PS3 security is "epic fail"

[ciento]

The term was used by the researchers who presented it at the 27C3. I've just seen the entire presentation, and I can understand why they called it "epic fail".
.

:lol: By removing otheros, sony poured gasoline on themselves,
then challenged the linux coders to a duel using flamethrowers. :roflmao:
Can't get much more epic than that!

[AJCopland]

What is "epic" about the whole affair is how much effort Sony spent on this product, how long it took to become marginally profitable, how long Sony plans to keep this product alive, and yet how little leverage is required to undo these efforts. Feet of clay, etc.

What really surprised me about this was that it's taken so long. If you've ever dealt with the Sony PS3 API's you'd see what an absolute house of cards it is. Not to mention and flaky piece of crap

[AmigaNG]

I have to say I dont like the attitude on here, of them coders and off other sites towards Sony, they make the ps3 its their product so they get to decide what should and shouldn't be allowed on it, if you don't like it, dont support them and get your self a cheap Linux box for all your home brew you could ask for.  
 

 One the main reason I have not got a apple product, like the iphone or an ipad is because of its controlling nature and not allow flash and other things, shore I could buy their product and get it hacked to allow me to use some of this stuff, but then I'm supporting the company that I don't really agree with. Thats why I'm much more interested in company that are a lot more open like http://www.fungp.com/ and supporting them.
 

 I'm pretty sure the only reason that OtherOS was removed was due to hack made with that option being open, so they had to close it off, but once one way is found around the hack usually loads more follow so I'm not surprised its happened, I just dont agree with the way the hacker are spinning it that the only reason they did it was due to Sony pulling linux support.  
 
Still at least they got blue ray to protect it kind off, as to download 50gb games will take ages and the extra expense of blue ray still make ps3 bit of a problem for pirates, which I'm happy about.
 
 Everyone says that piracy doest do any harm to these big multimillion pound companies and they deserver it, but everyone forgets about the middle men, I mean recently where I live Blockbuster has closed down and gaming, cds and dvd sections are disappearing off the shelves, why partly because of things going digital, mp3 etc, plus online shopping but I think a bigger reason for it happing so quick is because more and more people are pirating games and movies.  
 
I also believe its why so many publisher gave up on the Amiga more quickly because piracy was pretty bad on the Amiga, I mean you had all the tools to make copies of software with every Amiga sold.

[Tension]

 Everyone says that priatcey doest do any harm to these big multimillion pound companies and they deserver it, but everyone forgets about the middle men

They do deserve it.  Every bit of it.  And the middle men are $%#@.  I'm glad they're going bust.

[cv643d]

Makes sense and is good if it leads to PS3 with 3TB HD full of games and in game reset enabled on joypads. I have missed this functionality on these consoles,

XBOX established this level of usage, aka level 1 - unlocked and ready to blow.

[Iggy]

I have to say I dont like the attitude on here, of them coders and off other sites towards Sony, they make the ps3 its their product so they get to decide what should and shouldn't be allowed on it, if you don't like it, dont support them and get your self a cheap Linux box for all your home brew you could ask for.  
 

 One the main reason I have not got a apple product, like the iphone or an ipad is because of its controlling nature and not allow flash and other things, shore I could buy their product and get it hacked to allow me to use some of this stuff, but then I'm supporting the company that I don't really agree with. Thats why I'm much more interested in company that are a lot more open like http://www.fungp.com/ and supporting them.
 

 I'm pretty sure the only reason that OtherOS was removed was due to hack made with that option being open, so they had to close it off, but once one way is found around the hack usually loads more follow so I'm not surprised its happened, I just dont agree with the way the hacker are spinning it that the only reason they did it was due to Sony pulling linux support.  
 
Still at least they got blue ray to protect it kind off, as to download 50gb games will take ages and the extra expense of blue ray still make ps3 bit of a problem for pirates, which I'm happy about.
 
 Everyone says that piracy doest do any harm to these big multimillion pound companies and they deserver it, but everyone forgets about the middle men, I mean recently where I live Blockbuster has closed down and gaming, cds and dvd sections are disappearing off the shelves, why partly because of things going digital, mp3 etc, plus online shopping but I think a bigger reason for it happing so quick is because more and more people are pirating games and movies.  
 
I also believe its why so many publisher gave up on the Amiga more quickly because piracy was pretty bad on the Amiga, I mean you had all the tools to make copies of software with every Amiga sold.

I actually I understand and acknowledge the principles your discussing. And I do believe that creators of a product deserve to be paid for their work.
But I still find it a little offensive that a manufacturer would think that once they've sold me something, that they still have control over how I use it.
I can understand Sony's concerns, but what about people who bought the PS3 for the 'Other OS' option and then later had that feature removed from a item already in their possession? In a way, I view that as deceptive and a form of theft.

Further, it has never been my intent to use an unlock PS# console to hack or run pirated software. Rather, I would orefer full access to the hardware when running an alternate OS rather than have that access intentionally crippled by Sony's restrictions placed via the hypervisor.

This is a curious issue, Yes its Sony's intellectual propert, but once I buy it, if I don't seek to use it to disseminate pirated software, do I not have the right to do with my own property whatever I see fit?

Apparently thanks to the Digital Mellenium Copyright Act I do not. Nor is it legal anymore to transcode cds to MP3, backup software, or do many other things that were taken for granted as fair use once I bought a prpduct up until recently.

Frankly, this is why I don't own a PS3 or any recent Apple product nor do I intend to purchase hardware or software from these companies.

Remember, it was Sony via BMG that was installing rootkit software onto people computers when they used their audio CDs up until a few years ago who asking permission to install software first. This lead to a class action suiy that Sony lost. I know, I received new copies of all my Sony/BMG CDs because of this and was awarded several additionasl CDs.
'
Sony's obcession with DRM and copyright protection goes overboard far too many times and its easy to side with those poised against their interests.

[olsen]

What really surprised me about this was that it's taken so long. If you've ever dealt with the Sony PS3 API's you'd see what an absolute house of cards it is. Not to mention and flaky piece of crap

I guess if you're paying for the privilege of having Sony grant you permission to publish your software on their grand entertainment device, you don't want to jeopardize your chances of selling the product by breaking the non-disclosure-agreement you signed with these guys

I can't say I know how the APIs look like. Given that they are not for intended to be used by a large number of developers, Sony can probably get away with anything. Sony is going to make money on the end product (games and whatnot), and not on the SDKs. So the latter might as well stink. And the industry certainly did complain about the programming model used by the CELL.

I own a 2nd generation PS3 (the fat one) and I've seen my share of poor ports of AAA titles. You don't get that kind of poor quality software unless the API were something of a let-down.

[gertsy]

They do deserve it.  Every bit of it.  And the middle men are xxxx.  I'm glad they're going bust.

If da man don't make da profit, da man don't make da product.

It's a simple rule.   The products we like aren't there because we like them.  They are there because they make a profit and they tell us we like them.

I wonder if a US crowd started selling pirated Guinness to the detriment of the local industry how defensive of trademark and copyright laws we might become.....

There are plenty of 7 YO laptops around to install linux on anyway.

[olsen]

I have to say I dont like the attitude on here, of them coders and off other sites towards Sony, they make the ps3 its their product so they get to decide what should and shouldn't be allowed on it, if you don't like it, dont support them and get your self a cheap Linux box for all your home brew you could ask for.  

I do not entirely disagree with this notion, but the situation is loaded. If the only way to do make this kind of business work revolves around taking away rights from the consumer (DMCA and whatever pressure was applied to other countries in the free world on behalf of industries such as Sony represents, in order to make something very much like it happen overseas) then something is wrong.

I'm not saying that voting with your wallet is the wrong approach, in principle. But even if you don't care about the PS3 (it's an entertainment device: you don't have to have one to lead a satisfied life), there are still the side-effects caused by the legal machinations without which a product such as the PS3 would have to survive on its technical merits alone. This sort of thing is essentially unjust.

One the main reason I have not got a apple product, like the iphone or an ipad is because of its controlling nature and not allow flash and other things, shore I could buy their product and get it hacked to allow me to use some of this stuff, but then I'm supporting the company that I don't really agree with. Thats why I'm much more interested in company that are a lot more open like http://www.fungp.com/ and supporting them.

Apple has always worked in this manner once they managed to crack the mass market. Look at the original 1984 Macintosh operating system design. If management had gotten its way, it would have been even more restricting than it always was. Shades of the past: the same philosophy came back with the iPhone, the iPad and the App Store.

Vote with your wallet. I'd be glad to do so, but four years ago the choices open to somebody who needed to replace his laptop were so dire that only Apple had something useful to offer. As long as they ship a POSIX operating system on their computers, with tools to develop software for it, not everything is lost.

I'm pretty sure the only reason that OtherOS was removed was due to hack made with that option being open, so they had to close it off, but once one way is found around the hack usually loads more follow so I'm not surprised its happened, I just dont agree with the way the hacker are spinning it that the only reason they did it was due to Sony pulling linux support.  

Dropping Linux support (it wasn't even working that well, on account of the Hypervisor squeezing the life out of that sorry framebuffer display device) didn't really solve anything. I bet you five Euros that the decision to drop Linux support came about because it was the most cost-effective short term solution. The long term solution would have been to fortify the system's security foundations, which obviously didn't work out so well.

Still at least they got blue ray to protect it kind off, as to download 50gb games will take ages and the extra expense of blue ray still make ps3 bit of a problem for pirates, which I'm happy about.
 
 Everyone says that piracy doest do any harm to these big multimillion pound companies and they deserver it, but everyone forgets about the middle men, I mean recently where I live Blockbuster has closed down and gaming, cds and dvd sections are disappearing off the shelves, why partly because of things going digital, mp3 etc, plus online shopping but I think a bigger reason for it happing so quick is because more and more people are pirating games and movies.  

I don't think so. The cost of delivering the service has changed profoundly with the availability of cheaper broadband internet connections. Netflix rolled up Blockbuster, and although their business may not last, it's going to be very tough to compete against video on demand with a selection of games and movies stocked at a local brownstone building in every major city.

I expect the studios to eventually cut out the middle man and go into the business providers such as Netflix currently run for them.

I also believe its why so many publisher gave up on the Amiga more quickly because piracy was pretty bad on the Amiga, I mean you had all the tools to make copies of software with every Amiga sold.

The Amiga had a hard time making a dent in the market in the US. And while it was something of a power in Europe, there was no global market you could make much of a business in the way it is possible today. The rise of the IBM PC compatible and eventually the games consoles finally did the Amiga in. That and Commodore's lack of interest in their own platform.

The piracy angle was part of that meltdown, but it was not the only burning fuse.

[stefcep2]

I have to say I dont like the attitude on here, of them coders and off other sites towards Sony, they make the ps3 its their product so they get to decide what should and shouldn't be allowed on it, if you don't like it, dont support them and get your self a cheap Linux box for all your home brew you could ask for.  
 

 One the main reason I have not got a apple product, like the iphone or an ipad is because of its controlling nature and not allow flash and other things, shore I could buy their product and get it hacked to allow me to use some of this stuff, but then I'm supporting the company that I don't really agree with. Thats why I'm much more interested in company that are a lot more open like http://www.fungp.com/ and supporting them.
 

 I'm pretty sure the only reason that OtherOS was removed was due to hack made with that option being open, so they had to close it off, but once one way is found around the hack usually loads more follow so I'm not surprised its happened, I just dont agree with the way the hacker are spinning it that the only reason they did it was due to Sony pulling linux support.  
 
Still at least they got blue ray to protect it kind off, as to download 50gb games will take ages and the extra expense of blue ray still make ps3 bit of a problem for pirates, which I'm happy about.
 
 Everyone says that piracy doest do any harm to these big multimillion pound companies and they deserver it, but everyone forgets about the middle men, I mean recently where I live Blockbuster has closed down and gaming, cds and dvd sections are disappearing off the shelves, why partly because of things going digital, mp3 etc, plus online shopping but I think a bigger reason for it happing so quick is because more and more people are pirating games and movies.  

I agree with all this.  The standard BS argument is:"I bought it so I can do what I want with it".  No.  You bought hardware plus an agreement on what you could and could not do with that hardware.  Sony has the right to take steps that ensure the hardware is used as it intended, even if that means to add or remove features-like support for OtherOS.  You don't agree? Don't buy the hardware.

BTW all those up in arms about Linux support being removed is just a red herring: the % would be miniscule, there are cheaper an better ways to run Linux, and if you don't upgrade the firmware, you can still do it, but then you won't get Sony's FREE online service, but why would that matter, you can run Linux, right?

Yeah, and our Blockbuster is gone too.  

I also believe its why so many publisher gave up on the Amiga more quickly because piracy was pretty bad on the Amiga, I mean you had all the tools to make copies of software with every Amiga sold.

Amiga was and is a dirty word to many software houses for this very reason.  The ratio I've read is anywhere from 10:1 to 20:1 Pirated:Genuine.  It was even happening when the platform was on its last legs and the big names had left, and all we had was the odd bedroom programming team, or small independent programmers publishing on their own or through small publishers.

[AmigaNG]

I find it funny that people are all blaming Sony for the removal of the OtherOS feature and not the people who have clearly misused it and did more with it than they where meant too, there the people to blame for this. Sony didn't have to included otherOS as a feature at all, but most likely thought it would help research projects, military applications, schools and a few geeks to use the PS3 in a different manner and do more than just play games, I commend Sony for attempting it. But clearly the end users cant be trusted with a feature if its going be misused.  
 

 Anyone who has a fat ps3 can still I think do a complete restart to factory settings and restore the otherOS feature, you just miss out on the psn and some of the recent games that require the new firmware which I think was an acceptable compromises.   If your still not happy you should be able to get a full refund due to the change of the End user Agreement.
 

 Dont get me wrong I don't defend Sony, or any other company for its copyright protection methods, but I understand its a necessary evil for them to try and protect their work, I do think they go after the wrong people and just target general consumer with DRM, removing feature and other copyright crap that just doest work and usally result in the hack hardware or software being better than the actual product, examples:- no need to be online all the time to just play a offline game, no need for the disks to be in the drive doing nothing, no need to phone up or regs all your personal details with these companies etc.. They should really be going after the people who are uploading the stuff and breaking/hacking there products and not effecting the general users.
 
Its sad that MGM gone bust and ok a lot was down to bad management but according to a few statics the most pirated film is Quantum of Solace so thanks folks for no more bonds.  Plus a lot of cinema's where on the verge of being closed down its only thanks to the success or 3d in the cinema that a lot have stayed open. Again the middle men are affected, the big exeecs and Hollywood stars with their millions are the last to be effected just the poor sod who work in the shops, or at the cinema.

[kedawa]

I think it's pretty exciting when you think of the possibilities.
I don't have much intereset in running linux on arbitrary hardware, but the potential for homebrew apps and emulation are greater on the PS3 than any other console.
Hopefully it will be possible at some point to play new games without being forced to update to the newest firmware.
I've never been comfortable with the idea that the manufacturer can force updates in order to play new games, although in fairness Sony's updates have been less drastic than Microsoft's in general.

[ElPolloDiabl]

Quantum of Solace was crap compared to Casino Royale. Plus it was other bad films that brought them down. Not piracy. I think you are a troll.

[AmigaNG]

That is I think the first time I been called a troll
:banana::banana::banana:

Now I know I'm part of the Amiga scene!

This what i think they should be doing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALZZx1xmAzg&feature=fvsr

[billt]

I have to say I dont like the attitude on here, of them coders and off other sites towards Sony, they make the ps3 its their product so they get to decide what should and shouldn't be allowed on it, if you don't like it, dont support them and get your self a cheap Linux box for all your home brew you could ask for.

I think the biggest irritant about all this is that Sony marketed PS3 as a Linux machine for so long, and then removed it from the older boxes that claimed to work with Linux when purchased. Like they said in the video, no one really bothered much with hacking the PS3 until Sony took away something that they bought it for, and was part of the machine when they bought it. When Sony (illegally?) removed an advertized feature, they're just trying to get it back. I see no foul in that.

[billt]

I agree with all this.  The standard BS argument is:"I bought it so I can do what I want with it".  No.  You bought hardware plus an agreement on what you could and could not do with that hardware.  Sony has the right to take steps that ensure the hardware is used as it intended, even if that means to add or remove features-like support for OtherOS.  You don't agree? Don't buy the hardware.

I'm surprised by such sentiment in an Amiga forum. We're the guys that put our motherboards into tower cases, doing a lot of work to make it happen. We have build yourself CPU accelerators, added PAL/NTSC switches to single mode computers, there's CHIP RAM addons like MegaChip, video flickerfixers like Indivision, and PCI busses like Prometheus and Mediator. If we're supposed to f-ing leave stuff the way it came from the factory, then there's a heck of a boatload of wrongdoing in our entire history.

If you want me to abide by some agreement to not tinker with the things I buy, then put it on the OUTSIDE of the friggin box so I know it before I pay up. If I don't get an opportunity to know such things until after I've paid, sorry, I really don't feel very strongly bound by it.