1080 vs 1084

[save2600]

You don't notice 1/4 of the screen missing? Chopped off?

[mr_a500]

No, it is exactly as the 1084. PAL is cut off a bit - unless you adjust the V-Height - no different from the 1084.

[save2600]

It's not that simple. The V-height in every single 1080 I have ever owned and spent time with (at least a dozen), has never allowed for proper PAL viewing. I currently own three and NONE of them allow me to view PAL images in their entirety.

Yes, you can stretch the V-height, and move it slightly upwards with the other pot, but there is still severe cropping. You're simply moving the image up from the bottom, what do you think happens to the image at the top?

Perhaps most people are accustomed to viewing this way? (cropped) or are used to using their native broadcast system - I dunno.

[mr_a500]

"Severe cropping"? You must have some strange versions of the 1080 because mine, as I said, is no different from my four 1084 monitors in the display of PAL screens. With V-Height adjusted, you can view the entire PAL screen. I don't keep mine like that though because everything ends up looking squashed. I have my 1080 set up to display 692x482 (NTSC) as seen in this screenshot.

[save2600]

Sorry, I'm talking about the application of commercial games of course :-)  - which are very strict in their graphics modes. Not Workbench editable screenmodes w/ overscan prefs, etc. Also not talking about opening up the monitor and playing around with the V-width pot or an H-width pot that doesn't exist. If memory serves, the latter is in the form of a resistor (strange it's not a coil), that could be substituted with a variable resistor (pot). Hmm....

In any event: V-height adjustment on a 1080 is in the rear and requires a very small and precise screwdriver that only allows for so much tolerance. Vertical Hold is the adjustment I was talking about that allows you to (barely) move the image upwards in order to display *most* of the PAL image (and in doing so, you crop off some of the top obviously). But... going back to NTSC, given you've adjusted your 1080 for PAL modes, is a PITA to get back to normal. 1080 sucks as a multi-system monitor plain and simple.

[TjLaZer]

Yes the 1080 does do PAL but it is not 100% like on a real PAL monitor.  The 1084P does both PAL and NTSC perfectly.  What I mean by that is the screen is completely visible.  Like load up a WB 1.3 disk and break to CLI, expand the window.  It fits perfectly in PAL and NTSC.  No need to fiddle with the height knob on the back!

[mr_a500]

I still don't know what you're talking about. I can run PAL games and PAL demos (not Workbench modes) perfectly fine  without "severe cropping". As I said, in my experience, there is absolutely no difference in viewing PAL screens on a 1080 and a 1084. (...and I assume that was the point of this conversation)


Edit: My reply was to save2600 - on the difference between 1080 and 1084, not to TjLaZer on the benefits of 1084P. Of course having complete PAL visible without fiddling or squashing would be best.

[save2600]

@mr_a500:

I'm confused... so you're admitting multi-region viewing in its entirety is not possible without major fiddling (because that has been my experience)? If not, I think it is *you* that have the special 1080's in your country!  :-D

I *will* drag a couple of 1080's upstairs tomorrow and give them a whirl on my A2500 with its fattest Aggie and easily switchable PAL/NTSC modes for fooks sake. But it really sounds like you have tweaked your particular monitor(s) to look 'acceptable' in either mode and that you are just not familiar enough with the difference between the two.  

As evidenced by their design, Commodore released these early computers and peripherals to be region specific. It was not until a generation or two later that we had Agnus and multi-system capable monitors at our disposal.

[barney]

Another great benefit on the 1084 model was its screen adjustment dials.  You are able to resize the screen and move in in both vertical and horizontal directions.  I don't believe the 1080 is as user friendly in this area.

Barney

[save2600]

Precisely, even though those necessary PAL/NTSC squishing/expanding adjustments are in the rear. Keep in mind though, all of this doesn't mean a hoot if you've got an A1000 or a 512kb Chip Ram Agnus in your A500/A2000. You still ain't gonna get PAL to display properly, no matter how many dials you turn  :-(  

But yeah, nice that they put the Horizontal Phase adjustment in the front of the 1084SD1. The more adjustments the better I always say!   lol

[mr_a500]

I think it is *you* that have the special 1080's in your country!

You could be right. Not only that, but I think Canada got a cheap version of the 1084 without external adjustment knobs - so that's why I say there's no difference (in PAL display).

But it really sounds like you have tweaked your particular monitor(s) to look 'acceptable' in either mode and that you are just not familiar enough with the difference between the two.

Yes, I tweaked my monitors to look acceptable in either mode, but I am certainly familiar with the difference between the two. (Do you think I'm blind? I can tell in a second the difference between PAL and NTSC. I can even tell if one pixel is not right!)


Edit:
@save2600

Please stop editing your post so I can have a chance to properly reply!

I'm confused... so you're admitting multi-region viewing in its entirety is not possible without major fiddling (because that has been my experience)?

The whole point of discussion is the difference between 1080 and 1084, right? On both the 1080 and 1084, you have to do major fiddling to view PAL in its entirety (at least on the original 1084, not the 1084S or 1084D or 1084P). So what is your point?

[barney]

The funny thing is I spent all this money on a flicker fixer for my Amiga 2000, a nice 17" LCD and I thought I was in high heaven.  A few days ago, I plugged in an old 1080 and I got nostalgic.  I appreciated my Amiga more.  Games looked more fun and it felt like the good old days.

Barney

[TjLaZer]

Get the CLI tools "NTSC" and "PAL" and run them in a CLI and you will see what i'm talking about.  Switching from PAL to NTSC on the fly in WB.  On a 1084P the screen adjusts nicely, on the 1080 it does not.  PAL displays but it's not like it should (ie bottom can be chopped off)  Now of course you can adjust the vertical to have a squashed NTSC screen and PAL will look ok!  But that's cheating...

[save2600]

@mr_A500:

Didn't mean to imply you were blind! :lol:

Getting dead tired here, but God knows there's always room for error here, but AFAIK in the U.S., even the earliest 1084's (plural, not 's') handled PAL as appropriately as the exterior controls would allow. By that I mean, yes... we've always had to adjust the vertical height and positioning in the back (1084+), but it would fill the entire screen at least and you could see everything you were supposed to. When you wanted to revert to NTSC, it was a simple matter of doing the reverse.

The original point being (and maybe I should have phrased it a little differently) is that in my experience, the 1080's released to the U.S. will *always* crop a PAL image and that no amount of adjusting (posterior or internally) will change that fact. The chassis is simply not designed without modification to:

a) squish the image (no vertical length adjustment).
b) raise the screen up in order to view it in its entirety (vertical height is severely limited).

...gosh, did the 1942/1950/1960 even have these capabilities? It's been so long now, I'd have to look them up. Almost too tired to wait for my Mac to shut down. Sometimes it hangs if I have an SD card in it.  lol  Wish I was posting on my Amiga so I could just turn the tootin' thing off!  Goodnight!

[mr_a500]

Well I was going to say that what you say confirms that Canada had different 1080s.... but then I remembered that I bought my 1080 on eBay - from the US.

I suggest you open your 1080 and adjust it. You'll probably see that with a bit of fiddling, you can get PAL displayed properly. (..and if you don't want NTSC squashed, you can just crop PAL slightly - only losing the top & bottom 15 pixels - still useable for PAL games and demos)

Of course, a 1084P that you don't have to screw around with would probably be the best monitor to get.

[CLS2086]

Got a RARE 1081 and 1084S-P here in this 50 Hz RGB country.

Both support very well 50 and 60 Hz modes on the fly.

The 1081 is far supperior to the 1084S-P (even if they look like 2 twins).

But I got B&W when I put my Toshiba HDDVD player (composite out) on the 1081 with HDDVD(60Hz so NTSC...) and color with PAL DVD (50 Hz)...

Both well setted, I don't see crop like a tweaked "MonoFrequency" monitor.