We already know about the Natami. They have a team who invite you to be a part of it, then kick you out without explanation, and they remove the posts of experienced and respected Amiga coders from their forum. What a wonderful group of people they are! Already a lot of my friends have decided to not make Natami-enhanced versions of their games anymore, and I'm sure others will drop support once they realise how badly the team is running things.
I used to have unlimited enthusiasm and hope for the Natami, I enjoyed clearing things up about the project with people and explaining more about it in detail, convincing doubters that it's a good idea afterall, encouraging the Amiga coders I meet all around the world that they should think about SuperAGA-enhanced versions of their games. I'm working on games of my own which would have had much nicer graphics if we were still going to make a Natami version. But the Natami team thinks I'm so useless they should just kick me out without telling me why.
I wonder how well they'll do now when so many of their supporters are losing faith in the project because of the bad team management.
We already know about the Natami. They have a team who invite you to be a part of it, then kick you out without explanation, and they remove the posts of experienced and respected Amiga coders from their forum. What a wonderful group of people they are! Already a lot of my friends have decided to not make Natami-enhanced versions of their games anymore, and I'm sure others will drop support once they realise how badly the team is running things.
I used to have unlimited enthusiasm and hope for the Natami, I enjoyed clearing things up about the project with people and explaining more about it in detail, convincing doubters that it's a good idea afterall, encouraging the Amiga coders I meet all around the world that they should think about SuperAGA-enhanced versions of their games. I'm working on games of my own which would have had much nicer graphics if we were still going to make a Natami version. But the Natami team thinks I'm so useless they should just kick me out without telling me why.
I wonder how well they'll do now when so many of their supporters are losing faith in the project because of the bad team management.
Maybe they thought you were mental.
PERHAPS THE AWESOME POWER OF THE NATAMI ALLOWS THE OP TO POST FROM THE FUTURE.
That's really funny, Tension. How come just about any time you post something, it's nasty? I had never directed any of my posts towards you before, yet you have attacked me in the past, and now you attack me again? By the way, what's so "pfffffffft" about a new audio recording application for Aros? Care to explain why the Natami team may think I'm mental, and why that's grounds enough to kick me out of a team I was invited to?
Okay, dish. What the heck went down?
Her name is not "dish", and she should not have to put up with such immature, sexist references on this forum or anywhere else.
I suspect that she might have been kicked off the team for just some stupid sexist reason(s), just because she is an attractive woman, instead of a pimply faced geek.
Her name is not "dish", and she should not have to put up with such immature, sexist references on this forum or anywhere else.
I suspect that she might have been kicked off the team for just some stupid sexist reason(s), just because she is an attractive woman, instead of a pimply faced geek.
Her name is not "dish", and she should not have to put up with such immature, sexist references on this forum or anywhere else.
I suspect that she might have been kicked off the team for just some stupid sexist reason(s), just because she is an attractive woman, instead of a pimply faced geek.
as far as I figure it, they havent asked for anyones money, so they can do whatever the hell they want.
That's no excuse to treat people like dirt.
so why all the sudden piru takes sides with cammy?Why shouldn't I? What's so sudden about it? Please enlighten me.
if they really treat the people like dirt that doesnt say anything about the quality of their wannabe product actuallyNo, but it does say much about the project management, and that'll ultimately affect the product quality as well.
By the way, what's so "pfffffffft" about a new audio recording application for Aros?
I wondered that too (as I am the person who wrote said tool). I just assumed the person writing it was about 13 years old and ignored it (although many of the younger members on this forum are rather mature, actually)....
This thread is funny!! :)
I also can't help but think this thread is biased.
Is cammy really a girl? This is the last place i would expect to find a girl :)
I have to admit that I didn't know about the iffy project manglement with regards tothose trying to help. I posted earlier that people who did nothing had no right to complain.
I would like to see a reply from a current member of the team on this point however as I don't like to damn anyone without hearing both sides of things. Any takers?
Actually they do have the right to pass comment on something regardless of their involvement.
Each to thier own, but this whole Natami thing is kinda ho-hum to me. The only interesting part about it is the potential to replace the aging classic hardware, but there's other options for that too. The idea of "Superaga" is far from exciting to me. Yay, there's hardware that's only 10 years out of date, woohoo :P A better idea to me would have been to simply add some sort of rtg system/hardware to the machine, this way there's actually some advantage to the software available (existing 68k titles that use rtg). I mean really, where is all this "super aga" enhanced stuff supposed to come from? With all of 4.2 games original amiga games made in the last 5 years why would there all of a sudden be new software just because there's moderately enhanced retro hardware available? Additionally the 2 meg chip ram hardly leaves much room for enhanced graphics. ECS/AGA got away with it due to low resolutions and low color depth, up the resolution to even 800x600x24 and 2 meg is nigh on useless. I actually emailed them twice, roughly 12 months and 6 months ago mentioning I was interested in developing for it but received nothing in return (not even a thanks, but no thanks email). From everything Ive seen so far it seems to me that its a project more or less soley for the people behind it, which is fine, stringing others along for the ride however isnt so fine.
Anyway, just my 2 cents. Little bit negative, probably, but it is my opinion.
I just dont see the point of natami anymore and your right - 2mb chip ram is not enough...its between MOS, AOS, AROS.
Why shouldn't I? What's so sudden about it? Please enlighten me.
No I agree with this. I think people have the right to say anyhting they like. And this includes hurtful, personal , damaging things. But thats another topic
Edit: i was replying to the leander who has now changed his post :)
Her name is not "dish", and she should not have to put up with such immature, sexist references on this forum or anywhere else.
I suspect that she might have been kicked off the team for just some stupid sexist reason(s), just because she is an attractive woman, instead of a pimply faced geek.
thank you for helping me in my goal of getting to post 666 on the 31st. XD
You're a MOS developer and as such don't have the right to an opinion about a different amiga offshoot :lol:
I see American and not English is your mother tongue.
There is nothing sexist about asking someone to "dish" details. :sigh:
I must admit, MOS is tempting me more each day, I would like to see MOS for SAM too however, that would be a very nice idea. In my opinion.
Intentionally offending Christians a regular past-time of yours it it?
We already know about the Natami. They have a team who invite you to be a part of it, then kick you out without explanation,
16:08 < forcie> hello cammy
16:08 < Cammy> Hi forcie
16:08 < forcie> you are listed as a natami team member
16:08 < forcie> do you have a team forum account?
16:10 < Cammy> Yeah I do, but I've just been too shy to introduce myself yet, I don't really have anything to show
16:10 < forcie> you should hang around in the #natamidev channel every now and then, since thats where the team gathers to talk.
16:11 < forcie> information how to access ftp, svn, trac/wiki and irc is in a forum thread
16:11 * Marcel blissfully forgot to mention that
16:11 < Cammy> I don't think I'd have anything to talk about in there, I'm no one important
16:12 < Marcel> Cammy look at the topic here
16:12 < forcie> we are making games, and i thought you might have valuable input :)
16:16 < IImmortal> cammy well you are more important then i am. i am not a team member
16:17 < Cammy> I'm only a beginner programmer
16:17 < forcie> we have quite a few beginner programmers
16:18 < forcie> most of them wants to talk to us
16:18 < forcie> it's a community effort after all.
16:18 < IImmortal> yep marcel and i drive forcie insane
16:19 < IImmortal> and we would do other team members if they were ever to come in here :)
16:19 < Cammy> I'm sorry, if I'm just going to be a third wheel here I can leave if you want
16:19 < Marcel> IImmortal i never drove gunnar insane here
16:19 < Cammy> I don't want to waste anyone's time
16:19 < Marcel> Cammy what do you know of graphics and music on the amiga?
16:20 < Cammy> Nothing
16:20 < Cammy> I'm useless
16:20 < Marcel> Cammy never say your useless
16:20 < forcie> Cammy: but why did you join the team then if you dont want to communicate?
16:20 < Cammy> I didn't join, I was invited
16:20 < IImmortal> marcel well then just consider gunnar your exception :)
16:20 < forcie> really? by whom?
16:20 < Cammy> I don't want to incriminate anyone
16:21 -!- Cammy (~Cammy@73.38.96.58.static.exetel.com.au) has quit
Yes, they tortured and burnt many of my family during the inquisitions so I can't say I care much for them.
Holy crap, and I though I could hold a grudge! :roflmao:
Yes, they tortured and burnt many of my family during the inquisitions so I can't say I care much for them. The popes belated apology is laughable too. The two main core orders of the inquisition still exist. Do you think a Jew would accept an apology if the German army still had the SS? I think not.
Christians have far too much glass in their houses to start throwing stones.
Her name is not "dish", and she should not have to put up with such immature, sexist references on this forum or anywhere else.
I suspect that she might have been kicked off the team for just some stupid sexist reason(s), just because she is an attractive woman, instead of a pimply faced geek.
Dave, I can accept your affection for Cammy, but while defending her you yourself have offended others. Why would you assume a "GEEK" would have to have a pimply face? I have been considered a geek my whole life, but I have never had an acne problem. In fact, I have been told by many I am very pleasant on the eyes. I think other geeks would feel the same way.
Two wrongs don't make a right my friend.
How many functional Natami boards are there?
nice troll
nice troll
So are there any functional boards?
Do they plan to mass produce Natami?
AGA not working then, why video of all non AGA games ?
Do you know I was thinking along very similar lines :)
:D
Check your PM's
What really. The guy out of an office and a gentleman and a Hamster :)
You think thats bad, should read his contribution to OS4 related threads.
im a troll
Hello people, I am André from the Natami Team.
I will try to answer to the best of my knowledge :)
But first, the issue with Cammy. Cammy, it saddens me to read what you write. I was the person trying to encourage you to talk to us in that IRC log, giving you various options for participating in the project and discussing your involvement and your planned software, access to our version management and roadmap system, etc. You made it pretty clear to us that you simply did not want to communicate with us. Since this was in a public IRC channel, there were several witnesses to this discussion, so you cannot say we made it up in any way.
I agree that team management was quite sloppy - most projects involving restricted Subversion/CVS systems etc. would actually have removed your access almost immediately after hearing something like the above. But we gave you several months before deciding to remove your access after your continued silence. As Gunnar says - motivated people are very welcome to the team. You are of course welcome back too, but if you do not talk to us, what is the point of it all? Please do understand that this is nothing against you personally, but we have to set some kind of limit for a minimum amount of communication.
Having cleared that up, I should talk a little about the past and present state of the project. The first Natami prototype was a 68030-based card running on top of the C-One. This was shown to the public in 2008. Thomas Hirsch spent a few years before he reached this point - I am pretty sure he started even before Mr. Van Weeren started on his Minimig project. :)
In 2008 the Natami team talked about releasing a system based on an enhanchment of this prototype before the end of the year.
However, after considerations, the team decided to remove the real bottlenecks of the design - i.e., the outdated memory system. This resulted in a major redesign of the Natami, with the goal of implementing a DDR2-based pipelined burst memory system design. Thus the "missed release date" in 2008, that people like to bring up now and then.
Finishing this new memory system design resulted in the production of the Natami LX prototype card this year. After evaluating the LX board in various ways and adapting the Amiga chipset to the new design, a process which is documented both on our forums and in the aforementioned Youtube video, lessons were learned and ideas how to optimise the design into a board ready for public use have been implemented in the new Natami MX board design. Thomas Hirsch is currently occupied with the integration of a few new yet-to-be-announced components in the board.
Regarding the softcore 68k CPU, the N68050, development is going very well. The current softcore version has been "done" for quite a long time and the CPU team are in late optimisation and polishing stages, and are currently discussing which instructions it would be most beneficial to use the last unused instruction space for. Considerations and planning for the future N68050E and N68070 architectures are well underway.
Finally, a few small points :)
- A lot of people talk about the project being stalled by "feature creep". In fact, the only "feature creep" has been about adapting the Amiga chipset to DDR2 RAM, which took about two years of hard work.
The other side projects are just team members making themselves useful while Thomas is working on the chipset implementation and board designs. Discussing and working on various sub-projects related to the Natami does not slow Thomas down - he works at his own pace.
- The YouTube video posted does infact show AGA - several AGA screenmodes, including HAM8, are displayed. But full AGA support was not implemented on the LX board at that time - so that is why there are no AGA games in the video. Note that it is a "Stage 1" video - implying that there will be later stages.
- We do not use the hardware designs and FPGA configurations of other projects, including but not limited to Minimig AGA. :) A while ago, we discussed with the FPGAArcade dudes about sharing the softcore CPU:s, but this was quite a long time ago and did to my knowledge not happen.
The Minimig AGA and Minimig cores can stand on their own, and so can we. It is very good for everyone that those projects exist alongside Natami, because this means that there will be higher-end as well as lower-end options for people who want to run systems based on the classic Amiga chipset in the future.
Sorry for the great wall of text...
I am happy to answer any of your questions if I am able to. But please understand that the FUD and finger-pointing some people seem to be fond of posting is not really encouraging. Skepticism is healthy, but try to not be mean. :)
i guess basically i'm saying that a large stfu is in order.
- A lot of people talk about the project being stalled by "feature creep".
@lou-dias thought you would be busy porting os4 to the gamecube or wii.
LTNS Nik, btw nice find with that slowed down U Smile. Hows things?
I think if people get offended by somone saying that geeks have pimply faces, then its them with the issue. Come on, it takes far more effort to be offended and angry about things written on the internet than to let them wash over you.
@forcie very well written post.
@lou-dias thought you would be busy porting os4 to the gamecube or wii. I was asking why no aga games in video. was a valid question. so why dont you stfu
AGA not working then, why video of all non AGA games ?
My point was that while dave was trying to defend Cammy for some reason, he himself was insulting others. It was not specificly about geeks with pimply faces. As far as someone getting angry, I rarely get angry or annoyed by anyone. I would never get mad at some inane blog entry where users mostly know nothing about other users. Well I guess I should go Pout now since someone responded to my entry.:roflmao:
The sooner you all go buy Playstation 3's the better!
Stop this silly nonsense.
Amiga is DEAD.
D E D
DEAD.
Tee Hee, Duck Tape...
Tee Hee, Duck Tape...
@amigadave
If you're gonna start behaving like a reasonable adult then you might have to find some other forum.
Wow I didnt think this thread would drag out like this, I was excited at the fact that i could wipe the dust off my old Amiga Floppys and use them again.
You already can if you're running OS4 (but you need a Catweasel)....
...
D E D
DEAD.
It's a hobby project. I do not believe it will ever be commercially available. Supposing it is it will be pretty lame and not worth the money.
The window for a super AGA Amiga is passing while AROS is going full steam.
It's a hobby project. I do not believe it will ever be commercially available. Supposing it is it will be pretty lame and not worth the money.
The window for a super AGA Amiga is passing while AROS is going full steam.
Most of the Amiga electronic components are 20 years old or so and held together with duck tap.
That window will always be open at my house. Besides, the two projects are not competing with one another. Advancement of AROS, especially 68k AROS, only helps the Natami.This. Hobbyist efforts are not a zero-sum game. What benefits one project can easily benefit others, as long as the teams involved aren't trying to wage turf wars against each other.
What I find interesting about Natami is that I took about 10 months off from the Amiga forums (logged back in today), only to see that Natami has yet to be released. I still have some optimism about the project, though.
I think they're waiting for the Minimig AGA to be released to copy their code. ;)
The reality is that the board went from 4-layer to 6-layer to add onboard add Gbit-ethernet and USB. Hence, going from LX to MX has taken longer than originally planned. A PCI slot was removed and 2 more memory chips were also added...Why does this remind me of BoXeR (http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/boxer.html)?
Why does this remind me of BoXeR (http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/boxer.html)?
No one wants to buy a computer today that can't get online out of the box...the Natami team included.
Back in the day when it was first announced I had such high hopes for the BoXer :(
Those were the glory years for Vapourware.
Come on guys stop being so negative... you sound like my parents before they got a divorce...
Well whadya want...these projects are hard enough to get off the ground to begin with. I'm amazed we have MiniMIG and new Turbocards from Jens. Be thankfull for what we have.
That being said I was totally drooling for the G4 phase 5, AmiJoe, etc. I feel your pain. I'm happy with UAE and a 42" lcd for now. (no flicker fixer or $50 or coverter cables required)
Feature creep is the grim reaper of the IT world....
Well, it would be useful if there was an Amiga App Store style thing (e.g., to download games from the various Amiga freeware/abandonware game sites; access aminet; etc). If GigE is pennies more than 100mbit then it sounds like there's a purpose to it.
In the end it depends on the cost of the final board. I think there's room for both an FPGAArcade and a Natami (later on, when it's complete) in my life though.
The boards are not in production right now. But they are close to. Designing the MX board took much longer than I expected. There are only "small" changes to the LX board. But they increased the complexity very much. There are now four memory chips on board instead of two. And I removed one PCI connector to make room for two on-board PCI components (USB and LAN). For that the board has now six layers instead of four.
I thought that this would be possible but the Minimig license renders it unusable by the team. Yes, I've asked this on the forum.
The reality is that the board went from 4-layer to 6-layer to add onboard add Gbit-ethernet and USB. Hence, going from LX to MX has taken longer than originally planned. A PCI slot was removed and 2 more memory chips were also added...
...but I suppose someone looking for actual answers would have gone to the official forum and discovered this for themselves...
[listens for the wolves to cry 'feature creep']
No one wants to buy a computer today that can't get online out of the box...the Natami team included.
Who remembers the A-Box and it's famed Caipirinha custom chip?
Who remembers the phase5 BlizzardG4
Why is that? The Minimig is Open Source isn't it? Does that prevent the NatAmi team using the code for a retail product?
The problem is that we keep hearing "NatAmi will have this", "NatAmi will have that" on these forums, but we never see pictures or hard specs. With regards to the FPGA Arcade/Minimig AGA, we have pictures posted, we see Workbench running, we have production updates and we have SysInfo screen grabs.
I've visited the NatAmi set several times and the only real updates I see are to the site graphics. Quite honestly, I have no idea what the current specs are, how far along the board is, who is working on it or what the plan forward is.
No! The problem is you don't look for answers. Post your questions on the actual Natami forum where someone who actually can answer you will.
You also conveniently forget that their is a video of the LX board running OS3.1 and running A500 games back in april or may.
The MX board is the final board.
Go back and look at when the "Minimig with AGA" thread started and where it's at.
Too many people have selective memory around here it seems.
I look for answers, but I don't expect to have to dig for them. If this is a commercial product then they must be using ex-Commodore PR staff.
Too many people don't know what "passage of information" means.
@Piru
I don't see similarities to the Boxer at all. The BoXeR looks like a PC board with an fpga to emulate AGA and a connector for a 68k or PPC cpu. Natami is a re-implimentation of an actual Amiga design with bottlenecks removed and enhancements made where they can be.
@PiruQuite obviously I was not talking about technical similarities. What is remarkably similar is the drag generated by the feature creep.
I don't see similarities to the Boxer at all. The BoXeR looks like a PC board with an fpga to emulate AGA and a connector for a 68k or PPC cpu. Natami is a re-implimentation of an actual Amiga design with bottlenecks removed and enhancements made where they can be.
Quite obviously I was not talking about technical similarities. What is remarkably similar is the drag generated by the feature creep.
Right now I'm counting about 6 months to add ethernet, USB...which were previously to be optionally supported via PCI...and more memory. These are the final features from a physical standpoint, everything else is done inside a fpga and "features" can/will be added as implemented.Assuming there are no bugs in the ever more complicated HW.
For reference, the "MiniMig with AGA" thread will be 2 years old this coming January. Please don't knock one while praising the other. There were times when a whole month or two went by without an update from MikeJ. His board has also been in development a long time but only "discovered" by this community within the last 2 years.
The goals of creating an "A5000+"-caliber machine are far more complex than simply emulating an A500 with an '0X0 accelerator.
I don't see the situation as having a problem of feature creep but simply the reality of accepting what features a new PC must have to be usable out of the box. Ethernet and USB are standard on any PC, why not on a new Amiga...?
They are for different markets for sure.
The Replay (fpgaarcade) board will have a connector for standard arcade controllers (JAMMA or is it JAMBA) and is not specifically for the Amiga market. It can be a slightly souped up Amiga for sure but it's performance is below the goals of NATAMI.
Natami is designed to be an Amiga PC. It will have a PCI slot(s) and a cpu slot, ethernet and USB and 256MB or ram or more. I can't recall if it will have SATA or PATA IDE.
here is a quote from Thomas the designer:
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=6¬e=28597&z=Xyqlpy
I'd much rather have ethernet and USB onboard rather than have to waste 2 PCI slots for them.
This is a positive delay.
Assuming there are no bugs in the ever more complicated HW. I don't see much feature creep dragging his project.
Especially when your goal posts keep moving constantly.
Lack of resources. For instance USB support adds insane amount of extra work. Why? Just because you don't want to use PS/2 like the other projects?
@Darrin
Specs like "a PCI slot(s)" don't build much confidence in the idea that they are anywhere near completion or that even the specs are agreed upon, so they had to stick an optional plural in, just in case....
Lack of resources. For instance USB support adds insane amount of extra work. Why? Just because you don't want to use PS/2 like the other projects?
How much effort is adding a PCI USB controller to a board when you've already designed the PCI bus interface? The same goes for ethernet. It's hardly "insane" in my opinion.
And Natami without USB would be a strange beast given that it's meant to be a more up to date classic Amiga, and USB stacks exist for the Amiga already, and most peripherals are USB connected?
I think that the Natami people have realised about feature creep, although they did get carried away in the past with things like that 3D core. They cut back the 68070 initial plans to the 68050 too, which shows the ability to cut back to more attainable targets.
And bugs? It's an FPGA, they can get these sorted out down the line when they turn up. As long as the first release can run Aros 68k, AmigaOS 3.x, DPaint and many (if not all) AGA games and OCS/ECS games that great.
Sure I read somewhere that it would probably cost about the same as a SAM
Come on guys stop being so negative... you sound like my parents before they got a divorce...
Well whadya want...these projects are hard enough to get off the ground to begin with. I'm amazed we have MiniMIG and new Turbocards from Jens. Be thankfull for what we have.
No. Too many people think passage of information is a requirement every 5 minutes.
You don't hear about a new iPhone being released until it's already in production.
Natami MX is not in production. That seems to be all you really want to hear.
How much effort is adding a PCI USB controller to a board when you've already designed the PCI bus interface? The same goes for ethernet.Lets see: Total relayout, adding two layers to the board. Quite an effort if you ask me.
And Natami without USB would be a strange beast given that it's meant to be a more up to date classic Amiga, and USB stacks exist for the Amiga already, and most peripherals are USB connected?Surely it would make more sense to use a PCI USB card.
And bugs? It's an FPGANot everything is FPGA on these boards. It's more than easy to add bugs to the board that are not fixable via FPGA patches.
@Darrin
The reasons the LX board never went to market are as follows:
- The Altera Cyclone III FPGA was too small to hold all of the cores.
- The dual-bus architecture wasn't saturating more than half of the bandwidth of the DDR2 memories.
- The I/O pins could be put to better use with a single memory bus, making the whole thing smaller and cheaper.
The main deal-breaker for the LX board was that the 68050 is a larger core than the LX could hold with all of the rest of the features added to the SuperAGA core.
The MX board design has all of these things corrected and more. The Cyclone IV chip has nearly twice the capacity of the earlier Cyclone III.
Not much effort, but the designer said he removed 1 PCI and added USB/Ethernet option onboard.
Seems like I didn't miss the "holy wars" after all, some points of view expressed on this site are very strange indeed, I could jump in here and start dissing the MiniMig but where's the point in that just cos it's not my personal choice, so why do you diss the Natami... :(
Dunno what age half of you are but you obviously weren't around when the Amiga was at it's peak and folk held user groups where you met up with real Amiga users, we didn't diss each other because one person liked one bit of Amiga hardware and the others didn't...
Seem's to me like there's a hell of a lot of Windoze and PC users here who'd be better buggering off back to their PC's and let real Amiga enthusiasts enjoy themselves in peace... :)
Well back then we had plenty of Atari ST owners to dis.
We only had one in these parts and he spent most of his time at our group meetings, but we never dissed him, reckon we just felt sorry for the poor little chap... :)
Exactly.
@ Franko
I think you will find that most people on this site are more than old enough to not only remeber the Amigas Hay day, but to have been using the machines at this time. :)
I don't see much feature creep dragging his project.
Especially when your goal posts keep moving constantly.
Lack of resources. For instance USB support adds insane amount of extra work. Why? Just because you don't want to use PS/2 like the other projects?
the only things moving is what's in the fpgaSo what was this change where USB and ethernet was added on the board?
Perhaps you are a masochist and prefer the 2nd option, but I'll take the 1st - thanks! ;-)Ah, so who's writing the driver for this USB chip? And ethernet SANA2 driver? Or are these yet another items that will happily get ignored on the software side of the project?
So what was this change where USB and ethernet was added on the board?
Ah, so who's writing the driver for this USB chip? And ethernet SANA2 driver? Or are these yet another items that will happily get ignored on the software side of the project?
The LX board was made not to be sold but to prove that the MX board could be built. In that time it was decided having ethernet and USB on the production board would be a big positive. Why is this so hard to comprehend?
I am not on the team, perhaps you should direct your questions to a team member on the project's forum instead of speculating none shall exist - if you are indeed truley curious. The plan is to release a fully functional PC. To think less is to spread FUD.
So let's be clear, just because the board is developed and produced doesn't mean it will be for sale until a working Amiga OS(and/or AROS 68k) installation is running on it. It also helps to have hardware in hand when writing drivers, no?
It also helps to have hardware in hand when writing drivers, no?It is far more helps to have them on PCI card. You can then begin writing the drivers before your HW is even ready.
Why would anyone want essential features like USB and ethernet relegated to a PCI card?
Not only would it create a nightmare scenario for compatibility, but it would severely limit the options for different form factors.
just put up or shut up and ship out !!
I wish someone for once would make something they promised, sell at a price the promised, stop moving the goalposts and stop j&rkin off at the expense of the amiga community, just put up or shut up and ship out !! said my piece.
Why would anyone want essential features like USB and ethernet relegated to a PCI card?
Not only would it create a nightmare scenario for compatibility, but it would severely limit the options for different form factors.
Ah, so who's writing the driver for this USB chip? And ethernet SANA2 driver?
No one has suggested Thomas won't make good on the promises, but to claim that the targets haven't changed isn't fair.
I would have prefered the 68060 board that was announced be considered for the final production.The 68070/68050 development time has undoutedly slowed the introduction.
I also don't remember a statement being made about the board only being offered as a whole system.
I think Piru and myself are more accustomed to working in environments where there are deadlines and cost/benefit ratios.
Those devices on PCI vs. onboard wouldn't justify a redesign and massive delay in my working world.
A good shipping product is far better than perfect vaporware. There is always a next version to add more features to if you handle the first one right.
Tinkering forever is exactly what seemed to have happened to the Boxer and gave the community nothing but dashed hopes, hence the analogy.
I've got nothing against Natami, I just hope they are professional enough to see the product through to completion rather than tinker for ten years with nothing to show for it. (closed source prototypes = nothing to show for it IMHO)
This will bring the MiniMig up to parity with any hardware that Commodore released.Sure, except for compatibility, which has always been a bit spotty since it is not a cycle exact replica of the original CPU and custom logic.
In what way would it create any issues for compatibility? You pick the card you want to support, and you just don't support anything else. I don't understand why the fact that you COULD support different cards would in any way make you feel like you MUST.Why would you want to depend on a third party card that could disappear from the market at any time and leave you in the lurch? There's almost no market for PCI USB cards to begin with, so what makes you think they'll even be produced in the future?
While it might limit options for different form factors, the reality is that there just are not that many different options. The most obvious is the standard PC itx case. Anything else would pretty much require a second run of modified boards anyway, and at that point, you could always build the PCI interface and network/USB directly on the board. So, again, where is the problem with the initial run having the parts on PCI?Use your imagination! There are endless options for a single board solution. Why not get it right the first time and produce an elegant design that can be refined in the future rather than reinvented?
I would like to point you to the MiniMig, WinUAE, MorphOS, AROS, AmigaOS4, the slew of products from Individual Computers (although they have had a few bombs), the iMica, etc., etc., etc..
The Amiga landscape was really ugly for a long time, but the last few years have been a consistent stream of exciting new products actually released, and it keeps getting better every day.
The biggest challenge I see for NatAmi at this point is finishing the project, and getting it out there before the MiniMig line surpasses it. With the first generation of the MiniMig platform released, and in wide use, we are now weeks away from having the second generation of MiniMig released in the form of the Replay boards. This will bring the MiniMig up to parity with any hardware that Commodore released.
While NatAmi aims to be better than what Commodore released, they do need to get it finished soon, as we don't know what level the Replay boards will achieve when they hit the wild, and no doubt there will eventually be someone that moves forward with a third generation of MiniMigs that will surpass the NatAmi target.
- NATAMI is DDR2 in burst mode 100% of the time with a larger and faster fpga, 100x blitter speed,
100MHz 060 minimum,
room for extra chips/cores to add 3D processing; overall system power between a PS1 and a PS2...itching closer to PS2.
Natami is being developed with the future in mind, not a simple emulation of the past.
Hahahahaha. Good luck sourcing many of those at anything like a reasonable cost. Hell you could probably buy an ARM A8 and emulate 68k faster for significantly less.
It's close source because it's going to be a commercial product. I don't recall too many commercial companies just giving away all their technology.
I think we are lucky to see the development of the C1+030 board to the LX+060 boards to the MX.
They've shown what they've shown to simply prove they are not vapor.
They have collected no money. They owe no one anything.
When the product is done - judge it with your wallet.
However, if you or anyone else is so inclined, perhaps I should to join the team and start printing T-shirts... $50 each ofcourse! :D
I hope you're going to back this and the rest of your figures with some benchmarks, right? Because as it stands this is purely theoretical. And of course this hangs on the presumption that the emulation is up to snuff.
And no "my friend the developer close to the project" doesn't count as evidence.
Hahahahaha. Good luck sourcing many of those at anything like a reasonable cost. Hell you could probably buy an ARM A8 and emulate 68k faster for significantly less.
Citation needed.
You are Theirry and I claim my 5 pounds.
Actually the '060 card is 99 MHz. It's the N68050 softcore that is in the 100+ MHz range. With opcode fusion any pair of opcodes that can be simplified into a 3 operand instruction will be fused as one opcode internally. This means that the '050 will compete well per clock vs. an '060. (Note: Since the LX board's FPGA was too small to hold both the '050 core and SuperAGA, the MX board prototype will have to be produced before the profiling and testing of the '050 core will be complete.)
Remember that the team gets to buy their systems first for testing purposes. By the time you can buy the production model, the '050 softcore may be already running 100% performance and the team will be working on the N68070 to be superscalar on top of that.
BTW, if you try to run UAE on an ARM Cortex A8 (such as the Pandora), you'll see that it typically trips over itself and delivers roughly stock A1200 performance.
For the fastest '060 read the clock speed of this and weep:http://www.natami.net/gfx/NAe60F/NAe60F_1.jpg
and just think... Jens was working on one of these FPGA projects too in his clone A... could it be that the 030 CPU cards, Indivisions, and such are all pieces of a greater puzzle...?
Precursors to the holy grail of Amiga KIT... a cycle exact Amiga clone.
I hope so...
Sure, except for compatibility, which has always been a bit spotty since it is not a cycle exact replica of the original CPU and custom logic.
Remember that the team gets to buy their systems first for testing purposes. By the time you can buy the production model, the '050 softcore may be already running 100% performance and the team will be working on the N68070 to be superscalar on top of that.
BTW, if you try to run UAE on an ARM Cortex A8 (such as the Pandora), you'll see that it typically trips over itself and delivers roughly stock A1200 performance.
For the fastest '060 read the clock speed of this and weep:http://www.natami.net/gfx/NAe60F/NAe60F_1.jpg
It's simple math. with a 3.67Mhz clock and 16 bit bus, how fast does a real Amiga move RAM? Now figure the speed of DDR2 which in burst moves what 8 bytes at once and there is cache to throttle it as well. Infact, for A500 games compatibility there will be a 3.67Mhz mode...
No one claimed '060's were cheap nor that NATAMI will be cheap. Read the faq
http://www.natami.net/qa.htm
If I was in on the bet, you'd owe me money...
A does a 100Mhz 060 real = 100Mhz PPC (Assuming they mean G3 here)
And will a 100mhz 060 be able to decode divx/xvid/dvd ????
I am just wondering if this fpgaarcade/Minimig AGA device is going to drive the Natami to its knees and leave it in agony?
Does not require a real 68k in its design
On the other hand the Natami:
Is closed source
Cost is near 700-1000 US$
Hasnt got implemented the so called new features yet
@thread
What is this cycle exact rubbish I keep reading. There IS NO SUCH THING.
All Commodore Amigas A1000, A1200, A600, A4000 etc are never cycle exact to each other - they technically cannot be because they all run at different speeds !
The are compatible but never CYCLE EXACT - ask any engineer.
@threadYou're weird...
What is this cycle exact rubbish I keep reading. There IS NO SUCH THING.
All Commodore Amigas A1000, A1200, A600, A4000 etc are never cycle exact to each other - they technically cannot be because they all run at different speeds !
The are compatible but never CYCLE EXACT - ask any engineer.
@the_leander
Can you prove to me the sun will rise tomorrow?
Mathematically, if all goes to plan it will. However, it could go super nova over night...
Seriously, stop being ignorant.
But oh yeah, you can't buy the LX board sois vapor.
>The PPC on average has a slightly lower code density
It's a joke from you ??
Watch this : http://library.morphzone.org/An_Introduction_to_MorphOS_PPC_Assembly
Unless he meant "slightly" was a joke.Very good point, he is probably unaware of our British sense of understatement :)
In reality, most object code I've compiled for ppc and 68K shows between a 30-70% size increase in the PPC version. It varies a great deal. In some extreme cases, I've seen object code that's more than twice the size.
Strawman.
I ask you (repeatedly) for evidence to back up your assertions and you utterly refuse to supply them, then you accuse me of ignorance? GTFO!
Until it is released, all your claims are just that - claims.
SamuraiCrow at least had the good sense to coach much of his response as something he hoped for rather than fact.
Fixed.
Yes. Given the history of this community and all the hardware that never moved beyond prototyping (or even got that far). This is the only reasonable position to take.
The developer has announce boards are almost ready for production.
I remember that boards were initially planned to be released summer 2008. What does this "almost ready" mean this time?
Which is why I say that the biggest challenge for Natami is to get released before it becomes irrelevant.
@Belial6
Your perception is correct. We intend to sell it and keep the source closed
Before I go on, you do realize that "blitting" is basically just moving memory, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_blit
Now what is the memory transfer rate of an unexpanded Amiga 500? Let's see if you know how to do your homework?
however your thought process seems broken.
The developer has announce boards are almost ready for production.
It sad that someone make a statement on this forum. Someone else is then in disbelief and demands proof despite have no basis for such a demand nor even has a right to make any demands what so ever.
Wouldn't it be simpler to come up with evidence to the contrary on your own rather than troll out demands that carry no weight other than in your own little black book?
First off, as a member of the Natami team it would be unprofessional of me to allow hopes to get excessively high. Without a prototype to test on we can't do much profiling.
Secondly, we can test the VHDL code with a simulator so it looks like the N68050 is right on track to be clocked at 133 MHz and to be able to combine instruction sequences internally for one instruction cycle-per-clock execution for most instructions.
Also, I've mentioned in a previous post that the Natami LX was a prototype and had some performance lapses in it preventing it from going to market.
What sort of compatibility are you looking at? (on par with an 040, for instance)
Can I ask what sorts of issues cropped up?
Your perception is correct. We intend to sell it and keep the source closed.
The problem with the Replay is that it uses a smaller FPGA and therefore won't get the performance of the N68050 or the extension of it, the N68070. The CPU softcore used by the Replay MiniMig core hardly has any cache at all.
Natami is designed for efficient use of a medium-sized FPGA. It will have a bigger cache on the CPU core and the ability to combine opcodes such that certain combinations of two opcodes will execute in one clock cycle.
Stay tuned.
030 compatibility is no bad thing, especially if you are interested in backwards compatibility.
The hardware-banging functions of the Natami should be well documented by the time of release so updating drivers from the AROS 68k sources should be a simple matter. At first we'll be using AfaOS though.
How much 680x0 software is there that won't be compatible with the 030? In my area, the release of the A600/AOS 2.0, with it's massive incompatibility with the A500 was the last nail in the coffin for the Amiga. We never even saw A1200's in these parts.
If the 040/060 were just optimizations, and did not add new opcodes, or if the new opcodes were rarely or never used, then anything past the 030 computability would just be an interesting sidenote.
I guess the other question is, are their opcodes in the 68000 that the 68060 cannot run?
Cheers for the update.
Is there any chance that someone could do something with the NatAmi website and update that to show the current status?
The natami is a hardware emulation of the amiga architecture? Does this mean it is not a "real" amiga?Depends on where you stand on the great "what makes an Amiga an Amiga" argument. Is it the architecture? The actual, physical hardware? The brand? The OS? Or some kind of intangible spirit thing? It seems like everybody has a different answer.
And before you continue, you do realise that unless you back up your claims with evidence, they will viewed with suspicion by anyone else, right?
I don't give a crap about the A500's memory transfer rate. I am asking yet again for you to back up your specific claims regarding the Natami.
Can you show that the blitter is capable of anything like the 100x increase you claimed earlier? (Hell even being able to show it works at all would be a start).
Expecting proof for technical claims = broken thought process. Only Amiga makes it possible.
On schedule and rocking eh?
So no one has the right to challenge your claims? Epic!
It is not my job to disprove your claims, it is yours to back them up with evidence. Only a fundie or someone with a similar level of intellectual dishonesty would claim otherwise.
Then again I am talking to gamecube boy, so I shouldn't really expect anything better.
The natami is a hardware emulation of the amiga architecture? Does this mean it is not a "real" amiga?
The natami is a hardware emulation of the amiga architecture? Does this mean it is not a "real" amiga?
It shouldn't be too long now... ;-)
Also, the use of AfaOS may be a stale statement but since the AROS Kickstart Replacement Bounty Phase 2 requires some changes in the AROS kernal, it seems likely that we'll have to wait a bit for a free OS to run on the Natami.
Depends on where you stand on the great "what makes an Amiga an Amiga" argument. Is it the architecture? The actual, physical hardware? The brand? The OS? Or some kind of intangible spirit thing? It seems like everybody has a different answer.
Personally, I'm beholden to the elegant hardware and software architecture of the original OCS/ECS machines, which NatAmi seems to be aiming to replicate/beef up, so it's right up my alley :) But I suppose if you don't consider an FPGA implementation to be a "real" machine, this isn't going to do it for you.
Thanks, I want an updated amiga and I don't know much about the FPGA boards but I was under the impression they were "programmed" to behave like other hardware. That's why I thought it was basically emulation, which made me think I might be better saving some money and getting an Imica from Clusteruk. Many have said this is where the future of the Amiga lies.It is a bit harsh for people to shoot you down about this! An FPGA Amiga is still an emulation of the original hardware, even though it is not the step by step processor based emulation of something like UAE.
It is a bit harsh for people to shoot you down about this! An FPGA Amiga is still an emulation of the original hardware, even though it is not the step by step processor based emulation of something like UAE.
The FPGA I programmed using a language not unlike a normal computer pogramming language, the real difference is that the language is used by the FPGA software to build a logic map of the operation which is then "executed" by small programmable units in the hardware (often little more than logic units, but can have advanced features like adders and memory). The FPGA must be programmed every power on.
I wouldn't mind playing with an FPGA board (like mikej's Replay) to build my own CPU... :)
In my area
You continue to troll.
You failed algebra. The potential is closer to 400x the speed of an A500 blitter but for other reasons that will only end up in the 100x-200x range. 100x is a conservative #.
You failed reading comprehension as well.
Yep. 2 more weeks infact... /lame
You could challenge them if you had facts but you don't even know the first thing about blitting and memory access speeds. No one else is disputing the possibility that this is possible. Stop and think: what do you know that they don't? No really - stop thinking, you'll just run yourself in an endless loop looking for the answer.
If you want to call me a liar, then come back with facts instead of challenges. I gave you facts and you come back with more trollish remarks.
Rogue on AW.net said they OS4 could run on the Wii. You, sir, lack much upstairs...
No you are correct no one knows anyhting about blitting apart from you. You don't get it do you, without any proof or benchmarks to back this up all your claims are just that claims and theoritical.
Yes OS4 might possibly run a Wii but god it would be an awful experience. Im guessing, guessing mind, don't know, but did rouge say that just to shut you up on your GC/Wii os4 trolling ?
I really wouldnt want to run any NG AmigaOS on 88Mb of ram. How usless would that be ?
You must be in Nirvana now if ignorance is bliss.
great assumption AOS4 is baed on an OS that ran on 512k, hence 88Mb is loads....wft ?
I linked what blitting was, it's just copying memory, occassionaly with a mask. Hence your limiting factor is :shock: :horror: how fast you can move memory.
So potentially, Natami can move memory something like 438 times faster an an A500.
Even a direct port would only bump it up to 1MB of PPC code. Infact, how much ram are on the classic Amiga's with PPC accelerator? 64MB?
Nobody is saying it couldn't run on the Wii.
They're wondering what the point is!
Firstly, this is completely off-topic to this thread.
Second, why not use a PS3 or XBox360 instead - more memory, both jailbroken. Supports higher resolutions than ~800x480.
Thirdly, who is going to fund such a port of the OS to jailbroken hardware? Who is going to take the legal liability when Nintendo Sony or Microsoft say that the software is encouraging piracy, jailbreaking and other bad things, and drags you through the courts at great expense? At least Sony did support it in the past, so that's a lower risk.
There's more to amiga blitting than just moving data, even with a mask. The amiga's blitter could combine up to 3 sources using a user-specific boolean function and write the result to a destination. IIRC, the any combination source(s) and destination could be the same. As such, it's fair to say there's rather more sophistication in there than your typical graphic's card blitter which tend to be optimized memory copy units only.
There's more to amiga blitting than just moving data, even with a mask. The amiga's blitter could combine up to 3 sources using a user-specific boolean function and write the result to a separate destination. IIRC, the any combination source(s) and destination could be the same. As such, it's fair to say there's rather more sophistication in there than your typical graphics card blitter, which tend to be optimized memory copy units only.
Mine has 256MB. By now, most BlizzardPPC/CyberstormPPC users have fitted as much RAM as they can on their boards.
As will the Natami blitter. Hence the limiting factor is: how fast you can move memory.
Kudos to you. What was the minimum required when OS4 for Classic was released?
Heck, the fact that the new product, 128MB ZoRAM, is being supported now shows me that many barely had 64MB...which is my point about OS4+Wii. But, again, OT, just defending myself from the ignorant people(s).
How the blitter works isn't in question, it's not a mystery, Minimig has an equivalent blitter and that was years ago. It's not hard to see that creating a full 32-bit blitter that runs a lot faster would end up being significantly more impressive than the ~4MHz blitter in an Amiga. Even if it only ran at ~40MHz in the FPGA it could blit 20x faster (memory bandwidth allowing, lou's point is that the memory bandwidth is not going to be an issue here). Only the Natami people can say how fast the Natami blitter is going to operate, but if they can run their 68050 core at 133MHz, then maybe they can run their blitter implementation at a similar speed...
Well, less than 256MB, that's for sure. In fact, 4.1 ran fine on my A1 in 128MB. However, the moment you start a remotely modern browser, that will quickly vanish.
^The point, however, is that the minimum requirements to run the OS, should not be viewed as the minimum requirements to do something useful with it.
Only the Natami people can say how fast the Natami blitter is going to operate, but if they can run their 68050 core at 133MHz, then maybe they can run their blitter implementation at a similar speed...I'd think if anything, the blitter would be able to run faster, as it's quite a bit simpler a circuit than a CPU on the 68k model. Still, only they can say for sure.
OT: People like to poop on the Wii but it is my primary Netflix streamer/viewer and it does so in full DVD quality.
I'd think if anything, the blitter would be able to run faster, as it's quite a bit simpler a circuit than a CPU on the 68k model. Still, only they can say for sure.
Well, that's more a fault of the architecture the browser was ported from.
Opera runs fine on the Wii natively.
As does Aweb on the Amiga. It also depends on whether your cache is on Ramdisk or HDD...
Christ My classic has got more ram than that with 128mb and yes that has not been enough when wanting to run some games etc.
Wow... what game on a classic need's 128Mb, I'd love to see that one... :)
Wow... what game on a classic need's 128Mb, I'd love to see that one... :)
Opera on the Wii is enough for YouTube, although the on-screen keyboard is a PITA (but that's down to the Wii, and you can plug in a keyboard). It's the same on the PS3, the browser is just a PITA, it's not the technology, it's the console UI.
Settlers on a planet-sized map?
Some versions of quake needish 128mb ram. There are other games but memory not brillaint.
I'd think if anything, the blitter would be able to run faster, as it's quite a bit simpler a circuit than a CPU on the 68k model. Still, only they can say for sure.
This is a good point. Anyone from Natami care to comment?
You continue to troll.
You failed algebra. The potential is closer to 400x the speed of an A500 blitter but for other reasons that will only end up in the 100x-200x range. 100x is a conservative #.
You could challenge them if you had facts but you don't even know the first thing about blitting and memory access speeds.
Ad hom
If you want to call me a liar,
then come back with facts instead of challenges.
I gave you facts
Rogue on AW.net said they OS4 could run on the Wii. You, sir, lack much upstairs...
Citation needed muppet.
Your posts in this thread have been abrasive already, but now you're just being rude and obnoxious.
I hope a mod bans you for a while to teach you a lesson.
The point you keep failing to take on board is that doing a straight calculation only works if you're talking about the two blitters being functionally identical and no different in terms of how they do their job.
The moment you start throwing in buffers, 32bit blitting etc. All bets are off.
This is of course assuming that the blitter on the natami actually works as advertised and doesn't have some hitherto unknown bug etc.
(rudeness removed) Without benchmarks on real (or as real as an fpga powered platform can be) hardware, you cannot prove your case.
As another in the thread said - what you're doing is speculating. Only you're claiming it as "fact", which is dishonest.
I can challenge anyone's claims at any time as can anyone else on this public forum. Those who actively refuse to provide evidence and are, time and again spanked for talking rubbish.
Ah, run out of arguments so you attack the person asking you for proof.
Coming from you, that means absolutely nothing, mr gamecube. You were running around the forums talking about porting to the gamecube first, later the wii, without even the slightest thought as to how wise a choice that would be. As JJ said, rouge said it to get you to shut up.
I think I get it. You don't care what Lou is saying, you just want Lou to shut up because he is Lou. That's very personal. Why are you dredging up something that apparently is YEARS OLD? I guess you have a personal vendetta. Take it away from this forum please.
Gentlemen, a spot of calm if you please.
Until I have a working NatAmi in my grubby paws, as far as I am concerned it's all speculative. On that point, a modern implementation of the hardware, if it lives up to the promise of being able to utilise the full DDR2 memory bandwidth would seem to qualify as much, much faster than the original. However, that's as much as can be said. Putting numbers on it at the moment, no matter how educated a guess, remains a guess.
His point is very clear, and is based upon simple assumptions:
Ah, the FPGA isn't hardware argument. Sheesh.
At least he has made an effort to back up his claims.
You can argue like an adult, or just call people names. You call people names. Grow up.
I think I get it. You don't care what Lou is saying
Karlos be careful, how dare you say its just a guess, its just moving memory. Did you fail maths in school etc etc :)
Which he claims as fact. Do try to keep up.
My problem isn't with the assumption as such (though given the proposed updates in the rest of the enhanced AGA being proposed by the Natami team I think a simple maths equation just won't cut it), but with the fact that he states it as fact and then gets angry when asked to provide evidence.
All I did was ask for evidence "Citation needed". Apparently these days that's abrasive, rude and obnoxious. Fair enough.
Still failing. Read above.
My reason for "dredging up" the past was to point out that far from some pedestal occupying god, to be gazed at in wonder but not to be questioned that he'd apparently like to be treated as. He is in fact only a hair's breadth from being Atheist2. Honestly I don't know or really care about him, in fact the word "muppet" pretty much sums up my feelings toward him in their totality.
Who made you a mod ?
It is interesting to note that you jumped on Lou's 100MHz 68060 comment very quickly, and that in the next comment SamuraiCrow said that it was actually a 99MHz 68060, but that the 68050 core would be over 100MHz.
He tried to show you why he thought that, basically faster FPGA than FPGAArcade, a faster memory bus, etc.
So he had some fancy ideas in the past that might have been based entirely upon the Gamecube/Wii having a PowerPC processor.
Instead of responding to him if you hold him in low regard, why not just ignore him? Or accept that some people might have less technical knowledge, and that their desire is to have a friendly discussion in an online forum in a similar way to having a friendly chat down the pub. It's meant to be fun. He's not advocating genocide for MorphOS users or something! It's been pointed out loads of time in this thread that we'll find out in due course what NatAmi is like, we're all working from what has been written on the NatAmi website, said in the NatAmi forums and said by NatAmi members here and elsewhere.
As for me, a 100x faster blitter sounds great, but I won't cry if it's only 50x faster in the end due to the FPGA, the design, the memory speed or the weather in Iceland on that day. The same goes for the 68050 design they're working on. I wish them the best of luck but we'll see if it will clock at 133MHz, or 66MHz. If they know it will, they could throw us a tidbit of information now, but until then we're taking their word for it in order to have a fun chat about this project.
You have an attitude problem.
You showed it in your early responses to lou's post - e.g., "I'd owe you sweet FA chum." -
a very aggressive phrasing in English, it's effectively one step before someone glasses someone in the face in a pub.
When someone writes "100x faster blitter" they're not being 100% pedantically accurate.
It is interesting to note that you jumped on Lou's 100MHz 68060 comment very quickly, and that in the next comment SamuraiCrow said that it was actually a 99MHz 68060, but that the 68050 core would be over 100MHz.
So he had some fancy ideas in the past that might have been based entirely upon the Gamecube/Wii having a PowerPC processor.
As for me, a 100x faster blitter sounds great, but I won't cry if it's only 50x faster in the end due to the FPGA,
If there's one thing I've learned when doing low level work with real hardware, there's the theoretical speed of which the hardware is capable and the actual speed that is attained in the real world with applications that test it. The interface between software and hardware is often a murky place.User
|
Application
|
OS Graphics API
|
Driver
|
Hardware
Remember, to use the blitter in an OS friendly manner, you have to wait for it, own it, set it up to do your operation, disown it etc. etc. All of those steps take time, which is more or less independent of how fast the blitter itself can do the operation you've asked.
Will you see a 100x speed up in a real world application? It all depends. If the setup cost is small, maybe you'll experience more than that. OTOH, if there are many small blits going on frequently, then the setup latency may dominate and you'll observe a lot less.
Other people, **cough**the_leander**cough**, just aren't too bright.
And instead of saying anything like you're implying, he went off on one about it being pure maths to prove his case that what he said was in fact, a fact. One which if I didn't agree to, would mean I was subnormal.
Theorectical maximums are the only thing worth comparing because all the inefficiencies you mention also apply to the old hardware. Just by adding buffers, yarube has made the TG68 core run like an '040...yet I'm not allowed to cite that as co-oberating evidence? Natami bus is about 4x faster than MikeJ's board directly due to DDR2 vs. DDR1. It's fpga is also superior. These are facts.
One of the factors that helps make full '020's, '030's etc... faster is cache. The '050 core is getting, iirc, 32k of data and instruction cache. This is also what yarube did to the TG68 core. It's not rocket science to people who know what they are doing. Gunnar and Thomas have real world industry experience. I see too many people here belittling their work. It annoys me, especially when some of those people are clearly threatened by the product because they are a developer for an OS who's market could be undermined by it's success. Other people, **cough**the_leander**cough**, just aren't too bright.
Now watch everyone as Hattig overlooks this too.
Remember folks, if you disagree with Lou, you are by his definition, subnormal.
It's another to call someone out without a shred of merit behind it.
You started the insults. Since mods seem to allow it, I'm simply returning the favor.
All my math proved was that I was being consevative. That fact clearly was lost on you as is much I gather. Even Karlos knows what I said is quite possible...yet you still are in denial.
You had no math to counter.
Ad homs
Theorectical maximums are the only thing worth comparing because all the inefficiencies you mention also apply to the old hardware..
Yes, you hate being asked to back up your claims, we get it.
Actually, I think you'll find that you started throwing them around first (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=595536&postcount=200).
But hey, it's not like either you or Hattig bother with little things like facts get in the way of your proving yourselves right.
Not arguing possibilities, all I asked for was for you to provide evidence to back up your specific claims. Claims you have stated are facts.
What's genuinely terrifying is that Karlos has had to spell out to you the difference between theory and fact. Given your responses, I'm not entirely sure that it's a lesson that's sunk in.
I'm still waiting for you to provide the benchmarks showing that the blitter is actually able to do what you claim it can. See Karlos' post for why.
Indeed.
--edit--
I'm done. Karl, you're right. I'll just leave anything with natami in the title in future.
I disagree. Most people buy new hardware on the basis of the real-world benefits they get, not what it's theoretical performance is. You don't see the latest CPU and graphics card round-ups quoting the theoretical performance of the hardware except as an annotation in the write up. All the comparisons are done with real-world applications, since that's what the target audience are most interested in.
By persistently hyping up the as-yet unreleased hardware based on theoretical performance projections of just the silicon, you are creating expectations that the end product might not fully live up to.
When the actual benchmarks of the NatAmi hardware appear that can be compared to real and emulated 68K systems running the same tests, then we can start drawing some meaningful conclusions.
Ahhh the good ol asphyo w**k :)Did you know I am indirectly responsible for Michael Hutchence takin his own life... True story!
And if you look carefully, you'd see that there was a link explaining the meaning behind the "You are X and I claim my £5" from wikipedia.
Context, will you bother to supply any?
Maybe it is considered "aggressive phrasing" amongst the chattering classes, but down here on the front lines it's every day language used as a polite replacement for "Fuck All", the verbal equivalent of putting stars * in place of letters. In short, you're talking nonsense.
It wasn't the FA that I had the issue with. It was the entire phrase, including 'chum', which actually doesn't mean 'friend', 'buddy', 'mate', but is used to make a phrase more unfriendly and aggressive.QuoteAnd instead of saying anything like you're implying, he went off on one about it being pure maths to prove his case that what he said was in fact, a fact. One which if I didn't agree to, would mean I was subnormal.
He tried to explain why it was likely to be the case, due to the more modern technology on NatAmi compared to the original Amiga technology, and relating it to FPGAArcade's attainment level in the same regard. I never saw anything from him stating that is was a solid fact set in concrete.
He would have done better to link to the NatAmi FAQ where it says 100x to 200x faster blitter directly, and then let the NatAmi developers back up their claims.
As for bugs in the chipset that were mentioned a lot, surely the NatAmi LX video from earlier this year should alleviate many such concerns?
Other people, **cough**the_leander**cough**, just aren't too bright.
including 'chum', which actually doesn't mean 'friend', 'buddy', 'mate', but is used to make a phrase more unfriendly and aggressive.
chum: n. An intimate friend or companion.
Well, that's news to a lot of us: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/chum
You better contact them quick and tell them "No, wait... the other thing!"
What if I were to say cock socket ?
I have not been keeping up with the Natami's progress and did not even know that Jens was working on it (is this the same Jens of Individual Computers that I am thinking of, or another Jens?).
My question is :
Futher down the track when FPGA prices drop will there be a chance to use a ARRIA II or Stratix V as the softcore or would a total redesign be necessary? and what estimated clock speeds could the N050 or N070 be running at ?
Gunnar has already tested some of the functionality on higher-end FPGAs. The VHDL doesn't require changing and will run faster right out of the box.
I wouldn't be surprised if in two years or so you'll see a new NatAmi 2 design that clocks two to three times as fast and has more room to spare on the FPGA for new functionality.
Also, the 133 MHz figure is for the N68050 on the Cyclone IV. The actual clock speed of the FPGA will be somewhat faster to allow better performance for the graphics cores.
This is not specifically a Natami question, but something I've wondered about FPGA clones in general.That doesn't really make any sense :)
How practical would it be to use any leftover space on the FPGA to create a secondary core that mimics a simpler computer, like say a VIC-20, that could run in tandem with the main Amiga core?
I don't know the answer to that one. The speed of the memory may be fast enough without a clock bump.
If the Amiga's design can accomodate it, would it be possible to add another copy of say the Paula chip, stripped down to just the audio portion, in order to have more audio channels?Last I looked on the NatAmi page, there already was a severely beefed-up audio generator capable of a large number of 16-bit channels.
This is not specifically a Natami question, but something I've wondered about FPGA clones in general.
How practical would it be to use any leftover space on the FPGA to create a secondary core that mimics a simpler computer, like say a VIC-20, that could run in tandem with the main Amiga core?
Hi,
I am really excited about the Natami, (yawn). How about upgrading the processor to something a small bit newer like a AMD 6 core cpu (1090t, 1055t or the 1075t) , why are we futzin around with something Motorolla gave up on a long time ago. I know why Amiga people aren't happy unless it is out of date junk that they can spend lots of money on upgrading for bragging rights.
Even apple had more common sense than to stick with a dead cpu.
Will someone please explain to me why?
I seem to be a little nieve in this area.
smerf
Hi,
I am really excited about the Natami, (yawn). How about upgrading the processor to something a small bit newer like a AMD 6 core cpu (1090t, 1055t or the 1075t) , why are we futzin around with something Motorolla gave up on a long time ago. I know why Amiga people aren't happy unless it is out of date junk that they can spend lots of money on upgrading for bragging rights.
Even apple had more common sense than to stick with a dead cpu.
Will someone please explain to me why?
I seem to be a little nieve in this area.
smerf
Hi,
I am really excited about the Natami, (yawn). How about upgrading the processor to something a small bit newer like a AMD 6 core cpu (1090t, 1055t or the 1075t) , why are we futzin around with something Motorolla gave up on a long time ago.
I seem to be a little nieve in this area.
The NatAmi is obviously for people that want a physical machine that is hardware compatible with their old kit, whilst simultaneously being a bit faster and more capable. I see no problem with that.
Hi,
I am really excited about the Natami, (yawn). How about upgrading the processor to something a small bit newer like a AMD 6 core cpu (1090t, 1055t or the 1075t) , why are we futzin around with something Motorolla gave up on a long time ago. I know why Amiga people aren't happy unless it is out of date junk that they can spend lots of money on upgrading for bragging rights.
Even apple had more common sense than to stick with a dead cpu.
Will someone please explain to me why?
I seem to be a little nieve in this area.
smerf
I am really excited about the Natami, (yawn). How about upgrading the processor to something a small bit newer like a AMD 6 core cpu (1090t, 1055t or the 1075t) , why are we futzin around with something Motorolla gave up on a long time ago. I know why Amiga people aren't happy unless it is out of date junk that they can spend lots of money on upgrading for bragging rights.Uh, maybe because that's the architecture that 90% of Amiga software runs natively on? Or that it's a perfect pleasure to program on when it comes to assembler, as compared to x86's "we'll just keep making our four registers even bigger!" approach? Or that every other damn thing is Intel these days except for small-scale ARM devices and PPC game consoles, and a little freakin' variety would be a nice change of pace?
There is AROS for x86. Problem with AROS it's stuck in the 3.1 API crypt and there is no chance of seeing SMP with 3.1. To make AROS SMP, it's going to take a new kernel (no small feat in by itself) and break the API which will break just about all known apps. Doable but your talking a major man power project that will need full time devs and there isn't any money for that type of expense.
I would highly doubt had C= survived we would be even talking about 3.1, they had no such loyalty to old stuff as their move AGA proved.
Perhaps you should go to the actual Natami forum for an update rather than make a baseless remark?
Did you know I am indirectly responsible for Michael Hutchence takin his own life... True story!
Even weirder is that it is indirectly Amiga related!
Already Hyperions is working on adding multi-core support to OS4...
My only criticism of the NatAmi project is that it seems to suffering from feature creep.
Quote from: lou_dias;597035Already Hyperions is working on adding multi-core support to OS4...QUOTE]
Are they ? Have you got a source for this ?
Did you not here of an event called Amiwest?
Lou, I have been on the Natami website (many times in fact). How is my comment baseless? I am still optimistic about the release of Natami, but wish it was completed. Did you find my remark negative in some way?
I would think that many people feel somewhat similiar to my feelings. I would love to own a Natami system.
Hmmm... I don't see the point of adding SMP to AROS until it has actually achieved that real version 1.0.
Did you not here of an event called Amiwest?
Quote from: JJ;597375
Did you not here of an event called Amiwest?
It was also commented on aw.net before amiwest. The message was "yes the x1000 is multicore, no OS4.x won't be till release, but it will come later".
It's no big secret, what is a big secret however is when it'll be released. It's classified at the highest level: "When it's ready".
I guess only wikileaks really knows.
For AROS68K, I completely and fully agree with you. 3.1 should be a priority to be completed.
But for AROS x86/ARM, what good is this going to do? Original concept was for AOS code to do a simple recompile to AROS x86 but that was 15 years ago when AOS apps/games were still relevent. Fast forward it today, tell me what apps/games that have AOS source code available that is so critical for AROS x86/ARM future that it has to be native and not run in seemless emulation? I think it was about 2002 or so when Adam put together the current road map. Lot has changed since then in Amiga land not to mention what technology evolution has taken hold.
If anything, Linuxland is where the code for ports is coming from, not 15-20 year AOS old code that is either lost or will never be released for free. Again, AROS68K, needs 1.0, but x86/ARM versions need to evolve their APIs to match the modern world of high performance multi core CPUs.
Quote from: lou_dias;597388
It was also commented on aw.net before amiwest. The message was "yes the x1000 is multicore, no OS4.x won't be till release, but it will come later".
It's no big secret, what is a big secret however is when it'll be released. It's classified at the highest level: "When it's ready".
I guess only wikileaks really knows.
I believe it was Trevor's presentation where it was formally announced as in-progress. The videos are all available for everyone's viewing pleasure.
But then you have forks...then you can't complile for all supported platforms.
Gunnar has mentioned putting multiple cpu cores on the fpga so there is hope yet the OS will be tweaked to take advantage of it someday. Hopefully those changes make it to AROS. Don't know if it will be AMP or SMP though...
I seem to be a little nieve in this area.
Are they ? Have you got a source for this ?
Could someone explain what benefit there is in SMP over AMP. It has always seem to me that AMP would be a far superior system. AMP allows for the processors to be mismatched in both speed and architecture. That seems like a huge benefit.
Benefit to whom? Most multiprocessing hardware you are likely to see is geared towards SMP. Having identical processor cores, preferably all on the same die, helps simplify everything from hardware cache coherency up to software kernel design.
Benefit to whom? Most multiprocessing hardware you are likely to see is geared towards SMP. Having identical processor cores, preferably all on the same die, helps simplify everything from hardware cache coherency up to software kernel design.
First maybe you can state your source for your earlier comment about Natami costing as much as SAM?
I don't think it was an offical source, was in a thread on here, might have even bee this one. Really can't be arsed to check.
But I would have thought it would cost at least that
Side note:
I think Intel has some new tech that will scale performance of cores based on workload.
For instance, if you are running a single-cored game, it will over-clock 1 core to some insane GHz and shut down the other cores...and vice versa. Sorta a best of both worlds system.
Did some Google searches, surprised to see one of my games, "Warhammer" (or "Wowhammer";-) has multi core support. Once the consoles go multi core, I think that is when you will see the last of the new games coming out without being designed for multi core. Unreal Engine 4 is for the day when we have "massively multi-core processor" according to Epic's Mark Rein.
Anyone remember the days Amiga folks use to rag on Window users for not using a multi tasking OS? My, how times have changed as hardware evolved. I know, just use Linux and be happy it can do the grunt work in a SMP environment.
Did some Google searches, surprised to see one of my games, "Warhammer" (or "Wowhammer";-) has multi core support. Once the consoles go multi core, I think that is when you will see the last of the new games coming out without being designed for multi core. Unreal Engine 4 is for the day when we have "massively multi-core processor" according to Epic's Mark Rein.
Anyone remember the days Amiga folks use to rag on Window users for not using a multi tasking OS? My, how times have changed as hardware evolved. I know, just use Linux and be happy it can do the grunt work in a SMP environment.
One of the non-team members made the claim it would be $800 on the Natami forum.
So... Could that have originated from a team member though?
I thought both the 360 and PS3 were multi-core ?
Are they? I'm so confused when the tri cores are PPEs which control SPEs? Not what I would consider general purpose CPU cores, but I may be out on left field on that issue. Mark Rein didn't know if the next generation consoles could handle Unreal 4.
Guess it boils down if NatAmi will ever need a SMP OS or not. At this stage of the game, it doesn't need one.
Yeah I know when it comes to the PS3 is a quesion of debate about cores. But the 360 is 100% multicore
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_hardware
Next step is the 68070
I don't think NatAmi will need an SMP aware OS for a while. First step is the 68050. Next step is the 68070. After that maybe they will want to add in SMP capability to the core - but that's surely several years and a hardware revision away?
basically the 360 has 3 of the cpu's that sony paid ibm to develop
I didn't realize people were still spreading this myth. Aside from sharing some banal power saving tricks, the Xenon is no more similar to the Cell than any other modern PPC chip.
Are they? I'm so confused when the tri cores are PPEs which control SPEs? Not what I would consider general purpose CPU cores, but I may be out on left field on that issue. Mark Rein didn't know if the next generation consoles could handle Unreal 4.
Guess it boils down if NatAmi will ever need a SMP OS or not. At this stage of the game, it doesn't need one.
I'd say in some ways the Cell is more "multi-core" than other CPUs. Those SPEs run autonomously to each other. The only real interaction between them is explicit DMA between memory.
As I see it, that makes it less "multi-core" and more "multi-processor".
Could you stop posting your opinion and consider providing facts?
Xenon is very much an enhanced tri-core Cell PPE derivative.
And since both the Cell and the Xenon are in order processors, their actual performance per cycle is a little lower than many other PPC cores.
Multi-core or multiprocessor? Well, as I see it, if its on the same die its a single processor. Otherwise, where do you draw the line? Math co-processors used to be off die, and even then they were only considered co-processors. That may all the SPE should be considered.
Very well said.
Could you stop posting your opinion and consider providing facts?
Xenon is very much an enhanced tri-core Cell PPE derivative.
And since both the Cell and the Xenon are in order processors, their actual performance per cycle is a little lower than many other PPC cores.
Multi-core or multiprocessor? Well, as I see it, if its on the same die its a single processor. Otherwise, where do you draw the line? Math co-processors used to be off die, and even then they were only considered co-processors. That may all the SPE should be considered.
I'd say in some ways the Cell is more "multi-core" than other CPUs. Those SPEs run autonomously to each other. The only real interaction between them is explicit DMA between memory. Other than that, those CPUs can do pretty much any kind of computation other CPUs can, except they are pretty short on local memory.
In order to leverage all those Cell SPEs you have to design your software architecture and code REALLY well (e.g. tasks/jobs instead of the traditionally used threads). A byproduct of this is that the task/job code you design for this is usually easier to scale up to hundreds of cores as compared to a threaded model.
Once you have code that will run on Cell, it is relatively easy to port it to the kind of multi-core you find on 360 and PC. The other way around is not true though if you didn't take PS3 into account. So in some ways while I hate Cell, it is also probably a good heads up on how software needs to be designed moving forward. So I think tech will be more ready for hundreds of core than we might think, if that ever happens. Maybe with the Epic thing, they aren't sure if the hardware will be powerful enough.
Anyway, not that this has much to do with Natami. Thinking of SMP on there seems very ridiculous at this point when its not even being done on AROS/Morphos/AOS4.x. I think if anything it would make more sense to extend the CPU with SIMD first.
No-one is going forward with a design like the Cell for any platform, it's an evolutionary dead end. Better to spend more on the CPU than be stuck with something so awkward to develop for. Besides tasks/jobs are a common way of feeding multiple threads which is simply what the task/job system for the SPEs hid from you by using the SPURS library.
Instead of SPEs we'll see more fully formed AMP systems where the SPEs can actually access main memory and handle more than 32k in or out at once.
This is the relevant part, extending it with SIMD, pipelining the N68050/70 better, making it OoO etc are probably all a better idea right now than making the system SMP capable.
There's good argument for having another CPU to offload tasks to like the GP2X's second ARM cpu be used for or the PlayStation2's IOP. That's more like treating the second cpu as a co-processor.
This is one thing that AmigaDE had right in concept. We have seen this actually implemented with graphics cards. I don't know if it still has it, but at one time, any features of DirectX that were not implemented in the graphics card would be emulated in software. We already have very effective AMP in most systems with one processor running graphics, and a completely different architecture running the rest of the code.
As long as there is a fall back virtual machine, the effort to port to new platforms should be trivial in comparison to porting the entire OS. New platforms would require a small (in comparison) effort to get the base system up and running, and then anything after that would be optimization.
I suspect that in the short run, this would have a performance hit, but in the long run, it would keep the system from being tied to any one system. It would also allow for an unprecedented level of backward compatibility, as you could always run the old system as a subsystem of the new one.
FYI: That PDF is actually old and out of date. You will find some hidden goodies later. :cool:
Yeah I know when it comes to the PS3 is a quesion of debate about cores. But the 360 is 100% multicore
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_hardware
I'd say in some ways the Cell is more "multi-core" than other CPUs. Those SPEs run autonomously to each other. The only real interaction between them is explicit DMA between memory. Other than that, those CPUs can do pretty much any kind of computation other CPUs can, except they are pretty short on local memory.
In order to leverage all those Cell SPEs you have to design your software architecture and code REALLY well (e.g. tasks/jobs instead of the traditionally used threads). A byproduct of this is that the task/job code you design for this is usually easier to scale up to hundreds of cores as compared to a threaded model.
Once you have code that will run on Cell, it is relatively easy to port it to the kind of multi-core you find on 360 and PC. The other way around is not true though if you didn't take PS3 into account. So in some ways while I hate Cell, it is also probably a good heads up on how software needs to be designed moving forward. So I think tech will be more ready for hundreds of core than we might think, if that ever happens. Maybe with the Epic thing, they aren't sure if the hardware will be powerful enough.
Anyway, not that this has much to do with Natami. Thinking of SMP on there seems very ridiculous at this point when its not even being done on AROS/Morphos/AOS4.x. I think if anything it would make more sense to extend the CPU with SIMD first.
As an AROS developer and LLVM supporter you should know about this PDF (http://nativeclient.googlecode.com/svn/data/site/pnacl.pdf). It's an attempt to run Google Native Client apps in the browser regardless of what processor it has.
No one wants to buy a computer today that can't get online out of the box...the Natami team included.
I disagree with that view...
To me the main reason for the Natami is quite simple, I'd like to be able to buy a new Amiga that can run all my old software, hopefully a bit faster on things like PageStream & ImageFX, without having to scour ebay and pay ridiculous prices for an 060 board.
The ability to access the net would be nice but not a necessity... :)
For legacy support, Google wants to have C++ LLVM.
I didn't realize people were still spreading this myth. Aside from sharing some banal power saving tricks, the Xenon is no more similar to the Cell than any other modern PPC chip.
I disagree with that view...
To me the main reason for the Natami is quite simple, I'd like to be able to buy a new Amiga that can run all my old software, hopefully a bit faster on things like PageStream & ImageFX, without having to scour ebay and pay ridiculous prices for an 060 board.
The ability to access the net would be nice but not a necessity... :)
In that case, the ReplayArcade board may suit your needs. (aka fpgaarcade).
The initial MX run will come with '060 cards so that will still be pricey.
If thats all you want then uae on aros on a PC is probably good enough.
I didn't realise that anyone didn't know this.
How can it be a myth when it comes from the guy working for IBM?
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3904/processing_the_truth_an_interview_.php
The powerpc chip in the xenon and the cell is basically the same & it was designed for sony. Apart from the instruction set, it has nothing in common with older designs & yet they both have a lot of things in common.
I didn't realise that anyone didn't know this.
I've read the article and it's not exactly conclusive. Most of what he says is out of context and refers to Sony's perception of the situation as if it were fact.
Is this story still going...
The PPE was an *existing* PowerPC core that was taken and rejigged for the Cell using new circuit design techniques. There's nothing spectacular about it other than it runs at 3.2GHz and only uses something around 25W on 90nm. Something nobody else got even close to.
IBM took the PPC part and used it in the 360's Waternoose processor (yes, that's the actual codename).
It's not actually that important though. All the action is in the Vector units. In the 360 they added on a heavily customised version of AltiVec. In the Cell they used SPEs.
You can see the similarity here:
(http://www.blachford.info/pics/VariousPics/Cell360s.jpg)
BTW the design techniques are not that spectacular either, domino logic has been around a long time and it's been used in ATI GPUs, and is in use in the iPad / iPhone CPU. It was going to be used in the AMCC Titan but it got canned. It'll likely appear in more Apple chips as they bought one of the companies who specialised in it.
Better, but still not 100%. Yes the design created for Microsoft has several improvements related to floating point instructions.But both processors, while fast, still suffer from an in order execution pipeline that standard PPCs (which can execute instructions out of order) do not have.
The designs have similar cores, but these are not standard PPC cores.
What's a good example of a modern PPC, though?
There are no current desktop PPC chips, and the game consoles are getting pretty long in the tooth.
We already know about the Natami. They have a team who invite you to be a part of it, then kick you out without explanation, and they remove the posts of experienced and respected Amiga coders from their forum. What a wonderful group of people they are! Already a lot of my friends have decided to not make Natami-enhanced versions of their games anymore, and I'm sure others will drop support once they realise how badly the team is running things.
I used to have unlimited enthusiasm and hope for the Natami, I enjoyed clearing things up about the project with people and explaining more about it in detail, convincing doubters that it's a good idea afterall, encouraging the Amiga coders I meet all around the world that they should think about SuperAGA-enhanced versions of their games. I'm working on games of my own which would have had much nicer graphics if we were still going to make a Natami version. But the Natami team thinks I'm so useless they should just kick me out without telling me why.
I wonder how well they'll do now when so many of their supporters are losing faith in the project because of the bad team management.
Cammy,
I'm very sorry to hear that you feel like this.
This might be a good example of the problems of miscommunictions.
This is how we saw/experienced the situation:
- You said that you wanted to develop AMIGA games.
- We told you that we are currently developing Amiga games.
We ask you if you would like to take part in this.
We invited ypu to do playtesting of our new 194x game.
And we offered you game sources as exmaples for Amiga/Natami game development for you.
- You accepted to join.
- We gave you access to the Natami Team section, including access to our game source repositories.
- You were several times asked to introduce yourself to the rest of the team in the Team forum or the Team IRC server.
- You were kindly asked to take part in the team communication.
- 2 month did pass but you did not take part in any team communication.
Only in the public Natami channel you wrote this.
Cammy based on this I tought that you did change your mind and that you did not want
to take part in our developments efforts. Because we thougth you did not want to take part anymore your team access rights were disabled.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.
If you want to develop games for Amiga the offer still stands.
The NATAMI team is a team efforts. You or anyone wanting to take part can still take part now or anytime.
And please don't worry about lack of experience, we all started with zero.
This is not specifically a Natami question, but something I've wondered about FPGA clones in general.
How practical would it be to use any leftover space on the FPGA to create a secondary core that mimics a simpler computer, like say a VIC-20, that could run in tandem with the main Amiga core?
I expect that we will have to wait for one of the next generation of games consoles to get a peek - one of them is bound to stay with PowerPC.
01net also claims to know some of the technical specifications of the new console (translation from Develop): "CPU is custom IBM PowerPC with three cores, GPU should be an ATI from the R700 family, with a shader unit at version 4.1. RAM should be at least 512 MB."