A sad day

[Iggy]

Agreed, having re-read the statement it is really unprofessional to be honest!



It sounds like Amigakit have put their foot down regarding the next shipment of boards and the fact other markets need to be supplied first and Amiga on the Lake have just thrown there teddies out of the pram!

Amigakit have in my opinion given the US market exclusive first access to this product and this is how they are rewarded!

I can't speak for the behind the scene dealings but it sounds like ingratitude to me.

SO...exactly WHAT do YOU think you know about business or being a professional?
I have no idea what happened, but this guy invested money in this, AND in order to sustain a retail business, you have to make a profit, WHICH involves sales AND have product to sell.

Aeon and AmigaKit have always been run like hobbies, rather than professional businesses.
"We have the product..but we're not selling it yet", "We are selling the product, be not in your region yet....unless you call us, then maybe we'll work out a special deal just for you", "OS4.2 is irrelevant...even IF you WERE promised a copy when available (whenever that small miracle occurs)", "Tabors FPU isn't important (even IF the ENTIRE base of your software is incompatible with it"...

Need I go on?

I have had my own issues with the company when they sold me an Amiga to PS2 mouse adapter that simply does not work. AND they still continue to sell this device.

I'd still like to obtain a P5040 based X5000, but honestly, these guys are about as lousy at marketing as the Stanley brothers were.

So you want to throw around the word "professional"?
Better not use it in the Amiga arena, because everyone there ought to be wearing red clown noses, and not as part of a fund raising event.

[Iggy]

Well put Iggy.

Let's pause for a moment and think about who has the most to lose in dropping the line that built your business. The distributor/mfg, or the reseller. I mean come on... painting a picture of sour grapes or hissy-fits and lack of gratitude is silly given this dealer's investment and hard work. I am pretty sure they were probably the biggest gift and shot in the arm that Amigakit has ever seen (maybe going on on a limb but ummm.... call another dealer and ask if they have stock for same-day shipment, I dare you... just a hunch, but a strong hunch)

ehh... I will just shut up. I just hate to see mud slung on a small business trying to make something happen in our crazy ass hobby.

My intent was not to "sling mud" at either AOTL or AmigaKit.
Rather, I felt a bit put out by that comment on "unprofessional" behavior.
I had money stashed in a gift certificate @ AOTL (for a future X5000 purchase) that I've just pulled out to buy an SSD for a MorphOS system.

Not a good situation, but I'm sure there is a reason for our only US Amiga vendor to back away from AmigaKit.
And while we may never know what this is, but I'm already affected by this, and its not a good situation.
I WON'T be paying for shipment of an X5000 across the Atlantic, so we'll have to see how AmigaKit compensates for this (because, while they operate a "US" store, they afair, do not have US warehouse facilities).

[Iggy]

@djomre

Yeah, the market is too small for this sort of petulance. Some respect for Trevor and Matthew wouldn't go a miss! Personally I'm glad that Amigakit have been able to start selling complete systems directly to UK customers and if that decision to divert stock away from third party suppliers was a factor in the 'throwing the teddies out of the pram' antics at Amiga on the Lake, then so be it. The market was always bigger in Europe anyway for Amigas.

Your logic is just another reason to consider NOT following through with my decision to support the X5000.
That is, IF I thought that this was the reason behind this, and I DON'T know.

So, unlike you, I'm not ready to throw anyone under the bus (that is, unless I ever happen to be at a bus stop with B. Hermans, ;-) just kidding there).

Respect for Matt and Trevor?
Sure, why not?
But I like Aaron, and assume he didn't come to this decision lightly.

SO, at this point, I'm not taking sides in the matter.

I did just place an order with AOTL though.
And I would have preferred to order my X5000 from a vendor in the US.

BTW - I got this as part of a return message related to my order "Thanks Jim. We WILL be doing other stuff to help AmigaOS4 and Morph and AROS trust me".
SO...does THAT sound disrespectful?
It sounds like a commitment to the community to me.

[Iggy]

@Iggy

Unprofessional is EXACTLY the term I'd use for the statement from Amiga on the Lake. In particular the sentance:



These sentiments wreaks of personal anger and bitterness rather than some cool level headed words communicating a sound business decision. I'm not saying running an Amiga retail business is easy but don't make this personal!! A simple statement about the "ceasing of all distribution of A-EON and Amigakit products due to an unforeseen conflict of interests" would have been more than sufficient.

Obviously we have a STRONG  difference of opinion here.
From my point of view, having been in the electronic retailing business, you don't make a decision like this lightly.

"... we have made the choice to no longer support A-EON or AmigaKit in any way, shape or form"

or

"ceasing of all distribution of A-EON and Amigakit products due to an unforeseen conflict of interests"

Who cares? Obviously there is a reason behind this, AND as this IS a business, NOT personal, I'd have to assume its a good one.

As such, AOTL still retains me as a customer.

Unlike AmigaKit, which has misquoted me on the forum about a complaint before, Aaron has never abused my trust.

They were doing a Server upgrade from an end of life version of Ubuntu.

Right in the middle of my editing of a comment.
Hmm, and Amiga.org and AmigaWorld are run by whom again? :hammer:

[Iggy]

i have to agree 110%. aaron has been incredible at customer service, and i seriously doubt that this it it a coincidence that this happens once amigakit offers the X5000 system to US, GB, and EU customers. just look at the pricing, and then ask why AOTL might not be able to match it. aaron is a stand-up guy. he wouldn't pull any drama, and i have absolutely no doubt that he got tired of his treatment by amigakit, since they are the only source of A-EON stock to other dealers. i guess that means if i ever want to make another A-EON purchase, it will have to be via amigastore.eu instead.

i'm really sorry for aaron things turned out this way.

-- eliyahu

Thanks...this entire situation has left me with a headache (that's not a metaphor, I've got a really bad stress headache).
On "professional", I do NOT know what has happened, BUT you don't undercut your dealers (if you want to retain them), SO...IF that is what has happened....

Well..you all figure it out. I'm sitting here on a Sunday without a hangover STILL feeling like crap, with phrases like "its just a hobby", "the name is cursed", and "I'm relying on a very small group of companies, with an indefinite timetable to deliver the goods" going round my head.

Oh, and eliyahu?
"i'm really sorry for aaron things turned out this way. "

Again thanks, because it expresses my sentiments as well.

[Iggy]

I had the same thought but on this part:

What experience? What happened? Why do you not want to reiterate the grounds of your decision? Do you just want us to agree with you because '8 months of experience'? This kind of self-righteous yet 'mysterious' and not wanting to state facts -attitude makes me very wary.

Interesting logic, but for business, a bit flawed.
I don't know about the Netherlands, but in the US and Great Britain we don't always have the latitude to air our grievances.
It isn't "mysterious" or an "attitude", its reticence to detail exactly what during the '8 months of experience' put you off.

Personally, I'd call that consideration.
But, I'm sure you'll all harp on this to the point that some of it will come out.
In the meanwhile, we in the US just have to buy from Matt directly (which HAS had its complications), and I for one will still buy what I can from AOTL.

As I've said before, its our problem, not the Europeans.
But hey, after Britex, does a British company not playing well on the world stage surprise any of you?

I'm only hoping OUR government doesn't become that stupid.
After all, it IS a global market.

[Iggy]

gonna be tough to keep your mission statement with only ACube products since last I checked finding a new Sam460 or AOne 500 is pretty hard to come by.
They can do what Amigakit did and be a reseller for the Vampire/ Apollo Team though unless it could emulate PPC on the FPGA their mission statement is still gonna be hard to keep

Actually, it really sucks not having a US distributor for AmigaKit, Aeon or their product, since product returns now mean transatlantic shipping for US customers.

That being said, Aaron hasn't completely dropped support for X5000 related hardware, I ordered a cpu cooler/fan combo from him yesterday.
And he still has memory and drives in stock.
Its hardware he has to rely on Matt and company for that he's not carrying.
Which tells me that at some point Leaman Computing dropped the ball.

I never understood all the self-destructive infighting in the Amiga community, going back decades it seems. You'd think with such tiny market share overall, everyone would kind of be on the same team?  
 
 Pipe dream I guess.

Hmm, same team...
I use legacy hardware and more than one NG OS.
Sled dogs fighting in a whirling ball have more team spirit, because when they're done fighting they're off and running. :hammer:

[Iggy]

fair points, but i should point out that, no, despite belief to the contrary, a modern gaming PC with UAE does not run AOS4 faster than a X5000. oh, and it's not even $2,000, let alone $3,000. the A1222 should be much more reasonable, though.

that said -- the vampire is awfully hard to beat these days. if i had a spare amiga, that'd be my choice.

-- eliyahu

Well said, if you can get one. The only system I'd have that would work would be an A2000, and I've seen that done with an adapter card to the cpu slot for some reason.

And I don't think the X5000 is that high priced either.
OS4.1 under emulation is more of a "try it and see if you like it" solution.
And once MorphOS 3.10 is released, well...I can't run that via emulation.

So regardless of this thread, I'm still going to eventually have to go to Matt with my hat in my hand.

Besides, I really want to run the NG OS' with a Radeon HD 7770 or an R9 270X, not emulating a legacy RTG card.
And both OS4 and MorphOS should eventually support the same audio and video cards, so a tri-boot system with Linux will be possible.

[Iggy]

I think I get about 30 - 60% of the X5000 in terms of raw CPU performance running AmigaOS 4.1 under emulation on my Ryzen 1800X desktop. Maybe similar to the A1222?

As you mention there are other limitations. No hardware compositing means scrolling, animations etc. are jerky and slow, making web browsing painful and watching videos impossible. Also, only ~500 MB memory can be made available, even when running the emulation on a 64-bit OS. It's by no means the "full" AmigaOS 4 experience. More like a "demo/trial version".

However since I already own a ~$1000, 8-core desktop system with 16 GB of RAM and 8 GB VRAM, I would never spend twice that for half the clockspeed, a quarter of the cores and a 4 years old GPU. The A1222 however looks very interesting to me as a secondary/hobby system, while still using my main PC for more compute heavy tasks and gaming.

The only problem with that compromise is you get similar performance to your emulated system, but it is more affordable and you get video support.
I'm just not interested in using a cpu with a crippled fpu.

I'm with Acill on the whole X5000 price thing but what we are talking about here is a new USA vendor of NG Amiga stuff who has pretty much thrown in the towel in less than a year due to some falling out with A-EON and Amigakit. Having had the pleasure of meeting both Trevor and Matthew at Amiwest I know both to be genuine stand up guys who love the Amiga with a passion. So I find it hard to believe they would be the aggressor in whatever happened here.

I think AOTL may just have been premature since the stock of 'complete' X5000s doesn't seem to be that high based on the original cases being out of stock and the black keyboards in short supply. Perhaps they should have waited until the A1222 came out and the boards available in large numbers before beginning such a venture.

I do wish AOTL continued success though and hope selling other Amiga-related stuff keeps them afloat.

Who knows if the limited supply of X5000s was the only (or even the primary) reason?
It hasn't been stated, but whether Trevor or Matt are stand up guys or not, the supply issues, delays, pricing and marketing schemes are completely bizarre.

As I've said before, its our Spinal Tap moment, or "(Our) appeal has become more selective". :hammer:

[Iggy]

Hence Tabor, I pushed for a low cost board.

The approximately 400 pound board with less performance than a Raspberry Pi 3, and a crippled fpu?

I pushed for a low cost board too, but I'm NOT buying that piece of crap.

Not when emulation at similar performance levels cost less than $70.

That's kind of pointless.

I am still interested in a P5040 based X5000, BUT when it becomes available I may have to have it shipped from Great Britain.
That seriously sucks, and for that matter, it increases the chances I'll receive a damaged system (so, I'm more likely to buy the motherboard alone).

[Iggy]

The real question is :
Do US customers cease to buy the X5000 computers from AOTL to buy them directly from AmigaKit?
If yes then it is a problem, if not why care?

Kamelito

It WAS a consideration.

Further, I would NOT recommend transatlantic shipment for a complete system (too expensive, and too likely to incur damage)
So, for us, the best bet is motherboard only purchases (and for those that don't want to build a system, another negative).

That being said, while I like Aaron (and will continue to buy what I can from him), I decided not to shoot myself in the foot.

Outside of the T2080 laptop project, this is probably my last PPC system.
You all can have Tabor, I already have G4 performance level hardware.

And I'm hoping by 2020 or so to be using an X64 based system.

[Iggy]

_____________________

Iggy,  while I share your concern about ordering from overseas & would prefer to be able to order from AOTL, when I ordered my AmigaOne X1000 in Dec. of 2012, it arrived in less than 4 days from Cardiff & in good condititon, so no complaints about AmigaKit's service.

I'm actually not that concerned about AmigaKit in this equation, its the handling by shippers.
I ship overseas regularly, and its brutal on packages.

[Iggy]

So many distinctions and distractions..

Has This thread has been about profit (theirs or ours) or who do you love?
At first AOTL and its need to show it;s anger when that was threatened?
And as the threads continued to show that love in

;As the Amiga World Turned
First, for your consideration..

Is and has AmigaKit been a  store selling various products? Yes.
Has AmigaKit been based in England? Yes.
Has it been a problem for Amigans in the U.S.? Yes.
Has it done a perfect job. No. Not bad but not perfect.
Over all, Matthew was considered a saving grace for most Amigans after ALL the amiga stores closed.
At that time we loved Matthew as the owner of AmigaKit.

But now, AmigaKit is perceived as a distributor (and other things), by selling to other retail stores.
By luck and intent, Matthew is an owner of a store, AmigaKit. He also became a distributor as well as a partner in a manufacturing company A-Eon. Why? He was one of the few willing to risk his money!

But, as these companies all are different legal entities.

With the advent of the Internet, we are offered items to buy from the manufactures, distributors and the retail stores, even individuals.
So
AmigaKit gets to sell to us.
A-Eon gets to choose to have AmigaKit distribute.
If you dont like this close arrangement, just buy out Matthew (or Trevor)

One of the reasons we love AOTL was that Aaron (good cust service) but his prices werent great.
I know I wanted to support him as a new dealer so I bought a video card and other stuff. Another reason, the extra cost of freight might be lower (Iggy/Jim likes the fact he could drive to the store and save freight and return broken things without the hassle of return freight etc.) Thats why he loves AOTL, at this time) Might not be the case if AOTL was in CA.

But Consider freight, which we dont love, it cost money to get things (people too) somewhere..trucks, trains, planes, fuel, drivers etc. Still have to pay.. even if it says free shipping

Next thing to consider is this business AOTL stating ;in any way, shape or form; WOW!
I remember the days when the discounters lobbied to change the keystone retail prices here in CA.
The retailers hated it undercutting their prices. Then the law changed, then it was the discounters hating other dealers undercutting their profit. And so forth

A-Eon (Trevor) paid what was needed to make brand new custom boards,
AmigaKit (Matthew) has to manage his costs to be able to sell those boards.
AOTL (Aaron) has to manage his business.

Trevor, just Thanks. I love my X5000!!!

I can't counter any of that.
Basically, sucks to be Aaron.
And his business has been a boon to me.

BTW - His OWC pricing isn't bad, but you're not going to be able to do anything with AmigaKit prices if you're in direct competition with the distributor (you basically take whatever margin he offers you).

So, maybe that last point explains a possible reason for part of Aaron's dissatisfaction.
Just a possibility, but...

And not one any of us can counter as we don't know what the margins made by dealers amounts to.
BUT, if you're in a business, and that margin sucks, yeah you have a right to be unhappy.

Could Aaron have dropped AmigaKit hardware without complaint or explanation?
Yeah, but if this somewhat forensic analysis is correct, in his place I'm not sure I would either.

So, a limited supply of a product with a %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!ty margin?
Sounds like a good reason to complain.

[Iggy]

Jesus you guys dislike the Welsh that much?
Makes me like them better.
But then, I'm Irish, and I've always felt...well _ the English.
After all, it would only be returning the favor.

Since your plantations did make Ireland a mass exporter of food during the potato famine (in other words, you let us starve, in the name of profit).

BUT, that's wholly off topic.

And if everyone of European decent held long term grudges, well...no one would be talking.

Tell it to the colon-ists. (really big grin)

My maps don't have any of those place names.

aka laughing boy (what is that guy in the red shirt doing?)

BTW, I fixit already

As to who's colon was involved...I've believe it was yours. :hammer:
Twice if I'm not mistaken.

Proud to be from a country that kicked "Great" Britain's ass. :lol:

After all, what's so great about it?
That you were all being buggered by the Roman Empire at one point?
Or that your dumb enough to look back on the concept of "Empire" fondly?

Except for the Magna Carta, Common Law, and a language, your contributions to us have been...limited.

And on THAT low note, I'm off for the night, because even I'm not comfortable being this stupid (really...colon...ists?).

[Iggy]

Ahh, Nationalism: Teaches you to be proud of sh1t you didn't do and hate people you've never met.

Keeping the stupid occupied since time immemorial.....

Thanks Nik,
I think at least you understand that I was just trying to set a fire under the Brits.
And it IS just banter.
Scots, the Welsh, the Irish...I think we've all traditional enjoyed tweaking the noses of friends in the Empire for some time.

Its far too easy.

AND you ARE right, this whole situation about AOTL (and no doubt other distributors) is bound to come out eventually.

BTW - Those last comments last night were due, in part, because I was in the middle of a bad migraine, right after a late visit to my alma mater.
So, I acknowledge they were unduly harsh.