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AuthorTopic: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"  (Read 21836 times)

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Offline wawrzon

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #120 on: February 18, 2020, 01:32:48 PM »
AROS exists solely because AmigaOS has been in constant legal limbo ever since 1994.

i dont think so. aros has likely been attempted to move to a platforms amigaos has not been supposed to run on. in order to become hardware agnostic the os would need some serious rewrite anyway. thats why opening the sources of amniga os might be helpful to improve aros and its compatibility, but it wouldnt render aros project irrelevant in any way.

guest11527

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Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #121 on: February 18, 2020, 01:41:57 PM »
in order to become hardware agnostic the os would need some serious rewrite anyway. thats why opening the sources of amniga os might be helpful to improve aros and its compatibility, but it wouldnt render aros project irrelevant in any way.
As I said before, AmigaOs is a very bad starting point for a platform agnostic operating system, the sources do not help there at all - it's all closely bound to the hardware it is running on. If you want a portable system, start with a portable source - AmigaOs isn't, and there is really not much to be learned there.

Look, for example, at the graphics system. Lack of abstraction, bitmap definitions that directly depend on the planar graphics system, graphics primitivities that are bound to the hardware like the copper, and low-level register banging. Also, graphics has quite some architecture to build up and modify copper lists (not present on any other hardware), and then nothing better to do than to use bypass functions that poke the created copper lists directly without going through the abstraction level.

AmigaOs is more an example of "how not to do it" than a good starting point for a development. You might be quite disappointed about the helpfulness of its sources...
 

Offline DrProcton

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #122 on: February 18, 2020, 01:44:42 PM »
Thomas, when is supposed Os 3.2 to be out?
Have you set a release date?
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #123 on: February 18, 2020, 01:48:24 PM »
I’ve got to agree with Thomas here. Without strong governance there is real risk of fragmentation from an open source model.

oh man. im apparently late to these walls of text orgies. now, one thing i always am puzzled about is, why those who long so much for dictatorial situation do really want to align themselves with anything amiga. in my recollection amiga was always about anarchy. and it remains so. even the shady character of many if not most related projects and individuals behind them is an emanation of this fact.

bringing up open source in general or specifically aros, as if it was chaos incarnate in this comparison is slightly ridiculous.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 01:51:23 PM by wawrzon »
 
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Offline cgutjahr

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #124 on: February 18, 2020, 01:50:08 PM »
3. We don't currently have the systems and structures in place for successful open-source governance.
Those are just big words, what do they mean? I explained why (and how) AmigaOS development could continue exactly like it did IMHO - what are those "systems and structures  for open source governance" we allegedly need and why do we need them?

Offline wawrzon

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #125 on: February 18, 2020, 01:50:35 PM »
AmigaOs is more an example of "how not to do it" than a good starting point for a development. You might be quite disappointed about the helpfulness of its sources...

a agree. this lection has been learned. therefore aros.
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #126 on: February 18, 2020, 02:29:21 PM »
Those are just big words, what do they mean? I explained why (and how) AmigaOS development could continue exactly like it did IMHO - what are those "systems and structures  for open source governance" we allegedly need and why do we need them?
I don't know who "we" is, but yes, "I need them". There is too much noise, too much time taken in discussions that are non-technical, and too much trolling going on. Too much "support issues" that are better handled by a first-level support team, and lack of moderation to define goals and direction. You aren't developing, so it's probably fair to ask those that do what they need.
 
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guest11527

  • Guest
Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #127 on: February 18, 2020, 02:31:00 PM »
Thomas, when is supposed Os 3.2 to be out?
Have you set a release date?
How can I possibly know with all the mess going on? When, and even more important, if and by whom? Technical discussions here end usually in a troll orgy by the usual suspects, and non-technical ones I cannot answer.

Offline kolla

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #128 on: February 18, 2020, 02:38:58 PM »
Technical discussions here end usually in a troll orgy by the usual suspects, and non-technical ones I cannot answer.
The troll orgy here has been about non-technical discussions, which you are only happy to jump into.
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Offline DrProcton

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #129 on: February 18, 2020, 03:02:28 PM »
Thomas, when is supposed Os 3.2 to be out?
Have you set a release date?
How can I possibly know with all the mess going on? When, and even more important, if and by whom? Technical discussions here end usually in a troll orgy by the usual suspects, and non-technical ones I cannot answer.
OK, but from a developer standpoint, is 3.2 ready for release now or will need some more work?
 

Offline number6

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #130 on: February 18, 2020, 04:04:46 PM »
@Thomas Richter

Quote
Or do you mean AmigaOs 4? That is not even part of the discussion between the two.

The trademark is licensed. Granted the court documents show that licensing would continue if Cloanto prevails in the trademark case, which is currently "stayed".
But since Ben's goal is to own the trademarks as well, I'm not sure you can dismiss this as not being part of the discussion.

#6

Offline Matt_H

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #131 on: February 18, 2020, 06:48:14 PM »
3. We don't currently have the systems and structures in place for successful open-source governance.
Those are just big words, what do they mean? I explained why (and how) AmigaOS development could continue exactly like it did IMHO - what are those "systems and structures  for open source governance" we allegedly need and why do we need them?

Fair questions. I've been thinking about this sort of thing for a few days. this 2006 article from Sun Microsystems is a little old but has some good points, getting into the merits and pitfalls of open source. Bear in mind that he's speaking about large, corporate-backed open-source efforts; we'd need something appropriate to the scale of our tiny community:
Quote
I believe the biggest challenge for an open source community is to understand in what ways governance will impact its community members. Governance is critical to an open source project. While open source licensing lets people have access to source code, this doesn't have to mean that chaos ensues. In fact, open source projects are typically very well organized and are run with a great deal of professionalism and discipline. Governance helps ensure that the people running the project can decide what gets incorporated into the source code.

There are one or two open source communities that really don't seem to have good governance. The lack of good governance leads to a loss of freedom for the people that use the software. Good governance lets open source communities decide upon standards, and good open source standards are implemented by multiple software products leading to the long-term sustainability of all of the software.

<snip>

There isn't a single one-size-fits-all approach to governance. Different communities have different needs, but there are also attributes that are essential to good governance — like meritocracy, transparency of process, and open access for everybody with the necessary skills to participate in a project. How governance gets structured really depends on the organization. For example, governance of the Apache Software Foundation is quite different than the governance of the GNOME Software Foundation. Both organizations are very meritocratic, but the Apache approach is very formal, while the GNOME governance model is more relaxed. Both are exemplars of good governance.

<snip>

Sun would have open sourced Java a long time ago. But open sourcing commercial software is more than just picking a license. Existing developers need to be respected. And, it's important to figure out how the governance of the project will respect the contributors. There are also issues about proving relicensing rights — not to mention producing an environment in which a well-designed and backwards compatible implementation of the Java platform can be kept in the marketplace. So, Sun isn't delaying. Sun is figuring out which license will work best, devising governance, reviewing copyright ownership and so on.

I've also been looking at Apache's and Mozilla's governance practices.

Fundamentally I'd say it's a combination of institutional management, project management, and community management. The professionalism and discipline cited above are key. We need (1) user- and developer-backed decision makers to set long-term goals and priorities of individual releases, we need (2) community liaisons to stay on the pulse of user needs and to be the first line of communication so that (3) skilled developers can focus on executing the roadmap for a given release.

Community buy-in is absolutely critical at every stage, but part of our challenge is that we probably have as many opinions in the community as we have users :)
The professionalism and discipline are essential in the process so that everyone's opinions are respected, even if some people's opinions aren't adopted verbatim. That's how we prevent (further) fragmentation.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 06:53:55 PM by Matt_H »
 
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Offline wawrzon

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #132 on: February 18, 2020, 07:22:22 PM »
dream on.

while work is being done without all these essential considerations. on amigadev slack channels people meet around the hour and work is being done on m68k and vampire stuff along with daily aros development and assets to os4 such as sdl 1.2 and 2.

i prefer uncoordinated community effort than nothing at all and certainly over useless talk.
 

Offline Matt_H

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #133 on: February 18, 2020, 09:43:03 PM »
Well, yeah, of course it's wishful thinking. So much in Amigaland is.

And I absolutely agree that uncoordinated development is better than no development. But if we could actually get ourselves organized just think about how much better a position we'd be in as a community.
 
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Offline wawrzon

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #134 on: February 19, 2020, 12:58:08 AM »
hate to think we might have gathered ourselves around something that would drag ourselves along into the mud.
other than that, yeah, as i already mentioned, we are actually organizing ourselves. kind of. perhaps not in a way you would like. but everybody is free to stay away.