NetSurf OS3.x Issues

[Acill]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Chris's work. He has made some steady progres

Hope to see more of it too, it was nearly functional.

[utri007]

Not really sure what to advise here, but Arti's port of Netsurf works fine for me. By far and away the best browser for 68k amigas.
Chris's version is thus far next to unusable, but hopefully one day usability will be up to that of Arti's version.

Chances are you'll hear a bunch of crap about "sdl framebuffer, non-gui, debug, etc." while enquiring about 68k Netsurf. Ignore it. It'll come from Chris, who obviously is going to promote his own version, and from other people who don't really understand what theyre talking about parroting him. Ask said people what those terms even mean, or how they influence (or not) things and they wont be able to answer you (sans Chris, who understands, but twists and contorts truths so as to promote his own version), but give it a little time and they'll be parroting again  :-)

All in all though it's not a very good browser anyway compared to pretty much everything out there, but if you want a no frills, basic browser that renders partway correctly it's ok. Don't expect to be able to do even simple stuff like uploading images though. A complete lack of javascript makes these things nigh on impossible. Even 68k OWB is more capable.

I have my doupts that Chris version woun't ever materialize to working version for 68k Amigas.

Arti's version is a hack, he has took a version of Netsurf wich hasn't meant to be used like that. He has made a huge job to make it work like it does now.  It will always require two diffrent version for AGA and RTG. AGA version on based to Novacoder's SDL AGA, wich himself is descripted as "quick dirty hack". SDL doesn't support 8 bit screens.

I really hope that Arti get his version to work useable state, but compared to work he has took it doesn't look good. He need to rewrite quite much code, to get it useable.

Another thing is how usefull it will be? For me it just to possibility to download files occasionaly, without need to use anther Computer. Netsurf works well with that. General web browsing woun't be possible ever with real 68k Amigas. Maybe FPGA accelerators will change that some day.

Current version of netsurf has a java script. Saying "Even OWB is more capable", is not fair. OWB is complete web browser. It woun't ever run useable state with real 68k Amigas, just to starting requies 4x ram compared to Netsurf (11mb).

[chris]

Have you created new version to test?

No.  I need help to get any further.

[chris]

Thanks for the version to test. Its VERY SLOW on my A4000T 060/PPC and looks like this when a page finally loads.

In Users/{your user, probably Default}/Choices try adding:
friend_bitmap:1

That might fix the colour issue (and maybe speed it up a bit).

These might help with memory/speed:
simple_refresh:1
dither_quality:0
screen_ydpi:72

I can't remember if I ever got use_diskfont:1 working properly, but if it works that will speed it up too.

It is built without compiler optimisations due to an issue with GCC I don't know how to fix, and there's a fair bit of non-optimal code (it uses outline fonts - which are horribly slow on 68k - and the image reduction works via DataTypes)

[wawrzon]

I have my doupts that Chris version woun't ever materialize to working version for 68k Amigas.

Arti's version is a hack, he has took a version of Netsurf wich hasn't meant to be used like that. He has made a huge job to make it work like it does now.  It will always require two diffrent version for AGA and RTG. AGA version on based to Novacoder's SDL AGA, wich himself is descripted as "quick dirty hack". SDL doesn't support 8 bit screens.

I really hope that Arti get his version to work useable state, but compared to work he has took it doesn't look good. He need to rewrite quite much code, to get it useable.

Another thing is how usefull it will be? For me it just to possibility to download files occasionaly, without need to use anther Computer. Netsurf works well with that. General web browsing woun't be possible ever with real 68k Amigas. Maybe FPGA accelerators will change that some day.

Current version of netsurf has a java script. Saying "Even OWB is more capable", is not fair. OWB is complete web browser. It woun't ever run useable state with real 68k Amigas, just to starting requires 4x ram compared to Netsurf (11mb).

while i dont agree with fishy about that chris is twisting truths, but rather simply accept his opinion as another point of view i partly agree but partly disagree with. the above post perfectly portrays what fishy is talking about, the mindless parroting.

it would be courious to hear in detail, what that awful "hacks" are, artur has introduced, illustrated with code quotations. what are the parts of code he has to "rewrite" and beyond all why chris version is not satisfactory as is if it is in so much better state, because last time i tried arturs version worked  that bad at least under uae.

now. what concerns progress, chris version doesnt seems to get there much faster than arturs one. in fact it seems to be on hold, while artur keeps delivering. would be good if those bragging so much about how bad chris version is and what needs to be done, would help either artur or chris, according to their insight.

what concerns me i might return to this subject as soon as my abilities improve, but being currently working on aros68k under deadwood guidance it may not be soon. on the other hand its possible that by then i can contribute better, so maybe its worth the wait.

also just in case, deadwood has proposed a bounty to port current odyssey to 68k, which has been given up due to no interest.

[utri007]

Hack = Add a feature to program wich original source doesn't have and woun't have.  SDL AGA is good example, Novacoder himself said it "quick dirty hack". There is no 8bit screen support in SDL and never will be.

Of course coder can take a opensource code and make a changes to it, make it "his own". But future updates are not that easy implement any more. I'm not a coder that true, but I work with coders and seen problems wich are made By making unsupported features to original opensource code.

[wawrzon]

Hack = Add a feature to program wich original source doesn't have and woun't have.  SDL AGA is good example, Novacoder himself said it "quick dirty hack". There is no 8bit screen support in SDL and never will be.

so adding features to the source results in this being "hack" by definition? sounds like software development is one big hack altogether.

and adding 8bit paletted support is an example for that? then netsurf is not going to have this anyway, no matter the used backend, just because it would be a hack. what are you expecting then? move on.

Of course coder can take a opensource code and make a changes to it, make it "his own". But future updates are not that easy implement any more. I'm not a coder that true, but I work with coders and seen problems wich are made By making unsupported features to original opensource code.

i admit, i dont know what are these hacks, arti and nova have introduced, it also depends on what one considers to be conform. imho i wouldnt want to manage the browser build with devcpp, this already makes it hard to be maintainable and the opportunity to push changes upstream becomes unlikely if not completely remote.

from this perspective it would be certainly better to have a target platform and developer within the original source tree and not an unsupported fork, as chris proposes. but as it is the fork is working and chris target is not. and there is none to help with it, including you. so go figure.

[utri007]

wawrzon: Just wondering, did you misread with purpose, wich would make you just one bully? Or didn't you just pay attention, I did say "don't have and WOUN'T HAVE". Programmer job can be to add features, but changes are evaluated and then added to orginal source.

Point was to point out that IF Chris get his version to useable state, implementing new version would ideally take about 30 min. Arthurs version cannot be build againts original source tree.

What happens if(when) Arti lost his interest to Netsurf? Who want to take over a custom Project? Without a help of original Project? Arthur has already invented his own version numbers to it?

and adding 8bit paletted support is an example for that? then netsurf is not going to have this anyway, no matter the used backend, just because it would be a hack. what are you expecting then? move on.

Was this sarcasm? What was point? Nova's 8bit support is adapted to SDL source tree? Or somebody has took over Project and is maintaing it?

What are hacks what Arti has made to his version Netsurf:

Resizeable screen
Menus
GUI (some sort of)

Chris needs a help from somebody who is experienced 68k coder. Addvertaising that might help him and in the end we could get useable web browser, wich has a future.

[itix]

Hack = Add a feature to program wich original source doesn't have and woun't have.  SDL AGA is good example, Novacoder himself said it "quick dirty hack". There is no 8bit screen support in SDL and never will be.

Eh, SDL supports 8-bit screens. Only problem is that many games want hi/true color screens.

Of course coder can take a opensource code and make a changes to it, make it "his own". But future updates are not that easy implement any more. I'm not a coder that true, but I work with coders and seen problems wich are made By making unsupported features to original opensource code.

It depends on what you do, where and how. Graphics stuff is isolated to its own Amiga native backend and if properly implemented it is easy to maintain (I havent seen SDL AGA code). At the moment there is no Amiga code in SDL source repository. It was removed some 10 years ago but Amiga backends are (were) maintained separately.

[utri007]

OK then I don't remember correctly why Novacoder calt his SDL AGA a dirty hack

Itix: Could you considering to help Chris? I do know that you don't have experience or interest with Reaction, but problem is elsewhere. Screen is not refreshed propely, etc.

Some years ago you said that you have considered to make 68k version of your netsurf MorphOS port.

[OlafS3]

OK then I don't remember correctly why Novacoder calt his SDL AGA a dirty hack

Itix: Could you considering to help Chris? I do know that you don't have experience or interest with Reaction, but problem is elsewhere. Screen is not refreshed propely, etc.

Some years ago you said that you have considered to make 68k version of your netsurf MorphOS port.

Chris version is using Reaction for GUI, Reaction is closed and not freely available so when you do not want to be dependent of 3.9 or 4.X it is a dead end. Arthurs version is perfectly running and not requiring a certain GUI. For my personal purpose it is perfect, reaction is a no-go.

[wawrzon]

OK then I don't remember correctly why Novacoder calt his SDL AGA a dirty hack

he may have said so, still he considered this hack to be worth to do, and the source is out in the open afair. on the contrary by your own definition, both odyssey and timberwolf are "hacks" because the code is not and cannot be included in the genuine repository upstream, and cannot be easily kept in sync with webkit or modzilla engines as you postulate.

Itix: Could you considering to help Chris? I do know that you don't have experience or interest with Reaction, but problem is elsewhere. Screen is not refreshed propely, etc.

Some years ago you said that you have considered to make 68k version of your netsurf MorphOS port.

itix helped me to get his old mui netsurf frontend to compile o certain extent (with zune) till i gave it up at least temporarily, since chris came up with his reaction port to amiga. maybe he can advise you if you start working on it yourself.

[Acill]

Why was reaction the choice? Because the OS4 version is using it? MUI seems like the best option now that both OS4, AOS and MOS all have a version on them.

[wawrzon]

Why was reaction the choice? Because the OS4 version is using it? MUI seems like the best option now that both OS4, AOS and MOS all have a version on them.

because chris frontend was done for os4 and os4 native gui kit is considered to be reaction. itix, according to himself, has once rewritten chris frontend early version to mui, which would be a more portable solution, but this rewrite is outdated and the engine interfaces apparently doesnt fit it anymore. thats what i was intending to attempt to have an universal frontend target for all amiga-like systems.

[utri007]

because chris frontend was done for os4 and os4 native gui kit is considered to be reaction. itix, according to himself, has once rewritten chris frontend early version to mui, which would be a more portable solution, but this rewrite is outdated and the engine interfaces apparently doesnt fit it anymore. thats what i was intending to attempt to have an universal frontend target for all amiga-like systems.

MUI would be more adorable than reaction, no doubt for that. MUI would be also more future proof solution, as it is availlable for free and it is availlable for all platforms and also a OS3.0/1. If there were a boynty for Netsurf it should have MUI gui.  I would hapily participate.

Problem is if we collect some thousands money, would it help to find coder or or not?

[wawrzon]

MUI would be more adorable than reaction, no doubt for that. MUI would be also more future proof solution, as it is availlable for free and it is availlable for all platforms and also a OS3.0/1. If there were a boynty for Netsurf it should have MUI gui.  I would hapily participate.

Problem is if we collect some thousands money, would it help to find coder or or not?

you could have participated in discussion on aros-exec about odyssey port to 68k in order to establish a bounty. i think some word has been spred. currently there is no agreement what to do and also mui, even if available for free in one or another form is not open, so its absolutely not as future proof as you imply. but there is zune.

once im ready with what im doing now ill discuss with deadwood the possibility to include odyssey in aros contribs and e it compile for 68k and maybe work on it some day. but not now. especially i have too limited experience yet.