Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Nlandas on March 31, 2012, 01:50:10 AM
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So, since I'm hoping beyond hope to win the 640 Million Mega Million Jackpot tonight, does anyone out there have a good idea of what it would cost to port/recode AmigaOS 4.x to run on x64 processors? I'd really love to see my beloved AmigaOS running on completely modern hardware.
On top of that how much would it take to fund a driver initiative to keep support for modern video cards, sound chipset, network chipsets, printers, scanners, etc.
Ok Trolls, I know the first answer you'll give is more than it's worth and the second is why would I want it without the custom chips it's not a real Amiga. So why not skip it and dream a long with me. I have millions to spend and just for fun, why not dream a long with me to be able to see AmigaOS running on almost any modern box out there with custom UAE support for running old applications.
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Since they wrote it from the ground up, 50p, if they knew what they were doing and did it right....
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http://www.demotivationalpics.com/albums/userpics/normal_demotiv_pic_0-dr-evil.jpg
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(http://www.demotivationalpics.com/albums/userpics/normal_demotiv_pic_0-dr-evil.jpg)
LOL! Classic..... I guess I can't afford it since at most I'd win only half a billion dollars.
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If you set a reference hardware platform specification, it shouldn't cost more than a few million.
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Shouldnt cost more than maybe $10k, and theoretically less.
AROS was ported to x86-64 by one person in a few months for only a couple of thousand. The same person also ported it to ppc, along with drivers, again in a few months for about $4k (iirc).
People seem to vastly over estimate the cost of these things. Porting to another architecture is a different kettle of fish than developing from scratch. The majority of the work is already done.
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It would cost the combined salaries of every programmer on the project for as long as it takes to complete it, plus overhead/administrative costs...
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Nothing. Just run AROS ;-)
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So, since I'm hoping beyond hope to win the 640 Million Mega Million Jackpot tonight, does anyone out there have a good idea of what it would cost to port/recode AmigaOS 4.x to run on x64 processors? I'd really love to see my beloved AmigaOS running on completely modern hardware.
On top of that how much would it take to fund a driver initiative to keep support for modern video cards, sound chipset, network chipsets, printers, scanners, etc.
Off the cuff, I'd say you would have to set a time frame (say, 1-2 years for the finished product to come out) and fund at least ten seasoned engineers to rebuild the whole operating system from the ground up, plus additional personnel for management, documentation, developer support and QA, and of course a project lead. I'm thinking that will take another 5-6 positions to fill.
Next thing, you have to figure out how much to pay everybody involved. I don't know about you, but my personal minimum hourly wage starts at 50€ (below that line I'll not be particularly happy working on whatever that pays for). If you're going to pay everybody at least that much, and that's not counting in taxes, insurance, etc. you'll have to fork out some 100,000€ per person employed per year. Note that this would be full-time employment, with 5 working days per week, at 8 hours per day.
That would make two years of work, and let's say 20 employees who all receive the same pay, which would account for 8,000,000€. This doesn't include costs for hardware, office rent, taxes, etc.
This figure is probably not too outlandish, but it's still high.
Note, too, that without nailing down the exact project requirements, which also will take its time, it's probably unwise to jot down cost limits and hire engineers.
Should you win that jackpot, give me a call. I might have one or two ideas how to relieve you of the burden of having too much money on your hands. Here's one for starters: talk to Oxfam.
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Nothing. Just run AROS ;-)
+1
Anything else would be a massive waste of time and money
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BeOs didn't succeed with x86. Some developers said that those who has originally used BeOs started to use window/Linux and stopped to support original BeOs apps because everythig was easier with Windows/Linux.
Custom hardware is good choise, there woun't be any benefits to go x86/x64
Custom hardware makes Amiga special and force people who has it to use it. (Yes I know there is linux distro for ppc)
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Custom hardware is good choise, there woun't be any benefits to go x86/x64
Custom hardware makes Amiga special and force people who has it to use it. (Yes I know there is linux distro for ppc)
I don't like to be forced. :juggler:
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BeOs didn't succeed with x86.
I dont think BeOS succeeded on PPC either. Their custom PPC HW was a fail.
Some developers said that those who has originally used BeOs started to use window/Linux and stopped to support original BeOs apps because everythig was easier with Windows/Linux.
Today everyone have Window laptops so this theory goes out of window. Instead of using Amiga they just use their XP laptop instead.
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You are force to use Amiga Os with original commodore hardware? Amiga is hobby Os and custom hardware gives more "hobby value" to it.
And now is also proved that it is possible to produce PPC hardware less than 100€.
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It would cost the combined salaries of every programmer on the project for as long as it takes to complete it, plus overhead/administrative costs...
That's the best answer so far.
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OS4 needs to remain PPC.
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No valid reason for OS4 to go to commodity hardware. The market isn't there - niche OS's are free/open source on commodity hardware, Hyperion would have no business model.
It's be just another offshoot hobby OS that could once make a meager earning on the PPC side that is now on commodity HW where there's a plethora of free OS'es for every niche market. Another OS I'd have to run an emulation layer on to run legacy software. Why should I run OS4 x86 vs. AROS, vs. UAE/Amikit/Amithlon?
There is also the fact a small team could never support the vast range of PC hardware. This is the same problem that hampers AROS. A small team cannot support every chip made for a mobo, or every gfx card released in the last 10 years. The same reason Apple locks hardware to software - no ****ty coded 3rd party drivers on core HW. Same reason MS doesn't do drivers themselves and why they have WHQL.
I'd love to run AROS, but it simply doesn't run on the hardware I own. AROS for SAM 440 is absolutely unfunctional. That being said, I don't expect a hobby OS to support my dual 590 GTX's. Either would OS4.
Now OS4 for PPC Mac, that's something I could go to bat for.
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How much would it cost to port AmigaOS to x64?
For $639 Million US Dollars I will install WinUAE + AmigaOS on your x64 machine.
Because I am such a nice guy I will let you keep the other million for yourself. :crazy:
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OS4 needs to remain PPC.
Why? Afraid it might make it into a C?USA system?
You can be one weird dude.
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So, since I'm hoping beyond hope to win the 640 Million Mega Million Jackpot tonight, does anyone out there have a good idea of what it would cost to port/recode AmigaOS 4.x to run on x64 processors? I'd really love to see my beloved AmigaOS running on completely modern hardware.
On top of that how much would it take to fund a driver initiative to keep support for modern video cards, sound chipset, network chipsets, printers, scanners, etc.
Will Amiga Inc or Hyperion allow you to?
I have highlighted the most expensive part, actually there is no single edition of Windows supported everything AND it is what makes it partly so useless and bloated.
Solution? Simple, lock the hardware for x86 Amiga to just 3 specifications initially. Low/medium/high spec of CPU/MOTHERBOARD CHIPSET/GPU/SPU/NETWORK/IO Controller.
eg i7+most powerful GPU+most popular 7.1 digital audio, gigabit ethernet, best motherboard.
This will result in a very tightly coded responsive OS. Job done. You could do it via an Amithlon type HAL that natively runs OS4.2 PPC code via emulation coded for 602/603 CPU
So there you have it
1 lock the spec to 3 machines (about 15 drivers required)
2 write a PPC emulator to run OS4 initially
3 give free upgrade to x86 native version later
4 get blitz basic 3D, chrome/opera/firefox, VLC and open office ported to it Asap
Simple :)
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Will Amiga Inc or Hyperion allow you to?
Given the fantasy of having won the $640 Million Megaball Lottery, if you can't buy Hyperion and/or Amiga,Inc. something weird is going on? That should solve any legal issues for the port.
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It obviously costs too much of Hyperion's time, as there is yet to be any signs of it. I think AROS serves that field already, lets leave the others to their own cuppa tea shall we? I have no desire to see it, because I can see this happening with OS4:
- OS4 offers very little over OS X, Windows, Linux or any other alternative OS for the average computer user, plus the fact it is a paid for OS, means it will flop in the market, as it is over-saturated.
- Then, the lack of money means the developers will be unable to pay themselves, causing massive delays in hardware support, ported applications and such.
- This will doom its chances of being among the norm. In other words, it benefits nobody in the long term
I think that custom hardware is part of the appeal, personally, to most users of the OS. I think its best chance is for it to be solicited to a game system manufacturer such as MS, Nintendo, etc. and having them use it as a base for a computer/game system/media system hybrid
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So, since I'm hoping beyond hope to win the 640 Million Mega Million Jackpot tonight, does anyone out there have a good idea of what it would cost to port/recode AmigaOS 4.x to run on x64 processors? I'd really love to see my beloved AmigaOS running on completely modern hardware.
On top of that how much would it take to fund a driver initiative to keep support for modern video cards, sound chipset, network chipsets, printers, scanners, etc.
Ok Trolls, I know the first answer you'll give is more than it's worth and the second is why would I want it without the custom chips it's not a real Amiga. So why not skip it and dream a long with me. I have millions to spend and just for fun, why not dream a long with me to be able to see AmigaOS running on almost any modern box out there with custom UAE support for running old applications.
That would be...a dream!
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8FtmeUMNJ4w/TzhWx6_mkSI/AAAAAAAADHk/jKCubeB4eaM/s640/titanic-cats.jpg)
Ignoring the Titanic part.....we seriously wouldn't want it all to go down now would we? :D
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I think that custom hardware is part of the appeal, personally, to most users of the OS. I think its best chance is for it to be solicited to a game system manufacturer such as MS, Nintendo, etc. and having them use it as a base for a computer/game system/media system hybrid
Interesting point....I've thought about that before too. You wonder if new Amiga hardware should be part of some sort of hybrid or god forbid, even a new console....
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AmigaOS on a gaming console would do nothing for anyone, tbh - and the thought of it ever happening is even more foreign than the concept of winning the lottery as per the OP's post.
Sorry - MS, Sony, or Nintendo aren't chomping at the bit to get their hands on a niche OS that only old guys and turbonerds care about anymore, lol.
I love the Amiga, but I'm not delusional that I think it's even a blip on the radar to modern computer users.
There's a difference between optimism and enthusiasm, which is a sort of a "what if? that would be neat!" concept, and actual real world realism that something if ultimately practical.
I use the comparison of Amiga emulators on mobile devices. Neat for 5 minutes, then the practicality of it kicks in and it is realized that practicality wins out. I'm all for doing things just to see if they can be done, but in the end most things are just novelties, IMHO.
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So there you have it
1 lock the spec to 3 machines (about 15 drivers required)
2 write a PPC emulator to run OS4 initially
3 give free upgrade to x86 native version later
4 get blitz basic 3D, chrome/opera/firefox, VLC and open office ported to it Asap
Simple :)
I like the strategy, a stepping stone approach. I'm amazed at the number of people who have zero interest in AmigaOS running on anything other than expensive or low end PPC hardware or AROS, which is nice but is what based on 3.1. I guess to each their own I use all of the "modern" OSs on a fairly regular basis, one by force only. I like some things about them but would still be interested in running AmigaOS on x86 instead.
Personally, I'd like to see how it could evolve if it had a small market or some backer with deep pockets that just wanted to fund something fun.
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If one could get the playstation 4 proposed motherboards for one owns use. It supposed to be amd cpu and south islands gpu with ppc cpu. you could have ppc for current os and x64 for future os at a low price. But I doubt sony would let it have any abilty to run their code ps4 games.
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I haven't heard anything about the PS4 including a PPC chip, and given that there's explicitly no backwards compatibility, there's no reason for it to include one.
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read it here-http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2012/04/the-x86-playstation-4-signals-a-sea-change-in-the-console-industry.ars
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- OS4 offers very little over OS X, Windows, Linux or any other alternative OS for the average computer user, plus the fact it is a paid for OS, means it will flop in the market, as it is over-saturated.
I for one use those OSs regularly and would love to have OS4 native on hardware that I could readily buy. Even if it's limited to specific models or video cards, sound cards, etc. I certainly would expect the market to be big but it depends on what the developers could do with it and setting it up as a platform to run classic Amiga applications.
- Then, the lack of money means the developers will be unable to pay themselves, causing massive delays in hardware support, ported applications and such.
- This will doom its chances of being among the norm. In other words, it benefits nobody in the long term
I would think that someone with $400 million after taxes might just be able to fund development for quite some time without expecting a profit from it other than just enjoying the product. Might be silly to some but I've seen wealth wasted on things that I would consider far more frivolous
I think that custom hardware is part of the appeal, personally, to most users of the OS. I think its best chance is for it to be solicited to a game system manufacturer such as MS, Nintendo, etc. and having them use it as a base for a computer/game system/media system hybrid
I hear that a lot. I do understand the mindset as the custom chips were what made the Amiga so advanced for the time. Certainly a classic Amiga will always be that combination of custom hardware and unique low overhead operating system. However, in this day and age, exactly what custom hardware would make a computer that unique with the amount of raw processor power that is available in CPU and GPU today. What remains for me of Amiga other than UAE and my A1200HD for my classic fix, today is the operating system, which still remains unique in its overhead and design. I know that modern OS's have advanced in other ways, memory protection, etc. However, I find it interesting that we have two main branches of OS to choose from Unix->Linux/BSD or VMS->NT.
I guess I'm alone, at least in those who still frequent amiga.org and are primarily into Amiga as it remains towards the end on ppc. That isn't meant as criticism but I just guess I'd love to run AmigaOS native on readily available hardware or even a subset of it.
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I haven't heard anything about the PS4 including a PPC chip, and given that there's explicitly no backwards compatibility, there's no reason for it to include one.
I recently read an article that said it was going to be an all AMD kit. Though any info at this point is not much more than rumor.
dreamcast270mhz, et. All,
Most people don't need anything more than a computer that can run a web browser. Then next largest computer user group needs a web browser, office software, and streaming ability. Those two groups should cover 85-90% of computer users.
Any major OS can do this, making basically all the same. So why use anything other than Windows. Apple's marketing can't be so good that it garners 15% of the market just on that. Linux isn't for those kind of people. Unless you want to include Android. Then we should include BSD as Mac OS is certified as a BSD.
Yeah, Amiga OS need some work. Lots of it just to get to that very basic user level. I just don't see it as filling that market. I see it as an some what specialty OS existing somewhere between Mac OS and Linux. Well, it should.
As to the desire for custom chips, we have them already. It that emergence of them on other platforms that helped kill the Amiga marketshare. Sound cards, Graphic Cards, various I/O bus cards. They have just been badly utilized on other platforms for well over a decade. We are just seeing now in the last few years GUIs using the graphics card. Which for the longest time was regulated to games or video decoding. An Amiga OS should, as it always has, utilized these kind of system resources at the system level and not as an addon for specialty uses.
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Isn't that what Amithlon was? Maybe a better question is how much to get those legal problems solved.
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there are combinations of Aros and Linux in development. So most hardware will be supported in a couple of months.
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BeOs didn't succeed with x86. Some developers said that those who has originally used BeOs started to use window/Linux and stopped to support original BeOs apps because everythig was easier with Windows/Linux.
Linux easier? I'm not a developer but as a user Linux was stinking pile of dog **** next to BeOS. Log onto any major distro forum and watch the same questions pop up from users year after year after year.
One of my regrets in computing is that the open source movement chose to support Linux. The only thing it has going for it is the 20 mb kernel. The GUI is rubbish, as is its reliance on the CLI.
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Linux isn't for those kind of people.
My mom uses the Ubuntu distro, and quite happily so.
Yeah, Amiga OS need some work.
AmigaOS needs to be replaced by something new that's much better (yep, easy to say).
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OS4 needs to remain PPC.
+1
:lol:
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Isn't that what Amithlon was? Maybe a better question is how much to get those legal problems solved.
Years too late would be my guess People - by which I mean the developer(s) - will have moved on. Then you'd still be faced with the fact that the OS is way out of date.
Just one of those things that wasn't to be.
For me, the insistence that I be forced to buy expensive hardware I didn't think was any good was what alienated me from the Amiga scene. Now, I couldn't care less as I certainly wouldn't go back and while I'd still take a look out of curiosity and nostalgia, that's not a good enough reason to spend lots of valuable money on a toy.
I do find arguments about Hyperion's "business model" rather hilarious though since I very much doubt that proceeds from AmigaOS4 total sales would have covered one year's salary for one full-time programmer - or even half that.
Not that it really matters any more.
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OS4 needs to remain PPC.
Exactly!
OS4 was not ever intended to go head to head with Windows. This is why Apple will never go x86 because once a system can run Windows or SomethingElse, people will ALWAYS run Windows!
Where's that link...ah, yes, here it is:
http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/emulators/hyperionblast.html
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thanks for the link. I read something similar from the Friedens.
My short comment: BeOS (and OS/2) did not fail because of the hardware but because of not enough software. And that would not have been different under another hardware (f.e. PPC).
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For me, the Amiga is a classic and all attempts at using anything on a PC or modern hardware take away from the joy and excitement of the real thing.
UAE can run the real thing at blazing speeds, but for me its not even fun on a PC.
Making a 25 year old A2000 do modern things is so much fun, I can't stop trying new things with it.
I have dreamt of creating a new motherboard that can host all the original chips and new cases that look alike to help keep the classics alive as their supplies dwindle.
So for me, buy up all the licensing rights, bring it back to the original Jay Miner vision.
Produce updates to the original OS for Classics.
I often thought how I could use an A2000 forever, because that is truly what I would want. And I was thinking if you had to money, startup the accelerator development again, but finish what many started, an Accelerator with modern memory, audio, video, 3d, SATA, etc all on one accelerator board.
That way I can keep my A2000 classic, but run any screen mode and have all the faculties of a modern PC whilst keeping my roots in the classic Amiga ever present.
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@ OlafS3
IMHO, BeOS failed mostly because its mother company decided to try their luck by changing their core business to "Chase some IT-Bubble Dragon" at the time, resulting that its business burst with the bubble, and the OS went down with it. A case of corporate mismanagement IMHO. Sad, though...
(At least I have an official T-shirt and a portable CD-case/bag with BeOS logo as a souvenir to remember it by! :))
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Better than nothing :-)
I bought my first PC (8 MB!) with OS/2 and saw it failing not because of the product (it was better than Windows at the time) but because of no software.
But again every OS (whatever hardware it uses) competes with all other platforms for users and developers. And avoiding to use the same hardware does not change this.
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Most people don't need anything more than a computer that can run a web browser. Then next largest computer user group needs a web browser, office software, and streaming ability. Those two groups should cover 85-90% of computer users.
Any major OS can do this, making basically all the same.
Exactly!! That's why were not necessarily tied to..
So why use anything other than Windows..
..er.. what?
Why? Because a very smart person once said:
Any major OS can do this
:-)
Also, you can run Office Software in a browser nowadays..
I'm not saying that I expect an Amiga OS of any kind to take over the world, but I can very possibly see a world with much less Windows. Already seeing that with phones and tablets accounting for more and more percentage of the browsers in the web logs..
Combine that with embedded internet (in TVs and DVD's/Blu Rays, etc) and internet enabled Consoles possibly gaining traction.....
I'm not saying it's going to happen, but...
desiv
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Operating system success has nothing to do with most of the things people talk about. It has everything to do with marketing.
The GUI is rubbish, as is its reliance on the CLI.
Which GUI are you talking about?
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Operating system success has nothing to do with most of the things people talk about. It has everything to do with marketing.
...and the science of marketing isn't about what most people thinks it is (advertisements etc), but identifying a need on a market and provide a way to satisfy that need with the right combination of Products, Price, Place and Promotion! If your product doesn't satisfy a true need, it's redundant, and it won't matter how much you advertize... ;)
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...and the science of marketing isn't about what most people thinks it is (advertisements etc), but identifying a need on a market and provide a way to satisfy that need with the right combination of Products, Price, Place and Promotion! If your product doesn't satisfy a true need, it's redundant, and it won't matter how much you advertize... ;)
If the need isn't there, you can create it. Happens for luxury goods all the time.
And if you can control the market, marketing doesn't stay important of course.
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Which GUI are you talking about?
The clusterfu¢k one where no matter what desktop environment you select, every application uses one of half a dozen UI toolkits that all operate in subtly different, mutually-incompatible ways, and each application introduces its own inconsistencies on top of that, and eventually you snap and shoot up a Post Office?
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If the need isn't there, you can create it.
No you can never create a need, but you can educate people about needs they thought they never had! ;)
Happens for luxury goods all the time.
Most of us have many needs that makes us want various more or less "luxury" (unnecessary for our survival) goods, they are what has been driving the western economy the last 100 years...
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The clusterfu¢k one where no matter what desktop environment you select, every application uses one of half a dozen UI toolkits that all operate in subtly different, mutually-incompatible ways, and each application introduces its own inconsistencies on top of that, and eventually you snap and shoot up a Post Office?
So you've used OpenSuSE... :banana:
desiv :razz:
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every application uses one of half a dozen UI toolkits that all operate in subtly different, mutually-incompatible ways, and each application introduces its own inconsistencies on top of that
amigaos.txt
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No you can never create a need, but you can educate people about needs they thought they never had! ;)
Same thing effectively. I guess if you want to do some sort of pedantic "well, people didn't know they needed ipads before it was invented" then sure.
Most of us have many needs that makes us want various more or less "luxury" (unnecessary for our survival) goods, they are what has been driving the western economy the last 100 years...
Yup. An economic system based on perpetually increasing consumption.
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So, since I'm hoping beyond hope to win the 640 Million Mega Million Jackpot tonight, does anyone out there have a good idea of what it would cost to port/recode AmigaOS 4.x to run on x64 processors? I'd really love to see my beloved AmigaOS running on completely modern hardware.
On top of that how much would it take to fund a driver initiative to keep support for modern video cards, sound chipset, network chipsets, printers, scanners, etc.
Ok Trolls, I know the first answer you'll give is more than it's worth and the second is why would I want it without the custom chips it's not a real Amiga. So why not skip it and dream a long with me. I have millions to spend and just for fun, why not dream a long with me to be able to see AmigaOS running on almost any modern box out there with custom UAE support for running old applications.
Last I heard, Rogue wanted 2 fatty cows, 2 quarts of pork, fried rice and 10 cases of Kools......
[edit] - If you *DO* actually win, promise me you'll buy Piru an AX1000 (or whatever they're called). I think he'll start porting MorphOS, just to spite us. ;)
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The clusterfu¢k one where no matter what desktop environment you select, every application uses one of half a dozen UI toolkits that all operate in subtly different, mutually-incompatible ways, and each application introduces its own inconsistencies on top of that, and eventually you snap and shoot up a Post Office?
lol, It's gotten a lot better in recent years at least. Seems to be a lot more of a Gnome issue than KDE though, at least lately.
With KDE4 at least, apps behave remarkably consistently. GTK integration can be hit and miss, but it's hit a lot more than miss lately.
I guess it sort of comes down to "you can have these options or you can have us pick one for you" though.
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Well, if you only use KDE applications, maybe, but good luck with that...
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Well, if you only use KDE applications, maybe, but good luck with that...
Well, now that you mention it, almost all of the app's I use are KDE specific stuff. I mostly liked the default stuff that comes in Kubuntu (just installed Yuk and VLC) so I guess I never noticed a ton.
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No valid reason for OS4 to go to commodity hardware. The market isn't there - niche OS's are free/open source on commodity hardware, Hyperion would have no business model.
It's be just another offshoot hobby OS that could once make a meager earning on the PPC side that is now on commodity HW where there's a plethora of free OS'es for every niche market. Another OS I'd have to run an emulation layer on to run legacy software. Why should I run OS4 x86 vs. AROS, vs. UAE/Amikit/Amithlon?
There is also the fact a small team could never support the vast range of PC hardware. This is the same problem that hampers AROS. A small team cannot support every chip made for a mobo, or every gfx card released in the last 10 years. The same reason Apple locks hardware to software - no ****ty coded 3rd party drivers on core HW. Same reason MS doesn't do drivers themselves and why they have WHQL.
I'd love to run AROS, but it simply doesn't run on the hardware I own. AROS for SAM 440 is absolutely unfunctional. That being said, I don't expect a hobby OS to support my dual 590 GTX's. Either would OS4.
Now OS4 for PPC Mac, that's something I could go to bat for.
Beh. Wrong. The market isn't there to sell 10 copies of an OS to the 10 people willing to pay $1000 for a motherboard built around 10 year old tech that represents bleeding edge in the Amiga world.
I would pay $100 usd for AmigaOS to use on PC hardware, and I am sure I am not alone.
I think it would be safe to say the number of people who would pay for AmigaOS that they could install on PC hardware is so much greater than the number willing to pay for underpowered and overpriced PPC hardware as to make a comparison laughable. The number of copies sold to PC hardware owners would surely number in the thousands or tens of thousands from day one...and custom built to spec machines bearing the logo and OS discounted for OEM bundling would only increase that number.
I went the overpriced PPC hardware route years ago with my A3000 68060 & A4000 + 0600/PPC+CVPPC loaded to the gills. Many Amiga users never went as far as I did. I left in 2001. For general computing it is no longer viable, but I still love the OS and would gladly purchase it for installation on commodity hardware.
Support one family of motherboards and one family of graphics cards. For printing, maybe CUPS could be ported? I am not a programmer, but I know that Mac uses CUPS.
If AmigaOS was on PC hardware, the potential for platform growth would exist. On PPC hardware that is 10 years behind the current x68 in terms of performance, and twice the price, there is no market outside of a handful of fanatics. The PA6T-1682M CPU cranks out what??? 3,000 MIPS give or take? That is slower than my Athlon 64 from 2004. I know there are other variables to consider...but that is 1/3rd the MIPS rating of my Athlon 64 from 2004. ONE THIRD! This doesn't even address availability of the processor, as Apple owns PA Semi and keeps them alive because the US Government uses them in embedded applications...and that is the current HIGH END custom Amiga CPU, and other than memory speed it is slower than 8 year old x64 hardware. The I5/I7 is so much faster still...
I am writing this post from a dual-boot Windows/Mint laptop with a 2.53 Ghz core2duo cpu (30,000 MIPS), 6 gigs of ram, 500gig HD, and Nvidia GT260M with 1 Gig dedicated video memory and a 17.3" screen. I bought it 2 years ago and paid $800 for it - $300 less than I paid for my CVPPC/CSPPC in 1999 - and I got a "good deal" on the miggy upgrades. I rarely use Windows, and I would love to ditch Mint and use AmigaOS - or install a drive in my second bay as a dedicated AmigaOS drive.
Of course, AmigaOS on x64 will never happen. The priests make sure of that...
Eddie Izzard could do a good bit on this scenario. Oh look, a shotgun...BLAM! oh I just shot myself in the face! Well of course I did. I wanted to shoot myself in the face. Shooting myself in the face is so much better than not shooting myself in the face... Amiga logic. Its no wonder it is dead with so many adherents who believe that face shooting is the way to go.
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The question noone seems to have answers to is..
okay. Now you got amiga OS on an I7.
What difference does it make when Quake 3 is the most you can put it through?
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The question noone seems to have answers to is..
okay. Now you got amiga OS on an I7.
What difference does it make when Quake 3 is the most you can put it through?
At least it wouldnt need to be recapped and the battery damage repaired.
But the comment about paying $100 for OS4 that runs on modern Intel hardware hits it on the head- after shipping it costs about $80 for Amiga Forever(deluxe with the DVDs and C64)... Which has sold more copies?
I'm no engineer, but hardware abstraction is a facet of all modern operating systems- the MOS fab is no longer at the Amiga's disposal. Most of us will never see OS4 if it does not evolve to support hardware that makes sense. It really is that simple.
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The question noone seems to have answers to is..
okay. Now you got amiga OS on an I7.
What difference does it make when Quake 3 is the most you can put it through?
Web content, video and audio encoding and converting, digital photo editing... lots of stuff that having more CPU power would be beneficial for.
With a teensy user base that isn't going to grow with overpriced PPC hardware sales, Quake 3 is about the greatest thing you can hope to put through it.
(edit) Not only is the user base not going to grow, it is going to continue to shrink. PPC - the current model - is nothing more than slow suicide.
With access to AMD or Intel CPU power for pennies on the dollar v/s PPC, and the possibility of purchasing a new OS to run on your machine, there would be new users. Thousands on the conservative side. Tens of thousands in all likelihood. From there you have a seedbed for forward momentum. Embedded CPU's in limited quantity is not a viable upgrade path, no matter what the zealots say.
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With access to AMD or Intel CPU power for pennies on the dollar v/s PPC, and the possibility of purchasing a new OS to run on your machine, there would be new users. Thousands on the conservative side. Tens of thousands in all likelihood. From there you have a seedbed for forward momentum. Embedded CPU's in limited quantity is not a viable upgrade path, no matter what the zealots say.
Why didn't AROS make this happen already then?
It's tough enough to get developers to support apple, harder still to get them to support linux, and we're banking on a sudden renaisance for an OS most people today haven't heard about, which would have 20 years of catching up to do, and which would start with zero software support ?
People love to moan about PPC but it's not a difference of "path forward" versus "dead end". THey're all dead ends here.
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The reality is to sell 100,000 units on x86 even OS4 (or even a successor) would need someone with the brand appeal to the general public. This can realistically only be Google or IBM (NOT Lenovo).
Also without some bespoke elegant cases and unique design keyboard and mouse as an exclusive package would it even sell then? Has anyone done it without an identifiable unique brand/style of physical items? (case, keyboard or mouse?)
Apple - they refuse to sell just OS X for general use. Possibly because the OS alone is not enough. Apple are the smartest at marketing.
Microsoft - Mostly 'free' copies of Windows on every new PC/Laptop sold. And most people who upgrade (well downgrade since XP IMO) are conned into thinking their copy of XP is the problem and "need" Win7 when the reality is they just need a clean install of ANY version of Windows every 36 months or less. All it was is Virus/Trojan/Registry bloat or bloated apps NOT XP. Microsoft dominate by default due to attained market share in the 90s via dirty/illegal tactics. They have critical mass, nobody will replace them until silicon computing is obsolete.
Google - Chrome OS vs M$ is going as well as Google+ vs Facebook (dead duck). Partly because the whole internet browser as an OS GUI is a totally retarded fukup but some of it is because Joe public buy machines (with Windows installed and they don't care enough to uninstall it) or a design philosophy (exclusive design shiny white curvy computer with odd keyboard and mouse not just NOT Windows as host OS) and not just an OS.
I guess this is what MOS/Hyperion know and explains lack of x86 projects. Even the A1 X1000 doesn't have a unique keyboard and mouse and looks exactly like a £400 i7 PC housed in a CoolerMaster Silencio 550 case.
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I recently read an article that said it was going to be an all AMD kit. Though any info at this point is not much more than rumor.
dreamcast270mhz, et. All,
Most people don't need anything more than a computer that can run a web browser. Then next largest computer user group needs a web browser, office software, and streaming ability. Those two groups should cover 85-90% of computer users.
Any major OS can do this, making basically all the same. So why use anything other than Windows. Apple's marketing can't be so good that it garners 15% of the market just on that. Linux isn't for those kind of people. Unless you want to include Android. Then we should include BSD as Mac OS is certified as a BSD.
Yeah, Amiga OS need some work. Lots of it just to get to that very basic user level. I just don't see it as filling that market. I see it as an some what specialty OS existing somewhere between Mac OS and Linux. Well, it should.
As to the desire for custom chips, we have them already. It that emergence of them on other platforms that helped kill the Amiga marketshare. Sound cards, Graphic Cards, various I/O bus cards. They have just been badly utilized on other platforms for well over a decade. We are just seeing now in the last few years GUIs using the graphics card. Which for the longest time was regulated to games or video decoding. An Amiga OS should, as it always has, utilized these kind of system resources at the system level and not as an addon for specialty uses.
1. Every new user, even spotty little teens, "need" 1080p streaming flash video via Youtube. And given most PCs are sold with 19" monitors 1080p off-line video (AVI, MKV etc) playback also required. Even X1000 class CPU will struggle at decoding 720p and decoding to 1080p desktop rez in VLC. Forget 720p flash video even on x1000 CPU. Therefore PPC is dead without MOS/OS4 port to 3.2ghz IBM Xenon CPU (as sold to M$ for Xbox 360) OR custom HD video playback hardware.
2. Custom chips of note are all on the graphics cards today, but Windows designs and generalizations of DirectX duct tape solution since the days of VoodoFX vs Open GL vs PCVR 3D card drivers hides this. Even AMD's Zacate E-450 CPU is custom hardware (2 Athlon 64 cores and ATI 6300 GPU combined on ONE chip).
3. Not essential to go all Apple and use standard PC motherboard design. Xbox 360 and PS3 use PC GPU + RAM + I/O chipset BUT achieve a 100% performance increase due to better (for the purpose) OS and a non PC superior motherboard compared to 2006 top end Wintel PC for 60fps 1080p gaming using a Nvidia 6800GT based GPU.
Just porting OS4 to a general PC market will mean it is slower than potential speed on a handful of locked down spec of machines IMO and why OS alone = small potatoes IMO.
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Well, if you only use KDE applications, maybe, but good luck with that...
I'd say it's still bigger group than all (system friendly) Amiga applications (all GUI toolkits combined)
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Maybe the actual "amount" might not be better, but the "coverage of basic needs" (office software, proper text editor, media player etc.) is.
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I'd say it's still bigger group than all (system friendly) Amiga applications (all GUI toolkits combined)
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Maybe the actual "amount" might not be better, but the "coverage of basic needs" (office software, proper text editor, media player etc.) is.
...and that leads to which conclusion? Say what you mean! ;)
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I'd say it's still bigger group than all (system friendly) Amiga applications (all GUI toolkits combined)
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Maybe the actual "amount" might not be better, but the "coverage of basic needs" (office software, proper text editor, media player etc.) is.
That may be, but I wasn't intending to say that AmigaOS beats out Linux - just that Linux UI is an unholy mess of warring standards applied with wild inconsistency to the extent that my two-week attempt to switch over last November left me wanting to kill people.
Back on topic, I simply don't buy that many more people would use an Amiga-derived operating system if it were on x86. Hardware cost is prohibitive for OS4, but you can get a decent MorphOS machine for $10 from your local school's storage closet, and it's hardly taken over the world. Nor has AROS exactly shown up on the mainstream radar...
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...Even X1000 class CPU will struggle at decoding 720p...
Not true. I've decoded 720p on a G4 Powermac under MorphOS and as Fab has stated a G5 could decode 1080p just fine.
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I just roll with Ubuntu or Debian when I have installed linux, but I have to say DragonFly BSD is looking up from here, it has some Amiga inspiration apparently.
And Digiman, don't mindlessly attack the PPC standard with fallacies. It has its flaws, yes, but RISC processors at the same speed as an X86 are far better, especially if you consider the contemporary NetBurst architecture, it runs circles around it. My G4, runs circles around my friend's P4HT at 3 Ghz. The NetBurst is dated, yes but tis a proof that x86 isn't always foolproof. OTOH, my mini C2D does decode my BluRay rips better, but granted that it has faster versions of the decoding software I use to decode the matroshka files
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Why didn't AROS make this happen already then?
It's tough enough to get developers to support apple, harder still to get them to support linux, and we're banking on a sudden renaisance for an OS most people today haven't heard about, which would have 20 years of catching up to do, and which would start with zero software support ?
People love to moan about PPC but it's not a difference of "path forward" versus "dead end". THey're all dead ends here.
AROS is a good idea, but the last time I tried to use it, it had zero usability. I couldn't get it installed on one machine, and the other wasn't supported. Had there been an Amiga machine with a reasonably competitive price to performance ratio, many people would have gotten on-board ages ago. Unfortunately, all that materialized were bug ridden machines that once the bugs were removed, were so far out of date as to be ridiculously overpriced v/s new tech.
Your arguments are not really valid. It still boils down to - OS4.x on hardware that people can actually buy and use for minimal cost (or they may already have), verses OS4.x on custom hardware that costs 10x the price of more powerful commodity hardware. Either way you go, you are still facing the same issues on the software side. At least with PC hardware there is a potential market in the thousands. With custom hardware, it is a handful of fanatics - not a viable user base.
Hyperion stated when they started the update of AmigaOS that one of the results would be improved portability - the potential for porting the OS to other platforms with much less work needed. Given the market choices there is really no argument for supporting PPC over x64. The only argument is whether to continue AmigaOS on x64 or not at all.
If Hyperion or whoever owns AmigaOS has any intention of a future for AmigaOS, x64 is the only choice. If they continue the PPC route, the platform is no longer in limbo - it is officially dead. I hate it, but it is the truth.
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I don't think OS4 has any viability on most X64 hardware, but I do think if we put it on something like Genesi's ARM boards, then it would be very viable as it would then be on low cost hardware which is powerful enough for most work.
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If Hyperion or whoever owns AmigaOS has any intention of a future for AmigaOS, x64 is the only choice. If they continue the PPC route, the platform is no longer in limbo - it is officially dead. I hate it, but it is the truth.
"Officially dead?" Is there some kind of certifying authority for OS livelihood? Does "official" death happen when there are zero users left? Or is it when the OS is no longer under development? Or when all disks containing the OS are wiped out? Because, uh, none of those things are at all true for either PPC Amiga-NG OS. Even for 68k Amigas only one of those is true, and the fact that that remains the case twenty years after the death of Commodore suggests that it's not likely to change in the immediate future.
Or is this some new definition of "officially" that means "not actually official at all," like how people use "literally" to mean "figuratively" these days?
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I don't think OS4 has any viability on most X64 hardware, but I do think if we put it on something like Genesi's ARM boards, then it would be very viable as it would then be on low cost hardware which is powerful enough for most work.
Agreed, for an OS that doesn't support true SMP OS4 on an X86/X64 platform would be a waste.
ARM is low cost and a viable alternative.
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I just roll with Ubuntu or Debian when I have installed linux, but I have to say DragonFly BSD is looking up from here, it has some Amiga inspiration apparently.
And Digiman, don't mindlessly attack the PPC standard with fallacies. It has its flaws, yes, but RISC processors at the same speed as an X86 are far better, especially if you consider the contemporary NetBurst architecture, it runs circles around it. My G4, runs circles around my friend's P4HT at 3 Ghz. The NetBurst is dated, yes but tis a proof that x86 isn't always foolproof. OTOH, my mini C2D does decode my BluRay rips better, but granted that it has faster versions of the decoding software I use to decode the matroshka files
...you know, in most applications, the 1.6Ghz D510 trounces a 3Ghz P4HT?
An Intel Atom CPU that is considered a squirrel running around in a cage by comparison to other modern CPU's outperforms a P4 @ twice the clock speed.
Seriously.
That is 10 year old Tech.
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... but I have to say DragonFly BSD is looking up from here, it has some Amiga inspiration apparently.
Oh yeah!!
Matt Dillon ROCKS!!!
desiv
(OK, I never really got "INTO" BSD, but I have nothing against it, and Matt is awesome.. I was a PAID user of DICE (Dillon's Integrated C Environment) for the Amiga..)
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Hmm? I got my prescott core P4 Dell in '04, so thats eight years. And thats pretty sweet there, but since Netburst wasnt too efficient with its pipelines it doesnt surprise me.
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I know someone whose a dev for DFBSD, and he entertained some q's for me about the OS in late '08. Can't remember his name for the life of me, but he lives in C'ville VA
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Hmm? I got my prescott core P4 Dell in '04, so thats eight years. And thats pretty sweet there, but since Netburst wasnt too efficient with its pipelines it doesnt surprise me.
Nope, Intel kinda blew it there.
Has to be the only time AMD actually slipped ahead of them (that ain't happening again).
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AMD is a pretty good company however, and I like their stuff over much of the stuff Intel is pumping out
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AMD is a pretty good company however, and I like their stuff over much of the stuff Intel is pumping out
Yeah, well you can see where my sympathies are.
Take a look at what's in my x86 box (and for that matter my AROS box uses a 2,7GHz single core A64).
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If you set a reference hardware platform specification, it shouldn't cost more than a few million.
That's right, if they choose a reference hardware platform it would make it less expensive for sure.
The problem of course, is that reference platforms get out of date pretty quickly so it would take more cash to keep getting it ported to new reference platforms. And if the port to a reference platform that was up-to-date when the work started but then took a couple of years to get out of BETA it would also be a bit silly.
There's also the question of what is considered a successful port, just the OS with no app support, the OS + PPC support, WARP support, Open GL support, x68k support etc etc.
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That may be, but I wasn't intending to say that AmigaOS beats out Linux - just that Linux UI is an unholy mess of warring standards applied with wild inconsistency to the extent that my two-week attempt to switch over last November left me wanting to kill people.
Yes, that might be even worse on linux (or unix-like systems, in general) than it's on Amiga.
And worse still, it's not only about different toolkits either, f.ex. Qt is now split to "classic" widgets and QML.
But in any case, sometimes it's really bad on Amiga too. f.ex. ReAction had some totally non-standard behavior for shift + cursor combinations, at least in text editor (select text instead of moving to the end)
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I don't think OS4 has any viability on most X64 hardware, but I do think if we put it on something like Genesi's ARM boards, then it would be very viable as it would then be on low cost hardware which is powerful enough for most work.
By the time they port it 2.8ghz i7 CPUs+mobo will cost the same as ARM so waste of time.
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That's right, if they choose a reference hardware platform it would make it less expensive for sure.
The problem of course, is that reference platforms get out of date pretty quickly so it would take more cash to keep getting it ported to new reference platforms. And if the port to a reference platform that was up-to-date when the work started but then took a couple of years to get out of BETA it would also be a bit silly.
There's also the question of what is considered a successful port, just the OS with no app support, the OS + PPC support, WARP support, Open GL support, x68k support etc etc.
Would need to be as complete a conversion as Apple's PPC-->x86 product if they want €100 for it ideally.
Supporting an i7 and a future i7 is no problem, forget bus/RAM speed or north/south bridge uniqueness. PCI-E is here to stay, as is basic i7 architecture. GPU is only possible exception.
The issue is (total potential sales x RRP)/cost of development up front.
If 10,000 copies sold at €100 that's €1,000,000. If they even sold 10000.
The real issue is nobody would invest in that business. If IBM bought it to turn it into a true virus resistant OS after massive improvements that is the only real world mass market scenario I could see for X86 OS4 IMO.
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Theres more to porting it to x64 than ARM. Using the i7 as an example, you have several hurdles to jump:
OS4 doesnt support SMP, so only one of an i7's cores is used, limiting its usefulness.
Endianess will have to be addressed, when porting the OS you will have to rewrite any ASM code that may be present (If any)
OS4 doesnt support 64-bit, and since 64-bit instructions use twice as much RAM, it will be grossly inefficient
Locking the system to certain machines (like OS X is) will increase compatibility but cripple market penetration, as we are in a recession and people dont always have cash for yet another system, especiallly not an i7 system
Leaving it open to any x64 machines will cost much more manpower to ensure compatibility
Plus, AmigaOS4 has little to offer over current alternative OSes for x86. Comparing it to ZETA/BeOS/Haiku, for example, you will see more x86 native apps for it (since BeOS had only a short PPC run) compared to OS4, which will require its porting before any applications can be compiled/tested
And whose gonna pay for an alternative OS with inferior hardware support, that they have to relearn and with much less infrastructure than most other OSes on the market. The Amiga community? We are so divided I doubt you'd even get the number of current OS4 users, many of which will be angry that their hardware is no longer supported.
You seem like your mind is made up Digiman, but you know what they say, the empty can rattles the most, good luck professing your beliefs, but i feel they fall on deaf ears
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OS4 doesnt support SMP, so only one of an i7's cores is used, limiting its usefulness.
Endianess will have to be addressed, when porting the OS you will have to rewrite any ASM code that may be present (If any)
OS4 doesnt support 64-bit, and since 64-bit instructions use twice as much RAM, it will be grossly inefficient
Locking the system to certain machines (like OS X is) will increase compatibility but cripple market penetration, as we are in a recession and people dont always have cash for yet another system, especiallly not an i7 system
Leaving it open to any x64 machines will cost much more manpower to ensure compatibility
Plus, AmigaOS4 has little to offer over current alternative OSes for x86. Comparing it to ZETA/BeOS/Haiku, for example, you will see more x86 native apps for it (since BeOS had only a short PPC run) compared to OS4, which will require its porting before any applications can be compiled/tested
It doesn't matter, technical issues are utterly irrelevant to these people. "x64 is the Only Possible Future of Amiga!" is largely a mantra uttered with religious fervor and zero comprehension as a prayer to the Great God Intel, Dominator of the Market. If the PDP-8 made a sudden and inexplicable return and overthrow of the desktop market, they'd be suggesting OS4 get ported to that.
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The problem with Power architecture is the price of entry, why should I have to spend 1900 quid on machine that in the X86 world is out performed by a couple hundred quid machine? AmigaOS's are a hobby, as such they should fit a hobby budget. At 1900 quid you get the truly devoted, but you don't get the vast majority of people who just want to play with it. I actually don't even want another machine at this point, just make it run in a Fusion or Virtualbox instance.
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I think we should just make an ARM port to something simple like the beagleboard, because its low cost, low footprint and open source. We already have an open source Amiga OS, AROS (which I do not care for, but many others do, thats fine). The thing is that OS4 has too many challenges on x86, on ARM, is a lot less and it would be more economical for us users.
If you happen to get loaded enough to buy OS4 then you may do with it what you wish, but until then we must take what we are give or not at all.
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It doesn't matter, technical issues are utterly irrelevant to these people. "x64 is the Only Possible Future of Amiga!" is largely a mantra uttered with religious fervor and zero comprehension as a prayer to the Great God Intel, Dominator of the Market. If the PDP-8 made a sudden and inexplicable return and overthrow of the desktop market, they'd be suggesting OS4 get ported to that.
Hmm, I don't think it's so much that people are in love with Intel as it is that products which just happen to use Intel are readily available and generally inexpensive. So yes, you're right, if there was another commodity leader then people would want to target that instead. I don't see anything wrong with that. I do see something wrong in leveraging the wallets of a few pensioners "just because".