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Author Topic: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?  (Read 19717 times)

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Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #149 from previous page: May 02, 2008, 03:19:25 PM »
@bloodline

[/quote]No Amiga graphics cards are built using the same chips as PC graphics cards.[/quote]

None ?  And were they significantly less powerful than the PC graphic cards of the same technological generation ? -- I don't mean the same "era" as the delay between PC and Amiga hardware, at the time of the Amiga graphic cards, may be attributed to other factors than power difference between the two standards.

Quote
The Amiga was a little bit cheaper than the PC at the high end of the Market. But for the little more that you paid with the PC you got better Graphics. With the Amiga you had to pay the price of the Base machine and the graphics card, this pushed costs to far more than the PC.

At the top end of the market the Amiga was considerably more expensive to achieve the same results.


I agree, but the price factor depends on success, and success is not only the consequence of price, but reputation, and the reputation was mainly made by journalists, the majority of which never considered the desktop Amiga models, making price increase and condemning the Amiga to death (as if it was a game console).  Since graphic cards were (almost) only designed for desktop models, it may be enough to explain their rarity and the technological delay.

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Plus the Amiga Operating system offered little support (ie none) for these graphics cards. This support had to be added by third party and were often buggy and incompatible.


I hadn't thought about that.  Yet again I can't remember any journalist complaining about this problem, while even any video game journalist would any time criticize MS-Dos and Windows, hence encouraging progress.

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But in the time frame we are looking at, neither the A500 or the "portable PC" would have been used for serious graphics work.


Then we must only compare PCs to Amiga with graphic cards.  Yet most journalists were only interested in the "portable" Amiga.  Open any game magazine of that era : all talk about the Amiga 500, and later 600, CDTV, CD32 and 1200, but most act as if they ignore the existence of the A2000, 3000 and 4000, to such an extent that they were comparing 486 or Pentium PCs to the Amiga 500 or 600 - and nobody realized it was absurd.

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AGA should have been included in a minor 1988/1989 update to the A500. It is after all little more than a new 24bit Denise chip.

Thee A2000 is just an A500 with ZorroII slots...


Yes but the AGA chipset was not upgradeable anyway, so the Zorro slots hence desktop models had to be the key of Amiga evolution, which they couldn't be because of public disinterest forced by journalism.

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The advantage was economic.


You see, power did not make everything.

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Amiga's stopped being value for money at the high end graphics market in about 1991... and the low end of the market by 1993. This was Commodore's fault. They assumed that the Amiga like the C64 would just sell, without the need to constantly innovate.


But as I say I think it was already too late in 1991, as journalism had already been sending the A2000 (and later 3000 and 4000) - hence indirectly the whole Amiga range - into oblivion for five years.  Commodore has only accelerated the demise.  A computer can't sell if nobody talks about it.

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Apple had a better marketing team, and were more prepared to take risks with innovative devices


Yes indeed, but people were not acting as if the only Apple on the market in 1992 was the '84 Mac or the Apple IIc.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #150 on: May 02, 2008, 03:22:49 PM »
Quote

arkpandora wrote:
@bloodline

No Amiga graphics cards are built using the same chips as PC graphics cards.[/quote]

None ?  And were they significantly less powerful than the PC graphic cards of the same technological generation ? -- I don't mean the same "era" as the delay between PC and Amiga hardware, at the time of the Amiga graphic cards, may be attributed to other factors than power difference between the two standards.
[/quote]

My original sentence should have read:

No. Amiga graphics cards are built using the same chips as PC graphics cards.

Stupid . button failed me.

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #151 on: May 02, 2008, 03:26:04 PM »
O-kay.  Then the journalism factor is only confirmed.
 

Offline Damion

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #152 on: May 02, 2008, 07:26:37 PM »
@Hammer

You crack me up, man :pint:

About the video processing - it's not really an area of huge interest or concern to me, all I'm pointing out is that any type of processing introduces its own elements (this is common knowledge, product literature aside), some will be more or less happy with different technologies. In regard to so-called "framerate conversion" (specifically, 50 Hz content -> 60Hz), it looks like {bleep}e to me and I'm afraid that's simply a matter of subjective taste. This also goes for an emulator output set at 50 FPS "synced" to a display refresh of 60Hz. If it looks OK to you... then rock on! :D

I may get a few videos up to try and illustrate the difference.

 

Offline persia

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #153 on: May 02, 2008, 08:08:15 PM »
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

What we\'re witnessing is the sad, lonely crowing of that last, doomed cock.
 

Offline Damion

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #154 on: May 02, 2008, 08:36:31 PM »
Quote

persia wrote:


Indeed, but I guarantee it's far more hillarious from my standpoint. :lol:

If 50Hz material looked perfect at 60Hz, there would be no need for frame rate conversion. Same with film. This is just common knowledge...

Ever played a fast 3D game without vsync? Why do you think 120Hz capable LCDs are becoming available? Synchronized display (f.e, 60 FPS @ 60Hz) is always better for smooth gaming... amiga games are no exception. Ask any 133t PC gamer which argument makes more sense. :-)

 

Offline Hammer

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #155 on: May 02, 2008, 11:57:18 PM »
Quote

-D- wrote:
@Hammer

You crack me up, man :pint:

About the video processing - it's not really an area of huge interest or concern to me, all I'm pointing out is that any type of processing introduces its own elements (this is common knowledge, product literature aside), some will be more or less happy with different technologies. In regard to so-called "framerate conversion" (specifically, 50 Hz content -> 60Hz), it looks like {bleep}e to me and

Which type of framerate conversion?

Quote

I'm afraid that's simply a matter of subjective taste. This also goes for an emulator output set at 50 FPS "synced" to a display refresh of 60Hz. If it looks OK to you... then rock on! :D

I may get a few videos up to try and illustrate the difference.

Example of judder effects refer to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lik4zcmPoY
24FPS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E8j6hvEf0E
50FPS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVZip0uYX_o
Judder issues (Motion Plus 100Hz set to low) with Transformers Movie. I’m assuming we all have this movie for common reference.

Playing Pinball-I AGA on my WinUAE setup(as posted on this topic) doesn't have these effects i.e. the scrolling is smooth.

Also, the latest NVIDIA driver 175.12 or 174.93 enables the user to create custom screen modes and refresh rates without the use of Powerstrip.

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Offline Hammer

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #156 on: May 03, 2008, 12:05:36 AM »
Quote

-D- wrote:
Quote

persia wrote:


Indeed, but I guarantee it's far more hillarious from my standpoint. :lol:

If 50Hz material looked perfect at 60Hz, there would be no need for frame rate conversion. Same with film. This is just common knowledge...

Most of my post shows FPS smoothing post-processing.

Quote

Ever played a fast 3D game without vsync?

Yes, and also for benchmarking. VSync can be locked from driver's control panel or in game settings.

Quote

 Why do you think 120Hz capable LCDs are becoming available? Synchronized display (f.e, 60 FPS @ 60Hz) is always better for smooth gaming... amiga games are no exception. Ask any 133t PC gamer which argument makes more sense. :-)

My other PC is built around Intel Core 2 Duo@3Ghz (not overclocked) and CrossFire Radeon HD 3870 setup i.e. (Radeon HD 3870 X2). Enough performance to play 2007/2008 era games (and Fold@Home) beyond PS3 or X360 (you only need one Radeon HD 38x0 or one Geforce 8800 GPU to beat these "next-gen" consoles).

I have bought Unreal Tournament 3, Crysis, Assassins Creed (XBOX 360/PS3 port), Quake 4, Doom 3, Two Worlds (XBOX 360 port), Half Life 2 EP1/EP2, Hellgate London, The Witcher and 'etc'.

Btw, ASUS G1S is a "gamer" 15.4" laptop. I could have brought MacBook Pro...
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Offline Hammer

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #157 on: May 03, 2008, 01:04:03 AM »
Quote
This also goes for an emulator output set at 50 FPS "synced" to a display refresh of 60Hz

The catch is "FullScreen + VSync" which disables "FPS Adj".
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Offline Damion

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #158 on: May 03, 2008, 01:49:52 AM »
Quote

Hammer wrote:
Quote
This also goes for an emulator output set at 50 FPS "synced" to a display refresh of 60Hz

The catch is "FullScreen + VSync" which disables "FPS Adj".


Ah, well, that's where the discrepancy was then. :-) (I'll trash the post I was going to submit basically reiterating what was already said).

BTW, the videos I was going to post:

1. SOTB III (NTSC version), @ 60 FPS/60Hz display refresh, to illustrate very nice scrolling with WinUAE

2. SOTB III (PAL version), @ 50 FPS/60Hz display refresh, to illustrate an unsynchronized emulator/display refresh

For some people, # 1 still isn't QUITE as smooth as the old hardware, my opinion is it's very close, and the differences that do exist might yet be down to some type of configuration problem. (Basically, I haven't screwed around with it enough to know for sure, looks pretty good to to me though.)
 
The only issue you might have is that some amiga stuff was coded for either PAL or NTSC timings, so running, say, a PAL demo at 60 FPS/60Hz might show some weird artifacts (though this is no different from the original hardware).

 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #159 on: May 03, 2008, 08:58:59 AM »
Quote

-D- wrote:
Quote

Hammer wrote:
Quote
This also goes for an emulator output set at 50 FPS "synced" to a display refresh of 60Hz

The catch is "FullScreen + VSync" which disables "FPS Adj".


Ah, well, that's where the discrepancy was then. :-) (I'll trash the post I was going to submit basically reiterating what was already said).

BTW, the videos I was going to post:

1. SOTB III (NTSC version), @ 60 FPS/60Hz display refresh, to illustrate very nice scrolling with WinUAE

2. SOTB III (PAL version), @ 50 FPS/60Hz display refresh, to illustrate an unsynchronized emulator/display refresh

For some people, # 1 still isn't QUITE as smooth as the old hardware, my opinion is it's very close, and the differences that do exist might yet be down to some type of configuration problem. (Basically, I haven't screwed around with it enough to know for sure, looks pretty good to to me though.)
 
The only issue you might have is that some amiga stuff was coded for either PAL or NTSC timings, so running, say, a PAL demo at 60 FPS/60Hz might show some weird artifacts (though this is no different from the original hardware).



Running SOTB II doesn't work properly at 60fps, the audio is all messed and the games play too quickly. Instead you have to set the 50fps VSync option.

Offline paolone

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #160 on: May 03, 2008, 01:36:45 PM »
Hi, this emulation VS real_thing topic is stunning. It's quite as comparing a babe from Playboy to a doll from Realdoll.com.

You might have advantages using emulation in both way: emulated Amigas doesn't take space (you can put the realdoll in a box when you're not using it: try this with your girlfriend); they act as like as the real thing but with some limitation and, differently from realdolls, they are cheaper than the real hardware. However, using emulation and real hardware is some way different.

There are motivations to keep our Amigas alive and other to forget about them, and use them into a PC window. Everyone will find his way. Mine is quite a compromise between my actual computing needs and cheer old "Amiga feeling", which reminds of my past when I was 20 or so: I've turned an A1200 into a USB keyboard and I use it with my PC. And when I'm not working, I fire up the AROS partition or launch Amiga Forever and I'm fine.
p.bes

 

Offline mauidj

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #161 on: May 03, 2008, 06:02:38 PM »
So does anyone out there run emulation on a Mac and if so how?
I tried twice with Amiga Forever and got absolutely nowhere. Thanks to a complete lack of instructions and support from Cloanto.
I would have loved to be able to do this rather than spend the hundreds of dollars I have recently on Amiga hardware but even as along time user of both platforms I could not even get close to figuring out how to do it.
Cloanto were absolutely no help whatsoever, never replying to even one of my many emails.
I really would love to run DPaint on my MacBook Pro.
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Offline persia

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #162 on: May 03, 2008, 06:07:13 PM »
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

What we\'re witnessing is the sad, lonely crowing of that last, doomed cock.
 

Offline mauidj

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #163 on: May 03, 2008, 06:25:52 PM »
Quote

persia wrote:
Sure, check this page out:

Vanuatu German E-UAE

It's in german from Vanuatu...


http://www.rhythmiccanvas.com/personal/emulation/MaxUAE/index.html


Thanks for the link...but I'm not fluent in German unfortunately  :-(
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Offline mauidj

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #164 on: May 03, 2008, 06:39:49 PM »
Quote

persia wrote:
Absolutely yes, who needs old hardware?  Emulation is fast, simple and doesn't take more space on your desk and you can have as many Amigas as your memory allows!





Damn...how'd you do that?
I want it! :headwall:
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