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Amiga.org specific forums => Amiga.org Discussion and Site Feedback => Topic started by: Wayne on October 21, 2006, 05:04:09 PM

Title: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: Wayne on October 21, 2006, 05:04:09 PM
Hi guys,

After the recent rash of stupidity from a couple of now-gone posters (trolls), I wanted to write this post as a bit of explanation.

This site's stance on software piracy is as follows;

Quote
Do not post links or requests for warez.
Warez in our definition is illegal software up to and including "abandonware". The exception is if the person is KNOWN to have the legal right to distribute said software. This is not debatable.
Source : Posting Guidelines
 (http://www.amiga.org/index.php?pageid=posting_guidelines)
Quote
The following types of posts or comments are subject to automatic moderation or deletion without question:
{snip}
9. Any post or comment involving or advocating the distribution of warez in any way.
Source : Moderation Policy
 (http://www.amiga.org/index.php?pageid=moderation_policy)
There is a lot of well, just plain wrong thought out there as to why these rules and statements exist.  Without malice aforethought, whether or not you understand them or agree to them is pretty much irrelevant, since we ALL agreed to the terms of service for this site upon joining.

So...  Let's get this out in the open and on the record...

Officially speaking

Amiga.org cannot and will not tolerate any conversations advocating piracy of software in any way, shape, or form.  This is to include what you guys may consider abandonware.

Why?

Simply put, the discussion of piracy is THE most slippery slope out there, and if there's a proverbial inch given, some of you guys will try to take a mile.  

If we allow discussions advocating piracy, soon someone will get the idea that it's OK to send links to pirate sites via PM.  Soon afterwards, they would start posting them publicly.

Soon after that, someone would think it's ok to start uploading pirated files somewhere and linking them here

One of the authors would get upset and complain.  If not to us, then to the DCMA to get us shut down.  It DOES NOT MATTER WHERE WE ARE HOSTED.  IF THE DCMA DOES NOT GET ACTION, THEY GO TO ICANN (A US-based organization) TO KILL THE DOMAIN.

The posted rules regarding advocating piracy were written in some cases, 4 years ago.  They won't be changing any time soon.

The reason

Amiga Inc still exists.  This is not about any fear of them.  This is about the fact that they're still trying to do something for the classic platform.  Even if they pull a rabbit out of their arse with the hardware and OS, how can they possibly succeed in bringing software to the platform if even the core support sites are in support of telling everyone to "go ahead and pirate whatever you need"??  They can't.  End of story.

UNofficially speaking

With the demonstrated exception of a few, we're all adults here.  I am not your mother, nor am I some holier-than-thou Jiminy cricket conscience sitting on your shoulder.  I *know* that despite your desire to register shareware, sometimes it is impossible to do in light of an absent author.  

I'll never understand why the authors simply disappear when they could just sit there collecting free money, but I digress.  I suppose after all the lies and drama from Amiga Inc and other "companies" in this arena, said authors just want to move on with their lives.  If they take your money now, you would still expect them to be developing for a platform that -- in most cases -- they don't even own any more.

In short, with the classic Amiga platform, I do clearly understand why such piracy exists.  What you guys do on your own time, with your own computers is none of my business.

I just cannot condone the idea that Amiga.org would be a resource of such things, when there's still even a speck of hope for a future of the platform, even if it's PPC and moving in the wrong direction (IMHO).

If Amiga Inc or the platform truly dies (as in no development on the future desktop platform whatsoever), then we'll talk.

To that end, a compromise

I understand the importance of discussion, and the ideals of learning from our mistakes.  I just don't know how a discussion of piracy could be undertaken without two sides.  Those who are against it, and those in favor of it.  Those in favor of it obviously will tend to break the rules regarding ADVOCATING software piracy.  See the conundrum?

Re-reading the site's guidelines, I am mentally refreshed as to my original intent.  In my mind, a very clear and razor sharp line needs to be drawn between the "discussion" and the "advocacy" of piracy.

I -- as the site's owner and principle administrator -- will try to be a little more lenient towards honest discussion as long as it does not advocate stealing another's work.  If you advocate piracy, perhaps this is not the place for you.

What YOU as a user must understand

1 - Everything is still 100% at the discretion of the moderators and staff who will work in the best interests of the site, and the Amiga platform. Whether you agree with them cannot be helped.

2 - Also, if a thread starts which contains links, or blatently advocates stealing and piracy, YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND that it is RARELY possible to delete the offending post (especially if it's an early one in the thread) without affecting one or more of the following posts.  

Xoops (the software running this site) basically offers the option to "delete this post and it's child posts" or "cancel".  There is no "delete just this post" or "delete this post and all that quote from it" or any such ability.

If you are in a thread which advocates piracy, and your post  which may be innocent suddenly disappears, PLEASE don't get your proverbial knickers in a knot, it's probably just the way it is due to limitations in the software.

Later versions of Xoops fix this problem, but as you are well aware by our last attempt, later versions of Xoops are incompatible with most older (read:Amiga) browsers which precludes us from using it.

Please feel free to comment, but understand that there are still rules, and if you want to take part in the discussions here, everyone, including you and me must abide by them.

Wayne

{Edit 5/20/09 to reflect change from Xoops to vBulletin -- no other content changed}
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: redrumloa on October 21, 2006, 05:18:35 PM
Good post, I hope that clears up the confusion. I personally fully understand people wanting to use abandonware on their platform they feel is orphaned. I understand it may be impossible to get legal copies of some software. While in practice the platform may feel orphaned, in technical terms it is not. Amiga.org simply has to walk a fine line if it wants to continue to provide its services to the Amiga community.
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: bhmrichard on October 21, 2006, 05:25:32 PM
I'm pretty new here, but the discussion of "abandonware" and piracy is certainly not a new topic..  A couple of random thoughts.

Quote
One of the authors would get upset and complain. If not to us, then to the DCMA to get us shut down. It DOES NOT MATTER WHERE WE ARE HOSTED. IF THE DCMA DOES NOT GET ACTION, THEY GO TO ICANN (A US-based organization) TO KILL THE DOMAIN.


ICANN, under threat of possible u.s. court order to shut down the Spamhaus domain, has made it unilaterally known they that do not have authority to shut down a domain. Only the domain registrar can do that.

Quote
Do not post links or requests for warez.
Warez in our definition is illegal software up to and including "abandonware". The exception is if the person is KNOWN to have the legal right to distribute said software. This is not debatable.


Frankly, I love this rule here. I'm not an advocate of piracy. Having said that, I think there's one GREAT reason to be able to obtain software however.

1. You own a legal, licensed copy of the game/program/utility, and your disk is bad (after all these disks are YEARS old now).

I think this is the only reason I'd ever be interested in obtaining a program through non-traditional channels.

Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: on October 21, 2006, 05:31:06 PM
Quote
Only the domain registrar can do that.


True, and false.  

As an employee of an ICANN-Accredited registrar and someone who spends 1/3 of his time on this planet dealing with complaints forwarded to us by ICANN, I can unequivocably state that most registrars have terms of service in place which allow them to kill (at will) any domain name which receives a complaint about illegal activities (in this case piracy).

Will they?  Maybe, maybe not.  It's a case by case basis, but I have personally acted as the "sword of the Internet Gods" where domain names are concerned on a daily basis, hence my cautionary stance on the matter.

Better not to discuss it at all than not be able to discuss anything at all.

Wayne
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: redrumloa on October 21, 2006, 05:34:40 PM
Quote

bhmrichard wrote:
1. You own a legal, licensed copy of the game/program/utility, and your disk is bad (after all these disks are YEARS old now).

I think this is the only reason I'd ever be interested in obtaining a program through non-traditional channels.


Good point. What I have done personally in the past is have people mail me the faulty disk for verification and I would return it to them with a backup copy. I don't think genuine discussion about obtaining legit backups for owned software falls into the piracy category. As long as dicussion stays legal. Unfortunately in the past these legit discussions have been derailed by someone posting a link to pirate softwate.
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: TjLaZer on October 21, 2006, 07:03:11 PM
Thats why if you wish to do these kinds of things just go on over to EAB!  ;)
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: pedro7 on October 21, 2006, 07:36:36 PM
I'd like to ask something.
What is the site's position on pieces of software that were free for download but have now been removed from aminet due to concerns over the legality of the software. eg harddrive installers for commercial games and also clones of old arcade games. Is requesting and posting links to these prohibited?
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: TjLaZer on October 21, 2006, 07:44:59 PM
Not allowed!!  Goto English Amiga Board...
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: redrumloa on October 21, 2006, 08:42:04 PM
Quote

pedro7 wrote:
I'd like to ask something.
What is the site's position on pieces of software that were free for download but have now been removed from aminet due to concerns over the legality of the software. eg harddrive installers for commercial games and also clones of old arcade games. Is requesting and posting links to these prohibited?


Wayne can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any problem with HD installers.

@TjLaZer

Oh be nice  :-P
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: on October 21, 2006, 11:29:44 PM
@pedro7

You've answered your own question.  If Aminet "removed [them] due to concerns of legality", what makes you believe this would be an appropriate place for such items?

Wayne
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: odin on October 22, 2006, 12:53:01 AM
So.....er....asking for an ADF of Worms isn't allowed?  :angel:
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: iamaboringperson on October 22, 2006, 01:20:05 AM
AMEN to all of that!


For piracy discussion, there are other sites, anyway.

Let's keep this one clean.
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: redrumloa on October 22, 2006, 01:29:38 AM
Quote

odin wrote:
So.....er....asking for an ADF of Worms isn't allowed?  :angel:


Negative, Batman.
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: K7HTH on October 22, 2006, 02:05:51 AM
Wow, to think that there is a taboo discussion here that can wreck havoc on this site is akin to the taboo discussion of Cuban cigars on U.S.-based cigar advocate sites. I suppose there are tabo subjects for all genres that would threaten the life of the respective sponsoring website.
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: redrumloa on October 22, 2006, 02:14:24 AM
@K7HTH

You live in Huntsville?
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: tomazkid on October 22, 2006, 03:45:12 AM
Very good post Wayne  :-)

Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: K7HTH on October 22, 2006, 04:47:03 AM
Quote

redrumloa wrote:
@K7HTH

You live in Huntsville?


Why yes I do, neighbor!
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: Minuous on October 22, 2006, 04:53:19 AM
I'd be interested to hear how HD-installers are legally dubious, I'm highly doubtful that that is the case but maybe someone can point me to the relevant law? And in which country?

It it was actually true then surely we wouldn't be allowed to mention WHDLoad either, is that program considered "evil" around here!?
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: redrumloa on October 22, 2006, 05:09:41 AM
Quote

K7HTH wrote:
Why yes I do, neighbor!


Sweet! Are you an active user of any retro platforms?
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: Argo on October 22, 2006, 05:43:35 AM
Well, he is posting on an Amiga site...  :-D
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: redrumloa on October 22, 2006, 06:42:20 AM
Quote

Argo wrote:
Well, he is posting on an Amiga site...  :-D


Well that doesn't mean he is an active user. I have tons of C= 8bit, but I cast off my Amiga stuff a year of so ago.

I'd bet a good part of the users here aren't active:-(
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: K7HTH on October 22, 2006, 06:56:23 AM
Quote
redrumloa wrote:Well that doesn't mean he is an active user. I have tons of C= 8bit, but I cast off my Amiga stuff a year of so ago.
I'd bet a good part of the users here aren't active:-(


Hey Bro, not really gaming on much retro these days. Too many hobbies to support already. Thanks for the offer though!
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: AmiKit on October 22, 2006, 09:31:43 AM
Quote

Minuous wrote:
I'd be interested to hear how HD-installers are legally dubious, I'm highly doubtful that that is the case but maybe someone can point me to the relevant law? And in which country?

It it was actually true then surely we wouldn't be allowed to mention WHDLoad either, is that program considered "evil" around here!?

 :-o look who's talking! Minuous (aka James Jacobs), from when  are you interested in laws? I remember you hosted pirated AmigaOS3.9, ROMs and various keyfiles on your site just few months ago! Needless to say you endangered Amiga.org if your site, at that time, was listed here in the links section.
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: motorollin on October 22, 2006, 10:20:44 AM
Nicely put Wayne. So well put, in fact, that I've decided to open my own piracy can of worms. Dig in - they're free!

(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm244/motorollin/aorg/worms.jpg)

--
moto
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: lopos on October 22, 2006, 12:02:43 PM
Quote

glwxxx wrote:
 :-o look who's talking! Minuous (aka James Jacobs), from when  are you interested in laws? I remember you hosted pirated AmigaOS3.9, ROMs and various keyfiles on your site just few months ago! Needless to say you endangered Amiga.org if your site, at that time, was listed here in the links section.


Here we go again. :madashell: Haven't you caused enough bad blood between Amiga users. It's time to grow up and stop attacking.  
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: Argo on October 22, 2006, 12:22:36 PM
@Red


 I know, just thought it was funny.
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: AmiKit on October 22, 2006, 12:23:05 PM
Quote

lopos wrote:
Here we go again. :madashell: Haven't you caused enough bad blood between Amiga users. It's time to grow up and stop attacking.

You know, it really sounds good when YOU say something like that

Edited by Argo: Link to site removed - Piracy , DID you not get the Memo!

EDIT: you see Lopos? Even the link to your thread on EAB where you're informing about your "great" site has been removed - in a few seconds!
(Sorry Argo)
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: pixie on October 22, 2006, 12:29:53 PM
There's a site where you can get them and which is allowed to distribute worms
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: lopos on October 22, 2006, 12:31:51 PM
@glwxxxx
Oh! You wanna start on me now.
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: on October 22, 2006, 03:05:01 PM
stay on target, er, I mean topic please.
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: Minuous on October 22, 2006, 03:24:48 PM
Your point being?
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: Tomas on October 22, 2006, 03:26:00 PM
Quote
If we allow discussions advocating piracy, soon someone will get the idea that it's OK to send links to pirate sites via PM. Soon afterwards, they would start posting them publicly.

You could make it clear that the line is drawn there. Which means that you could ban anyone who purposely post a link to a warez site. I honestly do not think that there would be more warez links, just because people express their opinion regarding the issue. Just make it clear that whenever the line is passed, the user will be banned.

I do not understand why we should ban peacefull discussions at all.. But it is you who are the one who makes the rules, so i guess must abide them if i want to post here.
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: redrumloa on October 22, 2006, 03:45:55 PM
Quote

Argo wrote:
@Red
 I know, just thought it was funny.


Sorry Argo, I'm thick sometimes :oops:
Title: Re: Opening the piracy can of worms.
Post by: Kathyone on May 11, 2007, 08:57:33 AM
What if we could just be honest and ask the authors to make the software donation ware or shareware.  Then we could support them and still keep the legal end ok.  We need to support software or good people won't write it.  We could ask them to donate some software if they really want to get out of the platform or open source it.  That way others could benefit from their hard work.  The retro games would be nice running on new hardware if it comes.  Or on old hardware. too.