Amiga One or Pegasos?

[DaveP]

Well it depends on the flip of a dice as far as I can see it.

#1 Pegasos. Sold out. You can't buy them at the moment, a replacement
Pegasos II is "promised" for September. Choose this route if you are willing
to wait till then and don't mind that it is MorphOS and not AmigaOS4. Obviously
you can run OS3.x apps but don't expect to be able to AmigaOS4 apps. Its a G3
only and doesn't have AGP and is sans a PCI slot. Plus side its microATX form
factor good for the dexterous. Has a CPU "slot" but currently no other
modules available for it ( modules are custom proprietary design ). MOS doesn't have a
PPC native TCP stack and is sort of between beta and production at the moment.

#2 AmigaONE.  Well the SE is cheap and for sale. The XEs are for sale but
the shipping is slow. Choose this if you believe that AmigaOS4 is going to
be out for it before September and you want AmigaOS4. Obviously you can
run OS3.x apps but don't expect to be able to run MOS apps. Has AGP and
an extra PCI slot ( which you can't use when an AGP card is plugged in ).  Its
ATX.  Has a CPU slot ( called Megarray apparently ) which is based on an Apple
design and there ARE different CPUs available for it. Don't know what the likely
hood of other CPU modules being built by third parties are.

Good luck, and try to make up your OWN mind.

[DaveP]

Thats strange, Pegasos is a POP based board using much the same
chipset as the A1 . By reading that you'd get the impression that it
was made by master craftsmen or something and didn't use off the shelf
parts itself.

I don't think the rest of the flamebait should be taken as "facts" either. Why
does someone always have to do this?

@ole etc.
OK so that was innacurate. Apologies. OK so the Pegasos has an
AGP slot - is it *working*? ( yes/no - no flaming needed ).

[DaveP]

@spidey

You tell me. I don't own or have ever touched one of those boards.

[DaveP]

Lando wrote:
The Pegasos is the best solution by far.
It's a custom-designed computer made by experts in the Amiga hardware field (ex-Phase5 people) whereas the AmigaOne is a Generic, off-the-shelf POP board.  

Also MorphOS is in a much more advanced state - it's actually here, now - people are using it.  OS4, though, doesn't exist as an OS (just modules which are being tested on 68k machines) and nobody knows how long it will take to complete.  Pegasos also has the benefit of firewire as standard.

Also, Genesi (the company making Pegasos) is very community-oriented and keep people informed on current developments, sponsors shows, offers large discounts on Pegasos boards to developers, and are generally very helpful and friendly.

Amiga Inc are the exact opposite as they tell lies and don't communicate and even stole money from Amiga users through their coupon scheme (If you don't know about this scheme, then back in July last year Amiga Inc ran a promotion whereby you paid $50 to get a $50 coupon for discount on AmigaOne, a T-Shirt, and entitlement to special discounts on future Amiga products.  A lot of people (including me) paid their $50 and have still recieved nothing 8 months later).

So, there's the facts - it's up to you to decide which one you want  :-)

There you go wiseguy. Last sentence. You claim they are all facts. This is
going to result in a flame war and you know it. Don't play the innocent. You want
to do this , the place for you is : Flame War Network

[DaveP]

OK here goes.

The Pegasos is the best solution by far.

Not a fact. Thats a poijnt of view.

It's a custom-designed computer made by experts in the Amiga hardware field (ex-Phase5 people) whereas the AmigaOne is a Generic, off-the-shelf POP board.  

Subjective as to whether they are experts, they have experience. The AmigaONE is
also custom designed, that also ( like the Pegasos ) happens to have something in
common with POP.

Also MorphOS is in a much more advanced state - it's actually here, now - people are using it.  

Agreed.

OS4, though, doesn't exist as an OS

Untrue. It does exist as an OS. Just only the betatesters are using it.

(just modules which are being tested on 68k machines) and nobody knows how long it will take to complete.  

Untrue.

Pegasos also has the benefit of firewire as standard.

Subjective: benefit.

Also, Genesi (the company making Pegasos) is very community-oriented and keep people informed on current developments,

Agreed.

sponsors shows, offers large discounts on Pegasos boards to developers, and are generally very helpful and friendly.

Agreed. For the most part. Although joining Phoenix to get a discount
is not my idea of a pleasurable process but that is MY subjective
opinion.

Amiga Inc are the exact opposite as they tell lies

Subjective that they are "lies". Wouldn't you say that claiming that
the dev con for Pegasos was going to be far earlier than it actually
was also a "lie"? or that G4 was going to be available on the Pegasos? You
see "lie" is an emotive and subjective statement in this context.

and don't communicate

Untrue. They do communicate, its just when they do everyone wishes
they hadn't.

and even stole money from Amiga users

Thats right, Fleecy nipped in through the window and nicked your wallet.

through their coupon scheme (If you don't know about this scheme, then back in July last year Amiga Inc ran a promotion whereby you paid $50 to get a $50 coupon for discount on AmigaOne, a T-Shirt, and entitlement to special discounts on future Amiga products.

No. You payed $50 dollars to join a club and to get a $50 coupon discount on AmigaONE. The T-shirt
although no one has one yet apparently never had a committed "when" it would pop
through the letterbox. I happen to be very negative about this scheme
but "steal" is way over the top and NOT a fact. I might not like the facts
as you clearly don't but I at least acknowledge the truth of the matter.

So, there's the facts - it's up to you to decide which one you want  :-)

Again. They are not all facts.

There you go wiseguy. Last sentence. You claim they are all facts. This is
going to result in a flame war and you know it. Don't play the innocent. You want
to do this , the place for you is : Flame War Network[/quote]

[DaveP]

Darth_X wrote:
@Tickly

Huh? In what way 'similar' its based on AmigaOS, not BSD

Yes, and.. source code is being compiled from  BSD and Linux for core components of AmigaOS4. (There is also a rumour that code for ExecSG is compiled from openVMS too.)

#1 that rumour is just a rumour.

#2 it is being cross compiled - this means that all it really uses is a compiler
that can generate PPC binaries. People used to cross compile spectrum games
using a developer kit on the Atari ST. Doesn't mean the games take any part
of the AtariST forwards onto the ZX Spectrum.

TBH, i see neither of those two things as all that important for me.

Perhaps, not for you, but to developers coming from Windows or Mac then these are desired features.

By the way, I am coming from the Windows market. Don't you want me to be in this market?

They are "desirable" features - but nice to haves - not essentials.

[DaveP]

Oh come on. Who said anything about re-inventing the wheel? Tell me
what in the AOS4 feature list you would put above this?

If you are a Windows developer playing around with MicroSoft based
components ( or even an open source or Java framework ) then
are you likely to want to learn a new API? No. What is needed is
a port of what the developers are using RIGHT NOW - embrace
and extend it.

ACM is its own peculiar beast.

They are nice to haves. First lets have a working operating system
and native development tools please. Then we will see about high
level developer kits.

[DaveP]

Not a fact. Thats a poijnt of view.

A point of view based on facts.  Maybe I would insert "In the opinion of most right-minded people" in front of that first sentence.

Childish. So everyone who doesn't agree with you is not right minded?

Can you think of anyone with more expertise in designing PowerPC Amiga hardware than Phase 5?
It is correct to say that Genesi are experts.

Experience != Expertise.

OS4, though, doesn't exist as an OS

Untrue. It does exist as an OS. Just only the betatesters are using it.

No.  It does not.    
People are running PARTS of OS4 on their classic Amigas.  

Oh yes and you accuse me of pedantry. Please tell me how you know
more of the current status of the Beta than I do?

(just modules which are being tested on 68k machines) and nobody knows how long it will take to complete.  

Untrue.

No.  Not untrue.  Unless you happen to know someone with a working Beta of OS4 booting into Workbench on Teron boards with no 68k present?  

No. You said "just modules which are being tested on 68k machines" which is clearly
incorrect. Even in the public domain people like you know that ExecSG is PPC native and
is being tested on PPC machines unless you are going to dream up some PPC emulator
for 68k. Beyond the public domain we don't need to go - despite you trying to
shift ground on the criteria because we have already contradicted your "fact" with
the truth as is publically known.

Pegasos also has the benefit of firewire as standard.

Subjective: benefit.

Oh.  So Firewire is a disadvantage?

I repeat: subjective: benefit.

and don't communicate

Untrue. They do communicate, its just when they do everyone wishes
they hadn't.

10+ emails unanswered.  Do not communicate.

Communicate, post here, executive updates that you refer to. Even HMetal
( Ray Akey ) talks openly in the forum. Press release we have all been ripping
shreds out of on CeBit was signed by Amiga Inc. They are certainly less
communicative than they used to be.

and even stole money from Amiga users

Thats right, Fleecy nipped in through the window and nicked your wallet.

No. He was slightly more subtle than that.  Not much, mind you.

Care to explain?

through their coupon scheme (If you don't know about this scheme, then back in July last year Amiga Inc ran a promotion whereby you paid $50 to get a $50 coupon for discount on AmigaOne, a T-Shirt, and entitlement to special discounts on future Amiga products.

No. You payed $50 dollars to join a club and to get a $50 coupon discount on AmigaONE. The T-shirt
although no one has one yet apparently never had a committed "when" it would pop
through the letterbox. I happen to be very negative about this scheme
but "steal" is way over the top and NOT a fact. I might not like the facts
as you clearly don't but I at least acknowledge the truth of the matter.

Pedantry.  The fact that Amiga Inc didn't specify WHEN the product would delivered is neither here nor there.  

Not pedantry. You were claiming that your POV were facts.

They said:-
"All items will be delivered after the completion of the promotion, and initial sign up program".
The promotion ended in August last year.

Yep. They said that and it is still AFTER the completion of the promotion.

If I buy a product online, and that company takes my money, and eight months later the product I ordered has still not arrived, that I have had no explanation from that company as to the reasons for the delay, that I have no replies to my demands for re-payment of my money, I think it is fair to say  that the company in question has stolen my money.  In the real world.

Whats your club membership details? The product you ordered was "club membership".

Well, you haven't convinced me that anything I wrote is not 100% true I'm afraid.

No, what I haven't done is changed your opinion of Amiga Inc. I have clearly
demonstrated that you posted your opinion as fact.

The only one flaming people in this thread is you.  I'm sure ann will welcome you with open arms.

[/quote]
Oh so disagree with you and exposing your trolling for a flame war for the world to see
is flaming you? Amazing.

[DaveP]

Paul_Gadd wrote:
@dweebgeek

Ignore the "Amiga Rulez" people and get what does the job you need it for.

As for Amiga inc, they quote wild and untrue release dates but they are not liars simply because they are "Amiga inc", if this was any other company outside of Amiga  you guys would not be defending them as if they are some soft of heros.

I couldn't think of a less of an "Amiga Rulez" person than myself, well
maybe Bill Buck but thats it. I'm not defending them *because*
they are "Amiga Inc".

I would not go so far as to accuse them of theft, I was not stupid enough
to fall for the I Am Amiga rubbish in the first place for a start.

I would not describe Amiga Inc as "liars" ( which has serious overtones
at least in this country to do with litigation )
nor would I describe Genesi as "liars" just because they both have failed
to meet ALL the expectation that they set, have slipped dates, were let down
by suppliers etc. It is called the "real world". I mean look back at Viscorp there
are still questions unanswered for a lot of people that go around accusing
BBRV of deliberately misleading the public during that time. The reality
of the matter is that there is things that you can say in public that go
tits up practically as you thought something was a done deal.

I happen to have little respect for the marketing speak that is spoken
by every Executive update and I have a LOT of respect for the straight
talk of Alan ( even though I don't always agree with them ).

[DaveP]

@lando

Right. Whatever. If you say it enough to yourself you might convince
yourself. This is as far as Ill allow myself to be baited by a troll I should
have done what others did and just ignore you.

[DaveP]

@spidey

Thanks bud!

[DaveP]

amigamad wrote:
The amigaone pop motherboard was an ibm desighn

AFAIK Open POP is an IBM design ( well spec ) but the Teron CX/PX
contain enough Mai design investment to be considered a "custom
design".

and no small company has the money to desighn something better than ibm the pegosis  is desighned by ex phase 5 people if they were so bloody good how come phase 5 went bankrupt .

Being good at producing accelerator boards to work with the A1200
and A4000 does not make you expert at designing complete POP
motherboards.  This also means that just because they didn't have
a good business model with the accelerators does not mean they
don't with the Pegasos motherboards. There is a difference between
the "talent" and the "director".

The suggestion is that there is something "Amiga" specialised about
the Pegasos when in fact it is just another PPC motherboard.  The
Amiga "expertise" went into MorphOS. Any claims that somehow
the Pegasos is more "custom" because it was designed by ex PhaseV
people is stretching the point to breaking.

Both machines are overpriced but os 4 has much better features being implemented than morph os neither of these machines is as good or as powerful as the pc im using now and they never will be.

AOS4 isn't out yet, MorphOS you can't buy new because it is sold out at
the moment.

im still looking forward to my a1 though .if anything these machines could be the last amiga and amiga clone and we can just let the amiga name die and move on looking at it in reality why would you buy either. :-D  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?

I don't mind letting the Amiga name die, to be honest the baggage of
the name is not exactly a good thing. What I am interested in is what
Hyperion have come up with in AmigaOS4.

[DaveP]

@Marktime

:-D

Agreed.

But the point is calling people "liars" is interpreted ( these days at least ) as meaning
that they always lied and will always lie. Lying indicates some form of intent, now I would
not think that there is anyone on this planet who is over the age of 16 who
has not deliberate told a mistruth. But there is no point branding them
liars for the rest of their lives.

When posting about "facts" people should stick to the facts and not
their opinion of the facts.

So saying on the following occassions Amiga Inc knowingly lied to
the public:
* list of occassions with hopefully some evidence

...is as close to "facts" as you can get.

If I thought that Amiga Inc. were deliberately pulling an elaborate con
trick on potential customers then I would say so ( and have come close
to this in the past ). But they have little to do with AmigaOS4 as far
as I can make out ( opinion/point of view here ) so using that as a means
to muddy the water on what was a civilised debate up to now is a bit
disingenuous.

Actually at the moment I feel a bit sad for BBRV because they are unable
to meet what is clearly a significant demand for their product at the moment. On
the brink of all out victory - they stare down the jaws of defeat - or
at least a significant setback. I would hate to get so far and to have
had victory snatched from my fingers!  Anyone who is crazy enough
to invest their financial future in this market deserves SOME respect
and that includes Hyperion, Eyetech, Genesi and ... erm ....

;-)

[DaveP]

@JoannaK

"Sounds like you are trying to give impression you are only one around knowing *The Truth* and thus other peoples opinions have no value"

So basically you agree, Lando was giving opinions
and calling them facts.

[DaveP]

@AmiGR

In Gerald's case it IS expertise. He managed to:
1) Design dual CPU cards that include SCSI on
an extremely small board with 11 layers.

Dual implies SMP. No one doubts that he achieved
the job at hand on an accelerator card.

Experience != expertise

2) He managed to design the Pegasos, prove to
MAI that there are bugs they didn't even know about
and fix them, under MAI's name (the fix Eyetech used)

So? I think you need to look up the definition of expert.

3) He is known to IBM's production managers by name.

ROFLMAO!!!!! So am I bud, so am I.  Which production managers, now come on give me their names and Ill call them up and ask them. Ill also tell you what percentage of the IBM's "production managers" that
is with stats to back me up.

So what if he is known to some IBM production managers - I mean excuse me while I fall down on the floor and beg for forgiveness. Well I would, but
I've got to stop laughing first.