Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga community support ideas => Topic started by: Antiriad on January 21, 2005, 12:49:43 AM
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I was just wondering why the AmigaOS 4.0 won't be released for x86 Platforms which make more than %90 of PCs around the world? Why do you think linux is gaining on the Windows OS?
I do not think OS 4.0 will survive for too long!!!!
Just my thoughts....
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you may use the search function of the forums to search for 10000 similar threads where a lot of reasons for this are explained.. I don't want to discuss this here or start a flamewar, but 1st you can't compare OS4 with linux, and 2nd hyperion make os4 and they know their capabilities very well and they will have their reasons for not going x86.. this has been discussed to death now both on amiga.org and on other sites.. if you want amiga on x86, install winuae and os3.9, this will give you a very fast amigaOS plus more compatibility than os4 plus you can use every windoze app out there..
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rayt wrote:
you may use the search function of the forums to search for 10000 similar threads where a lot of reasons for this are explained.. I don't want to discuss this here or start a flamewar, but 1st you can't compare OS4 with linux, and 2nd hyperion make os4 and they know their capabilities very well and they will have their reasons for not going x86.. this has been discussed to death now both on amiga.org and on other sites.. if you want amiga on x86, install winuae and os3.9, this will give you a very fast amigaOS plus more compatibility than os4 plus you can use every windoze app out there..
Rogue/Entilzha said recently that the only other CPU that they would even consider porting to would be the Athlon64 line of processors. I think that would be highly unlikely though.
OS4 on AMD64 would be cool though, as i've read that these CPU's have three modes.
1. 32bit legacy mode, where it pretends to be an AthlonXP.
2. 64bit mode with 32bit legacy support. This is the mode Windows XP and Linux distro's operate under, to provide support for legacy 32bit programs on a 64bit OS.
3. 64bit only mode. When the CPU is in this mode, there is no support whatsoever for running 32bit code.
It is the 3rd mode that I think OS4 would be fantastic on, as it has no need to support 32bit apps like linux and windows will have to. It could use the CPU to it's full potential and really be something to be proud of. :-)
Sadly it's never gonna happen, but it's nice to dream eh? :-(
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Cause then there would be absolutely no exsisting software, and it would take much longer time to both port software and the OS to the x86 platform.
You should take a look at Aros, since it is pretty much a os 3.x clone and is even open source aswell.
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Tomas wrote:
Cause then there would be absolutely no exsisting software, and it would take much longer time to both port software and the OS to the x86 platform.
You should take a look at Aros, since it is pretty much a os 3.x clone and is even open source aswell.
And it's just got TCP/IP too! :-D
Once UAE integration is completed, there will be no rational explanation for buying outdated, overpriced, underpowered non-standard hardware anymore. :-P
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God!! Everyone who mentions this gets beaten to death. I wish people would lighten up because ts a legitimate question. If it wasn't people wouldn't be bringing it up all the time....especially as a possibly cheaper solution. The last time a beating occurred Hyperion members said they considered it, but could not do it because of the immense amount of chipsets that would need to be supported. I agree. The next point you could make is pick one x86 motherboard and just support that as a formal Amiga motherboard, then somebody throws somes vegetables at you and tells you, like how would you go pick one? How could you make the deal and on what criteria? I would have thought with the plethora of x86 hardware vendors it would have been easier than inventing a brand new PPC solution, but for some reason I am obviously wrong. Fine....What do I know? Then say you do get an established x86 mobo vendor, the next problem is that they change chipsets so often to keep up with the competition. So there would be a moving target for OS4. So having technology on the A1 that is way behind the times is actually allowing OS4 to get finished sooner as they have all the time in the Amigaworld to get it done...without the technology on the boards changing. Go figure....
What people have to realise, is that if someone gives you a decent answer then its something that can be passed on before the thread goes 4 or 5 pages and too many people get pissed off.
I really think there should be a page on A.org or AW that has an OS4 FAQ or commonly asked questions section. Because the next question asked is going to be, "why no port to Mac". Which I think would be a very short term solution at best. Actually, I'd be happy to write one because I've practically asked every apparently stupid question there is.
(Scurries away ducking the tomatoes thrown)
Ok. Going back to my happy place now. (http://64.33.47.100/images/a1000anim.gif)
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I do think it would make sense to choose certain chipsets, gfx and such to support if they go x86, and then maybe add some support for newer ones as time progresses..
I do think that it would still take a great amount of extra work and time to get it done, especially at getting 3th party software ported.
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Antiriad:
yeah what a wise comment there :-) , just look how it went for BEos / Warp and all thoose other OS's that just had to go x86 and get wiped off the face of the earth.
sure they have a certain user amount still, sure they have alot of problems getting support for all their devices so naturally they just run XP or whatever to fullfill all their needs.
by saying it simple: there is no way to support x86 unless u support ALL the motherboards and geuss what...wont ever happen and if people thought the A1 bugs was annoying then you should check the x86 pc arena.
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> Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
Because...
(or, read all the previous discussions from years and years back, just my thoughts..)
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Tomas: ...it would take much longer time to both port software and the OS to the x86 platform.
How so? The CPU is only a small part of the equasion.
OS4 does have a HAL, you know. Did Hyperion spend years working on a HAL for OS4 just so it could run on Mia chipsets?
Tomas: I do think it would make sense to choose certain chipsets, gfx and such to support if they go x86, and then maybe add some support for newer ones as time progresses.
Exactly. But, people don't want to believe this is possible because their prejudice runs too deep. People still think the will is more important than the way.
Choose one chipset to support at a time. Make a partnership with a single PC manufacturer, as almost ANY one of them will have more manufacturing exerience than a company like Mia. Put on some decent firmware to rid us of the 20-year old BIOS that must be programmed in assembler.
Flexibility of "open" PC hardware without worrying about Windows. Problem solved.
Lempkee: there is no way to support x86 unless u support ALL the motherboards
I am so sick of hearing that. Just about every "alternative" OS in the world runs on x86 -- and others. A good OS architecture doesn't care what hardware you use!
Lempkee: if people thought the A1 bugs was annoying then you should check the x86 pc arena.
Yeah, but it's easier to find and resolve bugs since the hardware is more thouroughly tested and documentation is easier to obtain.
Have you even written software for x86 chipsets before?
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Tomas wrote:
Cause then there would be absolutely no exsisting software, and it would take much longer time to both port software and the OS to the x86 platform.
You should take a look at Aros, since it is pretty much a os 3.x clone and is even open source aswell.
Everyone seems to dodge the issue here -- OS4 just wouldn't be as interesting on PC hardware. Face it -- most of what AmigaOS can do has been done on those systems, and this leads to "BeOS syndrome;" Nth to market, some compelling features, but not enough to differentiate...
PowerPC gives you the small advantages that help make it an Amiga. Lower power, the endianness is right, code is marginally more portable, you can point to the d*mn thing and say that, even if it's overpriced, "This is an Amiga." There's a lot of value in that if you can manage to make money off it. Then, when you do take advantages of the differences in hardware (Altivec, extra registers, reduced latencies in places that go over my head ;)), you have something concrete to point to that can't immediately be reproduced by the competition (well, except for Apple, but these days, they probably already had it anyway)... and you can hope for any other miracles that just might put you light-years ahead of the competition again, as much of a snowball's-chance that may be.
Hey, Amithlon and OS XL should exist (barring legal issues, of course). The same thing for the PPC OS should exist, if people want it -- this isn't the Apple scene, there should, in theory, be a way to get this stuff done without throwing lawsuits everywhere. Heck, I'll say it: even MorphOS should exist, in whatever incarnations it took (all that, and it comes down to #$%#ing MUI?) -- though the initial EULA concerns and so forth were to be an expected cost-of-doing-business with that. OS5 on x86 should exist, if anyone's still banging away on ISA abstraction -- that'd be light-years ahead, though it seems it'll take that long for Fleecy to get the rest of the design docs beamed into his head from Cygnus A. :-D
...But OS4? On x86? Hey, it's called Windows 98, and I hear it runs Amiga emulators pretty snappily, too. Where's the fun in that? Demos, hardware banging? There's already V2 (http://www.v2os.cx/)...
On the other hand, if you pick a different pony, there's at least that slim, slim chance you'll find an advantage of the sort that can't be co-opted in the competition's next point release... and if you're throwing money down the hole chasing something ridiculous (A new AmigaOS? Are you out of your mind?), might as well do it in a way where there's possibly, maybe, just hopefully the slightest possibility you can win.
If you didn't read Slashdot today, there is a snowball's chance. (http://www.blachford.info/computer/Cells/Cell0.html) (Hmm, now what scene could be more familiar with coding for bizarre hybrid architectures?)
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> Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
Mac mini automatically renders any argument invalid.
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lempkee wrote:
Antiriad:
yeah what a wise comment there :-) , just look how it went for BEos / Warp and all thoose other OS's that just had to go x86 and get wiped off the face of the earth.
sure they have a certain user amount still, sure they have alot of problems getting support for all their devices so naturally they just run XP or whatever to fullfill all their needs.
by saying it simple: there is no way to support x86 unless u support ALL the motherboards and geuss what...wont ever happen and if people thought the A1 bugs was annoying then you should check the x86 pc arena.
Lempkee... I appreciate you are not a technical person, but please stop spreading FUD... How come AROS can support all these chipsets?
And bugs in PC chipset get sorted out within months, the high volumes means pretty much all problems are gone by the second revision of the Chipset... in the PPC market the first revision is all that the manufactures can afford...
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You know! I was just thinking about this just yesterday!
and I never thought I would say this but:
Amiga OS4 would have been better off (especially for us AMigans) on a x86 platform.........not for the purpose of beating Windows.............but simply so more of us Amigans can afford to have OS4 because most of us already have PC's!!!!!!!
Then OS4 would have sold 10 times more.........BUT you want to know the REAL problem????
The problem REALLY is...........that the AmigaONE is NOT a REAL Amiga!.....if they were gonna go with the new route to creat a new machine..It should have been Amiga like (new custom chips and all) otherwise it would have beem better off ported to x86.............thats too late now.
Whats a REAL Amiga? If it REQUIRES a PCI card to work......it aint an Amiga!
If it REQUIRES a GFX card..it aint an Amiga
What is a REAL Amiga then? its a super high Powered Game Console disguised in a Computer case...thats the simplest way to describe it........and why so? because a Console says this:
* No Drivers Required
* No gfx card Required (although it can have an option for it)
* No Sound Card Required (can have an option for it)
* No Joystick adaptors Required
* Can boot right from CDrom drive
has at least 2 joyports as standard.
* Everything is Autoconfig
* Doesnt need any upgrades just to get certain programs working (but can have an option for it)
and more logical stuff like this.......3rd party stuuf being as a requirement causes Crashes and OS incompatibility.in the end making the OS look like crap! the same that happens to Windows and Macs and now even Amigas!
Yes....I used the Word Console because it gets the message across......and After All...the ORIGINAL A1000 was a CONSOLE! inside a Computer case..and look how great it was!!!
What are the only Computers in the World that don't crash?
Playstation 2
Playstation 1
Game Cube
N64
SNES
Genesis
XBOX
Get the picture?....imagine having a computer this stable? we did! it was called the A1000 and A500
tsk tsk tsk.............we cant afford to make such mistakes.........definitely not!
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What are the only Computers in the World that don't crash?
Playstation 2
Playstation 1
Game Cube
N64
SNES
Genesis
XBOX
I've seen both a Playstation 1 and an XBOX crash :-)
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@bloodline
Yes.....but thats extremely rare and is probably fault of cheap components.
Nevertheless no where near how Amigas now crash.
My point still stands
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@Leirbag
So by your reasoning, an integrated motherboard for PC, complete with graphics and sound processors would count?
Ok, you need drivers still. That said, the amiga does use and require drivers for all of its onbooard hardware. What do you think .device and .library files are for?
It so happens that for the critical stuff (for IO, graphics etc) these files are in kickstart, so you don't need to load them from disk. That's not such an advantage anymore. Hell, if you are using OS3.5 or higher, and you have the rom updates installed, you already are using disk based replacements for many of these resources.
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leirbag28 wrote:
@bloodline
Yes.....but thats extremely rare and is probably fault of cheap components.
Nevertheless no where near how Amigas now crash.
My point still stands
Not really... Amiga's have always crashed... :-)
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@Karlos
No not an integrated PC (they suck too)
An I DO NOT agree with SOFTWARE based ROM updates.I prefer HArdware Kickstart!
For instance in Next Gen Amiga...they can put a simple small trapdoor to change the ROM
....This actually proves part of my Point.........I have had more trouble with this OS3.5/3.9 ROM update than any other Amiga ROM
and about the drivers..........those drivers are mostly for Workbench itself and the ones for hardware....at least its always for its own native hardware.....which gives it more room for precise improvement! thats VERY important.....rather than trying to figure out someone elses Hardware that you added to your computer.
os 3.1 on a plain A1200,.............Beauty!!!!
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os 3.1 on a plain A1200,.............Beauty!!!!
I prefer 1.3 on an A500 with a 512K ram pack.
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I've seen both a Playstation 1 and an XBOX crash
And my Plastation2 crashed just last week.. Its an old rev4 modded one though ;-)
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The problem REALLY is...........that the AmigaONE is NOT a REAL Amiga!....
And a PC running OS4 is?
It should have been Amiga like (new custom chips and all) otherwise it would have beem better off ported to x86.............thats too late now.
OMG, sure yeah. A new chipset that would be a cinch. One that is a rival to modern sound/gfx/io chipsets :lol:
How long would that take, and how much would it cost? And by the time you did make a new chipset to rival even a mid range modern graphics/sound/io chipset, how far would they have moved on?
Furthermore, why would anybody do that when you can let them install the 'custom chips' of their choice? Why do you think PC hardware has become so advanced anyway? One word. Competition.
You need to realise that sound cards, graphics cards etc. *are* the custom chips of our age. The original amiga custom chips were fantastic in their day and even now are in many respects more flexible than their descendants. However, now in 2005, they are simply quaint. If you can't or won't accept this, then be prepared to be left further and further behind.
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@bloodline
"Not really... Amiga's have always crashed... "
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Yeah! once you started adding 3rdparty stuff!
They rarely crash when the machine is made correctly and 3rd parties follow Commodores guidlines...or at the very least Crash much less
We used to run with this in the past and laugh at how much Windows used to crash and how our Amigas didnt or rarely did.............thats at least better than today.
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leirbag28 wrote:
@Karlos
No not an integrated PC (they suck too)
An I DO NOT agree with SOFTWARE based ROM updates.I prefer HArdware Kickstart!
So, do you use an MMU to remap the Kickstart into RAM, or do you, preferring your hardware Kickstart allow the CPU to sit around twiddling it's thumbs when it needs to call a ROM based routine?
If you do use a remapper then you are a fraud - there is no difference at all between a RAM based rom code loaded from a chip or from disk :-P
For instance in Next Gen Amiga...they can put a simple small trapdoor to change the ROM
Bad move. My early Apollo1240 card has a 'replacable' ROM. And what a total nightmare it is. I have never had such a problematic expansion in my entire life.
....This actually proves part of my Point.........I have had more trouble with this OS3.5/3.9 ROM update than any other Amiga ROM
3.5 works an absolute charm on my 1200T, as does 3.9 and 4.0. So ya boo sucks to you :lol:
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You need to realise that sound cards, graphics cards etc. *are* the custom chips of our age. The original amiga custom chips were fantastic in their day and even now are in many respects more flexible than their descendants. However, now in 2005, they are simply quaint. If you can't or won't accept this, then be prepared to be left further and further behind.
Commodore's biggest mistake... Not selling the Amiga custom chips as Graphics and Sound boards for PCs... That would have been a huge source of revenue, and allowed the Amiga technology to develop :-)
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@Karlos
How long would that take, and how much would it cost?
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it take alot less time than it took for this A1 to be released
and the mysterious OS4......thats for Sure!
"And by the time you did make a new chipset to rival even a mid range modern graphics/sound/io chipset, how far would they have moved on?"
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It would survive alot longer than an A1 G3.......look at the PS2 and Xbox.....how long has PS2 been out and still kicking? hahahaha th New iMac that was just released will kill any AmigaONE anyway.
"Furthermore, why would anybody do that when you can let them install the 'custom chips' of their choice?"
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then get a PC for that..thats what those trashy machines are for. and thats why they are trash..............cant even run anything correctly....always always always freezing and causing headaches..............no no no.............I dont agree my friend
"One word. Competition."
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Amiga will never have Competition with a PC.especially now
"The original amiga custom chips were fantastic in their day and even now are in many respects more flexible than their descendants. However, now in 2005, they are simply quaint. If you can't or won't accept this, then be prepared to be left further and further behind."
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Whos talking about OLD custom chips? I certainly aint....im speaking of an entirely New Genration custom chipset as standard....................socketed so that they can be upgraded by the parent comapny Amiga Inc................just like the Enhanced Chipset and AGA................except they would be much more advanced................and you saving tons of cash cuz your just changing the chips......you can channel that extra cash in your pocket for the Chips................and Amiga Inc pumping more money into the 2nd set of More SUPER powered Custom Chips would justify it...............cuz every Amigan has the same machine!!!!
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then get a PC for that..thats what those trashy machines are for. and thats why they are trash..............cant even run anything correctly....always always always freezing and causing headaches..............no no no.............I dont agree my friend
eh?
You've been standing too near the microwave again... :crazy:
Whos talking about OLD custom chips? I certainly aint....im speaking of an entirely New Genration custom chipset as standard....................socketed so that they can be upgraded by the parent comapny Amiga Inc................just like the Enhanced Chipset and AGA................except they would be much more advanced................and you saving tons of cash cuz your just changing the chips......you can channel that extra cash in your pocket for the Chips................and Amiga Inc pumping more money into the 2nd set of More SUPER powered Custom Chips would justify it...............cuz every Amigan has the same machine!!!!
Games Console Chipset take millions to develop... Microsoft and Nintendo decided to use modified PC chips instead...
You can't socket chips like that... as Chip tech improves... so the supporting architecture needs to be improved to handle higher speeds and more signals...
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@bloodline
"Games Console Chipset take millions to develop... Microsoft and Nintendo decided to use modified PC chips instead..."
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hmmm, they do? how was Hi Toro able to do it? and even if they pumped Millions into it..........wasnt the A1000 worth it? lok at the Following Amiga has now thanks to that. Sometimes sacrifices are way more than worth it. Pump in the money I say if it needs to be...though I dont agree with you.
"You can't socket chips like that... as Chip tech improves..."
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Yes you can!..never say never, you will look bad in the future for saying so.
"so the supporting architecture needs to be improved to handle higher speeds and more signals..."
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Have as many things on the Mobo be replacable including crystals.....................or..................its time for a New Amiga to be released............in the same line as was an A1200 to the A500.............very simple, and people will appreciate it.
EDIT:
And keep in mind..............any new G5 Amiga to be released will have a much longer life than any Mac or PC and doesnt need to be upgraded for more speed the way PC and Mac do.............its a silly game................and because Amigas are always faster because of its OS.....so it will have a longer life per release of system.
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And keep in mind..............any new G5 Amiga to be released will have a much longer life than any Mac or PC and doesnt need to be upgraded for more speed the way PC and Mac do.............its a silly game................and because Amigas are always faster because of its OS.....so it will have a longer life per release of system.
The "Long Life" of the Amiga models is due to lack of demanding software, nothing else.
hmmm, they do? how was Hi Toro able to do it? and even if they pumped Millions into it..........wasnt the A1000 worth it? lok at the Following Amiga has now thanks to that. Sometimes sacrifices are way more than worth it. Pump in the money I say if it needs to be...though I dont agree with you.
The Amiga Cost over well 7 million, and over 3 years dev time, You don't have the luxuary of 3 years now, modern systems have a 6 month life cycle... and it will cost a lot more than 7 million.
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@leirbag28:
Well, let me just say this. If there's ever going to be the next DoomMaster, you my friend are currently in the lead for that position.
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@x56h34
Hahaha, why on earth would you say something like that? im not a Troll if thats what your saying :-)
Im just a Hardcore Amigan
I dont think imitating PC's and their standards will get us anywhere..............we should be leaders in the Market and not be afraid to stick with what works.
(sure.I believe in supporting PCI cards and all..but just supporting...not requiring)
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leirbag28 wrote:
@Karlos
How long would that take, and how much would it cost?
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it take alot less time than it took for this A1 to be released
and the mysterious OS4......thats for Sure!
:lol: Whatever you say :-)
It would survive alot longer than an A1 G3.......look at the PS2 and Xbox.....how long has PS2 been out and still kicking? hahahaha th New iMac that was just released will kill any AmigaONE anyway.
Consoles are targeted at a single purpose, their hardware and firmware reflect this. Real computers have different requrirements.
If you want a fair comparison. run linux on your PS2 for a while and then try it on a modern PC to see the difference.
You also should use a Mac for a while to see what is wrong with your above statement :-) Trust me, I work with them all day long and I want to vomit by the end of it.
"Furthermore, why would anybody do that when you can let them install the 'custom chips' of their choice?"
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then get a PC for that..thats what those trashy machines are for. and thats why they are trash..............cant even run anything correctly....always always always freezing and causing headaches.
One could say the same with your console fixation. If you want a non-crashing computer that needs no drivers etc etc, buy a playstation.
"One word. Competition."
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Amiga will never have Competition with a PC.especially now
I was talking about the competition between rival chipset manufacturers. Without it, you'd not have your GeForceFX, nForce chipset, Radeon etc. And nothing a company with revenue to spare like Amiga could hope to produce a chipset that would even be seen in the dust trail from these ones.
Whos talking about OLD custom chips? I certainly aint....im speaking of an entirely New Genration custom chipset as standard....................socketed so that they can be upgraded by the parent comapny Amiga Inc................just like the Enhanced Chipset and AGA................except they would be much more advanced................and you saving tons of cash cuz your just changing the chips......you can channel that extra cash in your pocket for the Chips................and Amiga Inc pumping more money into the 2nd set of More SUPER powered Custom Chips would justify it...............cuz every Amigan has the same machine!!!!
You clearly havent read or understood a single word I have said about this issue. If you stick to a single chipset provider you are not going to get the benefit of the advancements that competition drives other manufacturers to produce. Hence it will always end up underpowered compared to rival platforms where this competition exists, so you're stuffed. It will cost more, since there are no rivals providing alternatives, so you're stuffed again. Then your hardware manufacturer goes bust and you get no more chipset upgrades period. So you're stuffed yet again.
Sound familiar? It should as it already happened.
Also, apart from swapping denise and stuff, how many 'AGA' drop ins for OCS/ECS systems have you ever seen? AGA required a completely different system layout. If the magical AGA II Pro Turbo chipset appeared needing a 64-bit bus, DDR support etc. etc., you'd need a replacement motherboard again, just like OCS/ECS systems were not able to be retrofitted with AGA.
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@Karlos
I understand all that................we need to learn from our past.
as Far as Macs........My brother is a Mac freak and practically owned every Mac in existance..................
PC's? I use a Pentium 4 everyday..........It sucks incredibly..............Despite that its such a high powered machine............utterly amazing!
my CD32?SX32 functions better...........I use it instead for rendering and conversion because Pentiums suck.............there good when they work..........but they hardly work right.
Also.no one is saying the PC world hasn't broguht us Good things.
But let me end it like this: Do you think an AmigaONE will ever beat Macs or PC's? or even better.do you think it will ever have the Status of the Classic Amiga?
I think you will agree that its NO.................something needs to change...............otherwise I say Buy a PC or Mac............why bother and waste your life!
EDIT: Or release a G5 AmigaONE at the minimum! and pump them out like crazy at lower prices..........buyers will come!...........if not..............I see a dark future ahead
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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
You know, just a few years ago I would have argued against going X86. Those arguements may have been somewhat valid back in years past. Now with the conditions of the computer market in 2005, none of those arguements hold any water IMHO.
How many Teron based AmigaOnes can possibly sell in the next 2 years, with the current sticker price? Maybe 100 per year total worldwide? Ok I'll even go as far to say this.. Let's imagine we are smoking the funny green stuff that Ricky Williams is smoking. Let's imagine Eyetech moves 1000 motherboards a year for the next 2 years worldwide. What is the end result? Well besides Eyetech making a killing, everyone else pretty much suffers. Hyperion sells 2000 OEM copies of OS4, hardly enough money to justify their talents. 3rd party software developers? They certainly won't come back to a market with a software base in the very low thousands.
I am firmly in the X86 crowd now, move on AROS! Hopefully Hyperion will consider Athlon64 in the future.
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@leirbag
Beat them how? Hardware peformance wise, no, likely not. But still, we haven't done that for over a decade. Still, moving from 50MHz 060 to 800MHz G4 is a considerable step in the right direction.
As for status, that depends on what your regard as being amiga-like. My first machine was an A600, soon replaced with an A1200. Then CPU cards etc and finally a gfx card.
Having used my A1200T/PPC/BVision combo since 2000 or so, I'm completely used to RTG, AGA is simple 'retrogaming/demo fodder'...
I also had the loan of an A1XE (G4, 800MHz) for a while. It feels totally amiga like to me - far more so than UAE does, for instance, which I know is a subjective thing. Like UAE, it runs all the 680x0-RTG stuff, but naturally doesn't do AGA.
The biggest feeling of 'connection' is that the same OS4 runs on my A1200, and in the process does support AGA etc. This made the A1 simply seem like a beefier model than the classic, just as an A4K feels like a beefier A1200.
I imagine other A1200/A4000 PPC users that have moved to A1 or Pegasos, or those that have gone to AROS feel the same degree of 'natural progression'.
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@Red
Athlon64 != x86, one of the main reasons I like it :-)
I'd quite like to see a version for that beast too :-D
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would have gained better market share if it was, with the low hardware sales of the amigaone it wont last to long its way out of date hardware allready .
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@Karlos
"The biggest feeling of 'connection' is that the same OS4 runs on my A1200, and in the process does support AGA etc. This made the A1 simply seem like a beefier model than the classic, just as an A4K feels like a beefier A1200."
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I agree with that Karlos..and I agree it feels better than UAE for sure..........I want to buy an A1 myself..and the more I see it the more I want it, but I dont want to invest my money and then be embarrassed infront on my PC and Mac owning friends.............although I hardly doubt that as an A1 can already do stuff a Mac and PC cant do smoothly.
Nevertheless, I want to show off my Future A1 running mac OSX
the Price needs to be droppped Bigtime..........otherwise they will perish.
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@leirbag28:
I'm kidding of course, but you seem to be very persistant about using the...custom chips. :-)
Anyways, the current major problem with the new Amiga One is the lack of good software that you can use with OS4.0.
The OS itself feeles and looks great compared to OS3.9. It's a huge step forward, but...
I have an Amiga One XEG4 system and I can tell you that there's basically nothing released for OS4.0 that pushes the limits of the Amiga One hardware to the max. More development of ANY kind is definitely necessary. It's not like there's developers out there complaining about how they need some sort of new custom chips, or for whatever reason, any speedy hardware compared to what's available...no...you need development to start working seriously, with serious software coming out. Then, and only then, we'll start to see how good the hardware really is and what are the limits of it, and finally, if ANY improvments to it are really needed at this stage.
Of course, a huge reason to little or not enough development is the high price of Amiga One motherboards. If it were a little cheaper, a lot more people would get them and at least give it try. The specs of the Amiga One motherboards are fine...it's the price that's not. :-(
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@x56h34
Well I actually agree..........I see A1's in action all the time and they look impressive...........Yes I still want custom Chips, but I also want Amiga Inc (the parent company to produce its own hardware) Yeah yeah I know they dont have the money.........but thats on my wish list...............One comapany producing the machine calls for less problems and a more Official Amiga. And also support for Mainly the Best gfx card out there...put the other cards as second place when creating drivers............the ATI All in WOnder comes to mind.I prefer it over any N-Vidia card because if its ALL In ONE S-Video In and OUTS and TV tuner. I have one on my PC
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bloodline wrote:
What are the only Computers in the World that don't crash?
Playstation 2
Playstation 1
Game Cube
N64
SNES
Genesis
XBOX
I've seen both a Playstation 1 and an XBOX crash :-)
I have had my ps2 freeze up on gta vice city and that was a brand new orginal version of the game :)
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Well, there is a (very tiny) bounty for AROS going x86-64 (http://www.thenostromo.com/teamaros/bounty_details_21.html). Yes, some of us old Intel Haters have seen the light, and it's mostly shining on AMD. :)
Dammy
TeamAROS
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You know what would rock? Amiga OS on a Playstation 3!
Think of the advantages.
-low cost hardware
-one of the most advanced cpu's on the planet
-everywhere
-no other general purpose OS on this platform
-could be done as a Sony licensee
-fixed hardware requiring no mucking about with different chip versions
The Amiga was always about 2 things, hardware that blew everything else out of the water (circa 1985) and an OS that just made sense. Well, we can have the first again with the PS3, and the second would just require porting.
(Admittedly that could be an expensive difficult undertaking) :banana:
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If you want OS4 on x86, then I would suggest to recruit like minded persons and create a company. Apply for a license agreement for the port (if Amiga, Inc would allow it) then port the code. Once the OS is ported, sale an AMD PC with the OS installed and configured. If you don't think such a business idea would succeed, then why should Amiga Inc, Hyperion, or any other company try porting to x86? If ported, use AMD 64bit only; leave 32bit behind. But it is still a lot of coding, man hours, and money to do it right and in a reasonable time frame.
OS4 on a G5 (which is 64bit, btw) would scream past x86, in GUI performance and most video applications. Of course I'm assuming that OS4 or OS5 will be ported to the G5 in the future. AmigaOS was designed for a low MHz 68000 processor. If the design is kept tight, then think of what it could do on a 64bit processor like the G5.
Also, wait till the next generation of PowerPC chips begin to have more of the Power4 and Power5 technologies. I'm putting my money on IBM's chips against both AMD and Intel because IBM has high end system technology, and they are beginning to integrate their high end technology into their PowerPC chips (staring with the G5). AMD really gained an advantage over Intel when they began integrating Alpha processor technology into their chips. But I still pick IBM chips over even the Alpha chips. Although a comparison of AmigaOS on PowerPC and Alpha chips would be interesting.
If you want x86 OS, try the AROS project or Haiku (http://haiku-os.org/learn.php) project.
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Tomas wrote:
bloodline wrote:
What are the only Computers in the World that don't crash?
Playstation 2
Playstation 1
Game Cube
N64
SNES
Genesis
XBOX
I've seen both a Playstation 1 and an XBOX crash :-)
I have had my ps2 freeze up on gta vice city and that was a brand new orginal version of the game :)
I've seen an Xbox crash... The guy had it in the back of his pickup truck, and the tailgate fell down while he was on the highway.
I've seen a 3D0 crash while playing "Battle Chess." It gave a red border "guru" style error and reset!!!! I was stunned. I didn't know a lot about the 3D0, but bought one at launch. That was the first time I knew that 3D0 was heavily Amiga-influenced.
Speaking of influence - the Epyx/Atari Lynx handheld crashed once (can't remember what game) and the screen was frozen, expect for the red and peach colored Amiga OS 1.x mouse pointer!
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OS4 on a G5 (which is 64bit, btw) would scream past x86, in GUI performance and most video applications. Of course I'm assuming that OS4 or OS5 will be ported to the G5 in the future. AmigaOS was designed for a low MHz 68000 processor. If the design is kept tight, then think of what it could do on a 64bit processor like the G5.
AMD64 and 970FX are about the same in terms of general performance e.g Cinebench 2003.
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Hammer wrote:
AMD64 and 970FX are about the same in terms of general performance e.g Cinebench 2003.
All this willy waving is well and good, but is there an existing amiga application, or any in development that can even tax the existing G4 sytems?
Don't get me wrong, faster hardware is better, but it seems to me that our existing developer base has yet to catch up with what existing PPC amiga/amiga-like systems are theoretically capable of.
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All this willy waving is well and good, but is there an existing amiga application, or any in development that can even tax the existing G4 sytems?
Any 3D rendering applications would tax any MPUs e.g. AOS's Cinema 4D R4.2.
PS; I don’t if AOS4’s primary media player can play Microsoft’s WMV-HD 1080p formats.
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Hammer wrote:
All this willy waving is well and good, but is there an existing amiga application, or any in development that can even tax the existing G4 sytems?
Any 3D rendering applications would tax any MPUs e.g. AOS's Cinema 4D R4.2.
Raytracers are not typical applications. They are compute bound a lot of the time, most applications are not. But of course, this is why you chose it as an example. I'm thinking of the typical "Why doens't my new 16GHz AMD x128 run word any faster?" experience ;-)
For C4D, an altivec optimised version would be a better first step. I'm sure users used to using a 680x0 raytracer (those that still do, that is) would be more than happy with the increase :-)
But then again, I'm sure most Cinema4D users moved to PC ages ago ;-)
PS; I don’t if AOS4’s primary media player can play Microsoft’s WMV-HD 1080p formats.
I don't know if sources for the required codec are available to even test it.
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Karlos wrote:
Hammer wrote:
All this willy waving is well and good, but is there an existing amiga application, or any in development that can even tax the existing G4 sytems?
Any 3D rendering applications would tax any MPUs e.g. AOS's Cinema 4D R4.2.
Raytracers are not typical applications.
So what's a "typical" Windows application that taxes the latest CPUs? I guess there's games, but I can't really think of applications (at least, ones that couldn't be similarly discounted as "not typical").
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lempkee wrote:
Antiriad:
yeah what a wise comment there :-) , just look how it went for BEos / Warp and all thoose other OS's that just had to go x86 and get wiped off the face of the earth.
Okay, I look at how BeOS was far more popular on x86 than it ever got on PPC.
Now, I don't know how profitable it was for them in comparison - but if they were raking in the money on PPC, then losing on x86, why did they stick with the latter?
The fact is that BeOS tried all three (their own PPC machine, Macs, x86 PCs), and failed on all three. That they tried x86 last before finally going bust doesn't prove anything.
As for bringing up OS2 Warp, what about all those OSs that went a non-x86 route and got wiped off the face of the earth (like, you know, AmigaOS, which is probably not used more than OS2 these days)?
sure they have a certain user amount still, sure they have alot of problems getting support for all their devices so naturally they just run XP or whatever to fullfill all their needs.
by saying it simple: there is no way to support x86 unless u support ALL the motherboards and geuss what...wont ever happen and if people thought the A1 bugs was annoying then you should check the x86 pc arena.
The A1 has graphics and PCI cards doesn't it? Will people go rushing to XP because AmigaOS doesn't support every single PCI card out there?
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leirbag28 wrote:
Whos talking about OLD custom chips? I certainly aint....im speaking of an entirely New Genration custom chipset as standard....................socketed so that they can be upgraded by the parent comapny Amiga Inc................just like the Enhanced Chipset and AGA................except they would be much more advanced................and you saving tons of cash cuz your just changing the chips......you can channel that extra cash in your pocket for the Chips................and Amiga Inc pumping more money into the 2nd set of More SUPER powered Custom Chips would justify it...............cuz every Amigan has the same machine!!!!
My computer has a "SUPER powered Custom Chip" plugged into a socket. It's called an AGP graphics card.
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I don't know about everyone else, but I don't want to run OS4, or OS3.9 on anything but a native Amiga. I also don't want to run Amiga Forever/WinUAE or any type of Amiga emulator on my PC. I also don't want to run any X86 emulators on my Amiga, nor do I want an 'Amiga' that shares any type of hardware similarity with any type of X86 PC. That goes for AmigaOne, et al. I don't mind using, as I see fit, any type of OS convention (such as right-click menus) on my Amiga, but, I just don't want to mix the two (Amiga and PC). For me, these platforms will always be kept separate - I have my reasons which will only start a fight here - and I will, in all probability never own, or use, any of the 'new' generation of Amiga 'thingies' that borrow too much from PC hardware platforms, or conventions. Going down that path (in my mind) is flirting constantly with 'watering down' what the Amiga was, and is, and what makes it special. So there! :ranting:
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@aardvark
@DavidF215
Lets get together and form and Amiga based company shall we? :-D
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mdwh2 wrote:
So what's a "typical" Windows application that taxes the latest CPUs? I guess there's games, but I can't really think of applications (at least, ones that couldn't be similarly discounted as "not typical").
Well, this is my point. This quest for faster and faster is driven mostly by a few types of application (eg games, or to be fair, raytracers etc) whilst the vast majority of software barely makes use of a fraction of the available power.
Which is why I find it amusing that people are complaining about amiga systems running on PPC's that are literally hundreds of times faster than their 680x0 predecessors and are still complaining that they aren't as fast as the latest x86 / x64.
When we have software capable of making full use of the existing systems, with any luck faster (G5, AMD64 whatever) amiga clones will be available for those with manhood insecurities :-)
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Karlos wrote:
mdwh2 wrote:
So what's a "typical" Windows application that taxes the latest CPUs? I guess there's games, but I can't really think of applications (at least, ones that couldn't be similarly discounted as "not typical").
Well, this is my point. This quest for faster and faster is driven mostly by a few types of application (eg games, or to be fair, raytracers etc) whilst the vast majority of software barely makes use of a fraction of the available power.
Which is why I find it amusing that people are complaining about amiga systems running on PPC's that are literally hundreds of times faster than their 680x0 predecessors and are still complaining that they aren't as fast as the latest x86 / x64.
When we have software capable of making full use of the existing systems, with any luck faster (G5, AMD64 whatever) amiga clones will be available for those with manhood insecurities :-)
Audio/video production has benefited from all this horsepower... a few years ago, I needed a studio full of hundreds of 1000s of pounds worth of equipment to do what can be done on a Laptop now! :-D
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bloodline wrote:
a few years ago, I needed a studio full of hundreds of 1000s of pounds worth of equipment to do what can be done on a Laptop now! :-D
With all that horsepower at your lap, just make sure you wear some milspec protection around the jewels :-P .
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@ Brother Bodie
Don't forget to exhort Bloodline to not forget it be of cermaic materiel
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:roflmao:
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Karlos wrote:
Well, this is my point. This quest for faster and faster is driven mostly by a few types of application (eg games, or to be fair, raytracers etc) whilst the vast majority of software barely makes use of a fraction of the available power.
Which is why I find it amusing that people are complaining about amiga systems running on PPC's that are literally hundreds of times faster than their 680x0 predecessors and are still complaining that they aren't as fast as the latest x86 / x64.
I agree in some sense; I'm more bothered about other things that pure CPU speed. But price is also an important factor, and x86 wins out there too (at least, in terms of PC versus proprietary box; I don't know how CPU prices compare). Paying loads extra for a G5 which is possibly faster than any x86 might attract some people, but few want to pay loads extra for something much slower. Also, having faster models available (be it G5 or x64) has the effect of making the older slower models come down in price.
And whilst "most people" might not be interested in things like 3D programs, video encoding, compiling and so on, we're not really talking about most people - the typical user who only uses the web and email is sadly unlikely to get a non-mainstream OS anytime soon.
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Bodie wrote:
bloodline wrote:
a few years ago, I needed a studio full of hundreds of 1000s of pounds worth of equipment to do what can be done on a Laptop now! :-D
With all that horsepower at your lap, just make sure you wear some milspec protection around the jewels :-P .
How about a milspec ceramic coated sock? ;-)
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leirbag28 wrote:
@aardvark
@DavidF215
Lets get together and form and Amiga based company shall we? :-D
Hey, don't tempt me. :-) I have a few ideas that are viable. Just need: (1) a salesman who can sell anything to anybody, (2) a biz manager that can raise funds easily, (3) a good programmer or two. I can manage the rest.
I believe I've posted this before on an Amiga forum, but for Amiga to re-emerge, I think that it needs to be sold as a solution package. For example, IBM sold OS/2 as a business solution; and often, IBM would provide ongoing maintenance on the System. IBM provided both the product and a related service for their product. The Amiga can be sold in a similar manner. Give me a production line of A1200 desktops (with a 68020/030 or G3/G4 processor), and I could still market it. About a year before Commodore went bankrupt, I had signed up to be an Amiga distributor. I was working on some of my business ideas when the news of Commodore troubles began to escalate; and when Commodore went bust, I was not happy.
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DavidF215 wrote:
Hey, don't tempt me. :-) I have a few ideas that are viable. Just need: (1) a salesman who can sell anything to anybody, (2) a biz manager that can raise funds easily, (3) a good programmer or two. I can manage the rest.
"or two"? In which decade were you thinking about releasing the x86 port?
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mdwh2 wrote:
Karlos wrote:
Hammer wrote:
All this willy waving is well and good, but is there an existing amiga application, or any in development that can even tax the existing G4 sytems?
Any 3D rendering applications would tax any MPUs e.g. AOS's Cinema 4D R4.2.
Raytracers are not typical applications.
So what's a "typical" Windows application that taxes the latest CPUs? I guess there's games, but I can't really think of applications (at least, ones that couldn't be similarly discounted as "not typical").
Note that, the "typical" Windows applications will be moving to Avalon.
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I agree in some sense; I'm more bothered about other things that pure CPU speed.
Why is everyone getting excited about the Mac Mini, then?
Perceived speed is more important than actual speed. To me, Windows "feels" lots faster than MacOS X, no matter how much better OSX may run under the hood. Well, OK, I use Windows 2000. That's about the fastest OS Microsoft ever made. XP still feels faster than OSX, though.
Unfortunately, very few people know how to program in a way that increases perceived speed. I doubt people ever will learn how to do it. Even if the OS vendors do, the application programmers will not.
So what's a "typical" Windows application that taxes the latest CPUs?
Encoders and decoders, for some. Wanna convert a whole ton of music to MP3's? Video editing and photo manipulation is also becomming a killer app for many computers. That needs number crunching. Not everyone is going to run word processors. The software market is evolving, too.
Most of the time the CPU sits around doing nothing, but home computers are still focused around bursts of peak performance.
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Waccoon wrote:
I agree in some sense; I'm more bothered about other things that pure CPU speed.
Why is everyone getting excited about the Mac Mini, then?
Presumably either its low cost or small size. I didn't think anyone was excited because it's the fastest computer in existance.
So what's a "typical" Windows application that taxes the latest CPUs?
Encoders and decoders, for some. Wanna convert a whole ton of music to MP3's? Video editing and photo manipulation is also becomming a killer app for many computers.
And aren't mp3 encoders/decoders etc available for AmigaOS too? That's my point.
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Presumably either its low cost or small size. I didn't think anyone was excited because it's the fastest computer in existance.
In the threads about AmigaOne vs Mac Mini, speed seems to be the dominant issue. People are willing to pay a lot for a new platform, but not at the performance the AmigaOne delivers.
And aren't mp3 encoders/decoders etc available for AmigaOS too? That's my point.
Aren't they for 486's and SPARC and Alpha, too? What's your point?
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@DavidF215
David, I think that would work, I have a friend who sells Video Toasters for their solutions.and there definitely is still a market for A1200. Just dont sell them as PC replacements but as dedicated machines for a certain task.................as a Character generator for instance.or as you very well said.
But if I ever get into the Amiga business it is with the Sole goal of removing PC's off the face of the earth........I'm not kidding...................I have a plan that I really believe will work if God permits.
This plan will free people from the Bondage of having to be concerned that they need to buy a new computer again because theirs is too slow............not only that but they will freely choose AmigaOS.
I wont mention the details but.............
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@leirbag
I'd like to wish you the best of luck with that buisness plan.
However, as a responsible adult, I feel I should instead warn you (as I believe Bloodline already has), to keep a safe distance from the microwave whilst it is operational.
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I think it was more than just a microwave, probably something like the reactor chamber of Chernobyl....
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@Karlos
"However, as a responsible adult, I feel I should instead warn you (as I believe Bloodline already has), to keep a safe distance from the microwave whilst it is operational."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Actually thats how I got some of my Ideas..........I remember it Vividly.............I was Microwaving some Cambell's Soup and while waiting I sat close to the Microwave......then I had a Vision! (My head was tingling at the time....dont know why)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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:lol:
I never tried their "Cream of Magic Mushroom" variety before. What's it like?
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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I have a plan that I really believe will work if God permits.
Given the number of bugs on Earth, I'd say God uses Windows.
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Waccoon wrote:
I have a plan that I really believe will work if God permits.
Given the number of bugs on Earth, I'd say God uses Windows.
:lol:
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We don't need custom chips or great graphics chipsets or even a speedy motherboard if we get Cell tech on a PowerPC chip in an Amiga. It won't work in a PC(at least for a while), so it'll be between PPC platforms like the Amiga and Apple, and with a bit of luck we could be the first desktop system to utilise it. Cell tech is probably going to blow us away and even the latest 3d Graphics cards will have a hard time catching up. We're talking raytraced realtime graphics now.
I once said AmigaOS should be ported to XBox2....well, methinks XBox2 is in for a rather nasty surprise when PS3 featuring cell tech comes out.... Port AmigaOS to PS3 maybe...but if the cell tech is on a PPC chip...then we can get back in the game....and the rest of the A1 mobo will make no difference.
Then all we need to do is stack our uA1s and.....We'll take over the world... MWAHAHAHA!!! Wait....If my TV has a Cell PPC chip on it.....and my PDA....and my Cell/Mobile phone....and my Microwave oven......Errr...and its driven by my Amiga.....Then that's a lot of extra processing power!!! Hey, if its all connected then we very well could take over the world literally.....But maybe I shouldn't stand too close to the microwave either.
Ok. Going back to my happy place now. (http://64.33.47.100/images/a1000anim.gif)
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Waccoon wrote:
Presumably either its low cost or small size. I didn't think anyone was excited because it's the fastest computer in existance.
In the threads about AmigaOne vs Mac Mini, speed seems to be the dominant issue. People are willing to pay a lot for a new platform, but not at the performance the AmigaOne delivers.
Good speed for its price, which is exactly what I'm saying - and indeed anyway, I was the one saying that speed was important, in response to someone saying that it wasn't important. "People are willing to pay a lot for a new platform, but not at the performance the AmigaOne delivers" is basically exactly what I said a few posts ago when I said "Paying loads extra for a G5 which is possibly faster than any x86 might attract some people, but few want to pay loads extra for something much slower", so I do not think we are in disagreement here.
I then added that "I agree in some sense; I'm more bothered about other things that pure CPU speed." Which is true. Even if other people are bothered about having the fastest thing available irrespective of cost (and I'm not sure that interest in the Mac Mini indicates that), that doesn't affect what *I* am concerned with.
And aren't mp3 encoders/decoders etc available for AmigaOS too? That's my point.
Aren't they for 486's and SPARC and Alpha, too? What's your point?
The original claim was that there is nothing on AmigaOS that takes advantage of fast CPUs. If encoders/decoders are an example of something that "takes advantage of fast CPUs", then these *are* available on AmigaOS. Repeating that they are available on other platforms is beside the point, as I never claimed that 486s, Sparcs etc have nothing to tax their CPUs.
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mikeymike wrote:
DavidF215 wrote:
Hey, don't tempt me. :-) I have a few ideas that are viable. Just need: (1) a salesman who can sell anything to anybody, (2) a biz manager that can raise funds easily, (3) a good programmer or two. I can manage the rest.
"or two"? In which decade were you thinking about releasing the x86 port?
I'm not talking about the port. If you would have read my previous post, you would know that I think an x86 port does not make business sense.
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leirbag28 wrote:
@DavidF215
David, I think that would work, I have a friend who sells Video Toasters for their solutions.and there definitely is still a market for A1200. Just dont sell them as PC replacements but as dedicated machines for a certain task.................as a Character generator for instance.or as you very well said.
Yes. Exactly. The VT is a great example of my idea for Amiga. And, btw, we need something to replace the VT for A1.
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DavidF215 wrote:
leirbag28 wrote:
@DavidF215
David, I think that would work, I have a friend who sells Video Toasters for their solutions.and there definitely is still a market for A1200. Just dont sell them as PC replacements but as dedicated machines for a certain task.................as a Character generator for instance.or as you very well said.
Yes. Exactly. The VT is a great example of my idea for Amiga. And, btw, we need something to replace the VT for A1.
Firewire and decent software... infact WindowsXP comes with basic Movie making/edting software... Which I can use when I connect my mates camcorder via the firewire to my PC...
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@bloodline
"Firewire and decent software... infact WindowsXP comes with basic Movie making/edting software... Which I can use when I connect my mates camcorder via the firewire to my PC..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The same Firewire and Decent software Would work Ten times better on a New G4 A1........you seem pretty happy with your PC...............then you dont really need anything from the Amiga world.
Personally I am not satisfied and have never been with a PC...it is always dissapointing. Especially when I find my Classic 68030 Amiga Outperforming it in many ways............real real sad! I just imagine a Modern Amiga at comparable level with a PC............it would destroy it.
Anyway, PC's are about manking money..........so you get constantly ripped off.............this is also happening in the Amiga world but 10 fold..................I dont believe in that............a New Amiga should be your All In One do it All with Super high grade chips (yet still replacable incase they die)
We are so willing to pay much more for our Amigas because of the pleasure we get from running it on Amiga......because it amazes us that despite how old it was...............it still can do many modern things...........and do it nicely in an AmigaOS way.
AmigaOS (in a modern incarnation) really is the better OS amongst Windows and MacOS.......no one can ever tell me otherwise.
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The same Firewire and Decent software Would work Ten times better on a New G4 A1
Clock for clock it would work much the same. Except the Athlon64 is cheaper (more bang per buck).
you seem pretty happy with your PC
With my Athlon64...? You bet, it's great!
then you dont really need anything from the Amiga world.
Not True! Amiga is my History, it's my world. Unfortunatly my view of the amiga future doesn't involve the AmigaONE.
My Classic Amigas, UAE and AROS give me all the Amiga joy I need.
Especially when I find my Classic 68030 Amiga Outperforming it in many ways
I can only think of one area where your Classic amiga outperforms a modern PC... in the style department...
I just imagine a Modern Amiga at comparable level with a PC............it would destroy it
Not really... It would just have less software.
a New Amiga should be your All In One do it All with Super high grade chips (yet still replacable incase they die)
Yeah, that's a good idea... in fact why not put the "Super high grade chips" on separate boards with their own support system and attach them to the CPU using a highspeed serial link... like PCI-Express socket on an HyperTransport bus... that way you can replace them if they die... hell, you could even replace them if you just wanted a faster/better version.
AmigaOS (in a modern incarnation) really is the better OS amongst Windows and MacOS.......no one can ever tell me otherwise.
Yeah, yeah, we all like AmigaOS, that's why we're here... but don't fool yourself. It's a hobby OS, fun... not better, just more fun. And strangly comforting.
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@bloodline
Firewire and decent software... infact WindowsXP comes with basic Movie making/edting software... Which I can use when I connect my mates camcorder via the firewire to my PC...
I use XP and Movie Maker for editing too now. AmigaOS4 needs native Firewire support and DV software so I can have a good reason to buy an AmigaOne.
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DavidF215 wrote:
@bloodline
Firewire and decent software... infact WindowsXP comes with basic Movie making/edting software... Which I can use when I connect my mates camcorder via the firewire to my PC...
I use XP and Movie Maker for editing too now. AmigaOS4 needs native Firewire support and DV software so I can have a good reason to buy an AmigaOne.
Ok, I'm missing something... Why do you think the Amiga is comercialy viable?
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BigBenAussie wrote:
We don't need custom chips or great graphics chipsets or even a speedy motherboard if we get Cell tech on a PowerPC chip in an Amiga. It won't work in a PC(at least for a while), so it'll be between PPC platforms like the Amiga and Apple, and with a bit of luck we could be the first desktop system to utilise it. Cell tech is probably going to blow us away and even the latest 3d Graphics cards will have a hard time catching up. We're talking raytraced realtime graphics now.
I once said AmigaOS should be ported to XBox2....well, methinks XBox2 is in for a rather nasty surprise when PS3 featuring cell tech comes out.... Port AmigaOS to PS3 maybe...but if the cell tech is on a PPC chip...then we can get back in the game....and the rest of the A1 mobo will make no difference.
Then all we need to do is stack our uA1s and.....We'll take over the world... MWAHAHAHA!!! Wait....If my TV has a Cell PPC chip on it.....and my PDA....and my Cell/Mobile phone....and my Microwave oven......Errr...and its driven by my Amiga.....Then that's a lot of extra processing power!!! Hey, if its all connected then we very well could take over the world literally.....But maybe I shouldn't stand too close to the microwave either.
Okay maybe I am getting a little old here, but I remember being on some board a few years ago and some dude was up on there promoting a "transputer" and how it's processing power was gonna make the Amiga the most powerful computing platform on the earth.. They ended up not having a market and their wild claims only came to fruition on the Atari ST..
Also, what happened with cellular technology on IRIX (SGI's Unix).. Well it's kinda disappeared off the radar screen..
Moral of the Story: Don't get hyped about a technology until you see it making an industry impact.. Chances are all you will be left with is hype..
Now talk about useable technology.. Does the Amiga have a PCI-Express motherboard with dual SLI graphics cards.. Probably not.. But I do hear AROS runs on it..
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Okay maybe I am getting a little old here, but I remember being on some board a few years ago and some dude was up on there promoting a "transputer" and how it's processing power was gonna make the Amiga the most powerful computing platform on the earth.. They ended up not having a market and their wild claims only came to fruition on the Atari ST..
Actually the Transputer thing is a great example, which is similar to the Cell hype.
I rather like the transputer idea, but it wasa miserable failure for lots of reasons. But I've never forgoten it and neither did the Chip designers... what we are seeing now with modern CPU's are features of these old failed experiments finding a place in the computing mainstream... one idea a did love about the Transputer was the idea of lots of serial links rather than a single parallel bus... and look... we now have a hyper transport technology and PCI-Express... great stuff!!
May
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@bloodline
"Yeah, yeah, we all like AmigaOS, that's why we're here... but don't fool yourself. It's a hobby OS, fun... not better, just more fun. And strangly comforting."
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AmigaOS just a hobby OS? maybe............infact compared to Todays modern OS's it Totally sucks!
.........................But I am not talking about Amigas and its OS in the curent state it is.....but rather what it could be and should be if it were modernized correctly...........AmigaOS has a small footprint.............that alone will allow applications to run much faster than an equally competitive Windows or Mac machine..............this is what I am talking about.......................having the same specs and all 3 machines...yet Amiga always coming out on Top as it did back in the days of 386's and 486's..even Pentiums I and II's...............my 68030 outperformed them Real bad in many ways!
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@bloodline
Ok, I'm missing something... Why do you think the Amiga is comercialy viable?
I've already mentioned some viabilities in a previous reply (page 7 or 8, I think).
@leirbag28
I agree. It's a "hobby" OS due to the lack up updates. Which leads me to ask: Why didn't Amiga, Inc update the A1200/A4000 mobo with USB/Firewall/etc and update AmigaOS with WarpOS/PPC enhancements. Get the entire platform updated and machines in production, then switch to full PPC in a later version of OS4? I'm guessing the way they did it was thought to be best.
So much potential, so little resources
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Antiriad wrote:
I was just wondering why the AmigaOS 4.0 won't be released for x86 Platforms which make more than %90 of PCs around the world? Why do you think linux is gaining on the Windows OS?
I do not think OS 4.0 will survive for too long!!!!
Just my thoughts....
Just how long do you think it would survive in the MS sandbox?
It would be dead in minutes. Who in their right mind would waste time developing for an x86 version of OS4 when they may as well just release it for Windows.
Why would anyone buy anything for the x86 version of OS4, when they can buy almost anything at the local pc superstore, today. Not 18 months from now.
People who keep whining on about this x86 issue just don't see the big picture.
So an A1 costs more than a low end PC. Well, that's the price of admission. Don't like the price? Well, you are not obligated to buy a ticket.
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What exactly is great about the amiga custom chips? Slow and Low resolutions, poor sound quality, slow floppy...i think why the chips were good was because the architecture as a whole meant the chips could function independantly of the cpu, as happens with modern PC GPU's. I have an A4000 with a CV64 and a Prelude and a zorro serial and parallel port and a Zorro IDE interface and a cyberstorm 060: i use none of the original custom chips including the 3.1 ROM and i would never go back to a vanilla A1200 except to play games.
The advantage of custom chips is more uniformity in the code that needs to be written to make the computer do something and hence more stability. the disadvantage is obsalence and even slower hardware progress,
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terminator wrote:
Just how long do you think it would survive in the MS sandbox?
It would be dead in minutes. Who in their right mind would waste time developing for an x86 version of OS4 when they may as well just release it for Windows.
Why would anyone buy anything for the x86 version of OS4, when they can buy almost anything at the local pc superstore, today. Not 18 months from now.
Replace "x86" with "PPC" in what you wrote, and the same points apply.
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mdwh2: The original claim was that there is nothing on AmigaOS that takes advantage of fast CPUs.
So, it's perfectly acceptable to put in slow CPUs?
Just because AmigaOS has snappy screen refreshes doesn't mean consumers will tolerate low performance. The reason why I mentioned codecs is because they are VERY CPU intensive and will not get a huge boost in performance due to the simplistic and unstable design of AmigaOS. If you want to spend forever copying files from folder A to folder B, moving a web browser across the screen, or playing cheezy 2D puzzle games in a window, then that's fine. But, most people living in the modern era want music, videos, multimedia, games... and that stuff needs lots of raw power that the current Amigas don't offer.
Nobody NEEDS a high performance CPU and graphics card, but if some other company does offer it, and Amiga doesn't, then it should be obvious what people will buy. If people have a craving for underpowered hardware and vertical monopolization, they don't need Amiga... they already have Apple.
At some point, people thought the Atari Jaguar was fine because it had great 2D graphics, a superbly elegant architecture, was built by IBM, and had a budget price. It didn't "need" a high performance CGI board and 3D graphics...
...of course, it was completely trampled by the PlayStation. Sega's haphazard Saturn was, too, and the N64 wasn't exactly a super machine, either.
You could easily argue that game consoles don't "need" the capacity of a CD-ROM when you can write more intelligent code and use a cart, instead. That certainly didn't work in Nintendo's favor, now did it?
Architecture is irrelevant. It all boils down to value.
Bloodline: I rather like the transputer idea, but it was a miserable failure for lots of reasons.
Namely, good compilers didn't exist, OSes didn't support multithreading, and doing it yourself was a huge pain. The world just wasn't ready for super-computer type code on a home computer.
It really all has to do more with coding practices than hardware. I sure hope Sony's dev tools for the PS3 don't suck anywhere near as bad as they did on the PS2.
terminator: Just how long do you think it would survive in the MS sandbox?
Or anywhere else? People need to stop kidding themselves. Whether Amiga uses x86, PPC, or something else, Microsoft isn't just going to disappear. We're in Microsoft's sandbox no matter what hardware we use.
Of course, if we use PPC, we're in Microsoft's sandbox, with Apple ready to take away our pail and shovel.
terminator: People who keep whining on about this x86 issue just don't see the big picture.
Namely, that you obviously can't build an x86 system just for AmigaOS that won't run Windows. The CPU is, of course, the only thing that matters in a computer. The Mac is a completely original architecture that has nothing in common with those PCs and their evil, evil open standards. Anyone who disagrees obviously has no idea what a brilliant idea it is to sell underpowered hardware for huge sums of money.
Many, many companies use the hard-a**ed business model Amiga uses, and they regularly go out of business. People just don't learn.
terminator: So an A1 costs more than a low end PC. Well, that's the price of admission. Don't like the price? Well, you are not obligated to buy a ticket.
Good point, but it seems a lot of Amiga users don't like the price of admission, either. It wouldn't be so high if Amiga's business model involved branching out into new markets and focusing on software and killer apps, instead of trying to resell buggy, expensive hardware to die-hards just so they can run software that already runs on everything else: Linux.
stefcep: I have an A4000 with a CV64 and a Prelude and a zorro serial and parallel port and a Zorro IDE interface and a cyberstorm 060: i use none of the original custom chips including the 3.1 ROM and i would never go back to a vanilla A1200 except to play games.
Yup. Isn't it ironic that the Amiga was based on the idea of coprocessors, but most post-Commodore software does everything on the CPU because the classic Amiga architecture is too damn old and slow?
And what is it with people complaining that an ATI GPU and an nVidia southbridge is not good enough? This is the height of technology. If you've got a bone to pick, try going after the insanely simplistic BIOS, ill-designed bootloaders, and Windows. Of those three issues, the AmigaOne only solves one. Oh yeah, and they're all software issues, too, so the hardware doesn't matter.
Think about it. Whatever happened to the Early Startup Screen, and being able to boot off any device -- even RAM? That's one thing I really miss about my A1200 that I wish my PC could handle.
But, no, screw the software. PPC alone will obviously solve all our problems.
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Waccoon wrote:
Bloodline: I rather like the transputer idea, but it was a miserable failure for lots of reasons.
Namely, good compilers didn't exist, OSes didn't support multithreading, and doing it yourself was a huge pain. The world just wasn't ready for super-computer type code on a home computer.
It really all has to do more with coding practices than hardware. I sure hope Sony's dev tools for the PS3 don't suck anywhere near as bad as they did on the PS2.
Technology also had quite a lot to do with it... For the Transputer idea to work you needed several chips (ie more than one), but each Transputer chip cost around $800 and performed far worse on it's own than the $100-$200 68030 and 386 of the same era.
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Can an A1 do the basics like....
browse the net,
rip a cd
play a dvd,
play mp3s,
play divXs,
play 3d games,
do wordprocessing?
Even a base uA1 with no expansion should be able to do that without raising a sweat.....What else could you want to do?
Surely, the speed can't be bad enough for me to notice a difference between an A1 and a high end PC. Am I really going to notice a computational speed difference? I really don't think so..
Although the G3 without Altivec has me worried when it comes to DVD playback. Is it an issue?
Ok. Going back to my happy place now. (http://64.33.47.100/images/a1000anim.gif)
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BigBenAussie wrote:
Surely, the speed can't be bad enough for me to notice a difference between an A1 and a high end PC. Am I really going to notice a computational speed difference?
Get yourself a Cheap high end PC... or at least borrow one, before you ask that question.
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BigBenAussie wrote:
Although the G3 without Altivec has me worried when it comes to DVD playback. Is it an issue?
No, Apple just brainwashed you in the days when clock speeds were low. :-) A 300MHz G3 or similar grade of x86 should be able to handle playback acceptably (hardware MPEG never hurts)... You'll notice the computational hit while rendering or encoding, but that's to be expected, and it may not be as bad as you think.
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Speaking of Apple, Apple lowered their prices on Mac Mini optional hardware (http://www.macnn.com/articles/05/01/25/lower.mac.mini.bto.pricing/).
Dammy
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mdwh2 wrote:
terminator wrote:
Just how long do you think it would survive in the MS sandbox?
It would be dead in minutes. Who in their right mind would waste time developing for an x86 version of OS4 when they may as well just release it for Windows.
Why would anyone buy anything for the x86 version of OS4, when they can buy almost anything at the local pc superstore, today. Not 18 months from now.
Replace "x86" with "PPC" in what you wrote, and the same points apply.
Would you wait 2 years to buy an Amiga version of a game, and pay $75 for it, when you can buy the windows version right now for $50?
If you answered yes, would you be willing to buy that title for $75 in 2 years, instead of buying the older, now discounted Windows version, which sells on the next rack for $30?
AmigaOS cannot coexist on the wintel platform with windows. Windows will trump everything. MS has annihilated every other operating system that tried to exist in their sphere. Those who tried to make money from an alternate OS in that ecosystem were eliminated.
(Linux is an exception, it isn't a commercial product, nor does it really have any traction outside of a few specialized zones. It costs nothing but your time to install, so it's no big loss if you don't use it.)
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Waccoon wrote:
terminator: Just how long do you think it would survive in the MS sandbox?
Or anywhere else? People need to stop kidding themselves. Whether Amiga uses x86, PPC, or something else, Microsoft isn't just going to disappear. We're in Microsoft's sandbox no matter what hardware we use.
Of course, if we use PPC, we're in Microsoft's sandbox, with Apple ready to take away our pail and shovel.
When you're on PPC you are not in the MS sandbox. They dominate x86. Do you think bill gates lays awake a night worrying about Apple's sales?
No, he could care less. All he is interested is selling another copy of Windows. The MacOS doesn't run on x86, therefore it is irrelevant.
terminator: People who keep whining on about this x86 issue just don't see the big picture.
Namely, that you obviously can't build an x86 system just for AmigaOS that won't run Windows. The CPU is, of course, the only thing that matters in a computer. The Mac is a completely original architecture that has nothing in common with those PCs and their evil, evil open standards. Anyone who disagrees obviously has no idea what a brilliant idea it is to sell underpowered hardware for huge sums of money.
Many, many companies use the hard-a**ed business model Amiga uses, and they regularly go out of business. People just don't learn.[/quote]
The CPU is everything right?
So I should be able to run my PET programs on an Apple ][. Right? Or a VIC-20?
The CPU is only one part of a larger system. There are issues like the memory mapping, I/O systems, etc. Hence, the Apple ][, VIC-20, C-64, and even the PET, while running with a 6502 processor, are not compatible.
Even if you could add the UBoot to a PowerMac, it wouldn't work because you don't know anything about the system architecture. And the people who do know are not telling. If they wouldn't tell Be, what exactly are Hyperion's chances?
terminator: So an A1 costs more than a low end PC. Well, that's the price of admission. Don't like the price? Well, you are not obligated to buy a ticket.
Good point, but it seems a lot of Amiga users don't like the price of admission, either. It wouldn't be so high if Amiga's business model involved branching out into new markets and focusing on software and killer apps, instead of trying to resell buggy, expensive hardware to die-hards just so they can run software that already runs on everything else: Linux.[/quote]
What separates the men from the boys is the cost of their toys.
There isn't the time or the space here for an economics lesson either.
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terminator wrote:
Just how long do you think it would survive in the MS sandbox?
It would be dead in minutes. Who in their right mind would waste time developing for an x86 version of OS4 when they may as well just release it for Windows.
Why would anyone buy anything for the x86 version of OS4, when they can buy almost anything at the local pc superstore, today. Not 18 months from now.
People who keep whining on about this x86 issue just don't see the big picture.
So an A1 costs more than a low end PC. Well, that's the price of admission. Don't like the price? Well, you are not obligated to buy a ticket.
I simply don't believe this, for several reasons..
1) the Apple Mac and MacOS (in it's various problems) have been around and continue to live in the face of overwhelming Windows competition... Mac games most of the times come out later than windows, but still sell profitably.
2) The original Amiga 1000 sold a ton of machines before the "low cost" version came out (i.e. the A500) and was positioned very well as a business and creative home solution and it was priced well above the Apple's and IBMs of the time. It wasn't until Atari with the ST came out and started UNDERCUTTING them that they released the A500..
3) Apple must think there is a market still there on the low end too, to release a "new" low end machine..
4) Why did people buy Amiga software in the first place over the other machines out there? It probably wasn't the revolutionary market. You can have the best hardware in the world and it won't sell without software behind it.. The simple fact is that it sold because of what the software let the machine do. Small time developers who weren't writing for the platforms of the day were gravitating towards it.. This could happen again, if the OS can still generate some unique software.
5)Did you ever buy Amiga software in anywhere but a mail order or a place that sold software for other machines? Probably not.. There is a reason for this..
I think people would look for an alternative platform that's different from what they use at work, if the software was unique enough in a solution.. Also I think if AmigaOS ran on standard hardware, people might see it as a good alternative (provided the software support was there, which could happen over time). While people don't wanna change their hardware (that's why they may not be an A1) they are more likely to change their software if it works better..
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terminator wrote:
mdwh2 wrote:
terminator wrote:
Just how long do you think it would survive in the MS sandbox?
It would be dead in minutes. Who in their right mind would waste time developing for an x86 version of OS4 when they may as well just release it for Windows.
Why would anyone buy anything for the x86 version of OS4, when they can buy almost anything at the local pc superstore, today. Not 18 months from now.
Replace "x86" with "PPC" in what you wrote, and the same points apply.
Would you wait 2 years to buy an Amiga version of a game, and pay $75 for it, when you can buy the windows version right now for $50?
If you answered yes, would you be willing to buy that title for $75 in 2 years, instead of buying the older, now discounted Windows version, which sells on the next rack for $30?
AmigaOS cannot coexist on the wintel platform with windows. Windows will trump everything. MS has annihilated every other operating system that tried to exist in their sphere. Those who tried to make money from an alternate OS in that ecosystem were eliminated.
Your argument is totally irelevent.
You are saying that an Amiga owner would buy their Amiga and if it were not for the fact that their harware is obsolete and incompatible, they would drop AmigaOS as soon as they got it home... :roll: That's a lot of faith you have in AmigaOS, users have to be FORCED to use it.
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Waccoon wrote:
mdwh2: The original claim was that there is nothing on AmigaOS that takes advantage of fast CPUs.
So, it's perfectly acceptable to put in slow CPUs?
Note I wasn't the one making that claim, I was the one arguing against it. I generally agree with what you write here.
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terminator wrote:
Would you wait 2 years to buy an Amiga version of a game, and pay $75 for it, when you can buy the windows version right now for $50?
If I have a PC running Windows, I wouldn't wait. That applies whether the Amiga is on x86 *or PPC*.
If I don't have a PC running Windows, and I went out and bought an x86 PC to run AmigaOS x86, then it's unlikely that I would spend a load of money more on an OS, and then put up with all the hassles with dual booting.
Maybe yes, if I was that bothered about the game. But then in the scenario of a PPC Amiga, if I was that bothered about games I'd buy a separate Windows PC or console, buy games for that instead of the Amiga, *and* have the benefit that I don't have to faff about with dual booting.
AmigaOS cannot coexist on the wintel platform with windows. Windows will trump everything. MS has annihilated every other operating system that tried to exist in their sphere. Those who tried to make money from an alternate OS in that ecosystem were eliminated.
(Linux is an exception, it isn't a commercial product, nor does it really have any traction outside of a few specialized zones. It costs nothing but your time to install, so it's no big loss if you don't use it.)
Yes but there is commercial software available for it, and contrary to what you claim, people do buy Linux versions of things.
Ask yourself why is there so much interest in WINE to run Windows-only software, if it'd be so easy to reboot into Windows?
Microsoft have come out with the most popular OS not just in x86, but on computing as a whole. There exist two vaguely mainstream but still minority OSs, one of which is x86 and one is PPC. So I fail to see how we can say that nothing can survive on x86, but it's easy on PPC.
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terminator wrote:
When you're on PPC you are not in the MS sandbox. They dominate x86. Do you think bill gates lays awake a night worrying about Apple's sales?
If he doesn't, it's because they aren't enough as a threat.
If people start moving from PCs to Macs in large enough numbers, he most certainly will lay awake worrying.
No, he could care less. All he is interested is selling another copy of Windows. The MacOS doesn't run on x86, therefore it is irrelevant.
That would be why Microsoft are trying to get Windows running on every single (non-x86) portable/mobile device out there.
Microsoft most certainly do care about more than the PC, especially since the market is reaching stagnation point (most people who want a PC already have one, and Windows is good enough for most people), and the future of computing is bound to include lots of non-x86 PC devices that still need an OS.
terminator: So an A1 costs more than a low end PC. Well, that's the price of admission. Don't like the price? Well, you are not obligated to buy a ticket.
Good point, but it seems a lot of Amiga users don't like the price of admission, either. It wouldn't be so high if Amiga's business model involved branching out into new markets and focusing on software and killer apps, instead of trying to resell buggy, expensive hardware to die-hards just so they can run software that already runs on everything else: Linux.
What separates the men from the boys is the cost of their toys.
There isn't the time or the space here for an economics lesson either.
So you are quite okay that PPC may mean less users due to cost, indeed you thing that's a good thing?
But on the other hand, you are against x86 because you think it will mean less users?
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What are people's reasons for buying / using Amiga anyway?
I mean, until you can define that, what the computer's niche or attaction is, how can you begin to define what is best hardware wise?
For me personally I use the amiga simply because I enjoy it. I get far more fun out of it than windows, linux and macos put together. They have their unique strengths, but to me, the rest are monolithic, dull, souless and uninteresting. OK, linux is probably the best of a bad bunch there.
I have to work with these systems. When I come home, if I want to have some fun with a computer, I will fire up my amiga. It is that simple. I guess that makes it an enthusiast machine in my case. If it has gone PPC, so be it. I'm not complaining - I get a fat kick out of it already and have already paid a lot for the pleasure over the years. This is true of any "vice" if you think about it. If I need to upgrade to a PPC machine to continue my indulgence and that costs me more, then for the sake of my personal enjoyment I will do so. If it had gone x86, then great, I would have saved money too. Still, who can put a price on enjoyment?
If I want cheap and fast for work, I'll buy the bits and make a PC.
I appreciate that this is not a sentiment shared by everybody, so what about you lot?
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terminator: AmigaOS cannot coexist on the wintel platform with windows.
It's unfair to call it Wintel, because there are hundreds of OSes that run on x86. Microsoft has a say in how the technologies are developed (they even play a big part in WC3 standards), but they don't own a patent on PC architecture and cannot control it completely.
Even XBox is not going to be a PC architecture, anymore. Microsoft doesn't like to limit themselves to one platform, which is WHY they have been so successful, and others have failed.
As mdwh2 pointed out, Microsoft is expanding to the hand-held market, much of which does not use x86.
When you're on PPC you are not in the MS sandbox.
The whole PC market is Microsoft's sandbox, as is everyone else's. Competition is not going to die no matter what Amiga releases. That's life.
terminator: They dominate x86. Do you think bill gates lays awake a night worrying about Apple's sales?
Absolutetly. Bill's concern is to keep Apple from getting too large, but without Apple Microsoft would be a complete monopoly and the government would have to break up the company. It's in Microsoft's best interest to keep Apple alive, which is why they invested so much money into Apple and write lots of software for the platform.
terminator: MS has annihilated every other operating system that tried to exist in their sphere.
It's arguable that they killed themselves. Note that today, there's only really two operating systems: Windows and UNIX. Everyone that has tried to make a new non-UNIX has died. Everyone that had a proprietary system died after PC clones started gaining momentum. Some even died before.
Besides, the most promising computers based on proprietary hardware, Amiga and Atari, were infamous for terrible management. Apple almost went bankrupt, too, before Jobs took over the company and repackaged everything in pretty-looking cases, which nobody in the PC market had done before (or at least not very well).
terminator: The CPU is everything right?
Nice to know you're as sharp at sarcasm as you are at economics. :-)
terminator: There isn't the time or the space here for an economics lesson either.
Of course, seeing how that's only the biggest problem with Amiga's plan for the future...
DonnyEMU: Mac games most of the times come out later than windows, but still sell profitably.
Yup. It still bugs me that there isn't more effort going into Mac software. The market is smaller, but there's also less competition so it IS profitable.
DonnyEMU: It wasn't until Atari with the ST came out and started UNDERCUTTING them that they released the A500.
Yup. I recall that the AtariST was very cheap for the CPU power and memory it gave you, even if it couldn't compete with Amiga at a graphics level.
DonnyEMU: Why did people buy Amiga software in the first place over the other machines out there? It probably wasn't the revolutionary market.
The Amiga was a fun computer when all the PC did was beep, and all the Mac did was leave no memory left over to do anything useful.
Today, PC's are a lot more fun, and if you want to really hack and code, there's Linux. Amiga cannot afford to use 1980 marketing tactics, anymore.
DonnnyEMU: Did you ever buy Amiga software in anywhere but a mail order or a place that sold software for other machines? Probably not.. There is a reason for this..
I used to buy my Amiga software from The Memory Location, which had PC's and Macs selling side-by-side. Of course, that was back in 1989.
[EDIT: PCs and Amigas, I meant. When I asked a sales rep why they didn't sell Macs, they told me they didn't see the point with Amiga around. After I got my A1200, they stopped selling Amigas, and they started selling Macs. They lived for maybe another two years before closing. Too bad. They were nice people, and was the last store I've ever visited where they allowed you to open boxed software and try it out in the store!]
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As always, this topic copletely blew up once it was started. But, reading it this time got me thinking. Now hear me out on this...what if there was a way to make a sort of IDE and /or SATA "dongle" for AOS4 that you could buy with it to allow OS4 (if ported to say the Mac hardware) to have:
1. The ability to boot off an AmigaOS bootable CD/DVD
2. An "Early Startup" menu
3. The ability to boot OS4 from a harddrive in the system.
4. The ability to detect other partitions/drives for easy dual booting of MacOS X, or Linux for PPC.
Say it was something like a 3.5in drive form factor, with some small amount of hardware and the Amiga protected "rom" onboard that would only allow you to launch AmigaOS from any device IF this dongle was installed. This would / could allow Amiga and H&P the "security" against piracy that they want without having to have a custom A1 motherboard to buy. Certainly it would be cheaper to build and buy this small device with OS4 than to go out and get a full A1 when I already have a solid and speedy G5 Mac. The device could be completely sealed (as in a solid block) so that tampering would be difficult, and the ability to flash it could be locked out unless you have a specific program to upload a protected rom update to it. (Heck, it could even have like 512 meg - 1gig of "unprotected space" for a speedy flash drive to boot off of as a system drive - but I would like the ability to use OS4 first and foremost.)
I dunno...thinking about it, it sounds nice to me to think that then I could actually buy and support Amiga / H&P with my current setup, not to mention in a 2.5in form it could be used (possibly depending on size) in something like a Mac Mini. This would keep H&P from having to support so many different x86 motherboards and hardware, but still allow a cheaper jump into the Amiga again with hardware that out classes the AmigaONE already. Its just an idea. :-D (and I have nothing against the x86 or the AmigaONE - My PC sits next to my Mac, and I only wish I could afford an A1)
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When you're on PPC you are not in the MS sandbox
In the past, Microsoft (with Motorola's funding) has promoted MS Windows NT 4.0 PowerPC edition. PowerPC’s failing in the desktop market is due to PPC's desktop infrastructure issues. Microsoft can’t fix PPC’s fundamental issues.
IF we have AMD running Freescale; the results would have been different. AMD would have SledgeHammer style PowerPC with 64bit extensions which doesn’t compromised with 7447A’s desktop application compatibility. Then they will apply Geode's low power processes for embedded deployments but without altering the ISA compatibility**.
**X86’s standard for uncompromised legacy support.
Freescale's screwing with MPC7447A's compatibility with e500 core(MPC8548E) is unacceptable in desktop PC market e.g. FPU opcodes. Freescale hasn’t learnt anything from mucking around with various 68K compatibility.
The minor compatibility difference between 750FX and 750GX is also an issue that X86 desktop ISVs would not tolerate.
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JetFireDX: Say it was something like a 3.5in drive form factor, with some small amount of hardware and the Amiga protected "rom" onboard that would only allow you to launch AmigaOS from any device IF this dongle was installed
I though the AmigaOne was already doing something like that. You're right, though. To pretty much guarantee that an OS will not work, you just have to change the BIOS.
I still feel more comfortable with a more standard BIOS, though. The navigation menus used for AMI-BIOS/PHOENIX are much, much easier than typing out arcane commands in OpenFirmware, and deliver much more valuable information about the hardware. I don't like the interfaces in OpenFirmware at all. I haven't used u-boot, though.
JetFireDX: 2. An "Early Startup" menu
I believe all that stuff could be done with a bootloader, rather than an extention to the BIOS. That's why it doensn't bug me that u-boot [from what I've heard] doesn't support multiple boot images on a CD. You only really need one.
I miss real boot loaders. If more than one bootable image is available, just ask the user which one they want to use, along with a "remember this setting" dialog.
Hammer: The minor compatibility difference between 750FX and 750GX is also an issue that X86 desktop ISVs would not tolerate.
Wow. Any idea what those compatibility issues are?
One thing I still find remarkable about the PC (if little else) is that you can still run DOS software written for a 386 on the Pentium4 EE. If you can't, it's probably an issue with a sound card or something stupid like that.
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Wow. Any idea what those compatibility issues are?
Recall in AW.net threads about 750FX Vs 750GX and AOS4-Pre issues. There are *minor* different between the two PPC32, but sufficiently enough to cause some issues to AOS4-pre.
"POWER everywhere" is nice IF they freeze ISA standard i.e. none of this 68K style ISA cut&paste. The *minor* incompatibility between PowerPC chips simply sucks from mainstream programmer’s view point.
One thing I still find remarkable about the PC (if little else) is that you can still run DOS software written for a 386 on the Pentium4 EE. If you can't, it's probably an issue with a sound card or something stupid like that.
I verify that IBM's DisplayWrite and DOS 3.30 (still in a box) can still run on Athlon 64 3200+.
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Hammer wrote:
Wow. Any idea what those compatibility issues are?
Recall in AW.net threads about 750FX Vs 750GX and AOS4-Pre issues. There are *minor* different between the two PPC32, but sufficiently enough to cause some issues to AOS4-pre.
“POWER everywhere” is nice IF they freeze ISA standard i.e. none of this 68K style ISA cut&paste. The *minor* incompatibility between PowerPC chips simply sucks from mainstream programmer’s view point.
I'm not disagreeing (somehow disagreeing with Hammer about anything CPU related seems about as sensible as jamming one's tongue in a breville), but what level of incompatibility are we talking about here? I mean almost every member of the 680x0 series had minor differences with those before it - quite majorly so in the 68040 / 68060, but I don't recall it ever being a major problem.
Is it the fact that existing instructions with the same opcode values have changed implementation or what, exactly?
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I'm not disagreeing (somehow disagreeing with Hammer about anything CPU related seems about as sensible as jamming one's tongue in a breville), but what level of incompatibility are we talking about here?
.
Able to run unmodified ~1985 OS on 2004 HW.
I mean almost every member of the 680x0 series had minor differences with those before it - quite majorly so in the 68040 / 68060, but I don't recall it ever being a major problem.
Why do you need a 68040.library or DeciGEL/SetAlert command(e.g. for 68010)?
In a strict sense, such mucking around would be undesirable in the PC desktop corporate world. The administration and governances are the real issues with wana’be alternative PC camps e.g. Freescale's 8641 (Q4 2005 sampling) should be 8548 when done right the first time(sigh).
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2. An "Early Startup" menu
During the BIOS checks; Pressing F12 on the old IBM ThinkPad T2x enables the user to select other bootable devices.
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by Karlos on 2005/1/26 17:59:19
f it had gone x86, then great, I would have saved money too.
Then what do you call AROS, chop liver?
Dammy
TeamAROS
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Karlos wrote:
Hammer wrote:
Wow. Any idea what those compatibility issues are?
Recall in AW.net threads about 750FX Vs 750GX and AOS4-Pre issues. There are *minor* different between the two PPC32, but sufficiently enough to cause some issues to AOS4-pre.
“POWER everywhere” is nice IF they freeze ISA standard i.e. none of this 68K style ISA cut&paste. The *minor* incompatibility between PowerPC chips simply sucks from mainstream programmer’s view point.
I'm not disagreeing (somehow disagreeing with Hammer about anything CPU related seems about as sensible as jamming one's tongue in a breville), but what level of incompatibility are we talking about here? I mean almost every member of the 680x0 series had minor differences with those before it - quite majorly so in the 68040 / 68060, but I don't recall it ever being a major problem.
Is it the fact that existing instructions with the same opcode values have changed implementation or what, exactly?
Had AMD run Motorola, the PPC would have had a 68K frontend, which could be switched in and out like the Athlon64's Long mode... Also the PPC Mode would have been called 64 bit mode (As the ISA would have been 64bit) and the promotional material would have said: "The New '68K64', can run all you existing apps, and ready for MacOS-64 and AmigaOS-64!". :-D
Hammer is right though, had Motorola kept better compatibility between all it's products they would have survived better on the desktop.
Err... Windows 3.11 runs on my Althon64... :inquisitive: Weird...
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dammy wrote:
by Karlos on 2005/1/26 17:59:19
f it had gone x86, then great, I would have saved money too.
Then what do you call AROS, chop liver?
Dammy
TeamAROS
I have downloaded AROS periodically and taken it for a spin on the old PC. And I have to confess, it's about as much fun as one can have with x86 :-)
However, and don't take it personally but for me, AROS is not AmigaOS. It is source compatible and I do intend to code on it at some point but I prefer to wait until it has matured further. Also, I want to see where the OS is going as opposed to just where it has been. In this regard, I feel AROS and AmigaOS will diverge considerably. So, which route to follow? For me, that depends on which of the two is presently the most compatible.
It's probably not a good quantifiable reason, but one of the reasons I feel more of a connection with OS4 is that it already runs on my classic PPC, which has several bootable versions of AmigaOS. It runs the old 3.x applications (well the 680x0 ones), even the hardware banging ones, without UAE , as well as the newer OS4 native ones. I appreciate that the A1 does not have this level of compatibility, but it will always be more compatible with existing software than AROS (that is, until, AROS develops some kind of internal 680x0 emulation).
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Karlos wrote:
dammy wrote:
by Karlos on 2005/1/26 17:59:19
f it had gone x86, then great, I would have saved money too.
Then what do you call AROS, chop liver?
Dammy
TeamAROS
I have downloaded AROS periodically and taken it for a spin on the old PC. And I have to confess, it's about as much fun as one can have with x86 :-)
However, and don't take it personally but for me, AROS is not AmigaOS. It is source compatible and I do intend to code on it at some point but I prefer to wait until it has matured further. Also, I want to see where the OS is going as opposed to just where it has been. In this regard, I feel AROS and AmigaOS will diverge considerably. So, which route to follow? For me, that depends on which of the two is presently the most compatible.
It's probably not a good quantifiable reason, but one of the reasons I feel more of a connection with OS4 is that it already runs on my classic PPC, which has several bootable versions of AmigaOS. It runs the old 3.x applications (well the 680x0 ones), even the hardware banging ones, without UAE , as well as the newer OS4 native ones. I appreciate that the A1 does not have this level of compatibility, but it will always be more compatible with existing software than AROS (that is, until, AROS develops some kind of internal 680x0 emulation).
This leads me to the question just HOW compatible is OS/4 with old Amiga software.. I know that OS 3.9 enabled some PPC compatibility, but honestly to me emulation is emulation. Whether you have to run it through software or some OS later.. If you were to run a "classic" mac application on OS X it would load an entire copy of the old Mac OS just to run that application. At the chip level the PowerPC really has nothing in common with the 680x0. Most people today run a version of "UAE" just to be compatible with applications for compatiblity with old custom chips.
The issue for me with Aros is no longer does it run on a network or is it compatible? The issue is completeness of existing features like wanderer. I have already a machine waiting dedicated to AROS, and source compatiblity is good enough as long as it inspires a new generation of software.
So far AmigaOS4 has been out in one form or another (not the final release) and I have yet to see a lot of cool new software. You always have to give these things about a year to happen, but I am happy with my amd64 windows box until that happens. When I actually see new software for it, I probably will buy one.. However I am not convinced that speedwise and hardware coolness wise it, that it's anywhere as nice as the intel hardware I own..
I think for PC hardware lovers AROS is the trojan horse necessary to raise their "Amiga consciousness" and people will like it in some instances even better than Windows. Certainly for what it does the price is right..
I think Amiga folks need to get over their "mac envy" and see modern cpus (even Intel ones) for what they are just tools.. Even with Altivec, no one is gonna convince me I am gonna get better performance out of that than an equally expensive intel-compatible system..
I sound like I am trolling here, but someone needs really to do an evaluation with just how compatible an A1 is with "classic Amiga" before they suggest anything about how compatible AROS is to "classic Amiga".. How much of that classic software is also still out there for sale? I am sorry but I am not a fanboy of the A1 and REFUSE to give it, more respect until I see more native software (out for sale on store shelves). I would also see a model that's even competitive with even current low-end intel boxes price-wise..
I would like to see Eyetech selling something other than a cheap low-end crap sound card like the Vibra 16 for the A1. Why even bother? The (CMI based)AC'97 sound built into the A1 models is much nicer. I think you have to position a machine correctly, and things like Radeon 7000 support and sounds cards that are so 3-4 years ago need to change. Someone has to go out there and write software and maybe even sell drivers that support more modern hardware not just things that are an easy port from the open source community. Until this happens the machine will always gather a certain "lacklusterness" even though it has the "Amiga" brand..
PS @Previous poster, does OS 4 (a release version?) really run on your classic PPC Amiga (with accelerator)?? Me thinks for most people out there this is a no, and OS4 on acclerated classic Amiga hardware isn't supported..
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DonnyEMU wrote:
Karlos wrote:
dammy wrote:
by Karlos on 2005/1/26 17:59:19
f it had gone x86, then great, I would have saved money too.
Then what do you call AROS, chop liver?
Dammy
TeamAROS
I have downloaded AROS periodically and taken it for a spin on the old PC. And I have to confess, it's about as much fun as one can have with x86 :-)
However, and don't take it personally but for me, AROS is not AmigaOS. It is source compatible and I do intend to code on it at some point but I prefer to wait until it has matured further. Also, I want to see where the OS is going as opposed to just where it has been. In this regard, I feel AROS and AmigaOS will diverge considerably. So, which route to follow? For me, that depends on which of the two is presently the most compatible.
It's probably not a good quantifiable reason, but one of the reasons I feel more of a connection with OS4 is that it already runs on my classic PPC, which has several bootable versions of AmigaOS. It runs the old 3.x applications (well the 680x0 ones), even the hardware banging ones, without UAE , as well as the newer OS4 native ones. I appreciate that the A1 does not have this level of compatibility, but it will always be more compatible with existing software than AROS (that is, until, AROS develops some kind of internal 680x0 emulation).
This leads me to the question just HOW compatible is OS/4 with old Amiga software.. I know that OS 3.9 enabled some PPC compatibility, but honestly to me emulation is emulation. Whether you have to run it through software or some OS later.. If you were to run a "classic" mac application on OS X it would load an entire copy of the old Mac OS just to run that application. At the chip level the PowerPC really has nothing in common with the 680x0. Most people today run a version of "UAE" just to be compatible with applications for compatiblity with old custom chips.
I think karlos's argument revolves around being able to run the OS (Be it AmigaOS4 or AROS) on his existing hardware. Funnily enough that is my argument too... the only difference is that I have invested in newer hardware, which I had to do since I now have a large x86 software investment spanning nearly 5 years. Despite exclusivly owing an Amiga for 10 years (and inclusivly for 16 years), I probably only have maybe 3 or 4 years worth of software invesment, 100% of which is not irrepalceable with modern software.
Like karlos, AmigaOS 4 only becomes interesting to me when I can run it on my existing hardware, but unlike karlos I can't get OS4 to run on my BlizzPPC... yet. But I can run AROS on my existing hardware.
What does interest me is what happens when Karlos's BlizzPPC dies... :-(
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@Bloodline
When that fateful day arrives, I will be forced to reconsider my options. However, it is quite likely that I will have already bought a more powerful PPC system by then, the migration from classic to A1 will be even less painful than it is now.
An interesting future project, in many ways a variation of one of my existing ones would be a Unified Amiga Layer, a nice standard library, classes etc that make the future diversification of the platforms easier to deal with from a developer perspective.
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This leads me to the question just HOW compatible is OS/4 with old Amiga software..
On my system, for instance, I can fire up DPaint AGA under OS4. It just runs as if it were on OS3. Except for the the fact that that things tend to be a lot snappier.
I know what you are saying about emulation, but I prefer emulation to be non-intrusive. OS4 and MOS are excellent in this respect in that they transparently run 680x0 stuff, they don't need to do a MacOSX style "load the previous OS" in order to do it and they certianly don't need to use a full blown UAE style emulation. You just run an application, and aside from the often highly conspicuous speed increases you really don't know it's not running on a real 680x0.
Now, the A1 hardware naturally has no AGA/ECS/OCS compatibility, so hardware banging stuff just won't work or won't work as expected (to say the least), but that would be true of an existing amiga "clone" like the Draco. That doesn't make it an unusable system.
What OS4 does for me, is to allow me to run my existing applications and those that are new and OS4 specific. As more and more of these appear, so I will gradually migrate away from needing / wanting any OS3.x/AGA compatibility, by which time some A1 style system will be far more attractive to me than it might be now (not that it isn't already, save for my finances :lol:)
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PS @Previous poster, does OS 4 (a release version?) really run on your classic PPC Amiga (with accelerator)?? Me thinks for most people out there this is a no, and OS4 on acclerated classic Amiga hardware isn't supported..
Yes it really runs and runs well. Why is that such a surprise?
Check my pictures in the gallery, there's a shot from mid last year sometime.
edit
PNG grab of me mucking about with p96 and some 680x0 stuff here (500K image) (http://secure.tillpoint.com/_rsc/wbos4.png)
Note that the grabbing process seemed to catch the emulated 68020 based voxelspace demo partway through (not to mention killing it's speed a bit), but typically it was getting 30fps; fullscreen it hit refresh rate. Which is far faster than my real 040 can manage running the same executable (windowed, about 12fps maximum under the same conditions).
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bloodline wrote:
DonnyEMU wrote:
Karlos wrote:
dammy wrote:
by Karlos on 2005/1/26 17:59:19
f it had gone x86, then great, I would have saved money too.
Then what do you call AROS, chop liver?
Dammy
TeamAROS
I have downloaded AROS periodically and taken it for a spin on the old PC. And I have to confess, it's about as much fun as one can have with x86 :-)
However, and don't take it personally but for me, AROS is not AmigaOS. It is source compatible and I do intend to code on it at some point but I prefer to wait until it has matured further. Also, I want to see where the OS is going as opposed to just where it has been. In this regard, I feel AROS and AmigaOS will diverge considerably. So, which route to follow? For me, that depends on which of the two is presently the most compatible.
It's probably not a good quantifiable reason, but one of the reasons I feel more of a connection with OS4 is that it already runs on my classic PPC, which has several bootable versions of AmigaOS. It runs the old 3.x applications (well the 680x0 ones), even the hardware banging ones, without UAE , as well as the newer OS4 native ones. I appreciate that the A1 does not have this level of compatibility, but it will always be more compatible with existing software than AROS (that is, until, AROS develops some kind of internal 680x0 emulation).
This leads me to the question just HOW compatible is OS/4 with old Amiga software.. I know that OS 3.9 enabled some PPC compatibility, but honestly to me emulation is emulation. Whether you have to run it through software or some OS later.. If you were to run a "classic" mac application on OS X it would load an entire copy of the old Mac OS just to run that application. At the chip level the PowerPC really has nothing in common with the 680x0. Most people today run a version of "UAE" just to be compatible with applications for compatiblity with old custom chips.
I think karlos's argument revolves around being able to run the OS (Be it AmigaOS4 or AROS) on his existing hardware. Funnily enough that is my argument too... the only difference is that I have invested in newer hardware, which I had to do since I now have a large x86 software investment spanning nearly 5 years. Despite exclusivly owing an Amiga for 10 years (and inclusivly for 16 years), I probably only have maybe 3 or 4 years worth of software invesment, 100% of which is not irrepalceable with modern software.
Like karlos, AmigaOS 4 only becomes interesting to me when I can run it on my existing hardware, but unlike karlos I can't get OS4 to run on my BlizzPPC... yet. But I can run AROS on my existing hardware.
What does interest me is what happens when Karlos's BlizzPPC dies... :-(
Just *hope* that uA1 is *cheap* enough when that time arrives i.e. Eyetech must sell uA1 to other markets ASAP.
This might be tricky since Eyetech is competing with other PPC vendors with MPC8548E (as an example).
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OS4 and MOS are excellent in this respect in that they transparently run 680x0 stuff, they don't need to do a MacOSX style "load the previous OS" in order to do it and they certianly don't need to use a full blown UAE style emulation.
I think the MacOS approach is actually the best all round idea... removes the legacy dependacy.
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@Bloodline
I absolutely guarentee you would not say that if you ever had to use it ;-)
-edit-
Also, one of the reasons that OS4/MOS get the performance they do is *because* they don't rely on emulating everything as the OS code remains native. That way all those old 3.x applications get the benefit of newer/faster OS routines, datatypes etc. etc.
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I absolutely guarentee you would not say that if you ever had to use it
I have used... it made me want to upgrade the os9 software to osX software... which makes good business sense, and perpetuates the platform :-)
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:lol: I suppose there is that :-D
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Bloodline: I have used... it made me want to upgrade the os9 software to osX software... which makes good business sense, and perpetuates the platform
Yeah, that's my beef, too. If it was cheaper for me to get an OS4 platform (hundreds and not a full thousand), it would be easy for me to start writing software for it, which is what Amiga really needs to survive.
All this talk about what hardware matters, and after we have it, still no software. It's tough getting used to a new platform when companies are terrified of making anything available to developers because they're worried about piracy. That's a sure-fire way to kill a platform.
Still, many Amiga software companies are out of business, so there's no way to get an OS4 native version of many apps. Amiga users may enjoy OS4 as a way to run their old software faster, but there's little point making software for it, now.
Me, I do Java, Perl, and PHP. I don't have to own a Mac or Linux to know that it will work. :-)
I am so pissed over Amiga's inability to get DE out. The SDK was a total joke with nothing but Java apps!
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Waccoon wrote:
Bloodline: I have used... it made me want to upgrade the os9 software to osX software... which makes good business sense, and perpetuates the platform
Yeah, that's my beef, too. If it was cheaper for me to get an OS4 platform (hundreds and not a full thousand), it would be easy for me to start writing software for it, which is what Amiga really needs to survive.
All this talk about what hardware matters, and after we have it, still no software. It's tough getting used to a new platform when companies are terrified of making anything available to developers because they're worried about piracy. That's a sure-fire way to kill a platform.
There is too much talk of hardware... it seems like Amiga users have never realised that hardware is now a commodity... it's irrelavant to the equation of a computer platform, you just buy the cheapest that does the job.
What is important is software... the REASON why you buy the hardawre in the first place. And 10-15 year old apps, regardless of how good they are have nothing to do with people buying software.
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There is too much talk of hardware... it seems like Amiga users have never realised that hardware is now a commodity... it's irrelavant to the equation of a computer platform, you just buy the cheapest that does the job.
What is important is software... the REASON why you buy the hardawre in the first place. And 10-15 year old apps, regardless of how good they are have nothing to do with people buying software.
That is DEAD ON, bloodline.
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terminator wrote:
(Linux is an exception, it isn't a commercial product, nor does it really have any traction outside of a few specialized zones. It costs nothing but your time to install, so it's no big loss if you don't use it.)
Say what? Then why is Microsoft so concerned about it?
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DavidF215 wrote:
terminator wrote:
(Linux is an exception, it isn't a commercial product, nor does it really have any traction outside of a few specialized zones. It costs nothing but your time to install, so it's no big loss if you don't use it.)
Say what? Then why is Microsoft so concerned about it?
Because Linux is free and Windows is not.
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1) the Apple Mac and MacOS (in it's various problems) have been around and continue to live in the face of overwhelming Windows competition... Mac games most of the times come out later than windows, but still sell profitably.
You know, I went into CompUSA one time to check on MacOS game software. They had all the games I would want, and they didn't have all of the Mac games. This arguement about no games or no software doesn't really float very well. How many Office applications does one need for biz apps to type a document and create a spreadsheet; an office suite along with Solitaire is adequate for the majority of Corporate America, and I know because I've provided tech support in Corporate America for several years. Most don't even know how to use MS-Office to its potential, and the majority only need a dumb terminal with downloaded apps and a network drive to save their work (but this is another thread all together).
2) The original Amiga 1000 sold a ton of machines before the "low cost" version came out (i.e. the A500) and was positioned very well as a business and creative home solution and it was priced well above the Apple's and IBMs of the time. It wasn't until Atari with the ST came out and started UNDERCUTTING them that they released the A500..
Yeah, I do recall that an A2000/A2500 was about $2000 when it first came out, and the A4000 was a bit more when it came out, and it along with the Video Toaster, helped to propel the platform until its current barely surviving state. So someone make a modern Video Toaster equivalent for AmigaOne (and compatibles) so when AmigaOS finally works on a G5, I'll have a good machine for video editting.
3) Apple must think there is a market still there on the low end too, to release a "new" low end machine..
So does Dell if they sale a low grade PC for $399 (after rebates, of course). So an A1200 would still sell well with an 040 or 060 processor. :)
4) Why did people buy Amiga software in the first place over the other machines out there? It probably wasn't the revolutionary market. You can have the best hardware in the world and it won't sell without software behind it.. The simple fact is that it sold because of what the software let the machine do. Small time developers who weren't writing for the platforms of the day were gravitating towards it.. This could happen again, if the OS can still generate some unique software.
It was simple, had good software (even though there wasn't a lot of software for the Amiga--same "not a lot of software" argument as often applied to MacOS), had a target markets (such as art and entertainment), it had true multitasking, lots of simultaneous colors on display, and some other advantages which Amiga owners know about.
5)Did you ever buy Amiga software in anywhere but a mail order or a place that sold software for other machines? Probably not.. There is a reason for this..
I bought my A1200 from a catalog because it was cheaper than going to the store to buy it. I did buy the software from my local Amiga dealer in Springfield, MO at the time. Then I went down to my hometown of Corpus Christi and spoke with the Amiga dealer there, who told me I got ripped off; I was not happy then.
I think people would look for an alternative platform that's different from what they use at work, if the software was unique enough in a solution..
My above comment about Corporate America is a good reply for this, too. Entire departments could still use an A1200/040 (or even Pentium3) for their work machine. I'd pick the A1200 because it boots faster than a P3 with Windows on it. Give them an A1200, a mouse, and an LCD monitor, and they have a computer workstation including keyboard. Would sure beat those dump door stop CPU tower hogs. I would have bought A1200's when I was IT manager at a company in Fort Worth had they still been manufactured at the time.
Actualy 3rd world countries could still use the A1200 computer. An A1200 with an 030 would still be cheap to manufacture for less than $200-$300, wouldn't it?
Also I think if AmigaOS ran on standard hardware, people might see it as a good alternative (provided the software support was there, which could happen over time). While people don't wanna change their hardware (that's why they may not be an A1) they are more likely to change their software if it works better..
Better software was one of the good points about Amiga. It's one of the reasons I bought an A1200.
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transami wrote:
There is too much talk of hardware... it seems like Amiga users have never realised that hardware is now a commodity... it's irrelavant to the equation of a computer platform, you just buy the cheapest that does the job.
What is important is software... the REASON why you buy the hardawre in the first place. And 10-15 year old apps, regardless of how good they are have nothing to do with people buying software.
That is DEAD ON, bloodline.
Righto. It's all in the Reason (or solution). How can it solve a problem I have or do something better?
So, the next question is, what does A1 do better or how does it solve a problem?
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bloodline wrote:
DavidF215 wrote:
terminator wrote:
(Linux is an exception, it isn't a commercial product, nor does it really have any traction outside of a few specialized zones. It costs nothing but your time to install, so it's no big loss if you don't use it.)
Say what? Then why is Microsoft so concerned about it?
Because Linux is free and Windows is not.
I wouldn't call Linux exactly free. It can be bought in many computer stores like Best Buy and CompUSA. And often times next to Windows XP. So, I don't consider "it's free" as a major reason why Microsoft is afraid of it; I would agree that it is a (one) reason, but I don't think that is the primary reason why they are now compaigning against it.
If it is because Linux is free, then if AmigaOS4 was free, then it too should (at some point) become a threat to Microsoft. And saying that x86 hardware is cheaper is not a good argument because as AmigaOS4 became more popular, then more demand for PPC solutions would drive the prices of PPC hardware down; thus, PPC hardware would eventually become similarly priced to x86 hardware. And if Pegasos II's PPC solution takes hold in the "free" Linux market, then because Linux is "free" PPC prices may drop anyways, so AmigaOS may benefit from it.
*Edit-add*
As a thought, Hyperion may ought to consider providing AmigaOS for free. They can get financing through various other means including requiring OEM's to pay a small $10 license fee for each AmigaOS4 license installed on the computer; they can also charge a small upgrade fee like Microsoft and Apple do.
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As a thought, Hyperion may ought to consider providing AmigaOS for free. They can get financing through various other means including requiring OEM's to pay a small $10 license fee for each AmigaOS4 license installed on the computer; they can also charge a small upgrade fee like Microsoft and Apple do.
I got lost in there
??free single user?? then a per-seat license for multi-user??
zztzzt mental tracking *error in store 103*
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DavidF215: Say what? Then why is Microsoft so concerned about it?
It probably has more to do with the distribution model than with Linux replacing Windows. Much of the crap Microsoft does, like not letting you read your own hard drive with a boot disk, or trying to push their "trusted" content has more to do with power than piracy. Refer to debates over the value of Palladium (excuse me... "Next-Generation Secure Computing Base").
DavidF215: They had all the games I would want
They never have the games I want! :-x
I'd pick the A1200 because it boots faster than a P3 with Windows on it.
Yeah, it boots fast... and it has no memory protection, a sucky filesystem, no virutal memory...
OS4 corrects this somewhat, but it does boot slower than an A1200, you can't run it on a 1200 without lots of extra hardware, and boot-time is pretty stupid given that these computers might be running for eight hours straight.
Therse's a reason why most workstations and terminals run Win2000 instead of XP. With Apache and MySQL turned off, my Win2000 system boots up in 20 seconds. I'd say that's fast enough for the stability it provides than an A1200 does not.
DavidF215: An A1200 with an 030 would still be cheap to manufacture for less than $200-$300, wouldn't it?
I'm afraid not. Many expansion cards for Amigas cost more than PCs. Just beause the parts are cheap doesn't mean it's easy to build.
Besides, I think it's obvious the reason why PCs boot and run slow is because of Windows. Even a really old PC motherboard will blow away the highest-spec 68K design with the right software. There's no more custom hardware coming.
DavidF215: I wouldn't call Linux exactly free. It can be bought in many computer stores like Best Buy and CompUSA. And often times next to Windows XP. So, I don't consider "it's free" as a major reason why Microsoft is afraid of it; I would agree that it is a (one) reason, but I don't think that is the primary reason why they are now compaigning against it.
You're not buying Linux, you're buying the distribution and the custom maintenance tools.
Linux is just a kernel, and GNU is the "UNIX compatible" layer. Both are free, but many don't want to compile all the thousands of other "standard" tools by hand.
I think Microsoft is just afraid that more companies will start using Linux as a foundation for new OSes. As a non-commercial product, Linux builds really can't compete with the ease of use and integration of Windows, at least in principle. Free developers most definately don't have the same priorities of making things simple as commercial companies, even if they want to make it look that way.
Frankly, that's what I'm waiting for. I want a new OS that starts with Linux, keeps the good stuff, fixes the bad stuff without worrying about maintaining compatibility with the other 50,000 "UNIX compatible" OSes, and has an entirely new desktop.
A half-baked OS made from scratch isn't going to cut it. UNIX does have lots of flaws that need to be fixed, but it's a good starting point and has a good philosophy for making tools.
DavidF251: And saying that x86 hardware is cheaper is not a good argument because as AmigaOS4 became more popular, then more demand for PPC solutions would drive the prices of PPC hardware down.
If DE had been released instead of OS4, we could use x86 now and switch to PowerPC later. That's part of the "hardware is irrelevant" argument. Some say that if hardware doesn't matter, we might as well use PPC. It doesn't occur to them that with proper planning, you can switch CPUs easily.
After ten years, people still have a hard time understanding why Java is so damn popular, especially in the embedded market where CPUs are switched frequently.
DavidF215: As a thought, Hyperion may ought to consider providing AmigaOS for free.
Oh, now you're really dreaming. Amiga has to market the machine themselves to prove it's profitable before they can work with OEMs.
Besides, everyone knows the AmgiaOne is too damn expensive AND slow AND buggy. At least most experimental computers, like BeBox, have some major advantage over the competition. AmigaOne is way, way behind, and will likely stay there.
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I am only replying to this because I wrote the original material he was replying to, so I don't want my points misunderstood..
DavidF215 wrote:
You know, I went into CompUSA one time to check on MacOS game software. They had all the games I would want, and they didn't have all of the Mac games. This arguement about no games or no software doesn't really float very well. How many Office applications does one need for biz apps to type a document and create a spreadsheet; an office suite along with Solitaire is adequate for the majority of Corporate America, and I know because I've provided tech support in Corporate America for several years. Most don't even know how to use MS-Office to its potential, and the majority only need a dumb terminal with downloaded apps and a network drive to save their work (but this is another thread all together).
I agree so far..
Yeah, I do recall that an A2000/A2500 was about $2000 when it first came out, and the A4000 was a bit more when it came out, and it along with the Video Toaster, helped to propel the platform until its current barely surviving state. So someone make a modern Video Toaster equivalent for AmigaOne (and compatibles) so when AmigaOS finally works on a G5, I'll have a good machine for video editting.
Right now with under $1000 and adobe premiere you can do broadcast quality digital video and some could argue you could even do it on that $399 dell.. If that's possible it would be possible to do it all in software on an AmigaOne without having toaster hardware.. You might check out VHI Studio from www.iospirit.de
(http://amiga.iospirit.de/index.php/mode/files/type/image/id/177/size/600/screen1.jpeg)
So does Dell if they sale a low grade PC for $399 (after rebates, of course). So an A1200 would still sell well with an 040 or 060 processor. :)
I am sorry, I just don't believe this is the case, even if you could run that CPU at that price, you are comparing CPU horsepower of a model T to a jet engine.. There are many reasons with specs that people won't continue to buy something with a 68k cpu.. (unless it becomes a tv game joystick). You really haven't spent enough time on PC hardware to make that conjecture stick.. Even, if you run AmigaOS thru UAE it would be many times faster on that low end PC..
It was simple, had good software (even though there wasn't a lot of software for the Amiga--same "not a lot of software" argument as often applied to MacOS), had a target markets (such as art and entertainment), it had true multitasking, lots of simultaneous colors on display, and some other advantages which Amiga owners know about.
Actually if you look at the Amazing Computing yearly product guide, you would find more products (literally thousands) in it than on the Mac or PC. The thing is the companies selling it were way smaller and couldn't get the shelf space. So beause you couldn't go to a software store and buy anything but a few games really made it look like something it wasn't. Did you see Microsystems Excellence! at the time available at anywher but an amiga dealer or mail order? Companies like Electronics Boutique sold just games because it probably would have cut into the other manufacturers business software that was there...
So I really think that's a big misnomer that Amiga didn't have the software..
I bought my A1200 from a catalog because it was cheaper than going to the store to buy it. I did buy the software from my local Amiga dealer in Springfield, MO at the time. Then I went down to my hometown of Corpus Christi and spoke with the Amiga dealer there, who told me I got ripped off; I was not happy then.
Dealers hated mail order undercutting, it made the whole Amiga market very unprofitable for the small dealers who were trying to survive who didn't sell in large quantities. Commodore gave deep discounts if you bought a lot of machines every quarter because they liked their previous "64 style sales"... The mail order places really cheapened the feel of buying a machine, while Apple and IBM policed their dealer channels very carefully..
My above comment about Corporate America is a good reply for this, too. Entire departments could still use an A1200/040 (or even Pentium3) for their work machine. I'd pick the A1200 because it boots faster than a P3 with Windows on it. Give them an A1200, a mouse, and an LCD monitor, and they have a computer workstation including keyboard. Would sure beat those dump door stop CPU tower hogs. I would have bought A1200's when I was IT manager at a company in Fort Worth had they still been manufactured at the time.
Actualy 3rd world countries could still use the A1200 computer. An A1200 with an 030 would still be cheap to manufacture for less than $200-$300, wouldn't it?
Sorry, things are so much faster now than they used to be and everything is automated.. Networking, multi-user improvements, systems management would be neessary to support IT organizations.. You can upgrade even a celeron to a 64 bit computer for about $300 per station these days..
Better software was one of the good points about Amiga. It's one of the reasons I bought an A1200.
I have an a1200 an A3000 and have owned every Amiga at one time or another.. I have even worked for a dealer.. The PC and Mac have moved so far along to support business environments and networking, that even OS 4 needs major improvements to fit properly in a multi-station environment. In a single workstation environment, maybe (with a competitive cpu, graphics, etc. (sounds like AmigaOne or Aros to me)..
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DonnyEMU: even OS 4 needs major improvements to fit properly in a multi-station environment
Yeah, Hyperion gave us this speech that OS4 is a single-user system and doesn't need all that multi-user stuff. That stuff isn't just intended to let more than one person use a computer. It's a complete framework for secure networking. Not giving OS4 any muti-user capabilies is a big, big mistake, in the same way that Windows and Mac were very slow to realize the importance of networking and the Internet.
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Yeah, Hyperion gave us this speech that OS4 is a single-user system and doesn't need all that multi-user stuff. That stuff isn't just intended to let more than one person use a computer. It's a complete framework for secure networking. Not giving OS4 any muti-user capabilies is a big, big mistake, in the same way that Windows and Mac were very slow to realize the importance of networking and the Internet.
Question...is it that Hyperion has no intention of ever adding these features, or is it that that much of an OS overhaul is simply too much work for getting into the OS4.0 release? Your message makes it sound like the former.
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Question...is it that Hyperion has no intention of ever adding these features, or is it that that much of an OS overhaul is simply too much work for getting into the OS4.0 release? Your message makes it sound like the former.
It's a little of both, but the official word from Hyperion is that OS4 is a single-user system, multi-user accounts aren't needed, and they are using security through obscurity.
To me, that sounds like they have no intention to add it, rather than it is too difficult, but your milage may vary. My reasoning is that it's very difficult to add support for accounts later on, without making it a complete joke, a la Windows. Given all the problems with today's systems, any new OS should make security a priority.
Besides, I can't believe that account security is that difficult to do, given that they already have UNIX/Linux to use as a template, and Amiga programs tend to be very well behaved compared to Windows programs (not dipping into the system folder, using config files instead of a system registry, writing files into their own folders instead of temp folders or other "special" directories defined by environment variables... etc.)
Not thinking about security now is much like getting hooked on PPC: once you start a new platform with no legacy support, you're stuck with it. Like it or not, PPC and non-secured filesystems are the future of Amiga -- because Hyperion either didn't think about the future, or didn't want to.
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Besides, I can't believe that account security is that difficult to do (SNIP)
Amiga‘s legacy message system would be an issue. This is related to memory protection issues.
out making it a complete joke, a la Windows
It can be secured with an aggressive application lockdowns and usage of non-root/admin user accounts.
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DonnyEMU wrote:
I am only replying to this because I wrote the original material he was replying to, so I don't want my points misunderstood..
Right now with under $1000 and adobe premiere you can do broadcast quality digital video and some could argue you could even do it on that $399 dell.. If that's possible it would be possible to do it all in software on an AmigaOne without having toaster hardware.. You might check out VHI Studio from www.iospirit.de
I can do basic video editing on an AMD 1900+ with WinXP SP2 and Movie Maker 2. Nothing glamerous, of course, and generating 70 min of VCD/DVD data takes about 2 hours--I just start it and walk away.
So does Dell if they sale a low grade PC for $399 (after rebates, of course). So an A1200 would still sell well with an 040 or 060 processor. :)
I am sorry, I just don't believe this is the case, even if you could run that CPU at that price, you are comparing CPU horsepower of a model T to a jet engine.. There are many reasons with specs that people won't continue to buy something with a 68k cpu.. (unless it becomes a tv game joystick). You really haven't spent enough time on PC hardware to make that conjecture stick.. Even, if you run AmigaOS thru UAE it would be many times faster on that low end PC..
What I meant was that basic computer tasks could still be done on an 040 or 060 processor. Tasks such as word processing, spreadsheets, small to medium sized databases, web browsing, some game play, etc.
Actually if you look at the Amazing Computing yearly product guide, you would find more products (literally thousands) in it than on the Mac or PC. The thing is the companies selling it were way smaller and couldn't get the shelf space. So beause you couldn't go to a software store and buy anything but a few games really made it look like something it wasn't. Did you see Microsystems Excellence! at the time available at anywher but an amiga dealer or mail order? Companies like Electronics Boutique sold just games because it probably would have cut into the other manufacturers business software that was there...
So I really think that's a big misnomer that Amiga didn't have the software..
I Agree.
Dealers hated mail order undercutting, it made the whole Amiga market very unprofitable for the small dealers who were trying to survive who didn't sell in large quantities. Commodore gave deep discounts if you bought a lot of machines every quarter because they liked their previous "64 style sales"... The mail order places really cheapened the feel of buying a machine, while Apple and IBM policed their dealer channels very carefully..
True. But it's like that today with x86 equipment. I agree that it undercut the dealers.
So all in all, what most are saying in this thread is to use AROS on cheap x86 hardware for basic Amiga work (word processing, spreadsheets, database, etc--do such applications run on AROS?) and buy a Peg2 with MorphOS and a free LinuxOS for a modern Amiga system since A1 isn't modernized enough.
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What I meant was that basic computer tasks could still be done on an 040 or 060 processor. Tasks such as word processing, spreadsheets, small to medium sized databases, web browsing, some game play, etc.
68060 @50Mhz may not be enough for basic personal computing for 21st century i.e. easy MP3 play back, DVD(Mpeg2)player, full featured web browser (with WMV/Real Player/QT6 and Java VM content).
PS; AMD's PIC* reference (mainly targeted for third world countries) already blows away 68060@66Mhz based Amiga PC. *Based on the AMD’s Geode GX SoC (includes video acceleration infrastructure, integrated DDR memory controller and ‘etc’). The power consumption of 1.1Watt at 533MHz or 0.9Watt at 466Mhz. AMD’s Geode GX also includes MMX and 3DNow SIMDs.
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Hammer wrote:
Besides, I can't believe that account security is that difficult to do (SNIP)
Amiga‘s legacy message system would be an issue. This is related to memory protection issues.
But are those issues that great? The way I understood it was that OS4 will introduce virtual memory (albeit in the 'off'-position with default setups), and that messaging will proceed via shared memory. I know that the OS3.x API has a flag you can pass to AllocMem() to indicate you want to allocate shared memory, although on those systems there is really no difference between normal and shared since its all one flat memory space anyway. In theory, programs which allocated everything by the book should have no problems on OS4, right? Or am I missing something?
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bloodline wrote:
DavidF215 wrote:
terminator wrote:
(Linux is an exception, it isn't a commercial product, nor does it really have any traction outside of a few specialized zones. It costs nothing but your time to install, so it's no big loss if you don't use it.)
Say what? Then why is Microsoft so concerned about it?
Because Linux is free and Windows is not.
As long as Linux is around in the server market, MS is going to be unable to charge what they think their commercial products are worth.
Look at how much they charge for Office, since they have little competition.
Charge too much for a server application, and suddenly Linux looks attractive to the bean counters. Any decent IT department with a few Unix Gurus on staff would have no issues with installing Linux. (Forget the lamers who run windows and have little experience outside of it: They cause more trouble than they're worth when not administering windows.)
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DavidF215 wrote:
I wouldn't call Linux exactly free. It can be bought in many computer stores like Best Buy and CompUSA. And often times next to Windows XP. So, I don't consider "it's free" as a major reason why Microsoft is afraid of it; I would agree that it is a (one) reason, but I don't think that is the primary reason why they are now compaigning against it.
Linux is free. When you buy a commerical package, you are not paying for Linux, you are paying for the media, the packaging, and any additional materials the publisher supplies.
You could download it too, less the CD, box, and any printed matter.
If it is because Linux is free, then if AmigaOS4 was free, then it too should (at some point) become a threat to Microsoft. And saying that x86 hardware is cheaper is not a good argument because as AmigaOS4 became more popular, then more demand for PPC solutions would drive the prices of PPC hardware down; thus, PPC hardware would eventually become similarly priced to x86 hardware. And if Pegasos II's PPC solution takes hold in the "free" Linux market, then because Linux is "free" PPC prices may drop anyways, so AmigaOS may benefit from it.
*Edit-add*
As a thought, Hyperion may ought to consider providing AmigaOS for free. They can get financing through various other means including requiring OEM's to pay a small $10 license fee for each AmigaOS4 license installed on the computer; they can also charge a small upgrade fee like Microsoft and Apple do.
Time for a reality check: At $10/install, Hyperion would be dropping development tommorrow.
OS4 is included in the price of the A1 system. You buy an A1, you get OS4. If not, it may as well be free because the number of installs would exceed the number of legit copies.
What's next? Demanding OS4 on floppies?
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DavidF215 wrote:
What I meant was that basic computer tasks could still be done on an 040 or 060 processor. Tasks such as word processing, spreadsheets, small to medium sized databases, web browsing, some game play, etc.
Only basic web browsing, and simple/old games. And that still doesn't answer why bother, when you can get much better PCs for cheaper - indeed, PCs far more modern than this spec get thrown out in the trash these days.
I don't know about US prices, but check out the first system at http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/full_systems.html . £238.47 (with Windows XP) for an Athlon 2400+. Can a far slower 060 A1200 be built for less?
Also it's not just CPU speeds. AGA is way out of date - web browsing, word processing and spreadsheets are not as fun on 640x480. That's assuming you've paid the extra for one of those scandoublers to use a PC monitor, else you're stuck on 640x256 on a TV..
Even if we were considering an 040/060 AGA based Amiga, basing it around the A1200 would still be ludicrous, since it is much more expensive to add hard drives (being 2.5"), and CD/DVD drives (since they have to be external). Also it has heating problems with an 040 IIRC.
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terminator: As long as Linux is around in the server market, MS is going to be unable to charge what they think their commercial products are worth.
It's Linux moving out of the server market (cell phones, PDAs, anything a step closer to a desktop...), that has Microsoft scared. So long as MS controls the desktop, they can charge what they want.
terminator: Look at how much they charge for Office, since they have little competition.
The vast, vast majority of people who have Word don't really need it. Practically every student at my college submit newspaper articles in Word format, even though they were just text documents with no special formatting. Just about every place where I have ever worked had Word on every computer, and all they did was print out bulletins and memos.
Just use WordPad and RTF for that! Geez...
It's sick, but that's what happens when managers buy computers that are then used by other people. The people who buy software in business environments are rarely the people who use it.
Oh yeah, and our newspaper office was forced to upgrade Word every year, or we couldn't read new Word documents written on newer computers. It was sick, and probably still works that way.
Also it's not just CPU speeds. AGA is way out of date - web browsing, word processing and spreadsheets are not as fun on 640x480. That's assuming you've paid the extra for one of those scandoublers to use a PC monitor, else you're stuck on 640x256 on a TV..
Yup. Like I said earlier, the CPU is only one compnent on the board. There's little sense putting on USB, Firewire, SATA, and PCI slots just to dump a moldy old 060 in there, and building an old fashioned low-spec machine puts you into the same bracket as the G3 AmigaOne: you get much less power for the same price, or more, than a modern board made by the tens of thousands.
Yeah, I don't *need* my P4 2.4, but I only paid $300 for it and a top-tier motherboard, and I'm not replacing it with a board that has far, far less performance and older standards.
Ten years from now, will AmigaOne have decendants? I think not.
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Waccoon wrote:
terminator: As long as Linux is around in the server market, MS is going to be unable to charge what they think their commercial products are worth.
It's Linux moving out of the server market (cell phones, PDAs, anything a step closer to a desktop...), that has Microsoft scared. So long as MS controls the desktop, they can charge what they want.
Bill's Gates wet dream is to figure out a way to make money off the corporate customers. In particular, the media industry.
There is a lot of money to be made selling servers and services to sell music and movies online. MS knows that. The desktop customer means nothing, he is just a consumer to be delivered to MS' corporate clientele.
A lot of the functions MS' server software could provide can also be done with Linux. So it is hard to convince Warners to part with millions so they can sell you movies over the internet, when they could probably build their own systems based around Linux. Without MS charging for updates and their "file formats". All MS has to do is add features to their media player, include it in a service pack, and then use that to force the media companies to upgrade their software...
For the most part, Linux isn't really a threat to their stranglehold on the desktop. Windows is sold as a simple product, so that is what most people will go for. They stick with what they know and understand. Linux is too complex and demanding for the average computer user (or computer reseller....)
Windows is deceptive: it looks simple, but underneath, it isn't. Too many people make money off that, so they aren't interested in persuading the average user to convert to anything else. Same reason why IT people hate Macs: Hard to justify big bucks to maintain a reliable system...
terminator: Look at how much they charge for Office, since they have little competition.
The vast, vast majority of people who have Word don't really need it. Practically every student at my college submit newspaper articles in Word format, even though they were just text documents with no special formatting. Just about every place where I have ever worked had Word on every computer, and all they did was print out bulletins and memos.
Just use WordPad and RTF for that! Geez...
It's sick, but that's what happens when managers buy computers that are then used by other people. The people who buy software in business environments are rarely the people who use it.
Oh yeah, and our newspaper office was forced to upgrade Word every year, or we couldn't read new Word documents written on newer computers. It was sick, and probably still works that way.
[/quote]
The sheep use word because it was "free".
Management buys in, because they think it's better (and the MS salesman wouldn't leave until they bought Word.)
We use WordPerfect at work, preparing legal documents. Still, some people agitate for Word, claiming it's "better". A few courses in WordPerfect, and they would probably have less problems. We're at WP10, yet I don't think the file format has changed since WP6.
Of course, many pc users have no idea what the SAVE AS function can do...
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DavidF215 wrote:
( snip, snip...)
....
True. But it's like that today with x86 equipment. I agree that it undercut the dealers.
So all in all, what most are saying in this thread is to use AROS on cheap x86 hardware for basic Amiga work (word processing, spreadsheets, database, etc--do such applications run on AROS?) and buy a Peg2 with MorphOS and a free LinuxOS for a modern Amiga system since A1 isn't modernized enough.
No not at all. I am suggesting if you want an Amiga style operating system and you won't leave your x86 hardware for a G4, then you might find AROS the answer. Question: Is there native apps for either OS from 3rd party developers?
You are asking if such applications run on AROS, I am quite confident that they will as development continues and the fact that it's source code compatible with 3.1 is quite amazing.
If you haven't tried AROS-Max and loaded and run all the programs that have already been ported from Aminet and Fish, then you should. It will convince you of this x86 OS's worthiness. While it's not an Amiga (not binarily 68K (without UAE) or PPC compatible) it's very capable, and with the right hardware probably faster than an AmigaOne..
My point about the OS in general being modernized enough has to do with the points I already made. Samba is a nice thing for both OS4 and AROS, but we really do need a true multi-user solution. This might be true of AROS as well. It needs to be addressed before it's put on a big network, but for now it might be a nice stand alone server/workstation.. Network admins usually don't like machines that don't have some kind of SNMP and remote administration or something they have to go to a command line that takes time to configure.
So with the Peg moving to Linux, and MorphOS stalled, if you want an Amiga style OS, you have the options of a real AmigaOne or AROS, neither give you previous chipset compatibility without emulation..
After using AROS on my existing hardware, I can't see myself moving to a G4/G5. I think many users feel this way here in the USA and with cheap fast commodity hardware available, I can run WHATEVER OS I want on it. If Amiga decided to make the real AmigaOS available on x86, I'd probably pre-order at whatever cost in full just to see it developed...
On Hardware:
I worked from 1985-1991 for an Amiga Dealer. The difference in the computer market today vs then is hardware is now sold as a commodity wherever you go.. You spec out the machine you want, they find the lowest price. Machines are sold on price alone these days. You don't go in expecting support or any specialized hand holding or specialized solutions. If you buy a specialized system then you are buying from a system integrator.. Back in the days of Commodore-Amiga dealers this wasn't the case..
-Don
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@terminator: "As long as Linux is around in the server market, MS is going to be unable to charge what they think their commercial products are worth."
...or what Microsoft can gouge out from their monopoly position.
@terminator: "Linux is free. When you buy a commerical package, you are not paying for Linux, you are paying for the media, the packaging, and any additional materials the publisher supplies."
Linux is available for free; however, many companies pay for Linux services, so it's still not free. It's free only if you have employees to maintain it, but even that's not free because the company pays wages. It is cheaper, yes, but not free. The license is free, but that's all that is free.
@terminator: "Time for a reality check: At $10/install, Hyperion would be dropping development tommorrow. OS4 is included in the price of the A1 system. You buy an A1, you get OS4. If not, it may as well be free because the number of installs would exceed the number of legit copies. What's next? Demanding OS4 on floppies?"
I did say they *should* do it. It was merely an idea. However, I was making a point in what has been said in this thread regarding Linux being free. Since you (and others) think Linux is gaining ground because it is free, then AmigaOS could likewise gain grown if it was free according to the "Linux is free and that's why it's a threat to Microsoft" philosophy.
QNX was put on a 1.44MB floppy with TCP/IP, a web browser, webserver, and more goodies, so why not AmigaOS? BeOS was even better than Linux, but bad management killed Be off.
@DonnyEMU
I'll download AMOS and try it out. Don't know how well it'll do on my 1900+ AMD chipset.
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I'll download AMOS and try it out. Don't know how well it'll do on my 1900+ AMD chipset.
It should run great, if you have a Nvidia gfx card (and a SBLive! sound card), then it will be brilliant!
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@Waccoon
Like it or not, PPC and non-secured filesystems are the future of Amiga -- because Hyperion either didn't think about the future, or didn't want to.
Not sure about the thoughts on the filesystem, but as far as PowerPC is concerned, Hyperion did very well to think about the future and the latest news on the Cell processor will attest to that phenomenon.
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AmigaMac wrote:
@Waccoon
Like it or not, PPC and non-secured filesystems are the future of Amiga -- because Hyperion either didn't think about the future, or didn't want to.
Not sure about the thoughts on the filesystem, but as far as PowerPC is concerned, Hyperion did very well to think about the future and the latest news on the Cell processor will attest to that phenomenon.
Cell processor will attest to what? That Computer architecture is still plodding down the same old path?
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Cell processor will attest to what? That Computer architecture is still plodding down the same old path?
Old path? Well if you consider PowerPC old, then I guess x86 falls under ancient (and eventually history)!
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AmigaMac wrote:
Cell processor will attest to what? That Computer architecture is still plodding down the same old path?
Old path? Well if you consider PowerPC old, then I guess x86 falls under ancient (and eventually history)!
"Cell" is just a flashy buzzword... it will take time before anything general purpose will come from it.
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"Cell" is just a flashy buzzword... it will take time before anything general purpose will come from it.
Sorta like "Extreme" under Intel's Pentium line moniker, nothing really exciting beyond the hype marketing that drives the name?!
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AmigaMac wrote:
"Cell" is just a flashy buzzword... it will take time before anything general purpose will come from it.
Sorta like "Extreme" under Intel's Pentium line moniker, nothing really exciting beyond the hype marketing that drives the name?!
Exactly... though more like their HT hype...
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Exactly... though more like their HT hype...
True, true :-P
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bloodline wrote:
"Cell" is just a flashy buzzword... it will take time before anything general purpose will come from it.
"Cell" is a phone :lol:
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bloodline wrote:
I'll download AMOS and try it out. Don't know how well it'll do on my 1900+ AMD chipset.
It should run great, if you have a Nvidia gfx card (and a SBLive! sound card), then it will be brilliant!
Yes, I have Nvidia. I have SoundBlaster 128, but it conflicts with my ASUS mobo, so I'm using that evil integrated sound that Amiga pioneered that everyone thought was too limiting. Hopefully I'll have time tonight to download AROS and test drive it; been busy last few evenings for some reason.