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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga community support ideas => Topic started by: fishy_fiz on March 17, 2010, 11:57:13 AM

Title: new os3.x software ?
Post by: fishy_fiz on March 17, 2010, 11:57:13 AM
Firstly, Im mostly just bored and thinking aloud (or in text) here, I have no specific particular ideas or plans, Im mostly just interested in peoples thoughts.  I guess the crux of it all is me wondering just how many 680x0/classic/amithlon/heavy uae, etc users there are still ? Personally my main used "amiga" system is amithlon, but I do still have a strong interest in actual classics too (of which I have no working machine atm unfortunately). The main reason I ask is out of curiousity towards how much money there is in this portion of the amiga pie ? Not that I expect anythone to get rich from it, but, for example are bounties for os3.x/68k software/features/etc. feasible? Bounties arent the be all/end all solution, but they have done some good for the other amiga systems. I know there's a few things Id like for os3.x. Im also curious as to what sort of sales a (hypothetical) good, commercial/commercial quality new 68k amiga game might generate? Again I know no-one is going to get rich, but would, say, 100 copies be feasible ?
I know other routes are considered "the future of amiga", but I still enjoy os3.x/68k amiga systems and it would be nice to get some nice new "big" software/features from time to time.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Crumb on March 17, 2010, 12:20:12 PM
68k bounties may be interesting :-)
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Cammy on March 17, 2010, 01:32:28 PM
I'm a heavy OS3 user! I'm addicted and need my fix for several hours a day. :p
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: a1200 on March 17, 2010, 01:41:39 PM
OS3 for me too... was only slightly interested in OS4/MOS/AROS but the interest is waining.... Bounties for OS3.x apps and ports of software and games would be appreciated I think.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Moto on March 17, 2010, 03:34:43 PM
+1
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: SamuraiCrow on March 17, 2010, 03:36:17 PM
Count me in Fishy!  I'll be trying to bridge the gap between the hardware platforms eventually, but for now there's no substitute for a good classic Amiga except the Minimig and it's sequels.  I'd welcome the Natami too but it's still in development.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Tumbleweed on March 17, 2010, 03:42:55 PM
Quote from: fishy_fiz;547999
The main reason I ask is out of curiousity towards how much money there is in this portion of the amiga pie ? Not that I expect anythone to get rich from it, but, for example are bounties for os3.x/68k software/features/etc. feasible? Bounties arent the be all/end all solution, but they have done some good for the other amiga systems.


Bounties IMO are a good idea, but how successfull they will be depends on the number of active OS3.x/M68k developers there are with sufficient time to do the coding. There are lots of OS3.x users but not many active developers.

My tuppence worth.

Weed
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on March 17, 2010, 03:50:05 PM
If you sell games/tools for 99 cents you could probably make a thousand bucks.
Just keep the price low... I buy simple apps or games for $5, sometimes more. If the price is more than $15 I will just hunt for a pirated version so the writer gets nothing.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: haywirepc on March 17, 2010, 03:54:09 PM
I would pay or contribute 100$ for an ibm extended ansi capable telnet application for os3.x...
 
As far as I know, there is none, only regular ansi, not ibm extended ansi.
 
Tradewars looks like poop on my amiga.
 
There is tons of telnet bbs systems still around on telnet, and that would be a great thing to do on your amiga but it looks like shit without the support for ibm extended ansi.
 
:)
 
As far as natami, I stopped watching it because I don't think they will ever finish anything, but I still hope.
 
Steven
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: a1200 on March 17, 2010, 03:54:14 PM
@Fanscale

Well you shouldn't pirate anything just because it doesn't fall within your budget -that's like saying "I can't afford that car, so I will steal it instead". However, I see your point. For example a large percentage of PC software out in the wild has been pirated, yet I wonder if Microsoft sold Windows and Office for say, 10 dollars a pop, would anyone even bother with activation hacks and suchlike?
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: save2600 on March 17, 2010, 04:38:02 PM
+1 from me too. Big OS3.x user and these days, digging 3.1 more than 3.9!
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: mongo on March 17, 2010, 05:31:51 PM
Quote from: haywirepc;548034
I would pay or contribute 100$ for an ibm extended ansi capable telnet application for os3.x...
 
As far as I know, there is none, only regular ansi, not ibm extended ansi.
 
Tradewars looks like poop on my amiga.
 
There is tons of telnet bbs systems still around on telnet, and that would be a great thing to do on your amiga but it looks like shit without the support for ibm extended ansi.
 


Term + telser.device should work.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Ral-Clan on March 17, 2010, 06:55:21 PM
I use OS3.9 all the time - but I'm mostly an apps user not a gamer.  So I'm interested in any "productivity" software or utilities.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Cammy on March 17, 2010, 07:52:42 PM
Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd post the latest screenshot of my A1200's Workbench. It's running in 16 colours so it's nice and responsive, and you can see both GlowIcons and NewIcons, the drawers for the Christmas game competition games, icons for SabreMSN and AmiMSN (two up-to-date OS3 MSN clients), and Tiny Invaders.

(http://www.amiga.org/gallery/images/5087/1_IronManWorkbench.png)

I'm running in PAL High Res Interlace with as much Overscan as my LCD TV will display, running through an RGB-S-Video adapter from AmigaManiac, so there's no flicker, just a nice solid display (with noise-reduction which helps soften the dithering).
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: a1200 on March 17, 2010, 09:10:57 PM
Cammy that is a work of art. I too like many it seems have decided that running OS3.1 is better overall than 3.9 :). Just bought the developer cd 2.1 so I should be coding soon for the Amiga myself. I do a little php etc, so "how hard can it be??!?!"
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: NovaCoder on March 17, 2010, 09:59:38 PM
Quote from: fishy_fiz;547999
Im also curious as to what sort of sales a (hypothetical) good, commercial/commercial quality new 68k amiga game might generate? Again I know no-one is going to get rich, but would, say, 100 copies be feasible ?
I know other routes are considered "the future of amiga", but I still enjoy os3.x/68k amiga systems and it would be nice to get some nice new "big" software/features from time to time.


It's a good question.  I believe that if someone produced an original and professional classic game then many classic users' would buy it just for the novelty value of buy a 'new' game.  I don't think you'd be able to charge very much for it though.

To sell the most copies you'd probably target a base 1200 machine.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: sbeehre on March 17, 2010, 10:03:06 PM
Quote from: NovaCoder;548098
It's a good question.  I believe that if someone produced an original and professional classic game then many classic users' would buy it just for the novelty value of buy a 'new' game.  I don't think you'd be able to charge very much for it though.

To sell the most copies you'd probably target a base 1200 machine.


i would buy a new game and i think it should be targeted at an expanded 1200 with an 030 etc and maybe take advantage of recent cool hardware like the indivision aga etc.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: kickstart on March 17, 2010, 10:24:08 PM
Quote from: Cammy;548071
Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd post the latest screenshot of my A1200's Workbench. It's running in 16 colours so it's nice and responsive, and you can see both GlowIcons and NewIcons, the drawers for the Christmas game competition games, icons for SabreMSN and AmiMSN (two up-to-date OS3 MSN clients), and Tiny Invaders.

(http://www.amiga.org/gallery/images/5087/1_IronManWorkbench.png)

I'm running in PAL High Res Interlace with as much Overscan as my LCD TV will display, running through an RGB-S-Video adapter from AmigaManiac, so there's no flicker, just a nice solid display (with noise-reduction which helps soften the dithering).


I like to see os3.x setups without gfx cards =)
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Gulliver on March 17, 2010, 10:32:48 PM
It would be an excellent idea to have OS3.x bounties. I am 100% with this.
Anyway, as a sidenote, MorphOS, AROS and OS4 users could benefit from this too, as all of them have some sort of OS3.x emulation enviroment
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Tumbleweed on March 17, 2010, 11:04:32 PM
Quote from: Gulliver;548108
It would be an excellent idea to have OS3.x bounties. I am 100% with this.
Anyway, as a sidenote, MorphOS, AROS and OS4 users could benefit from this too, as all of them have some sort of OS3.x emulation enviroment


From the number of posts on this topic its clear that there is a decent amount of support for bounties. Which in principal I agree with. However what would be top of the list for new OS 3.X software?

For me its a CSS capable web browser. A bounty to encourage the contued development of say Neturf or Origyn for O3.X would gain my backing .I 've laready contributed to the development of Neturf directly to Artur via PayPal.

Weed
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Gulliver on March 18, 2010, 12:03:47 AM
So, of course we are speaking of OS3.x apps, no RTG only 68k apps, so then:
-Port Zune (MUI Aros clone to 68k w/ native chipset support)
-Netsurf/OWB (68k w/ native chipset support)
-CGX and Warp3d both have a way to be run on AGA (what about a P96 driver for native gfx chipset? It would be slow, but it could allow native chipset gfx users to use P96 programs)
-I allways find it would be great to have a wordprocessor with user customized spelling check dictionaries and a direct support for the .DOC format from the MAC/PC.
-A centralized system preferences program much like Morphos 1.4 and p.O.S. had. This way it is much more comfortable, and avoids having to deal through a crammed Prefs drawer.
-An application that mixes both DevHandler and Wbstartup+ programs functionality
-A good and easy to master "Partition Magic" clone

And a few more that just cant seem to remember :)
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: kickstart on March 18, 2010, 01:11:55 AM
I support this thread but amiga world is like a tree these days too many ramifications (i like morphos, os4 and maybe aros but isnt binary compatible) but its a pity the situation of classic amiga, developers dont code for amiga.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: a1200 on March 18, 2010, 01:30:19 AM
I am not much bothered about a CSS/flash/java browser if the target machine is AGA or less, simply because the pages will still look crap and in low resolution. I think the apps would be better written to what the Amiga is strong at, paint/animation programs, TV and music editing, games and possibly an office-type package. A browser is nice but most websites are targeted at much higher resolutions than we can handle - unless I suppose if it is done but with loads of support for the various graphics options.....

... saying that, gfx cards are RARE! How about expanding the bounties to include hardware? By paying the hardware guy's R&D costs, this would allow them to make classic hardware without so much financial risk....
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Nearly-Right on March 18, 2010, 01:47:35 AM
Hi Cammy,

Quote from: Cammy;548071
Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd post the latest screenshot of my A1200's Workbench. It's running in 16 colours so it's nice and responsive, and you can see both GlowIcons and NewIcons.


Very nice, almost looks like OS4 window style.

I wondered what were you using for the window border and gadget set, and I take it you are using OS3.1, or is it some other WB version?
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: klx300r on March 18, 2010, 02:33:52 AM
@ NovaCoder

I agree! If a new game were to come out for AGA miggys' heck even for OCS/ECS I would buy it just to support new Amiga classic devolpment!  I use my OS4.1u1 for my web browsing and new/classic gaming needs nowadays but occasioanlly still boot up OS3.5 on my 1200 with Blizzard 030@50 and A500 with 1.3 :-)
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: matthey on March 18, 2010, 02:38:39 AM
There are still some active classic developers and we are still developing. I am currently working on a new version of ADis disassembler. I look for bugs by comparing reassembled programs (from ADis) with the original. Differences are usually bugs in ADis or Frank Wille's vasm. Frank has fixed several bugs already too. Sounds pretty boring, but vasm is used in the C compiler vbcc and one of the HUGE problems is poorly optimizing 68k C. I am also experimenting with reassembling AmigaOS 3.9 libraries for 020+ with ADis. I can usually speed up and save a few k per library. It needs to be very bug free though. I would like to make a new exec.library with several enhancements at some point. I'm working with a group of developers to try and get Warp3D and StormMesa working better as well. I've already fixed some bugs in the Voodoo drivers. Warp3D suffers from aweful 68k code optimization. I asked Hyperion for help or source to Voodoo drivers but they did not answer my e-mail. The biggest problems us developers run into is...

1) Many Amiga users do not report bugs or communicate. We can see that Amiga users download our programs. Don't be afraid to drop an e-mail. Many Amiga developers have suspended work on projects because they didn't think users were using their programs and/or there weren't any more bugs reported. There are some very active and vocal users on the other hand, namely the ones posting in this thread :).

2) There isn't a good optimizing C compiler for 68k. Vbcc is comming along but it's a huge project to make a crossplatform multi-CPU C compiler. GCC has generated some horrible code and some of the newer versions have gotten worse. Many C developers don't even know when their code runs at 1/2 speed. This is more common than you think.

3) We don't have source code to fix old programs. Many old authors don't bother to release source code because they think the classic Amiga is dead. Thomas Richter is ready to release a new layers.library if he had permission. He thinks we could come up with the sources for the classic OS and continue developement if we had permission. Warp3D could be 50% faster if we had the sources. We need a free the OS3.x campaign. Maybe a Hyperian support your software campaign too.

In conclusion, it's rather frustrating developing for the Amiga classic. We are making progress though. Get involved and help someway. There will likely be more fpga Amiga's (Natami or enhanced MiniMig) so 68k can have a future if we plan for it. The classic Amiga is too good and fun to die.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Cammy on March 18, 2010, 02:43:37 AM
The window theme I'm using is kind of based on the SilverGreen theme from OS4.1.1, I'm using the Blue version at the moment. It's one of Rebel's Workbench theme packs for VisualPrefs/Birdie/MUI. I'm running OS3.1, but these themes work in OS3.0-3.9 as well.

Also, I think a bounty to maybe get IBrowse open-sourced might be nice. While CSS support is unlikely, it's still a great browser for viewing the websites that do still work. Also, if you open IBrowse on a Super High Res Interlace or HighGFX screen, most websites fit fine. Since netbooks are so popular these days, the average screenwidth has dropped to 1024 again so website developers are being encouraged to design their sites to scale or fit.

I've never really been interested in towerising my A1200 or adding a graphics card. I figure if I want a 24bit RTG Workbench I can just use Aros and Amithlon on my PC. I like sqeazing everything I can out of the original chipset anyway. Besides, we'll have the Natami soon!

And speaking of the Natami, and also the MiniMig and FPGArcade, they all will run OS3 so the market isn't disappearing, it's growing! And of couse there's WinUAE/AmigaForever.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: SamuraiCrow on March 18, 2010, 03:00:53 AM
Quote from: matthey;548153
2) There isn't a good optimizing C compiler for 68k. Vbcc is comming along but it's a huge project to make a crossplatform multi-CPU C compiler. GCC has generated some horrible code and some of the newer versions have gotten worse. Many C developers don't even know when their code runs at 1/2 speed. This is more common than you think.

Sidewinder and I have been trying to drum up support for LLVM on the 68k Amiga.  If the 68k backend is completed, the Clang compiler would be available for the Amiga.  The catch is that it is mostly written in C++ and the backend is written mostly in a utility called TableGen.

The closest backend to the 68k would be the Intel x86 series.  It would need to be stripped down to the bare minimum also since 68k doesn't support vector registers.

I expect when we start the 68k backend we'll probably use VASM as our assembler unless we need JIT support.  We will need to render code directly to RAM if we do that.

Keep in touch, Matthey!  We'll need to have all the help we can get.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: SteveD on March 18, 2010, 03:13:28 AM
First, to Cammy, that is the coolest AGA Workbench I've ever seen.  Unbelievable.  But . . . I'm a graphics card guy.  At least after running OS 3.1 on a 1084 recently.  Scary stuff.

I would support a bounty for an OS 3.x version of OWB, etc.  I often like to use AmiKit or AmigaSYS on my PC, but get frustrated by lack of a modern browser.  With a modern browser and a Catweasel, my PC Amiga use would rise exponentially.

Every other idea in this thread sounds good, too.  I love 3.x and would be overjoyed to see new apps.  And even though most users of all the WinUAE variants are probably gamers, I'm sure there'd be at least some support for nice apps.  And I do still hope Natami appears.  But if not, there's other possibilities.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: ami_junki on March 18, 2010, 03:25:51 AM
I would definitely buy some new OS3.1 software, if I can use my Amiga for my daily needs I will do, it is just a much nicer experience.  Unfortunately due to my job I have to use "industry standard" software so I don`t get as much time as I would like to spend on the Amiga.  By the way Cammy that is a gorgeous Workbench, you must have put a lot of effort into it.  Would you ever consider releasing a pack like ClassicWB with your Workbench set-up, I am sure many people would love to have a Workbench like yours.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: ami_junki on March 18, 2010, 03:32:20 AM
Quote from: Cammy;548071
Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd post the latest screenshot of my A1200's Workbench. It's running in 16 colours so it's nice and responsive, and you can see both GlowIcons and NewIcons, the drawers for the Christmas game competition games, icons for SabreMSN and AmiMSN (two up-to-date OS3 MSN clients), and Tiny Invaders.

(http://www.amiga.org/gallery/images/5087/1_IronManWorkbench.png)

I'm running in PAL High Res Interlace with as much Overscan as my LCD TV will display, running through an RGB-S-Video adapter from AmigaManiac, so there's no flicker, just a nice solid display (with noise-reduction which helps soften the dithering).


How much Chip ram do you have left over when using that set-up?
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: fishy_fiz on March 18, 2010, 03:37:03 AM
It's good to see some interest in stimulating development for os3.x/68k, but as some of you have touched on, where to start ? As for what to include, for now I think nothing should be off the table. New drivers, new apps, new patches, ports, whatever. Being that os3.x is these days a community driven system it's up to the users to shape what happens. Best plan of attack in my opinion is just for people to say what they'd like to see and hopefully the most commonly wanted things will become clearer.
Here's my thoughts:

Software should be completely system friendly. This makes bounties of use to OS4.x/mos/amithlon/draco/etc users as well. Theoretically it also opens up potential for people doing bounties for other amiga based systems to simultaneously do a 3.x version when/if applicable.
Software should consider users of classic users where applicable. (for example, a 68k open office might run ok on amithlon/winuae/etc., but if there's other roads to more modern features that will be usable on "real" amigas maybe they should be considered 1st). For me it's not about big names, but new features/functionality/software for os3.x.

As for what I'm interested in supporting:

Either a new browser, on updating existing browser (I guess Aweb is the most likely candidate for the latter). Alternatively there's a few interesting 68k browsers for other OSes. Cant hurt to email those guys. (ICab for 68k mac os and an atari st browser whos name I cant think of at the moment). Netsurf and OWB 68k versions are useful, but not really something I'll use (yet) for my main browser, and unfortunately not really useable on real (non emulated) 68k hardware.
Support for ms word .doc files. Unfortunately this is essential for me as my uni assignments are in this format and often with images, etc.
Video editting software. Ideally with some sort of compatibility with Adobe Premier (again for uni purposes), but I have no idea what sort of open source options there are out there, let alone ones that are realistic. Id be happy with something simpler though, so long as it exported to things like cdxl and iff anim.
I dont know how feasible this one is, but Id dearly love some openpci gfx card drivers with 3d acceleration. Being that Im predominantely an amithlon user I'd love to get 3d acceleration. I dont really know the technicalities involved, but if it was possible to develop a 3d subsystem and a driver or 2 that would work on both amithlon and classic amigas I'd be a happy man.

There's plenty of other stuff I'd like to see, but theyre probably the things that are of most interest to me at the moment.

So, feel free to say what you'd like to see or any thought or ideas, and hopefully eventually a clear path as how to progress will start to show itself.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Cammy on March 18, 2010, 03:48:35 AM
Quote from: ami_junki;548163
How much Chip ram do you have left over when using that set-up?


1,771,808 graphics mem left! I run FBlit :)

Credit should go to Rebel, though. He created this universal, OCS-compatible palette. It's compatible with MagicWorkbench, NewIcon, Iconographics and GlowIcon sets, MUI, a whole bunch of Workbench apps and games, and remaps images pretty well considering it's only 16 colours. The palette is designed to avoid DBLPal/NTSC flashing, it works with MagicTV, and doesn't interfere with mouse pointer colours (you can use any colour cursor you want). He designed all the bitmaps and GUI gadgets, and made a bunch of icons too. We're working together on a theme pack, and we'd love to make something like ClassicWB, except it would be more like ModernWB, since the focus would be on all the newer OS3 software and internet applications rather than classic gaming.

Anyone with an Amiga with enough RAM (and preferably a 020+) can run a Workbench like this, and it's very responsive!
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Gulliver on March 18, 2010, 04:13:30 AM
Go for it Cammy! It sounds great. You should be definately releasing your theme pack in some ClassicWB way, and yes, ModernWB sounds good enough.

I will be waiting ansiously!
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: haywirepc on March 18, 2010, 05:57:38 AM
Cammy,

Thats probably the most beautiful 16 color workbench I've ever seen, or ever will see... Looks like much higher color depth to me, its fantastic!

Steven
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: ami_junki on March 18, 2010, 06:10:31 AM
Quote from: Cammy;548165
1,771,808 graphics mem left! I run FBlit :)

Credit should go to Rebel, though. He created this universal, OCS-compatible palette. It's compatible with MagicWorkbench, NewIcon, Iconographics and GlowIcon sets, MUI, a whole bunch of Workbench apps and games, and remaps images pretty well considering it's only 16 colours. The palette is designed to avoid DBLPal/NTSC flashing, it works with MagicTV, and doesn't interfere with mouse pointer colours (you can use any colour cursor you want). He designed all the bitmaps and GUI gadgets, and made a bunch of icons too. We're working together on a theme pack, and we'd love to make something like ClassicWB, except it would be more like ModernWB, since the focus would be on all the newer OS3 software and internet applications rather than classic gaming.

Anyone with an Amiga with enough RAM (and preferably a 020+) can run a Workbench like this, and it's very responsive!


Wow that is amazing, thanks for the all the info, I hope that you guys can get ModernWB out someday, if I wanted to use the same palette, can I download it from Aminet?  I would definitely be interested in downloading something like that to fix up my Amiga, at the moment New Icons looks terrible in 16 colours on my machine :(
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Cammy on March 18, 2010, 06:26:48 AM
I'll pressure Rebel to at least upload the palette and first few theme packs on Aminet over the next few days. Here's an older screenshot of his Workbench running an Ubuntu-style theme in the same 16 colour palette http://www.amiga.org/gallery/images/2061/1_SabreOS3Screenshot.png
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Gulliver on March 18, 2010, 06:37:57 AM
That one looks cool too!
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: ami_junki on March 18, 2010, 06:54:27 AM
That would be really great Cammy, would really appreciate it, don`t have as much time as I would like for setting up the Amiga.  Amazing how the Amiga Workbench can look so good in just 16 colours.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Jiffy on March 18, 2010, 08:36:58 AM
New apps would be great, whether it be games, utils or other. Updated networkrelated sofware (I am still eagerly awaiting IMAP-support in YAM) is very high on my list.

For games, I wouldn't mind larger (non-floppydisk based) games with highly improved graphics. I'm dreaming of high resolution versions of graphical adventures such as Day of the tentacle, Monkey Island or The Pawn, supporting external midi sound modules...

Common apps often support higher specced Amigas, but games commonly only support the lowest common denominator and thus hardly make use of faster processors, more memory, large harddrives, flicker fixers and so on.

And yes, I would most likely pay for software like that, if it was a real improvement over existing software.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: kickstart on March 18, 2010, 09:23:44 AM
Maybe a free ibrowse can be a good start.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on March 18, 2010, 09:46:02 AM
Games sound like the place to start. Because there are likely to be more gamers.
Assuming you get permission I'd donate to such a bounty. Rummage through the old DOS and Win 95 games and pick out your top 3.

My first suggestions are:
SSI Panzer General 2
SimCity 3000. My favourite version.
Ghengis Khan 2

There all should play on A1200 with RAM expanision.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Jiffy on March 18, 2010, 10:08:11 AM
Quote from: Fanscale;548208
There all should play on A1200 with RAM expanision.

Isn't that aiming a little low, spec wise? A 68030 with, say, 8 or 16 MB ram, with highres interlaced graphics (who doesn't own a flicker fixer these days? ;-) ), installed on your harddisk or running from cd would give plenty of 'oomph' to make very nice games with much improved graphics and sound compared to the classic (mostly lo-res) games running from floppies.

Maybe I'm aiming to high, considering I have a Blizzard 1260 and an Indivision AGA in my A1200, but I think it would be better to aim new games for the classic Amiga at higher specced models. The low end miggies have plenty of games already. Why not make use of all the extra power with which many Amigas have been upgraded during the last decade?
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: utri007 on March 18, 2010, 10:20:32 AM
Good start would be MUI/native version of Netsurf web browser.

Current version is based SDL, still usefull but native code and Mui Gui would make it faster and more comfortable to use.

Wouldn't be so hard task for small cropu for coders
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on March 18, 2010, 10:47:38 AM
Something like Simcity 3000 would make good use of the 060s extra horsepower, but it might also be playable on just a 4MB Ram expansion.
Sorry the only thing I can think of that wouldn't need 3D is NFS 1&2. Everything else I've played to death and don't want to see it again in any form.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: fishy_fiz on March 18, 2010, 10:56:42 AM
Yeah, a more "amiga-fied" Netsurf probably seems the most realistic option at the moment as far as a browser goes. There's also Aweb which is open source, but there's probably more work involved in bringing that up to date. Maybe Awebs javascript could be borrowed for Netsurf ?
As for games, Im actually pleasantly surprised by people saying they'd like to see games that utilize upgraded hardware. Apart from doom clones we saw very few games aimed at an upgraded amigas strengths, and it's always something I've want to see. Also being that my main interest in computers is making games it definately doesnt hurt the motivation to pull my thumb out and make a "serious" amiga game.
Oh, not important really, but my dream game to make for 68k amiga is a Resident Evil type clone. With a bit of imagination from the programming side I'd imagine something similar to Resident Evil on the the ps1 or saturn should be doable on an '030+aga machine.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Dandy on March 18, 2010, 11:00:38 AM
Quote from: fishy_fiz;547999


...  
I guess the crux of it all is me wondering just how many 680x0/classic/amithlon/heavy uae, etc users there are still ?



Well, I'm one of them.
My main computer at home is an A4000PPC with Mediator + Voodoo4 + Terratec 512i digital + 10/100 mBit NIC, Deneb USB 2.0 highspeed and OS3.9/WarpOS16.1.
I have also OS4.0 classic installed, but as it does not support everything of my hardware configuration, OS3.9 is my main system.

For the few things that can't be done on the Amiga (or need a disproportional amount of time to be done) I have an XP-PC underneath my desk that I remote control from my Amiga via my home network.

Quote from: fishy_fiz;547999


...
Not that I expect anythone to get rich from it, but, for example are bounties for os3.x/68k software/features/etc. feasible?



Good idea.

Quote from: fishy_fiz;547999


...
I know other routes are considered "the future of amiga", but I still enjoy os3.x/68k amiga systems and it would be nice to get some nice new "big" software/features from time to time.



Yeah - but please include support for the BlizzardPPCs and the CyberstormPPCs!
I noticed that the classic PPCs (PuP/WarpOS) are hardly supported nowadays.

Although I'm planning to get an A1 x1000 once they're out, I will have to rely on my OS3.9 system until there is OS 4.x compatible replacement for all my OS3.9 software I bought in the course of the years.

So it might very well take some years until I will switch entirely to OS 4.x, given the pace professional software I'm interested in becomes available for OS 4.x.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Dandy on March 18, 2010, 11:22:18 AM
Quote from: Gulliver;548124


So, of course we are speaking of OS3.x apps, no RTG only 68k apps, so then:



Nope.
I'm only interested if WarpOS and RTG support is includeded.

Quote from: Gulliver;548124


-Port Zune (MUI Aros clone to 68k w/ native chipset support)
-Netsurf/OWB (68k w/ native chipset support)
-CGX and Warp3d both have a way to be run on AGA (what about a P96 driver for native gfx chipset? It would be slow, but it could allow native chipset gfx users to use P96 programs)
-I allways find it would be great to have a wordprocessor with user customized spelling check dictionaries and a direct support for the .DOC format from the MAC/PC.
-A centralized system preferences program much like Morphos 1.4 and p.O.S. had. This way it is much more comfortable, and avoids having to deal through a crammed Prefs drawer.
-An application that mixes both DevHandler and Wbstartup+ programs functionality
-A good and easy to master "Partition Magic" clone

And a few more that just cant seem to remember :)



I'd like to see new 3d CAD/CAM (mechanical engineering) soft (like DynaCadd) with full CNC support.
And a modern version of NewIO including part libraries and manufacturing support such as CNC drilling.

MathAmation also was a good app back then, as well as FunctionPlotter.

A text processor/DTP program that supports greek alphabet and the use of mathematical/physical formulas would also be highly appreciated.

Ahh yes - and a soft to glue AVI videos together that I took with my digicam...

In short:
I'd really like to see more engineering and scientific software.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Dandy on March 18, 2010, 11:36:38 AM
Quote from: Jiffy;548209


Life sucks. Then you die.



This is the point where my body and my personality get separated.

Quote from: Jiffy;548209


Then they throw mud in your face. Then you get eaten by worms.



No.
The body gets mud thrown into its face and the body gets eaten by worms - not me - the personality.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Crumb on March 18, 2010, 03:04:31 PM
A MUI Netsurf version with ability to use AGA may be interesting. I have a nice A1200 with 060 and 128MB and lack of CSS sucks. I don't have much problems watching dithered images or no images at all but I want that the layout is not completely messed up. The problem is that even with an optimized version It won't be very fast... mobile phones are now faster than our dear miggies. Of course, perhaps some asm optimized versions of libraries (xml2, expat) may be done but that could take a lot of effort and perhaps little gains. Maybe MorphOS OWB is a better choice than Netsurf but I suspect it requires quite a lot of ram more.

I also would like to have some 060/AGA optimized MPlayer version to replace Moovid but a CSS browser is probably higher priority.

I don't hold my breath waiting for MS word200x compatibility... even OpenOffice sucks when you import/export msword docs that graphic forms. Final Writer and Wordworth are nice wordprocessors, use RTF, forget graphics and no problem.

And another interesting thing would be a cdxl encoder library for ffmpeg/mencoder so we could convert films to cdxl format and play them in our miggies. It may be useful for Tubexx as videos could be converted to cdxl and played smoothly.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Cammy on March 18, 2010, 03:28:21 PM
We would need better CDXL playing software first! The current ones are buggy and none of them work on 68000. The ability to use .srt/.sub files would be perfect too, subtitles could be shown on a separate black screen in front of and below the movie.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Hell Labs on March 18, 2010, 03:51:59 PM
Quote from: Dandy;548226
This is the point where my body and my personality get separated.



No.
The body gets mud thrown into its face and the body gets eaten by worms - not me - the personality.

Religion: Ignoring science since the dawn of time.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: SamuraiCrow on March 18, 2010, 04:29:21 PM
Quote from: Hell Labs;548269
Religion: Ignoring science since the dawn of time.
How is this related to OS 3.x software?  You and Dandy are getting off topic.

Also, I don't think that science has existed as long as religion so religion is grandfathered in.  :p
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Tumbleweed on March 18, 2010, 05:06:21 PM
Quote from: Crumb;548254
A MUI Netsurf version with ability to use AGA may be interesting. I have a nice A1200 with 060 and 128MB and lack of CSS sucks. I don't have much problems watching dithered images or no images at all but I want that the layout is not completely messed up. The problem is that even with an optimized version It won't be very fast... mobile phones are now faster than our dear miggies. Of course, perhaps some asm optimized versions of libraries (xml2, expat) may be done but that could take a lot of effort and perhaps little gains. Maybe MorphOS OWB is a better choice than Netsurf but I suspect it requires quite a lot of ram more.


How complicated would it be to code a MUI front end for NetSurf?

Not being a coder I haven't the foggiest idea but would it be a realistic goal? Person best palced to answer is probably Artur, who's done the heavy lifting porting Netsurf to M68K or maybe Bernd_AFA who's also been involved could give an idea of what's involved.

Weed
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: scuzzb494 on March 18, 2010, 06:19:57 PM
The future is retro so a big yay to that... Os 3.x rocks... 'arrrr ' Bring it on.

.... Will you please stop getting me so excited with such talk. I have been trying kick this nasty habit since 1993.... Never been confused.

Great platform. Great OS. Pretty much great everything. Let's keep that flag flying shall we. I am scuzzb494.. think about it.

scuzz
commodore-amiga-retro
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: save2600 on March 18, 2010, 06:30:36 PM
Quote from: scuzzb494;548295
I am scuzzb494.. think about it.
So you were into SCSI devices before '94? That could also mean Mac SCSI. Hmmm... I think you're going to have to work on your screen name a little more so we know precisely what you mean...  LOL!!
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: AmigaMance on March 18, 2010, 10:04:30 PM
Yet another classic Amiga user here.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Photon on March 18, 2010, 11:19:52 PM
"ECS":
- IDE interface that supports DMA
- SFS ported to 68000
- Instant loading of icons (proper caching, or even saved, clickable bitmaps)
- extra non-bitplane hires modes (Indivision ECS-like hardware)
- above preferably accelerated, so there is any chance of a fast antialiased font engine or 3D (dreaming...)

"AGA":
- same as above (SFS already works ofc), but an Indivision with similar non-bitplane modes to the ECS version and software 'accelerated' font and 3D might suffice. Won't help the non-accelerated A1200 owners, though.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: scuzzb494 on March 18, 2010, 11:26:28 PM
Quote from: save2600;548298
So you were into SCSI devices before '94? That could also mean Mac SCSI. Hmmm... I think you're going to have to work on your screen name a little more so we know precisely what you mean...  LOL!!


Mostly a ref to b494 which is where I like to stay computer wise. Strange fact that scuzz has nothing to do with SCSI. I have always had a pointless tag associated with forum chat emails etc... And the day I joined one of the Amiga groups it coincided with me setting up a new dialup account, with Virgin I think. Anyway I was asked for a name and as usual popped the first thing that came into my head... This time though it stuck. Not something I had intended... And why scuzz .. well I had been watching Southpark.

[ quote ]

Cartman: Hey you guys. I know a scary story.
Kyle: Shut up, Cartman! You can't scare anybody!
Cartman: [softly, slowly, flashlight ready] Oh yeah? Have you guys
ever heard of [flashlight on] Scuzzlebutt ?
Stan: Whatabutt?
Cartman: Scuzzlebutt is a creature that lives up on this very
mountain, and kills anybody who dares climb to the top.
Stan: Why?
Cartman: Because, it loves the taste of blood, and likes to add
pieces to its deformed body.
Kyle: Deformed how?
Cartman: Well, on his left arm, instead of a hand, he has..
Stan: A hook.
Kyle: A knife.
Cartman: No! A piece of celery.
Stan: Celery?
Cartman: Yeah, and he walks with a limp. Because one of his legs
is missing. And where his leg should be, there's nothing but
..Patrick Duffy.
Kyle: Patrick Duffy? Damn it Cartman, that's not scary!
Cartman: What do you mean? Have you ever seen Step By Step? [Silence]
So he lives alone on this mountain, and weaves baskets,
and other assorted crafts. They say that on quiet nights you can hear him weaving his baskets. Tahink .. tahink .. tahink.
Stan: Cartman, you suck at telling scary stories.
Kyle: Yeah, give me that flashlight. [takes it and turns it off]
Kenny: [Volcano rumbles] (Hey, what's that?)
Kyle: What is that?
Stan: Maybe it's Scuzzlebutt coming to weave us into wicker baskets.
Cartman: Hey, it might be!
Kyle: Gosh, I hope he doesn't cut me with his celery hand.
[the others laugh]
Cartman: You guys! Go to Hell!

[ end quote ]

And thats the truth. I must annoy Scuzz though, the Rock Channel, cus when you Google scuzz in amongst the dozens of pages dedicated to Scuzz Rock Channel there on the first page is Commodore Amiga Retro.... :-)

Where were we ?

scuzzlebutt
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Jose on March 18, 2010, 11:32:43 PM
Another one here, though not my primary OS, I use an XP machine for work stuff and Amiga for fun computing. Anyway, I think we should focus on apps that most of us want, like web browser.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Cammy on March 19, 2010, 07:54:22 AM
Would anyone like to help set up a new IBrowse/AWeb-compatible Amiga games development forum? I think if we're going to get any work done at all, we need a new forum where we can all get to work. Underground Arcade used to have a forum, but the host deleted it and we were left stranded. I wouldn't intend the forum to be a competitor to Amiga.org or any other Amiga forums, the sole focus will be on Amiga games development. We can use UtilityBase for application development, and Amiga.org and other general Amiga forums for discussion, but we still need one central forum for games development, with a companion website for Amiga games news and downloads.

My head is about to explode from all the ideas I have for new Amiga games, programs and hardware peripherals, and I really need a place to vent some of this so we can make it happen.

Can anyone help? Does anyone know PHP and remember how to code sites without CSS? Are there any graphic designers who'd like to help us?

Please, I know if we can get Underground Arcade up, running, and open for anyone interested in developing Amiga games, or wanting to learn how, we'll have a much better chance of seeing some great new software for the Amiga this year and in coming years.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: utri007 on March 19, 2010, 09:56:02 AM
eab.abime.net has some game devlopemet, like new version of eye of the beholder I & II

Should you look at there?
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Cammy on March 19, 2010, 10:48:22 AM
Thanks, you've been a great help!
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: utri007 on March 19, 2010, 11:02:23 AM
Your wellcome

This kind of threads turn quite often so unrealistic bullshit that it makes me puke.

But native Netsurf with MUI gui would be really usefull for all of us and more important it would be realistic project.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Dandy on March 19, 2010, 12:31:44 PM
Quote from: Hell Labs;548269


Religion: Ignoring science since the dawn of time.



Sorry for going slightly off-topic, but appearently you're not aware of all scietific works.

I recommend to read the books of the German physician Burkhard Heim - especially "Postmortale Zustände" (Postmortem States).

In case you don't speak German, you can google for "Burkhard Heim", "EHT" (Enhanced Heim Theory", or just look here:

http://www.rialian.com/rnboyd/burkhard-heim.htm
http://www.heim-theory.com/Contents/contents.html
http://www.heim-theory.org/tiki-index.php?page=Homepage
http://www.hpcc-space.de/publications/index.html   (leads to more links)
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=4385
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: kolla on March 19, 2010, 12:40:43 PM
Quote from: matthey;548153
I am also experimenting with reassembling AmigaOS 3.9 libraries for 020+ with ADis. I can usually speed up and save a few k per library.


Can do you it the other way around as well?
My minimig craves for it. :hammer:
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: koshman on March 19, 2010, 12:48:28 PM
Another classic user here. As for the browser I actually think that Netsurf is good (and fast) enough on 060, but of course a more optimized version would be welcome.

As for games, let's stay 2D, please :) E.g. I love the new GBA/NDS Castlevania games, they look awesome and a similar game in Highres Laced should be doable on 030. Generally, GBA and NDS are good sources of inspiration on fresh new 2D gaming experiences. SRPGs and turn-based strategy games in general are not exactly fresh, but definitely possible on Amiga in higher res. HOMAM type game for Amiga would be nice, something like Viewtiful Joe maybe, Myst-like puzzle/adventure games, Puzzle Quest, Zombie Driver (a little obscure personal favourite :D ), Little Big Planet - all recent games that should be possible on mid-specced Amigas.

@ scuzz. Don't you write on your website that your nick is in fact inspired by SCSI?

EDIT: I'd love an up-to-date version of ScummVM capable of playing Grim Fandango, MI3, 4 ....
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: scuzzb494 on March 19, 2010, 01:06:27 PM
Quote from: koshman;548447
A


@ scuzz. Don't you write on your website that your nick is in fact inspired by SCSI?

EDIT: I'd love an up-to-date version of ScummVM capable of playing Grim Fandango, MI3, 4 ....



Kinda. I was just being totally honest in the previous post where the name originally came from. I certainly was influenced in keeping the name as I delved deeper into the wonders of SCSI. And more and more folk started to relate the name as something to do with SCSI so I kinda just allowed that to be the given reason. There is no doubt that SCSI for me is a marvel and I have found it to be the way forward on generally all my Amigas. So easy to set up and expand the Amiga. Love it to death.... I do have a private page which explains  the origins. But for those that want the association to be to do with SCSI I have no problem in adopting that either.

Was quite strange meeting a long standing Amiga friend last week, who I have communicated with for many years as scuzz, for me to introduce myself by my real name. He still kept calling me scuzz...

Happy days.

me
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: koshman on March 19, 2010, 01:09:57 PM
Ok :)
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: kolla on March 19, 2010, 02:00:29 PM
Things I'd like to see...
* OS 1.0 - OS 3.9 available as public domain, including sources if available
* Freedom to create and distribute upgraded custom kickstarts for all Amigas, that support large disks, partitions and filesystems
* Freedom to rebuild components of OS 3.5+ for 68000, and being able to distribute the binaries, and sources, without being witch-hunted for it
* Freedom to rebuild components of OS 1.0-3.9 to 020+ and whatever, and being able to distribute the binaries and sources, without being witch-hunted for it

And more specifically:
* kingcon-handler replacement that is also romable for 68000 :)
* Preference programs for OS 3.9 that dont rely on Reaction toolkit, or...
* Reaction toolkit rebuildt for 68000 as well (it boils down to just a few binaries AFAIK)
* HAM checkmark option in SYS:Prefs/ScreenMode for modes that support it (like MUIScrMode (http://aminet.net/package/util/wb/MUIScrMode1_5) has)
* ROMable env-handler (it is supposedly better than HappyENV, which is ROMable)
* An improved picture.datatype for 68000-68060 that is dedicated for use on native chipsets
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: fishy_fiz on March 19, 2010, 02:45:22 PM
It seems one of the common thoughts is a more modernised browser, and an amigafied netsurf really does seem to be the most realistic option. My only concern with that is so far it does look a little heavy. As much as I'd prefer efforts to focus on upgraded machines I think targetting something like an '030 with 16 or 32 meg fast as a minimum spec for software to be useful is a better idea than only having something usable on '060. Ive never really looked into netsurf sources, but how much can it be speeded up ? current os3.x uses sdl if Im not mistaken, both for input and gfx ? While I appreciate the efforts by the os3.x maintainer, it's still not really an option for the majority of classic users, and has a little work to be done yet. Personally Im all for supporting a bounty based on netsurf, but in my opinion there would have to be a fairly big speed up for it to be the right choice. Does anyone else have any broswers they know of that may be viable ? There's always OWB, but that's heavier again. And Im I right in assuming a browser might be one of the first 68k bounties to try ?
Please keep any thoughts and ideas coming. Im eager to get something started, but arent 100% sure where to start yet.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: utri007 on March 19, 2010, 02:56:01 PM
Netsurf run well with quite old RiscOS machines, compared to about 030
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: save2600 on March 19, 2010, 03:22:41 PM
Quote from: fishy_fiz;548475
Im eager to get something started, but arent 100% sure where to start yet.


Yes, you're observations are right about a modern web browser. IMO - that should be the most important place to start for anyone looking to do anything productive with OS3.x.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Gulliver on March 19, 2010, 04:48:05 PM
The problem with Netsurf is that the current Amiga port is really bloated, it requires 128Mb of ram and may work with 64MB. The original, still being developed RiscOS version only requires 16MB. So either RiscOS is much better than AmigaOS, or the port simply sucks.
Bottomline, I would choose another browser to work on. I have said it sometime ago, there is an excellent candidate that will work with 68000 and a few MB of fastmem. It is opensource, and is working with CSS. It has a small group of developers coding on it.
It is called HighWire, and is an Atari application. :)


http://highwire.atari-users.net/
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: utri007 on March 19, 2010, 05:17:26 PM
Gulliver: SDL sucks :) it works nice with 64mb memory. I ques that 128mb is for UEA users whom want to watch videos etc from youtube
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: kolla on March 19, 2010, 06:34:07 PM
Quote from: utri007;548510
Gulliver: SDL sucks :) it works nice with 64mb memory. I ques that 128mb is for UEA users whom want to watch videos etc from youtube
You want to watch videos of them on youtube? :hammer:
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: lionstorm on March 19, 2010, 06:59:43 PM
and dont forget that Netsurf currently lacks javascript !
an updated version of AWeb would be nice but dont forget that someone is still working on a CSS browser for all amigaos flavors (Merlin browser http://home.kpn.nl/spijk336/browser/home.html ) and there is also an incomplete webbrowser named Paihia and its author was willing to share the sourcecode to whoever was interested ( http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=22649&forum=15#386963 ).
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Tumbleweed on March 19, 2010, 07:28:59 PM
Quote from: Gulliver;548508
The problem with Netsurf is that the current Amiga port is really bloated, it requires 128Mb of ram and may work with 64MB. The original, still being developed RiscOS version only requires 16MB. So either RiscOS is much better than AmigaOS, or the port simply sucks.
Bottomline, I would choose another browser to work on. I have said it sometime ago, there is an excellent candidate that will work with 68000 and a few MB of fastmem. It is opensource, and is working with CSS. It has a small group of developers coding on it.
It is called HighWire, and is an Atari application. :)


http://highwire.atari-users.net/


What's needed to run this on an Amiga?

Weed
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: matthey on March 19, 2010, 07:30:28 PM
Quote from: kolla;548444
Can do you it the other way around as well?
My minimig craves for it. :hammer:


68020 code can be made to work on the 68000 but it is much more difficult. Code has to be added to support missing instructions for example. The 68k is forward compatible but not backward. From 68000 to 68020 is mostly just deletion and some minor optimizations. Vasm performs many of the optimizations for me on reassembly. It's still possible to do 68020 to 68000. If there isn't many 68020 instructions it can be trivial. It's easy to miss things like the scale factor not being used on the 68000 though. I am really wanting to do a 68020+ for the new BoingBag updates and Natami right now. You might try learning assembler to do the modifications yourself. I really wanted a good disassembler with floating point support. I had never done a program bigger than hello world in C but now I have ADis working well enough to reassemble libraries. You also now have the tool I created to help you. You see how this works ;).
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Gulliver on March 19, 2010, 07:46:45 PM
Quote from: utri007;548510
Gulliver: SDL sucks :) it works nice with 64mb memory. I ques that 128mb is for UEA users whom want to watch videos etc from youtube

It doesnt work nice with 64MB, and i am not even thinking on Youtube videos. I have an Amiga 68040 @50 mhz + 64MB and an RTG card + a fast ethernet card, and let me tell you that if I simply use Netsurf and go to http://www.yahoo.com Then my memory simply evaporates to about 10 MB! So 64MB is barely enough for that browser, and keep in my mind that I am using only one open browser window, and that when you try to switch to another website, during the slow process load, you arent even able to move your mouse pointer (Goodbye multitasking).
If you dont believe me, try it under WinUAE, and you will experience the same thing!
Bottomline: Netsurf is better than nothing on Amiga 68k, but it is not really usefull, unless you have a 060, 128MB and a GFX card. So I wouldnt loose time on it.

IBrowse on the other hand, is A LOT faster, and uses very little fastmem. The sad part as you all know, is that it doesnt support CSS and that development and commercial availability have been non existant for a while
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: kolla on March 19, 2010, 08:14:10 PM
Yes yes yes, a css capable browser for 3.x would be nice, but it's now been more than 10 years of no go, and the demand today is a heck lot less than what it has ever been, with css-capable browsers for all the Amiga OS spin-offs. Why not concentrate on something usefull the 3.x systems can actually do instead of wasting so much time and energy on browsers that hardly will be usable for much anyways?
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: kolla on March 19, 2010, 08:58:19 PM
Quote from: matthey;548557
68020 code can be made to work on the 68000 but it is much more difficult. Code has to be added to support missing instructions for example. The 68k is forward compatible but not backward. From 68000 to 68020 is mostly just deletion and some minor optimizations. Vasm performs many of the optimizations for me on reassembly. It's still possible to do 68020 to 68000. If there isn't many 68020 instructions it can be trivial. It's easy to miss things like the scale factor not being used on the 68000 though.

Yes, I'm aware of differences, and as you say, going from 68000 to 68020+ is much easier that the other way around, that's one of the reasons I dont quite like the trend of dumping 68000 for marginal gains. If at some point in the future you might want/need 68000 compatibility again, it's just so much more work.

And why code for 68000 instead of 68020? Well, first of all Freescale still offers a whole range of cheap 68000 chips that might be used in various minimig incarnations. This is not the case for 68020+ chips, they are mostly out of production, or very expencive.

Secondly there are several 68000 softcore options for FPGA, and as of yet, no 68020 one that I am aware or. The 68000 softcores are already faster than any 68020 was, I dont know how much of a speed gain a 68020 softcore will have over a 68000 softcore or a real 68000 chip. Anyone?

Sure, keep on optimizing for 020+, but please just don't leave 68000 code behind, and please pretty please mark the binaries with what the CPU requirements are, so that "version full" shows it clearly, I have wasted quite a bit of time with programs and libraries that just crashed out of the blue when updating from one version to the next, without any mention of any 020+ optimization in the changelogs.

Quote
I am really wanting to do a 68020+ for the new BoingBag updates and Natami right now. You might try learning assembler to do the modifications yourself. I really wanted a good disassembler with floating point support. I had never done a program bigger than hello world in C but now I have ADis working well enough to reassemble libraries. You also now have the tool I created to help you. You see how this works ;).


You are absolutely correct, I should engage myself more in this.  I have played around with various asm sources I've found, changed and compiled, tested, crashed, changed more, compiled again, tested, crashed again etc... :laughing:

What I never managed to wrap my head around though, is disassembling, so any tool and help in that regard is most welcome :)
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Rebel-CD32 on March 19, 2010, 11:00:54 PM
I agree with Kolla. While having a web browser that works on more websites would be nice, I think there are more important things to focus on, like a new picture.datatype. A bounty to have IBrowse open-sourced might work, if someone wants to dedicate themselves to writing a CSS engine for it. But then again we do have Merlin, which could evolve into quite a usable browser and already works on systems that OWB and Netsurf wouldn't have a chance of running on.

I also agree with Cammy, if we're going to get these games finished we need somewhere to discuss and work on them, just like our old Underground Arcade forum, and if it was IBrowse compatible it'd be a huge bonus since I could pixel in Personal Paint, chat in WookieChat, and keep an eye on the development forum all from my A1200, which is my system of choice above anything else.

Also, on the topic of 68000 and 020+ code, after seeing how well Workbench and those AGA games run on a fast 68000 softcore, I think it's really important to keep developing 68k and 020+ binaries so these newer Amiga-compatible systems will run them (and run them faster than a 020 would anyway).

I'll always be here, willing to work on any classic Amiga software. I'm only a pixel artist but Amiga applications and games still need graphics.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: matthey on March 19, 2010, 11:00:57 PM
@kolla
The gains in optimizing for the 68020+ is significant in some cases. It's also easier for an assembler programmer. It's almost as easy to make a 68000 version for a compiled program. I still like to see cpu optimized versions of compiled programs but the trend is not too. It's probably because it doesn't matter much for UAE. I can compile you a 68000 version of ADis if you want to try it. The tricky part about the 68000 is that it only allows byte accesses to odd addresses. It's hard to be 100% sure of this even with testing. It also makes some programs very difficult to modify from 68020->68000.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Gulliver on March 19, 2010, 11:24:02 PM
Quote from: kolla;548585
Yes, I'm aware of differences, and as you say, going from 68000 to 68020+ is much easier that the other way around, that's one of the reasons I dont quite like the trend of dumping 68000 for marginal gains. If at some point in the future you might want/need 68000 compatibility again, it's just so much more work.

And why code for 68000 instead of 68020? Well, first of all Freescale still offers a whole range of cheap 68000 chips that might be used in various minimig incarnations. This is not the case for 68020+ chips, they are mostly out of production, or very expencive.

Secondly there are several 68000 softcore options for FPGA, and as of yet, no 68020 one that I am aware or. The 68000 softcores are already faster than any 68020 was, I dont know how much of a speed gain a 68020 softcore will have over a 68000 softcore or a real 68000 chip. Anyone?

Sure, keep on optimizing for 020+, but please just don't leave 68000 code behind, and please pretty please mark the binaries with what the CPU requirements are, so that "version full" shows it clearly, I have wasted quite a bit of time with programs and libraries that just crashed out of the blue when updating from one version to the next, without any mention of any 020+ optimization in the changelogs.



You are absolutely correct, I should engage myself more in this.  I have played around with various asm sources I've found, changed and compiled, tested, crashed, changed more, compiled again, tested, crashed again etc... :laughing:

What I never managed to wrap my head around though, is disassembling, so any tool and help in that regard is most welcome :)


Really interesting...

And following that concept:
Do any of you know of an assembler & dissasembler that can work nicely together and that that its compiler/linker can generate optimized binaries for 020/30/40/60 FPU and non FPU?
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: asymetrix on March 20, 2010, 01:06:20 AM
This is an interesting thread.

I think we need an uptodate assembler environment, with time have lots of examples and tutorials that work 100%.
A 68k assembler editor with code folding etc - nice
A no fuss installation.

Having a sticky thread that updates info, suggestions etc would be great. The aim to recreate the 68k developer base and educate the next generation of Amiga coders.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: DavidF215 on March 20, 2010, 02:47:44 AM
@fishy_fiz (initial post)

Great things can come from boredom thinking. Good question. I was actually porting some of my game code into AmigaForever when I came across the bridge of wanting to be cross platform friendly. Long story short I ended up landing on SDL/OpenGL, and now working my way in that direction. Amiga has SDL but, by what I've read in this thread, it's not very good, and I'm not sure if the OpenGL calls in Amiga-SDL work with Warp3D (anyone know?). I also discovered that the Amiga compiler I was using didn't like BOOL types; weird. I use AmiDevCPP now. My games are 2D (except one) but I want OpenGL since 2D can be rendered faster on 3D objects (rects) with 3D hardware. My [Windows] games can be found at whitesaber.com.

As far as what to make, I would say 2D games and a web browser. I don't use AmigaForever much because it doesn't have a web browser that doesn't crash a lot. I was using it when I was attempting to program in a classic Amiga environment. On the other hand, I might use it more if it had more modern games or the ability to code cross platform friendly code in OS3.x.

I would think that the user base for UAE is pretty decent. AmigaForever continues to have new releases, so it must be making adequate sales to justify updates and newer versions.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: matthey on March 20, 2010, 04:03:04 AM
@DavidF215
I'm pretty sure bernd_afa's SDL uses Warp3D. It works well but it's still slow because SDL can only work in a few graphics formats. Many SDL programs also use ixemul which is also slow. These are usually coded with GCC which doesn't optimize well. Get the picture?
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: matthey on March 20, 2010, 04:47:19 AM
Quote from: Gulliver;548620
Really interesting...

And following that concept:
Do any of you know of an assembler & dissasembler that can work nicely together and that that its compiler/linker can generate optimized binaries for 020/30/40/60 FPU and non FPU?


ADis and vasm work well together as do IRA and vasm. Most of the time, a program can be disassembled and reassembled without errors. The biggest key is removing instruction errors from the disassembler and assembler. This is what I have been testing for and Frank Wille and I fixing. Vasm optimizes and will usually save several hundred bytes by simply disassembling and reassembling. However, an experienced assembler programmer (me :) should look for mistakes and do further optimizations. I can remove dead code, do a better job than patch020 for integer math routines while recovering space, and switch to faster memory copy routines while saving space again. It is still possible to make mistakes or have a problem with disassembled code. It is especially difficult to tell a small amount of code from text or data. Much testing should be done.

Vasm does some optimizations based on the CPU (and FPU) selected but not much. There is not much to be gained here unlike optimizing for a CPU with a compiler. Most OS components do not use the fpu at all. Using the fpu is almost always slower than using integer routines.

I should have some libraries for you to start testing before long. They are datatypes.library and diskfont.library. I chose these 2 because they are small, relatively easy and usually resident in memory so will save ram. I have finished my preliminary testing of ADis and Vasm for errors and I'm working on Warp3D libraries 1st. I am learning as I go. I'm still not 100% sure I can produce error free enough reassemblies with optimizations to distribute but I should know within the next few weeks.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Gulliver on March 20, 2010, 05:50:46 AM
@matthey
Thank you for your answer, that was really what i was looking for. I am waiting for a little vacation and will tinker with those a bit :)

I will ansiously wait for your datatypes.library and diskfont.library optimized versions.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: kolla on March 20, 2010, 09:21:11 AM
I'm very curious on what kind of optimizations that has gone into c:Makedir of OS 3.9 :laughing:
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: utri007 on March 20, 2010, 05:08:45 PM
There is something wrong with your setup, I've 060 66mhz with 66mb memory, about half of it is free after loading of amiga.org
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Gulliver on March 20, 2010, 05:51:21 PM
@utri007
Now surf to http://www.yahoo.com and tell me how much free ram you have. Memory consumption is site dependant. Some web layouts require more ram than others. So check :)
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: bernd_afa on March 20, 2010, 06:30:34 PM
Quote from: Tumbleweed;548030
Bounties IMO are a good idea, but how successfull they will be depends on the number of active OS3.x/M68k developers there are with sufficient time to do the coding. There are lots of OS3.x users but not many active developers.

My tuppence worth.

Weed


>Bounties IMO are a good idea, but how successfull they will be depends on the number of >active OS3.x/M68k developers there are with sufficient time to do the coding. There are >lots of OS3.x users but not many active developers.

there are a lot of 68k devs, on 68k there is the most own program software written, but because on other AOS systems there are bounties and the MOS OS4 developers do many ports, and news sites report more when a new OS4/MOS program come, then 68k is more in the background of publicity.but when look in aminet or OS4depot you can see that the same few people do most of programs (Ports) for OS4 or MOS.but there are also programmers that support all systems .They can good program and its only seen from "the Unix Software Porters" that platform independeent programs that are portable written only run on a special AOS.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Crumb on March 23, 2010, 04:44:41 PM
Quote from: Photon;548357

- SFS ported to 68000


It would be cool to be able to use SFS on plain 68000. I wouldn't mind about sourceforge's SFS being recompiled so we can use TD64 version with TD64 hd controllers from phase5, warpengine, individual computers... without the need of OS3.9 romupdates.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: DavidF215 on March 24, 2010, 07:37:58 AM
Quote from: matthey;548690
@DavidF215
I'm pretty sure bernd_afa's SDL uses Warp3D. It works well but it's still slow because SDL can only work in a few graphics formats. Many SDL programs also use ixemul which is also slow. These are usually coded with GCC which doesn't optimize well. Get the picture?
The picture being that Amiga dev tools are old and in need of updating? Got that pict; plus maybe skipping Amiga SDL. Is it the SDL framework/library that uses ixemul or the actual programs coded using SDL? Anyone know if Hyperion plans to update Amiga-GCC?
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: fishy_fiz on March 24, 2010, 08:07:51 AM
OS3.x native devtools are maybe a little outdated (maybe not, but it's hard to find definitie answers about where it stands, let alone binaries) for people wanting to port *nix software, but Im under the impression cross compilers are more up to date. OS4.x GCC if Im not mistaken is based on 4.1.x, so it's not too out of date. Having said though though, being that it's still an actively developed commercial product I'd be surprised if it didnt receive at least semi regular updates still.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: matthey on March 24, 2010, 10:49:15 PM
@DavidF215 & fishy_fiz
GCC for PPC code generation is not nearly as bad as 68k. The newest 4.x versions of GCC still does not generate optimized code for 68k. Some of the newer versions are worse. GCC 2.9.5 may generate the best 68k code. VBCC and SAS/C generate better code in most cases. VBCC is still being updated with Amiga support which includes an awesome optimizing assembler. Frank Wille has some other developing tools he is supporting as well. Thomas Richter is actively supporting his Mu (mmu) tools. I am making a much improved version of the ADis disassembler that is already very useful. We have some of the low level tools but some of the high level tools are very sophisticated and require a lot of time and skill to perfect. Making a cross platform C compiler which supports most CPU's is a huge project much like these multi platform web browsers that we don't have. I think we are gaining some momentum and users back. If we could get a fpga solution like Natami or MiniMig+ with AGA and 020+, we might have something.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: DavidF215 on March 25, 2010, 01:36:28 AM
Quote from: matthey;549571
@DavidF215 & fishy_fiz
GCC for PPC code generation is not nearly as bad as 68k. The newest 4.x versions of GCC still does not generate optimized code for 68k. Some of the newer versions are worse.
What type of impact does this lack of optimization cause? I've read a little about it, but haven't read its impact. Impacting graphics performance, I/O performance, data processing performance, etc? For example, a game--what is significantlly impacted such as blitting, game logic, sound, network and at what processor level is it seen? What processor level, if any, would no longer notice the performance hit?

Quote
GCC 2.9.5 may generate the best 68k code. VBCC and SAS/C generate better code in most cases. VBCC is still being updated with Amiga support which includes an awesome optimizing assembler. Frank Wille has some other developing tools he is supporting as well. Thomas Richter is actively supporting his Mu (mmu) tools.
I have SAS/C, I think. I was using StormC3 for a while instead.

Quote
I am making a much improved version of the ADis disassembler that is already very useful. We have some of the low level tools but some of the high level tools are very sophisticated and require a lot of time and skill to perfect.
I stopped at C/C++. Tried to learn assembly but decided it was too much work. :)

Quote
Making a cross platform C compiler which supports most CPU's is a huge project much like these multi platform web browsers that we don't have.
Yes, I've experienced the cross platfom development can be a pain, especially deciding what dev tools to use.

Quote
I think we are gaining some momentum and users back. If we could get a fpga solution like Natami or MiniMig+ with AGA and 020+, we might have something.

This is what I'm watching, too. If a MiniMig+ with AGA (RTG maybe?) hits I might buy one to replace my aging A1200.

I've been wondering if developing for 68k would be adequate enough for most Amiga systems. It's emulated on faster machines and native on 68k hardware, so it seems a decent fit for all. Graphics seem to the the sticking point.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: fishy_fiz on March 25, 2010, 03:46:10 AM
Quote from: DavidF215;549584
What type of impact does this lack of optimization cause? I've read a little about it, but haven't read its impact. Impacting graphics performance, I/O performance, data processing performance, etc? For example, a game--what is significantlly impacted such as blitting, game logic, sound, network and at what processor level is it seen? What processor level, if any, would no longer notice the performance hit?


Do you mean in regads to the level of support "compiler x" has ?  The code generated by a heavily optimised compiler  vs. a more generically compiled compiler can be pretty big actually. Depending on the software it's probably not impossible to achieve something around %50 faster (and more in certain cases) on a heavily optimised compiler. As for using compiler optimisations vs none using the same compiler, there's probably not a massive differerence, unless there's supporting code for "cpu x".  At the end of the day though, worse case scenario for a binary generated can be a lot worse than best case scenario depending on compilers and optimisations used.
Hope this answers what you was asking ?
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: DavidF215 on March 25, 2010, 05:06:28 AM
Quote from: fishy_fiz;549592
Do you mean in regads to the level of support "compiler x" has ?  The code generated by a heavily optimised compiler  vs. a more generically compiled compiler can be pretty big actually. Depending on the software it's probably not impossible to achieve something around %50 faster (and more in certain cases) on a heavily optimised compiler. As for using compiler optimisations vs none using the same compiler, there's probably not a massive differerence, unless there's supporting code for "cpu x".  At the end of the day though, worse case scenario for a binary generated can be a lot worse than best case scenario depending on compilers and optimisations used.
Hope this answers what you was asking ?
Well, let's take the old game "Payback" as an example. On a 68020, would game play responsiveness and performance be noticably slower if the code was compiled with GCC (not optimized compiler) as opposed to SAS/C (optimized compiler)?
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: SamuraiCrow on March 25, 2010, 03:07:39 PM
@DavidF215

Actually, Payback is pretty CPU bound since it is a 3D game.  Having a better compiler would make a HUGE difference.  As for GCC vs. SAS/C, they both optimize code but neither produces near-perfect code so comparing those two might not be the best idea.  The main advantage of SAS/C is its top-notch debugger.

If somebody would offer a bounty for porting LLVM and its associated versions of GCC and the Clang C compiler to OS 3.x, I'd gladly take it.  It doesn't have a decent source-level debugger yet but that can be left for a later bounty.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: DavidF215 on March 25, 2010, 11:40:27 PM
@SamuraiCrow
@fishy_fiz
@matthey

So you're saying (and by what I've read) (1) that there was (is) no well optimized C++ compiler for Amiga68k but GCC 2.9.5 and SAS/C are the better options, and (2) that it doesn't really matter if one uses GCC 2.9.5 or SAS/C for 68k because none are optimized enough to make a noticable difference?
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: matthey on March 25, 2010, 11:51:41 PM
Quote from: DavidF215;549597
Well, let's take the old game "Payback" as an example. On a 68020, would game play responsiveness and performance be noticably slower if the code was compiled with GCC (not optimized compiler) as opposed to SAS/C (optimized compiler)?


GCC is more commonly thought of as a optimizing compiler than SAS/C but the 68k code generator has been so bad on some versions that it completely sabotages any effort toward optimizing. SAS/C didn't do anything complicated but did most of the simple things right. There is still room for improvement with SAS/C. It's register management is not so good but I can find very few simple (peephole) optimizations. GCC has tons. VBCC is the best at peephole optimizations because vasm, it's assembler, optimizes many of them. These small optimizations can really add up too. The Warp3D W3D_AvengerLE.library I recently edited went from 282,312 bytes to 236,908 bytes with primarily 3 optimizations (plus what vasm makes) and dead code removal. I deleted approximately 4600 useless NOP instructions alone. One test showed a 14% increase in speed on the 68060 but that would vary. The Warp3D.library is even worse optimized and one of the worst optimized libraries I have ever seen. It's kind of funny looking at who wrote Warp3D that they didn't see this. I would guess that these libraries would be 20%-50% faster and smaller if they had used SAS/C. It may be possible for Payback to be up to twice as fast if Warp3D and Payback were compiled with a good 68k optimizing compiler (doesn't exist yet) and minor optimizing algorithm changes were done.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: guest7146 on March 25, 2010, 11:58:32 PM
Quote from: a1200;548087
Cammy that is a work of art. I too like many it seems have decided that running OS3.1 is better overall than 3.9 :). Just bought the developer cd 2.1 so I should be coding soon for the Amiga myself. I do a little php etc, so "how hard can it be??!?!"

I'm in a similar boat.  I've also just bought the developer CD, and my background is embedded programming (C, assembly), plus I know a bit of Windows application programming in C++ (though I'm not well practiced in this respect).

I'm also looking to get into Amiga programming over the Summer.

Apple_Hammer
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: matthey on March 26, 2010, 12:01:30 AM
Quote from: SamuraiCrow;549639
@DavidF215
Actually, Payback is pretty CPU bound since it is a 3D game.  Having a better compiler would make a HUGE difference.  As for GCC vs. SAS/C, they both optimize code but neither produces near-perfect code so comparing those two might not be the best idea.  The main advantage of SAS/C is its top-notch debugger.


Have you tried BDebug by Ralph Schmidt in the Barfly archive on Aminet? It's very powerful but still has a bit of a learning curve...
http://aminet.net/dev/asm/BarflyDisk2_00.lha

I used to use Metascope which is the friendliest debugger but It sadly doesn't support the 68060.

Quote

If somebody would offer a bounty for porting LLVM and its associated versions of GCC and the Clang C compiler to OS 3.x, I'd gladly take it.  It doesn't have a decent source-level debugger yet but that can be left for a later bounty.


That would be interesting and probably easier to work with than GCC but it doesn't look like it supports 68k? Wouldn't that be a lot of work? It would be nice for the PPC Amigas.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: chris on March 26, 2010, 12:12:05 AM
Quote from: Tumbleweed;548281
How complicated would it be to code a MUI front end for NetSurf?


I know nothing of MUI, but I am pretty well versed in the NetSurf frontend code.  Firstly, Itix has already written a MUI frontend for NetSurf for MorphOS - however NetSurf has changed a fair bit so it will need updating.  I have no idea how feature-rich or complete that version is, having never seen it.  Knowing nothing about MUI, I couldn't begin to say how much work it is to back-port to OS3 as well as make the necessary changes to bring it back in line with trunk.

Starting from scratch, a native basic working port of NetSurf should take a matter of weeks.  I would of course rather see one based on my OS4 version, as it aids bug-fixing and development for me.  Back-porting the OS4 version to OS3.9 shouldn't be massively complicated, however some routines might need to be completely rewritten.  Pre-OS3.9, I'm not sure which functions and features were in ClassAct.

Quote from: lionstorm;548545
and dont forget that Netsurf currently lacks javascript !


Slowly being worked on.  There's nothing to stop you helping :)

Somebody mentioned memory usage.  There is a problem with the cache in current versions of NetSurf which is in the process of being rewritten.  That's causing extreme amounts of memory to be used on some sites.

Chris
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: matthey on March 26, 2010, 12:14:01 AM
@DavidF215 & AppleHammer
I would recommend using C and VBCC for any new Amiga projects. It's the easiest to install, generates pretty good code and getting better, and it's supported on all flavors of the Amiga. Have a problem or bug then drop Frank Wille an e-mail. If you need C++ then probably your best option is GCC for now but realize it's going to be very slow and eat a lot of memory.

vbcc web site: http://sun.hasenbraten.de/vbcc/
Amiga coding help can be found here...
http://utilitybase.com/
http://eab.abime.net/forumdisplay.php?f=37
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: ChaosLord on March 26, 2010, 05:40:05 AM
@Matthey

BDebug / Metascope can debug C source?!?
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: DavidF215 on March 26, 2010, 09:02:02 AM
Quote from: matthey;549708
@DavidF215 & AppleHammer
I would recommend using C and VBCC for any new Amiga projects. It's the easiest to install, generates pretty good code and getting better, and it's supported on all flavors of the Amiga. Have a problem or bug then drop Frank Wille an e-mail. If you need C++ then probably your best option is GCC for now but realize it's going to be very slow and eat a lot of memory.

vbcc web site: http://sun.hasenbraten.de/vbcc/
Amiga coding help can be found here...
http://utilitybase.com/
http://eab.abime.net/forumdisplay.php?f=37

But my code is already in C++.

Okay, so I've read through the Amiga Developer Docs (http://amigadev.elowar.com/), but I couldn't find functions to load an image (i.e. a PNG or a BMP) from a file. I've also read through the old ACM and Cmanuals, but nothing there either.  ??

What would be the AmigaOS3.x native equivalent of the SDL function:
 SDL_Surface *Image=SDL_LoadBMP("image.bmp");    
...to load a BMP image as, I presume, an Amiga bitmap?
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Tumbleweed on March 26, 2010, 01:22:37 PM
Quote from: chris;549707


Starting from scratch, a native basic working port of NetSurf should take a matter of weeks.  
Chris


So if a bounty were to be raised for a MUI version of NetSurf it wouldn't take too long for someone to produce some results?

If that's so then I'd be up for contributing to a bounty for a MUI version of NetSurf.

Weed
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Gulliver on March 26, 2010, 01:59:43 PM
Quote from: Tumbleweed;549760


If that's so then I'd be up for contributing to a bounty for a MUI version of NetSurf.

Weed


+1
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: SamuraiCrow on March 26, 2010, 04:39:12 PM
Quote from: DavidF215;549745
But my code is already in C++.

Okay, so I've read through the Amiga Developer Docs (http://amigadev.elowar.com/), but I couldn't find functions to load an image (i.e. a PNG or a BMP) from a file. I've also read through the old ACM and Cmanuals, but nothing there either.  ??

You should be looking at the documentation for Datatypes.library.  It loads files of many types.  Picture.datatype is the mainly used datatype.  You don't have to care if the filetype is IFF, GIF, PNG, or BMP as long as the user has the appropriate datatypes to load them.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: chris on March 26, 2010, 07:19:06 PM
Quote from: Tumbleweed;549760
So if a bounty were to be raised for a MUI version of NetSurf it wouldn't take too long for someone to produce some results?


There was some discussion on the dev list about this very topic, unfortunately I can't find the emails where times were quoted for how long it takes to port to a new platform, but it was a matter of weeks (a recent Java port took something like two days).  IIRC I got the OS4 version running usefully in less than two months.

If somebody starts from the OS4 version rather than from scratch they can probably do it quicker and retain most of the features.

Please can I request that if this bounty is created, there are conditions to "join the NetSurf-dev mailing list" and "get the source merged back into SVN".
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: B00tDisk on March 26, 2010, 07:32:49 PM
Quote from: a1200;548035
@Fanscale

Well you shouldn't pirate anything just because it doesn't fall within your budget -that's like saying "I can't afford that car, so I will steal it instead".


Except, of course, for the part where it is totally not like stealing a car, which is all of it.  That is to say, it's entirely not at all like stealing a car.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: B00tDisk on March 26, 2010, 07:35:08 PM
You know, it comes to me that the m68k linux development community might be a place to start.  A lot of more "modernized" linux apps are very dependency-heavy, so that might be problematic, but still, its an idea.  There's sources out there to be ported! :)
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: kolla on March 26, 2010, 10:45:38 PM
But m68k linux devs live in an alternate reality where gcc 4 does not make code that is so much worse than gcc 2.95.3, so I don't think there is much to gain from that.

Yes I have been doing some experimentation, compiling up the very same programs using different version of gcc (2.95.3, 3.4.6 and 4.2.4) and the resulting binaries are similar in size, allthough the ones made with 4.2.4 are typically a little smaller, and the speed is pretty much identical. Newer gcc requires updated (e)glibc, and that is also coming RSN, so I'm looking forward to gcc 4.5.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: DavidF215 on March 27, 2010, 12:47:05 AM
Quote from: SamuraiCrow;549784
You should be looking at the documentation for Datatypes.library.  It loads files of many types.  Picture.datatype is the mainly used datatype.  You don't have to care if the filetype is IFF, GIF, PNG, or BMP as long as the user has the appropriate datatypes to load them.
Thanks. Guess I'll just buy the Dev CD if I can find one.

I've been re-reading the Amiga C Encyclopedia and Amiga was ahead of its time. It was DirectX before DirectX was even thought about. Nicely integrated Library system. It gives evidence that a good product can fail with poor marketing.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: SamuraiCrow on March 27, 2010, 06:18:31 PM
The Dev CD is good for up to AmigaOS 3.5.  If you need 3.9 documentation you can look at http://utilitybase.com/ref/?action=List&funcgroup=AmigaOS instead.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: nicholas on November 15, 2010, 06:55:12 PM
Quote from: Cammy;548071
Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd post the latest screenshot of my A1200's Workbench. It's running in 16 colours so it's nice and responsive, and you can see both GlowIcons and NewIcons, the drawers for the Christmas game competition games, icons for SabreMSN and AmiMSN (two up-to-date OS3 MSN clients), and Tiny Invaders.

(http://www.amiga.org/gallery/images/5087/1_IronManWorkbench.png)

I'm running in PAL High Res Interlace with as much Overscan as my LCD TV will display, running through an RGB-S-Video adapter from AmigaManiac, so there's no flicker, just a nice solid display (with noise-reduction which helps soften the dithering).



WOW!!!! :cool::eek:
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: mechy on November 15, 2010, 07:21:27 PM
I think its great you may wont to do up some stuff for os3.x and such... all i ask is they aren't bloatware designed to run on a fake emulator system at ridiculous speed. What i mean is i have seen the 68K stuff on aminet contaminated with apps that will not run worth a crap on a real amiga, they are either super slow,or ram hungry to the point they crawl(and im talking on a 060 cyberstorm ppc). Test the stuff is useable on a real machine.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: yssing on November 15, 2010, 08:44:35 PM
Jiffy >> Actually AGA could do it, since almost any decent LCD screen can show highres laced without flickering and at a good quality. Although limited to 8bit.

And since its now possible to get a new and fast 1230 card, games and programs could very easily be aimed at a minimum spec that is something like 68030/50mhz/32megabyte ram and highres laced.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: yssing on November 15, 2010, 08:59:25 PM
I am thinking, would it not be possbile to make a "css.library" and use it for an updated version of aweb? like javascript us being used on aweb, or am I totally wrong?

The css.library might be made from the netsurf code.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: actung_bab on November 15, 2010, 10:31:11 PM
first you got find something we all agree on ;-)
l rekon for me be rad to have tversity ported to amiga ,http://tversity.com/
but then alot people think waste of time , but l chould stream tv shows from my amiga that be choice maybe even just music and pics
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Templario on November 16, 2010, 12:05:46 AM
There is a easy way, programming games or tools in some language multiplataform as Hollywood, because bounties only for OS3.x, I'm sorry but I'll not put money in them. We need new software for OS4.x, MorphOS and AROS.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Franko on November 16, 2010, 12:55:19 AM
Probably one of the most useful tools for any Amiga user who enjoys programming in 68k is ReSource... :)

Thanks to this little gem of a program I've managed over the years to disassemble and then optimize, bugfix or add new features to many old original pieces of software that I use frequently.

Currently I'm in the process of disassembling AWEB, which I think was written in C originally. Im not knocking the authors of AWEB but when you see the code disassembled then it's obvious that there can be many optimizations done to this program that should help speed it up quite a bit.

I've got a long way to go yet before it's fully disassembled but that's one of my pet peeves about code written in C, it's bloated and not efficient.

It's the same with the roms, there are several hundred optimizations that can be safely made, ok the speed increase in nothing great but as we all know every wasted cycle on the Amiga that you can get rid of can only be a good thing... :)
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: save2600 on November 16, 2010, 01:05:11 AM
Hey Franko, the first thing you should "fix" in AWeb is that annoying screen blinking it does as it loads and crunches data. Besides wasting processing power with all those refreshes, it's as if the authors were trying to induce a seizure in their users or perhaps it's some kind of subliminal morse code 'love thy Amiga' message.  :lol:
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: chris on November 16, 2010, 07:45:23 PM
Quote from: yssing;592019
I am thinking, would it not be possbile to make a "css.library" and use it for an updated version of aweb? like javascript us being used on aweb, or am I totally wrong?

The css.library might be made from the netsurf code.


http://www.netsurf-browser.org/projects/libcss/
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Iggy on November 16, 2010, 07:59:29 PM
Quote from: Templario;592095
There is a easy way, programming games or tools in some language multiplataform as Hollywood, because bounties only for OS3.x, I'm sorry but I'll not put money in them. We need new software for OS4.x, MorphOS and AROS.


Coding for OS friendly (not hardware hammering) apps should allow AOS4.X and MorphOS to run 3.1 app even if written for the 68K.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: yssing on November 16, 2010, 08:32:01 PM
chriss >> well that is pretty cool...  Then if it can be used with future versions of aweb
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Templario on November 16, 2010, 11:56:35 PM
This is not easy because there are some things that one or other system can't run, for example games with mp3 music files in background, in 68k the mpga.library and on an Amiga classic these games run slow, or using much graphics of big size, this isn't problem with 68k under emulation but not with a real Amiga or running WinUAE in old PCs, for example with CPUs of 600MHZ as is my case, with my old K7.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: kickstart on November 17, 2010, 12:24:57 AM
People dont expect games with mp3 music or apps like google earth for 68k, users need new software accord to the machine.

Please game developers, mp3 for game music isnt the real thing.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: fishy_fiz on November 17, 2010, 07:39:45 AM
Quote from: Franko;592104
Probably one of the most useful tools for any Amiga user who enjoys programming in 68k is ReSource... :)

Thanks to this little gem of a program I've managed over the years to disassemble and then optimize, bugfix or add new features to many old original pieces of software that I use frequently.

Currently I'm in the process of disassembling AWEB, which I think was written in C originally. Im not knocking the authors of AWEB but when you see the code disassembled then it's obvious that there can be many optimizations done to this program that should help speed it up quite a bit.

I've got a long way to go yet before it's fully disassembled but that's one of my pet peeves about code written in C, it's bloated and not efficient.

It's the same with the roms, there are several hundred optimizations that can be safely made, ok the speed increase in nothing great but as we all know every wasted cycle on the Amiga that you can get rid of can only be a good thing... :)


AWeb is actually open source, so might be easier to just download the sources than disassemble :-)
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: runequester on November 17, 2010, 07:46:40 AM
Quote from: kickstart;592339
People dont expect games with mp3 music or apps like google earth for 68k, users need new software accord to the machine.

Please game developers, mp3 for game music isnt the real thing.


tracker or GTFO :)
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Franko on November 17, 2010, 07:54:05 AM
Quote from: fishy_fiz;592384
AWeb is actually open source, so might be easier to just download the sources than disassemble :-)


I have the source code for AWeb dowloaded, but they are written in C, as I only write in M68k I need to disassemble the original prog to get it in 68K code... :)

It's a bit of a pain though as the code is scattered all over the place and even with ReSource it's very time consuming trying to disassemble it properly, but from what I have disassembled so far (about 40%) I can already see lot's of places where the code could be optimized and hopefully sped up... :)
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: TCMSLP on November 17, 2010, 10:14:33 AM
I'm another classic 68k user (50Mhz 68030, 16Mb RAM).

My wishlist (in order of priority):-

1. Port of an SSH client (for example, Putty)
2. Modern, efficient TCP/IP Stack (someone was working on this - but news has gone quiet?)
3. CSS Browser

I'd also like someone to compile a package of known good datatypes with easy installer.  I've spent hours installing datatypes manually, with some (for example PNG) still refusing to work.   Perhaps such a bundle already exists?

Steve

Edit: I'd purchase (or contribute to bounties) for all the above, too.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Franko on November 17, 2010, 10:23:17 AM
There are a few PNG datatype packages on Aminet here...

http://aminet.net/search?query=png+datatype

I personally use the "PNGdt44.lha" package and it runs fine with my OS3.5 system... :)
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: Kesa on November 17, 2010, 10:23:25 AM
That is amazing cammy. i wish my computer was that cool.
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: slaapliedje on November 22, 2010, 03:53:51 PM
Quote from: TCMSLP;592405
I'm another classic 68k user (50Mhz 68030, 16Mb RAM).

My wishlist (in order of priority):-

1. Port of an SSH client (for example, Putty)
2. Modern, efficient TCP/IP Stack (someone was working on this - but news has gone quiet?)
3. CSS Browser

I'd also like someone to compile a package of known good datatypes with easy installer.  I've spent hours installing datatypes manually, with some (for example PNG) still refusing to work.   Perhaps such a bundle already exists?

Steve

Edit: I'd purchase (or contribute to bounties) for all the above, too.

1. Here's several ports of OpenSSH http://linuxmafia.com/ssh/amiga.html

2. I haven't had any issues with Genesis, but more the merrier, as long as it's still backward compatible with other software.

3. Netsurf supports CSS (if I could ever get it to work) and http://home.kpn.nl/spijk336/browser/home.html looks to be an interesting project.

slaapliedje
Title: Re: new os3.x software ?
Post by: nicholas on November 22, 2010, 04:01:11 PM
Quote from: Franko;592387
I have the source code for AWeb dowloaded, but they are written in C, as I only write in M68k I need to disassemble the original prog to get it in 68K code... :)

It's a bit of a pain though as the code is scattered all over the place and even with ReSource it's very time consuming trying to disassemble it properly, but from what I have disassembled so far (about 40%) I can already see lot's of places where the code could be optimized and hopefully sped up... :)


Nah, you don't need to disassemble it mate. GCC outputs the 68k source that it creates from the .c file as a .s file for you.