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AuthorTopic: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"  (Read 23094 times)

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Online Matt_H

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #105 on: February 17, 2020, 10:58:29 PM »
@ cgutjahr

I guess to summarize my thinking:
1. We already have a mess.
2. We are at risk of losing critical mass to sustain the platform as a whole.
3. We don't currently have the systems and structures in place for successful open-source governance.
4. Therefore, open source risks further fragmentation.
5. Further fragmentation exponentially increases the risk of a fork losing critical mass--including the "official" fork.
6. Therefore we might end up with an even bigger mess.

To reiterate: I'm not against open source in principle, just worried that in our current circumstances it could make matters worse. Project management is extremely complicated, and open-source project management even more so. If it's not done right the result is chaos.

If we can somehow solve #3, then choo choo, I'm all aboard the open-source train. In the meantime I just want this legal foolishness to end so that someone can deliver products for me to buy.
 
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Online Matt_H

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #106 on: February 17, 2020, 11:08:57 PM »
@ kolla

Hey, man. You. Need. To. Relax.

It's an unenforceable software license. No one cares what you do with the copy you bought. No one is even going to find out unless you broadcast it on a public forum. Here's the short version if you want to make sure you're ethically in the clear:
1. Don't make copies that you then give away or sell.
2. For however many machines you're going to use it on, buy that many copies.

Enough, please!
 
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Offline F1Lupo

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #107 on: February 18, 2020, 03:30:49 AM »
@ cgutjahr

I guess to summarize my thinking:
1. We already have a mess.
2. We are at risk of losing critical mass to sustain the platform as a whole.
3. We don't currently have the systems and structures in place for successful open-source governance.
4. Therefore, open source risks further fragmentation.
5. Further fragmentation exponentially increases the risk of a fork losing critical mass--including the "official" fork.
6. Therefore we might end up with an even bigger mess.

To reiterate: I'm not against open source in principle, just worried that in our current circumstances it could make matters worse. Project management is extremely complicated, and open-source project management even more so. If it's not done right the result is chaos.

If we can somehow solve #3, then choo choo, I'm all aboard the open-source train. In the meantime I just want this legal foolishness to end so that someone can deliver products for me to buy.
+1  8)
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Offline Tygre

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #108 on: February 18, 2020, 03:49:01 AM »
@Matt_H @Thomas Richter

Don't feed the Troll ::)

Offline kolla

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #109 on: February 18, 2020, 05:27:05 AM »
It's an unenforceable software license. No one cares what you do with the copy you bought.
If it is unenforceable, it is meaningless and should not exist. Thomas who is otherwise obsessed about rules and regulations (not to mention settlements) being followed to the letter, has not even bothered to read the license that software he is writing himself is distributed under. You are pretty much saying that the license as it is now, can be ignored.

Quote
No one is even going to find out unless you broadcast it on a public forum.
There is a thread here about how people do backups, it should be obvious now that making backups of OS installations are in violation of the license. But the license is unenforceable and to be ignored.

Quote
Here's the short version if you want to make sure you're ethically in the clear:
1. Don't make copies that you then give away or sell.
2. For however many machines you're going to use it on, buy that many copies.

Then just define “machine” as any instance of a computer, hardware or virtual, capable of running “the AmigaOS” and permit multiple copies to exist on multiple systems for backup purposes, no crazy restrictions on doing backups over networks, nor requirements regarding locales etc, and you are golden - Hyperion should hire you as their license lawyer.

If OS 3.2 comes under a license this simple, I have no problem buying licenses to cover somewhere between 10 to 20 installations, and have OS 3.2 on all my systems. Isn’t this how things should be?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 05:52:15 AM by kolla »
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
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A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline Minuous

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #110 on: February 18, 2020, 05:52:19 AM »
Well, these kind of EULAs are not enforceable in most jurisdictions anyway so stressing about what it says is probably not worthwhile.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 05:54:08 AM by Minuous »
 

Offline kolla

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #111 on: February 18, 2020, 06:44:50 AM »
Well, these kind of EULAs are not enforceable in most jurisdictions anyway so stressing about what it says is probably not worthwhile.
Another AmigaOS developer stating that the software license is to be ignored.
Thanks, duly noted.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #112 on: February 18, 2020, 06:58:59 AM »
Hyperion only offer one license, and it is ridiculous, ambiguous and extremely limiting.
Apparently, only for one guy.

Yes, ONE or - 1, 2 or 3 - which can be either 1 or 2 or 3, or it can be 1 and 2 or 3?
In my English, a sentence that goes "A,B or C" lists three alternatives.


I am happy, but this is not about happiness, it is about finding out what the f Hyperion are trying to communicate, and what potential consequences there are.
No, Kolla, it is not. It is about "finding reasons to complain". You know that, I know that. There is no problem with the license as such, just the usual legal glibberish, read it with common sense, same as a court would, and there is no problem at all.

That is a rather big issue, don't you think?
No, I do not think so.

No, I have not, I am a *developer*. It is not my job to create licenses, read them, or check them.
[/quote]

I see, that figures - so then, why can you even possibly make the claim that it is not the license that prevents me from buying more copies of OS 3.1.4, and possibly the future OS 3.2?
[/QUOTE]
Because, Kolla, I know you. Nothing prevents you from buying. You just find reasons to for you to complain about to claim that something is preventing you - that is the true reason, not some license that is quite clear.

If I read this license, I'm quite sure what I'm able to do or not to do. It boils down to "one license per hardware, for systems which are designed to execute AmigaOs, no copies in the internet, do not share the stuff, do not mess with the binaries, use the right language setting, we waive responsibility to the degree possible", that's it.


Was it because it was *I* who wrote it, and you have a certain soft sport for me?
Yes, apparently. Everybody else, I would have taken serious. But this is just hillarious.

Blablabla technobabbel - I perfectly know *why*, sheesh.
Well, then why make a rumble.

It is nevertheless a solution. If it makes you feel any better, I typically use CygnusEd for these tasks, fully paid and registered - I find Olsen a much more pleasant person to communicate with that you ;)
Works for me if stop pestering me.

Many edit all prefs programs to use a different font than topaz/8 - what scum they are, breaking the license!
Yup, so don't use programs that modify the binaries that come with the Os. Guess why that rule is there. To keep customers away from doing stupid things, then come back and argue that their Os broke.

Dumb question - why did your program _allow_ people to chose fonts in different size then?
All of this was/is experimental, and no, it is not for the public.

It is almost a shame you did not release it though, would be ironic if the OS came with a program specifically there to break one of the conditions in the license.
It did not break the license because it did not modify binaries. Besides, a tool that would be delivered as part of the Os can hardly break a license.


Not if the license stays at it is.
What? Scalable prefs break the license? I'm sorry, I must be in the wrong movie. The license says "do not mess with the binaries". It does not forbid an Os component to provide a scalable GUI.

Not by the definition Microsoft uses, but with the Hyperion license it is not clear. My washing machine does have a computer in it, and so it is indeed a computer system too - potentially powerful enough to run an incarnation of UAE, and hence a possible target for AmigaOS.
No, it is not. It is not designed for executing AmigaOs, so installation of AmigaOs on it is excluded. That's what the license text says, quite clearly. Does not fall into 1), 2) or 3).


Then perhaps you should also stop being obnoxious with those who have read it.
The point is not the reading part. The point is that you make such a big noise about something completely harmless, and not because you don't understand it - I consider you smart enough.


Excuse me - it was *YOU* who wrote "Nope" when I stated that the license prevents me from buying any more copies of OS 3.1.4 - it was not Hyperion, it was YOU.
Correct. It is not the license that stops you from buying, Kolla, I say that again. The license is ok, it is you, trying to find reasons to complain, that is the reason. I know that from the very beginning - you just try to pick some fake arguments, that's all.

I only WISH it was actually someone from Hyperion who could bring answers here - you are clearly NOT the right person - not that it ever stops you though.
As licenses go? No, I'm not the right person, definitely. But you don't need that person either. You have made your decision to dislike Hyperion, and now you try to find reasons. it's quite obvious that nobody from Hyperion is willing to explain the license to do you either because the case is clear.

So why do you feel the need constantly jumping in to act like Hyperion's complaint department - all you have to do is... nothing!
I develop. That's it.

Is your ultimate goal for replying me, to have me banned from here? Is that all you want?
I admit that this would be a relief.

Btw - the ATAPIMajik module works great on all systems so far.
Not here at the betatesters side, so it will not ship.

And is ARexx' DATE(CENTURY) noted on the bug tracker? It still counts from 1900, not 2000.
I don't know what you mean by "still", but the problem there was is that it required some additional research to find out what exactly the Rexx specifications say before attempting a fix. There was some "wannabe" fix in one of the inofficial boing bags I looked at, but it also got things wrong. In some cases, it requires a bit more time to find out what exactly is right, and leaving a bug in is sometimes better than making a premature fix.


guest11527

  • Guest
Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #113 on: February 18, 2020, 07:16:56 AM »
1. We already have a mess.
2. We are at risk of losing critical mass to sustain the platform as a whole.
3. We don't currently have the systems and structures in place for successful open-source governance.
4. Therefore, open source risks further fragmentation.
5. Further fragmentation exponentially increases the risk of a fork losing critical mass--including the "official" fork.
6. Therefore we might end up with an even bigger mess.
That is pretty much it, indeed. Thank you. Item #3 is really a big issue. The big problem I see is a suitable moderation to create a climate within which development can proceed in an orderly fashion.
 
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Offline kolla

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #114 on: February 18, 2020, 08:30:05 AM »
And is ARexx' DATE(CENTURY) noted on the bug tracker? It still counts from 1900, not 2000.
I don't know what you mean by "still", but the problem there was is that it required some additional research to find out what exactly the Rexx specifications say before attempting a fix. There was some "wannabe" fix in one of the inofficial boing bags I looked at, but it also got things wrong. In some cases, it requires a bit more time to find out what exactly is right, and leaving a bug in is sometimes better than making a premature fix.

Other Rexx implementations have agreed, and show value according to language specification - ARexx does not.

https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSLTBW_2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.ikja300/date.htm

Quote
Century
the number of days, including the current day, since and including January 1 of the last year that is a multiple of 100 in the form: ddddd (no leading zeros). Example: A call to DATE(C) on March 13, 1992, returns 33675, the number of days from 1 January 1900 to 13 March 1992. Similarly, a call to DATE(C) on November 20, 2001, returns 690, the number of days from 1 January 2000 to 20 November 2001.
Note: When used for date_format1, this option is valid when input_date is not specified.

Quote
[kolla@bergum] :> echo 'SAY DATE(C)' | regina
7354
and this the number of days from first of January 2000.

Quote
Minimig:> rx "SAY DATE(C)"
43878
and this is closer to the number of days from first of January 1900.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
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A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #115 on: February 18, 2020, 08:45:04 AM »
What "critical mass" can we loose?  ;)

for commercial software development? When yes what commercial software development?

Most software developed right now are games and those bang the hardware and do not use the OS

For commercial software you must offer some kind of future, new chances

"preserving" the old platform is not enough

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #116 on: February 18, 2020, 08:48:30 AM »
Other Rexx implementations have agreed, and show value according to language specification - ARexx does not.
Please note that my formulation used "was", not "is". There is a v47 rexxsyslib which fixes this according to the language specs, but not only for the 20th and 21st century, as the BB fix did. It should hopefully be ok for the years the Gregorian calendar is valid. It is this type of research that was missing.

Offline kolla

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #117 on: February 18, 2020, 08:58:40 AM »
In my English, a sentence that goes "A,B or C" lists three alternatives.
of which one is "[a computer system] for which a legitimate version of AmigaOS was or is available"

My current laptop is an old macbook, and there are several versions of UAE available, for which I can buy (and have bought) kickstart and operating systems from Cloanto. So clearly, this is a computer system for which a version of AmigaOS is available. Or perhaps the products from Cloanto are not defined as "AmigaOS". There is even AmiKit, a commercial product, that exists solely for such computer systems - sold explicitly to be used with emulators and based on OS 3.1.4:

https://www.amikit.amiga.sk/amigaos314

Legal? Illegal? What gives.

Quote
Not by the definition Microsoft uses, but with the Hyperion license it is not clear. My washing machine does have a computer in it, and so it is indeed a computer system too - potentially powerful enough to run an incarnation of UAE, and hence a possible target for AmigaOS.
No, it is not. It is not designed for executing AmigaOs, so installation of AmigaOs on it is excluded.

* "designed for executing AmigaOs" is also not listed as a condition in the license - the closest you get is the one, out of three requirements of which only one must be met, about a "[a computer system] which was especially prepared for running AmigaOS through the use of a dedicated (flash)rom or similar mechanism", a point that is made redundant by the next point "or [a computer system] for which a legitimate version of AmigaOS was or is available", unless Cloanto's versions of AmigaOS are not considered legitimate.

* UAE is explicitly designed for executing AmigaOS.

Quote
That's what the license text says, quite clearly. Does not fall into 1), 2) or 3).

This only makes sense if you also say that there exists no legitimate AmigaOS to be used with software emulators.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 09:32:44 AM by kolla »
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #118 on: February 18, 2020, 08:58:44 AM »
For commercial software you must offer some kind of future, new chances
Which "future"? Amiga is a retro-platform, it needs to run the old software, while getting rid of some of the problems the previous releases had, and getting rid of the patches people installed to improve experience.
I do not consider that there will be any big vendor of a big software house that may be interested in developing for such a platform. It is too small a niche, and too uncapable as a system. But I do see the need to maintain the system.

"preserving" the old platform is not enough
It's certainly more than enough for me, and more than enough work left for it. AmigaOs has too many roadblocks on the way to make it fit for something modern. If you want to do that, create something new and avoid all the constructional problems AmigaOs has - this is probably my main point of critique on AROS.

Just to give you ideas, the design of exec to build semaphores around signals, and multitasking coordination on a global Forbid() lock is just "upside down". In a real multi-core system, you build the system around synchronization primitives (semaphores or mutexes), then create message passing on top of that, and not vice-versa. Leave alone such "details" such as memory protection or resource tracking that is intrinsically missing, and the idiocracy of "BPTRs" and the duplication of devices and handlers on top of an almost, but not quite identical message passing system. AmigaOs is very badly prepared for the future. If you want to make it ready, ditch it and create something reasonable. But even then, I wouldn't hold my breath that any software house picks that up as a development target. AmigaDE failed, to name one, and for good reason.


 
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Offline kolla

Re: "Hyperion and Cloanto allegedly close to finalizing settlement"
« Reply #119 on: February 18, 2020, 12:02:19 PM »
AROS exists solely because AmigaOS has been in constant legal limbo ever since 1994.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS