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Author Topic: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS  (Read 14741 times)

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Offline Hattig

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #209 from previous page: February 13, 2015, 11:03:39 PM »
Quote from: kolla;783552
Then CD32 is also not a 32bit console, and no m68k Amiga ever, for that matter.


Reading this thread, I remember why so many people have left Amiga.org, and also why many people give up on their personal Amiga hardware projects.

The A600 is a 32-bit computer (native register size) with 24-bit addressing (16MB), and a 16-bit ALU and data bus.

As this argument is all about addressing gigabytes of memory, then we have to take the addressing aspect. 24-bit. That's not 32-bit. End of story. You need to replace the main CPU in the A600 with one that has 32-bit addressing to get that capability.

And yes, this goes for the A1200 and CD32 as well, because they only have a 24-bit address bus on their CPUs. However the data bus is 32-bit, and the ALU is 32-bit, as well as the native 32-bit registers, so we can call the CD32 a 32-bit system, especially since it came out at a time when games consoles came with very little memory (the 2MB the CD32 was massive). Yet you could upgrade the CPU to get a full 32-bit address bus.

The A3000 or A4000 sed '030 and '040 CPUs with a 32-bit address bus from the beginning.

Anyway, the Vampire 600 is an amazing achievement (even with the old core, never mind the new core), and I think it is rude and unrealistic for people to expect it to have 2GB, and that because it doesn't it is somehow rubbish or sub-par.
 

Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #210 on: February 13, 2015, 11:22:02 PM »
Quote from: Hattig;783911
The A600 is a 32-bit computer (native register size) with 24-bit addressing (16MB), and a 16-bit ALU and data bus.

Watch that heresy, someone might come along and call you a dumbass for it!  :lol:
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Offline Hattig

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #211 on: February 13, 2015, 11:28:12 PM »
Haha.

Anyway, regardless of the New-ISA discussions, the main point is that there is something out there working today that works with the majority (all) the 68k Amiga code base, and does it very well, and that there is a new, generic board that should be even faster and expandable (and I'm sure we'll see a video of Quake on an A500 at some point).
 

Offline kolla

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #212 on: February 13, 2015, 11:35:06 PM »
Hattig's respons was perfectly fine, he confirmed that A600 is a 32bit computer, and that if you let "default CPU" dictate, then neither CD32 nor A1200 are fully 32bit either. Which was exactly the point. As long as you work with CBM Amiga computers and AmigaOS as we know it, then 32bit is your limiting factor for memory addressing.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
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Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #213 on: February 13, 2015, 11:46:16 PM »
Quote from: kolla;783922
then neither CD32 nor A1200 are fully 32bit either. Which was exactly the point

Which was exactly *my* point.  Thankyouverymuch for finally drinking the Kool-Aid.

Sincerely,
Jim Jones

;)
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Offline wawrzon

Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #214 on: February 13, 2015, 11:51:07 PM »
guys, could you quit this nitpicking? the actual subject is much more interesting and constructive, also the isa discussion.
 

Offline ShK

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #215 on: February 14, 2015, 10:46:12 AM »
Quote from: Hattig;783911
The A600 is a 32-bit computer (native register size) with 24-bit addressing (16MB), and a 16-bit ALU and data bus.

As this argument is all about addressing gigabytes of memory, then we have to take the addressing aspect. 24-bit. That's not 32-bit. End of story. You need to replace the main CPU in the A600 with one that has 32-bit addressing to get that capability.


Here is the A600's main CPU replaced with the Vampire 600 Accelerator:

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Offline Karlos

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #216 on: February 14, 2015, 11:34:09 AM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;783925
Which was exactly *my* point.  Thankyouverymuch for finally drinking the Kool-Aid.

Soap box time.

The problem is that the definition of "bitness" has changed over time. Today, it's pretty much the logical address / pointer size. Nobody really cares what the ALU and maximum integer operand size is, though in any architecture with general purpose registers (ie can be a pointer or integer) they tend to be the same width for obvious reasons.

In the early 80s, it was all about the ALU register / data bus size. 8-bit CPUs had 8 bit registers and did operations 8 bits at a time and performed 8-bit data transfers to/from memory/io.

However, every one of them that springs immediately to mind could use a pair of 8-bit register to define a 16-bit address. Most could even perform 16-bit register pair manipulation, for example incrementing or decrementing a whole 16-bit address at once. However, nobody ever considered them as anything other than strictly 8-bit.

In the 16-bit era, this paradigm was largely unchanged but architectures were starting to vary significantly. Some kept the 8-bit model of using pairs of registers to represent an address but individual registers, the ALU and data bus were still 16-bit.

Others, like our much loved 680x0 took a much longer term view. The 68000 had 32-bit wide registers for address and data. The ALU still worked on 16-bit halves at a time, transferred data 16 bits at a time and missed some 32-bit operations (32x32 multiply for example). However, it could still do the majority of 32-bit operations directly in hardware.

We called it 16-bit for want of a better description. It fit because of the data bus width/alignment but it didn't fit the internal register model nearly as well.

Under the current logical address/pointer size definition, it's definitely 32-bit. Nobody gives a rat's bumhole that it only had 24 of the 32 address bits exposed to the outside, neither did many early 32-bit processors or 64-bit ones. Physical connectivity is an implementation detail, especially when considering an architecture as a whole and not just a given chip in the family.

The 68020 is more clearly 32-bit in that it's ALU and data bus are 32-bit, but the EC version still has only 24 address bits exposed. The 32-bit era is where ALU and logical address size were really matched for the first time for almost all architectures. And that's where the "bitness" definition began to change to the present one. There were machines with 64-bit data / ALU but they didn't break the 32-bit logical address space. I guess the 4GiB limit became the new envelope to push against as processors were getting fast enough at crunching data but couldn't easily work on large enough sets of it.

Whether the 68000 is 16 or 32-bit simply depends on which decade's thinking you look at it from.
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Offline matthey

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #217 on: February 14, 2015, 11:56:47 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;784002

Whether the 68000 is 16 or 32-bit simply depends on which decade's thinking you look at it from.


The 68000 is a 16/32 bit hybrid (more 16 bit) and the 68020 is full 32 bits in my eyes. What is important is that the ISA was forward thinking enough to allow for 32 bit programs from the beginnning. Programs >64kB become less optimal with the 68000 ISA but programs that that were 32 bit clean with their pointers still work today. No memory bank switching or base registers are needed like most 16 bit processors. It's software that matters and good ISAs ;).
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #218 on: February 14, 2015, 12:56:47 PM »
Quote from: matthey;784007
The 68000 is a 16/32 bit hybrid (more 16 bit) and the 68020 is full 32 bits in my eyes.


I'd say that's late 80's view. Atari would have agreed, they marketed their 68000 machines in those terms.

Quote
It's software that matters and good ISAs ;).

Quite. And this is why I don't share what I take to be your pessimism (sorry if I've misinterpreted your objection) to Gunnar's augmentation to the 680x0.

The reason being that if he adds super awesome vector unit X and relaxes various existing restrictions, it won't make any difference to the corpus of existing software. As long as his implementation is compatible with existing object code and is faster than existing 68K solutions then I believe he's got the formula right. Most folks, myself included, want an affordable, performant accelerator card. I missed out on a good 68060 card when they were being sold originally and now they are like rocking horse poop with a price to match. Anything faster than my 040 is a result for me.

That said, I believe you are right to want some steering on any chages to the ISA. I am optimistic that this can happen simply because anything new requires software to be written for it. And unless he aims to write it himself then  cooperation with software guys is inevitable. I'm sure he wants any augmentation to be genuinely useful
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Offline matthey

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #219 on: February 14, 2015, 01:52:44 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;784015
Quite. And this is why I don't share what I take to be your pessimism (sorry if I've misinterpreted your objection) to Gunnar's augmentation to the 680x0.

The reason being that if he adds super awesome vector unit X and relaxes various existing restrictions, it won't make any difference to the corpus of existing software. As long as his implementation is compatible with existing object code and is faster than existing 68K solutions then I believe he's got the formula right. Most folks, myself included, want an affordable, performant accelerator card. I missed out on a good 68060 card when they were being sold originally and now they are like rocking horse poop with a price to match. Anything faster than my 040 is a result for me.

I supported doubling the number of FPU registers (I came up with 99% compatible 6888x compatible encodings) as it can be done in a consistent and orthogonal way. More than 2 scratch FPU registers is a big advantage so no FMOVEM is needed for 8 new scratch FPU registers (An updated ABI would be advantageus though). I support adding a vector unit with many vector registers. I don't support combining the integer unit(s) and vector units while adding non-orthogonal and larger integer/vector registers in whatever encoding whole can be found with whatever limitations from what can't be supported, Maximum FPGA optimization involves combining units but this is a bad idea as it becomes more complex and an ASIC becomes less likely. The ISA would only be usable by ultra-optimized 68k like FPGA cores (of which there will be only one) and the 68k ease of use will become like a DSP with all the funky registers (take a look at the StarCore DSP ISA for example). I would be very surprised if a compiler tries to take advantage of the extra vector/integer hybrid whatever registers and 68k assembler fans are likely to turn up their nose also, Gunnar's new ISA is like trying to force a square peg through a round hole but he has decided that the square peg is better and that he will have it at all costs.

Quote from: Karlos;784015
That said, I believe you are right to want some steering on any changes to the ISA. I am optimistic that this can happen simply because anything new requires software to be written for it. And unless he aims to write it himself then  cooperation with software guys is inevitable. I'm sure he wants any augmentation to be genuinely useful

Sure. Change and cooperation happen quickly in the Amiga realm. Maybe he will give up on his ISA in a few years after no compilers implement it but then he is mighty proud of it. Maybe Hyperion will eventually see the light of cooperating with the 68k Amiga masses before they go broke too.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 02:16:00 PM by matthey »
 

Offline biggunTopic starter

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #220 on: February 14, 2015, 02:07:48 PM »
Quote from: matthey;784019
Maximum FPGA optimization involves combining units but this is a bad idea as it becomes more complex and an ASIC becomes less likely.


interesting interesting.

You are aware that the people who have developed the APOLLO work as professionally FPGA and CPU designer, don't you?

You know that some of IBM fastest Accelerators and latest POWER chips were desinged by those people.

Offline matthey

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #221 on: February 14, 2015, 02:26:43 PM »
Quote from: biggun;784020

You are aware that the people who have developed the APOLLO work as professionally FPGA and CPU designer, don't you?

You know that some of IBM fastest Accelerators and latest POWER chips were desinged by those people.


Your time would be better spent writing up your ISA and submitting it to the GCC and LLVM maintainers along with your credentials. Olaf is the only one here who might make a backend with your ISA and he already knows your credentials.
 

Offline ElPolloDiabl

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #222 on: February 14, 2015, 02:34:13 PM »
@ Matthey
Could you tell us why you need an ASIC so badly? There is only one coldfire accelerator card for an Atari.

Seriously a $50 ras pi, must be a better choice for embedded systems. I don't feel a sudden need to control something from AmigaOS
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 03:17:46 PM by ElPolloDiabl »
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Offline biggunTopic starter

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #223 on: February 14, 2015, 03:04:11 PM »
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;784023
@ Matthey
Could you tell us why you need an ASIC so badly? There is only one coldfire accelerator card for an Atari.


This is all bollocks spread by one person.

There is nothing technically in APOLLO which prevents doing an ASIC.

Offline cunnpole

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #224 on: February 14, 2015, 03:13:01 PM »
Quote from: biggun;784026
There is nothing technically in APOLLO which prevents doing an ASIC.


I dont think anyone disputes that. The implication was just that it is less likely if we dont engage with, and make it attractive to, the types of people who could afford to build one with us.