1080 vs 1084

[save2600]

1080 is superior IMHO. Darker tube = better contrast. Blacker blacks, whiter whites kind of thing. Tube had a matte finish also, 1084 is glossy and comes with all the glare a glossy screen is known for. 1080 was built better too, as far as I can tell. I've seen way more blown up 1084's comparatively. Iffin' I'm not mistaken:

1080 - mono and made by Goldstar (later made tubes for Zenith)
1084 & 1084s - the 's' is for Stereo and made by Philips of Philips/Magnavox fame
1084SD1 - stereo, last of the reg. Commodore RGB line and made by Samsung

Oh - but the one thing that SUCKS about the 1080: it's either PAL or NTSC. Cannot switch to either, unlike the 1084+'s  :-(   Many, many, many Philips tubes were shipped misaligned. Their RGB guns as it were. Not a seriously huge problem if you know how to calibrate, but still. I'd also say that the image might have appeared sharper on the 1084, almost as if the dot-pitch spec was higher, but not until you properly aligned her. I'll always have a penchant for the original 1080 though  :-)

[save2600]

Oh yeah, it requires you to remove the back all right. Not a bad idea to use a large mirror as you're adjusting also. There are several convergence adjustments that need to be made on the yoke of a picture tube. They're ALL glued as to not be shaken loose, but as quality control has progressively blown chunks throughout the years (can you say unfair_trade_practice or 'sweatshop'?), I do not recommend just anyone try this though. Major shock risk if you've never attempted before and/or are a clumsy oaf. Here's some great info in layman's terms what we're talking about:

Linky to monitor FAQ's

[save2600]

Looks like the BBOAH has some more info. Quite surprised to see a few other manufactures made tubes (Hitachi, Toshiba, etc.) as I've only seen Philip's & Samsung's. Perhaps the others were produced for Europa, etc. Never heard of the SD-2.

Linky to BBOAH

[save2600]

Ahhh... makes sense. The SD1 is more cream or egg-shell white to match early Commodore A1200's and late A500's. I had an A500 when I bought my first 1084SD1. Loved the styling and feel of it compared to a Philips 1084s that was replaced (which as you say, was boxy and kinda cheap feeling). Boy... this conversation is really bringing back the Commodore-era memories! $300-$400 (actually, most of the time it was around $329) was A LOT of money for a frickin' RGB monitor back in the day. Even then, I knew Amiga stuff was kinda expensive comparatively. VGA and the soon to follow SVGA monitors were already out. The fact we had to purchase a (expletive) 3rd party, warranty voiding FF/SD back then and ONLY for use with Workbench compatible software put a REAL damper on Amiga purchases for me. And then there was this filter you taped over the God forsaken 15khz monitor that "reduced" the flickering. LOL!  You had to crank the brightness and contrast waaaaay up though to compensate. No wonder many of these Philips made 1084's were crap-ola before too long!

Still, we made do with what we could afford and by gum... wouldn't think of trading the experience in for anything  :-)  

[save2600]

@TjLaZer:

I remember the good old 'Advertiser' days! Would scour those every Wednesday and Sunday, looking for Amiga goodies. But alas, was always forced to buy new as everyone in my community had the gee-whiz enough to not sell their wares! lol   We had a few Amiga shops semi-near us where I bought my first A1000 from, but they were priced at strict MSRP's on their new stuff. Soon after I discovered I could not afford to upgrade my A1000 (it really did not make monetary sense to upgrade those machines back then), ended up getting an A500 & 1084 from Montgomery Grant. Amiga in 1988... packaged in those sleek lines of  patriotic red, white and blue. Delivered straight to the door. Ahhh....   :pint:

[save2600]

It means if you have a 1080 monitor designed around a 50hz supply, and you're in Aussieland viewing NTSC images, the total image is never going to fill the entire screen.

Just as in the U.S. when viewing PAL images on our 60hz NTSC system. This is why we all want Fat 1MB Agnus's in our A1000's and a nice, crisp 1084 (or an OCS/ECS Indivision) so we can have the best of both worlds  :-)  

[save2600]

You don't notice 1/4 of the screen missing? Chopped off?

[save2600]

It's not that simple. The V-height in every single 1080 I have ever owned and spent time with (at least a dozen), has never allowed for proper PAL viewing. I currently own three and NONE of them allow me to view PAL images in their entirety.

Yes, you can stretch the V-height, and move it slightly upwards with the other pot, but there is still severe cropping. You're simply moving the image up from the bottom, what do you think happens to the image at the top?

Perhaps most people are accustomed to viewing this way? (cropped) or are used to using their native broadcast system - I dunno.

[save2600]

Sorry, I'm talking about the application of commercial games of course :-)  - which are very strict in their graphics modes. Not Workbench editable screenmodes w/ overscan prefs, etc. Also not talking about opening up the monitor and playing around with the V-width pot or an H-width pot that doesn't exist. If memory serves, the latter is in the form of a resistor (strange it's not a coil), that could be substituted with a variable resistor (pot). Hmm....

In any event: V-height adjustment on a 1080 is in the rear and requires a very small and precise screwdriver that only allows for so much tolerance. Vertical Hold is the adjustment I was talking about that allows you to (barely) move the image upwards in order to display *most* of the PAL image (and in doing so, you crop off some of the top obviously). But... going back to NTSC, given you've adjusted your 1080 for PAL modes, is a PITA to get back to normal. 1080 sucks as a multi-system monitor plain and simple.

[save2600]

@mr_a500:

I'm confused... so you're admitting multi-region viewing in its entirety is not possible without major fiddling (because that has been my experience)? If not, I think it is *you* that have the special 1080's in your country!  :-D

I *will* drag a couple of 1080's upstairs tomorrow and give them a whirl on my A2500 with its fattest Aggie and easily switchable PAL/NTSC modes for fooks sake. But it really sounds like you have tweaked your particular monitor(s) to look 'acceptable' in either mode and that you are just not familiar enough with the difference between the two.  

As evidenced by their design, Commodore released these early computers and peripherals to be region specific. It was not until a generation or two later that we had Agnus and multi-system capable monitors at our disposal.

[save2600]

Precisely, even though those necessary PAL/NTSC squishing/expanding adjustments are in the rear. Keep in mind though, all of this doesn't mean a hoot if you've got an A1000 or a 512kb Chip Ram Agnus in your A500/A2000. You still ain't gonna get PAL to display properly, no matter how many dials you turn  :-(  

But yeah, nice that they put the Horizontal Phase adjustment in the front of the 1084SD1. The more adjustments the better I always say!   lol

[save2600]

@mr_A500:

Didn't mean to imply you were blind! :lol:

Getting dead tired here, but God knows there's always room for error here, but AFAIK in the U.S., even the earliest 1084's (plural, not 's') handled PAL as appropriately as the exterior controls would allow. By that I mean, yes... we've always had to adjust the vertical height and positioning in the back (1084+), but it would fill the entire screen at least and you could see everything you were supposed to. When you wanted to revert to NTSC, it was a simple matter of doing the reverse.

The original point being (and maybe I should have phrased it a little differently) is that in my experience, the 1080's released to the U.S. will *always* crop a PAL image and that no amount of adjusting (posterior or internally) will change that fact. The chassis is simply not designed without modification to:

a) squish the image (no vertical length adjustment).
b) raise the screen up in order to view it in its entirety (vertical height is severely limited).

...gosh, did the 1942/1950/1960 even have these capabilities? It's been so long now, I'd have to look them up. Almost too tired to wait for my Mac to shut down. Sometimes it hangs if I have an SD card in it.  lol  Wish I was posting on my Amiga so I could just turn the tootin' thing off!  Goodnight!

[save2600]

Dumb question, but did you try adjusting the vertical hold adjustment in the front? The image will sit up a little higher than an NTSC image, but it'll still be plenty viewable.

If the v.hold doesn't do the trick, your model may or may not have a tiny/chinsey (easily breakable) v.sync pot inside the case, which takes an alan wrench to adjust the lead based coil. If not, it's a regular trim pot that takes a very small slotted screwdriver. Either way, should straighten it out if the v.hold fails you.

@AmigaPixel:

The later 1084's were made in Korea, Malaysia and maybe even Mexico.

@mr_A500:

I opened up my beloved 1080 this morning and performed a couple of internal adjustments. I am now able to view both PAL & NTSC within a tolerance that's pretty darn close to each other (although not perfect). Still have to adjust the v.hold between switches, but the cropping is NOT as severe as before. Thanks for the info and giving me an excuse to get yet another Amiga project done!