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Author Topic: Would it not be better to work together?  (Read 5508 times)

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Offline nicholas

Re: Would it not be better to work together?
« Reply #29 from previous page: March 06, 2011, 06:08:04 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;620020
Lol! The scary thing is that old photo is at least 13 years old!!! I have a few wrinkles and a few gray hairs now :)



:P
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Offline smerf

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Re: Would it not be better to work together?
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2011, 06:10:05 PM »
Hi,

@Bloodline,
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Lol! The scary thing is that old photo is at least 13 years old!!! I have a few wrinkles and a few gray hairs now
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

so, update your picture.

bet your bald like me, and that flowing hair is gone.

smerf
I have no idea what your talking about, so here is a doggy with a small pancake on his head.

MorphOS is a MAC done a little better
 

Offline Digiman

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Re: Would it not be better to work together?
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2011, 06:57:37 PM »
Quote from: smerf;620029
Hi,

Wow, you still buy off the shelf computers!!!

I build my own, that way I get to choose what I have in my computer, the only off the shelf computer I have in my house is for my youngest son and yes you are right it is a piece of crap.

As far as game consoles please take it to a sony or nintendo site. I wouldn't own one of those piece of sheet if you paid me. I have a WII only because it came with the car I purchased, I laugh at it every time I go in the living room.

PC Power User
smerf


The console rivalry and benefit to users since the 80s hasn't changed, unlike the days of ST/AMIGA/ARCHIMEDES/PC/MAC/X68000. Hardware is all the same now which sucks.

Sure you can tell the man in the street to go and mail order a PPC/Coldfire setup but that has nothing to do with real world choice for non-geek purchasers ie 99.999999999% of the world. In the 80s/90s ordinary people buying a computer had real choices. Even AROS/LINUX users are using thesame X86/PCI-E motherboards as Windows users.

If you wanted to play 60FPS 1920x1080 games and watch HD movies in 2006/7 would have cost 5x as much asa PS3......only a lunatic solution then. Sure 4 years on it's only 300-500 more but don't compare powerful machines technically with that NintenTOY for babies and single mums ;)
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Would it not be better to work together?
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2011, 07:16:31 PM »
Quote from: dammy;620015
Problem for even open source is that it has to be a modern open source to survive.  I think that is the biggest loadstone for the Amiga community, it's just reimplementation of an old school OS (which was cutting edge at the time).  Until that loadstone is gone, any cooperation is going to be futile.  I know, I just touched a third rail, but once the fog of battle clears and the view of the destruction that the community has gone under for the past 17 years, there is not much left worth fixing, it's time to rebuild.  That means the old has to be torn down for the new.
People keep saying this, but if you're going to throw it all out, why even pretend it's the same thing? If your ideal system has nothing in common with the Amiga hardware and nothing in common with the Amiga software, why even call it an Amiga? Just accept that the Amiga doesn't suit your needs and build your own thing.
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Offline runequester

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Re: Would it not be better to work together?
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2011, 07:36:37 PM »
The smaller and less objectively important a group is, the sharper and more entrenched the divisions.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Would it not be better to work together?
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2011, 08:02:36 PM »
Quote from: smerf;620032
Hi,

@Bloodline,
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Lol! The scary thing is that old photo is at least 13 years old!!! I have a few wrinkles and a few gray hairs now
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

so, update your picture.

bet your bald like me, and that flowing hair is gone.

smerf
Nah! My avatar is only a couple of years old... I've more hair than ever... Errm, all ove actually :(

Offline eb15

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Re: Would it not be better to work together?
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2011, 01:44:32 AM »
Quote from: dammy;620015
Problem for even open source is that it has to be a  modern open source to survive. ... That means the old has to be torn  down for the new.

I don't think you can honestly say your new Amiga-like OS product is  better than the old unless you can duplicate all the intrinsic look and  feel functionality the users of the old product experienced and were  familiar with, while adding new features and enhancements while finding  minimal incompatibilities with their past experience.  There have been  multiple alternative OSes that have claimed to be "a better Amiga" by  their devotees, but since they couldn't duplicate the same user  experience we're here at Amiga.org talking about classics, emulations,  AROS, MorphOS, and OS4.

There were lots of little nooks and  crannies in the AmigaDOS 3.1 system software and user experience which  were sorely lacking in AROS until recently, and a few that still need to  be addressed.  I don't think there is any intention to freeze things in  AROS at the old API, its just a minimum standard by which to judge  "improvements" by -- since there's so little chance that the original  Amiga OS, MorphOS or OS4 codes would be open sourced for a reference  point and compatibility layer in an open source Amiga-like OS.

I  agree that "defining community standards" isn't going to really help  anyone at this time.  OS4 and MorphOS have already chosen their paths,  and AROS has its own directions to go in.
 

Offline runequester

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Re: Would it not be better to work together?
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2011, 02:16:41 AM »
I guess it gets into that sticky conversation of "what is amiga"
 

Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Would it not be better to work together?
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2011, 02:42:37 AM »
I dont buy into the whole, "It's too old/crippled" arguement that comes up from time to time. Look at how far Microsoft have gone by slowly but surely updating an old base. Same with Unix based systems. The alternative isnt very attractive either, whichis to build up a pretty generic OS based on industry standards, many of which are standards by little more than luck, advertising and marketting and are far from optimal, ergo the typically bloated mainstream solutions. To go down that road, although easier isnt very interesting for my tastes. Id rather some challenges on an interesting system than to lose the uniqueness. Additionally even using the generic route it'll still be an alternative system, facing many of the problems that alternative systems do regardless. The simple fact is alternative OSes are always going to face an uphill battle and be a little behind the ball wih some technologies should they chose to chase mass conformity. Doesnt however in my opinion mean they need to turn into a mishmash of generic parts.
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Would it not be better to work together?
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2011, 03:24:30 AM »
As for working together to a degree people already do. Where things are shareable they often are shared. There's been plenty of situations where aros/morphos/os4.x have benefitted from software for aros/morphos/os4.x, even direct invlovement by developers of one system helping with work to port said software to another system. It wouldnt be often that core components are shared between the OSes (apart from aros, due to its open source nature), but with slightly different paths, why should they ?
Personally I dont think the seperation between "camps" is as heavy as if often suggested.
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline brownb2

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Re: Would it not be better to work together?
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2011, 12:53:27 PM »
Quote from: lsmart;619960
But if you look at Emacs, KDE, Gnome, OpenOffice and GIMP you will realize that they are bloated and inefficient compared to the alternatives that where created by non teamworking individuals who had a different concept (larswm, amiwm, xfig, ...)

Them's fightin' words... need to be careful around here!
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Offline dammy

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Re: Would it not be better to work together?
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2011, 01:28:07 PM »
Quote from: Franko;620021
Imagine the outcry if they said "it's time to tear down the Pyramids (or the local chippy)" some things are classic and timeless and are best left in the hands of the curators and those who truly appreciate them for what they are... :)


I will point out that the pyramids is where you bury the dead.  I'm not saying anything bad about 68K, it's a good medium that can be emulated and integrated into a next generation system.  My problem is what being called next generation because they are reimplementation of 68K and not next generation.
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Offline vidarh

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Re: Would it not be better to work together?
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2011, 02:12:49 PM »
Quote from: eb15;620111

There were lots of little nooks and  crannies in the AmigaDOS 3.1 system software and user experience which  were sorely lacking in AROS until recently, and a few that still need to  be addressed.


To take an example: There are *still* parts of the console.device and console handler that needs to be added to even match 1.1, never mind later versions of AmigaOS. When I last worked at the console code, a lot of my test cases where example code Commodore released on early Fish disks, written in 1985. A ton of it failed (it's better now, but not yet perfect). Many of them went unimplemented because they weren't used by most apps ported to AROS. But they need to be implemented to handle old AmigaOS apps. Most, anyway.

Quote

  I don't think there is any intention to freeze things in  AROS at the old API, its just a minimum standard by which to judge  "improvements" by -- since there's so little chance that the original  Amiga OS, MorphOS or OS4 codes would be open sourced for a reference  point and compatibility layer in an open source Amiga-like OS.


You're already seeing new stuff, like the 3D support etc. being added beyond 3.1, as well as Zune etc. And to point out the console again since it's the part I'm involved in, my personal goal is at a minimum parity with KingCON, since "everyone" uses it - having just the features of AmigaOS 3.1 would still bring a user experience that leaves a lot to be desired for most Amiga users. Just committed the start of the menu bar the other night, now I just need to start hooking up the actions :) (actually, there's more "plumbing" to add first, which goes back to making console.device AmigaOS 1.x compatible...).

Where possible, AROS is also blocking out library offsets used for AmigaOS4 and MorphOS extensions in order to at least keeping the option of supporting them open.

Quote

I  agree that "defining community standards" isn't going to really help  anyone at this time.  OS4 and MorphOS have already chosen their paths,  and AROS has its own directions to go in.


Defining standards in this situation would pretty much be: Document the current shared behaviors and most important deviations. For example, what MUI controls and options are shared across all? What parts of AREXX works across all (now that Regina works on AROS)? What datatypes can be assumed to be available? Etc.

Creating a compatibility matrix like that would be a highly useful starting point if someone is looking for a project...

Another project that'd be highly useful, would be to start collecting automated unit tests targeting shared functionality, to find corner cases where they behave differently...
 

Offline saimon69

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Re: Would it not be better to work together?
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2011, 03:53:20 PM »
I fully quote Vidarh in this :)

Saimon69

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Would it not be better to work together?
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2011, 04:12:15 PM »
Quote from: dammy;620171
I'm not saying anything bad about 68K, it's a good medium that can be emulated and integrated into a next generation system.  My problem is what being called next generation because they are reimplementation of 68K and not next generation.
That's not wholly true; at least one project is a significant leap forward over the original 68k Amigas. Besides, what does "next generation" even mean in this context, and why? If something like NatAmi isn't a "next generation" Amiga project, what would it take to make it one?
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Offline Buzzfuzz

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Re: Would it not be better to work together?
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2011, 04:33:22 PM »
Quote from: Digiman;620039

If you wanted to play 60FPS 1920x1080 games and watch HD movies in 2006/7 would have cost 5x as much asa PS3......only a lunatic solution then. Sure 4 years on it's only 300-500 more but don't compare powerful machines technically with that NintenTOY for babies and single mums ;)

Good one :)
 
But Amiga hardware isn't getting cheaper also, sure the low end A500 and 600's are cheap.
1200's/2000's is already a bit harder.
A3000's/4000's are getting to the point of costing near to big powerful pc's.
And I haven't even started on PPC cards.
 
PS3's and Nintendo's are for the masses, just like PC's and Mac's, but everything else is a hobby.
And this can get a quite expensive hobby if you go a little bit further.
 
Sure, I'd like to see a better OS than OS 4.1, but I'm not going to spend a boat load of money for new hardware and an OS that can't do modern things like we do today.
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