCI NVidia Graphics card (64 MB) All new for under $50.  Add in the cost of the OS, and I still haven't spent much more than an Efika Mobo, without a case, PSU, video etc . . . .  And BeOS Max is on another partition, as well as Amiga Forever 08, and room for more . . .


Cool; I checked out a couple of pages on it. Looks fun; I'll have to check the hardware compatibility list and see if I own anything it'll run on!