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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Topic started by: SysAdmin on August 28, 2011, 10:02:20 AM
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News from TrevorDick of A-Eon
Chris Follett, AmigaKit's lead technician, has produced a quick video of the AmigaOne X1000 booting to AmigaOS4.1 Update 3. Chris apologized for the quality, but he only had time to run off a quick video in between setting up and testing Nemo 2.1 motherboards. He has promised to produce another video showing AmigaOS4 running various demos when he has more time.
AmigaOS4.1 Update 3 booting on AmigaOne X1000 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&v=c1a_8SUTi6k)
Trevor Dickinson
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Nice effort and despite I'm not interested, it's a nice step for NG lovers :) /thumbsup
Congratz to FOL for the vid and I hope for more videos soon.
P.S. 1min boot (excluding OS selection) is a bit weird though
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Not exactly fast at booting, is warm boot quicker?
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Not exactly fast at booting, is warm boot quicker?
42 seconds not quick enough for you? Damn quick compared to my AMD 4800X2 with Vista.
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42 seconds not quick enough for you?
Nope, that's really really slow. I can only assume it's due to debug, missing driver support or something of that sort.
But as they say, "you can only make the first impression once".
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Nope, that's really really slow. I can only assume it's due to debug, missing driver support or something or that sort.
But as they say, "you can only make the first impression once".
LMAO, that's a fair comment. Maybe it is due to debugging, I'm sure time will tell, serial debugging is enabled on the video.
It's a shame more people don't shout at Microsoft about boot times.
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42 seconds? Looks more like more than a minute. I don't have any amigoid systems booting that slow, no. What is Vista?
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Vista? If you've never heard of it you shouldn't ask, it will only taint your soul and in the end the knowledge of it will drag you screaming into hell. Trust me, pretend you never saw it.
I'll wait and see what the boot times are like without the debugging going on before I get dismayed. SAM boots fast, no reason that X1000 shouldn't as far as I know. Maybe Trevor will post another video soon, or at least post on this forum to let us know what sort of boot times to expect without the debug. That would be awfully nice of him......Trevor... are you reading this?
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I would guess that the video was posted purely to satisfy the curiosity of those waiting for any news at all the hardware. I don't think anybody is under any illusion that what is shown exactly represents the real potential of the system.
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Wow, that was underwhelming, almost painful to watch. The top of the line, brand spanking new, uber expensive A1X1K trundling along like an underspecd PC fresh off the discount rack from a department store somewhere.
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42 seconds even if not the final result is nothing compared to my 2ghz Intel Mac Mini which was recently upgraded to Mac OS X Lion (something which I regret atm, so slow and buggy - bad Apple). I went from around 1 minute under Snow Leopard to over 2 minutes with Lion.
Considering 4.1 u2 takes 20-30 to boot cold on a SAM 460 its fine to assume the new Amiga running u3 will pretty much take the same amount of time.
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My Win 7 box boots faster than this (and that can hardly be confused with a lean Amigoid system) but I suspect the poor speed is because of an unfinished state of the X1000/OS4.1.3 combo and that things will improve. As a reference, booting MorphOS on a Mac Mini is very close to instant after the firmware setup is finished; you see the blue butterfly splash screen for a second or so (you have hardly time to see what it is), and then it's done! :)
I suppose this is what they are about to ship to the paying "beta testers", but this X1000/OS4.1.3 combo doesn't quite seem to have reached beta stage yet, there seems to be some important development left still...?
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Wow, that was underwhelming, almost painful to watch. The top of the line, brand spanking new, uber expensive A1X1K trundling along like an underspecd PC fresh off the discount rack from a department store somewhere.
that translated for us , it would be?
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The X1000s are all beta-test machines. That means they will be running the debug kernel, with serial debugging, and hence not representative in any way of the final version. Judging anything from a beta-test quick video is unfair.
Comparing the boot-time of this machine to a released PC is misguided at best.....
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I don't know about y'all, but if I just spent a few hundred thousand dollars and 2 years of time building "the dream machine", I wouldn't have videos of the thing running like crap floating around. If they don't have a release build that can up and boot quickly by now, they're in worse shape than I thought.
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I don't know about y'all, but if I just spent a few hundred thousand dollars and 2 years of time building "the dream machine", I wouldn't have videos of the thing running like crap floating around.
Indeed. This is very puzzling considering all the earlier coordinated PR campaigning ("what is X" and all that).
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The X1000s are all beta-test machines. That means they will be running the debug kernel, with serial debugging, and hence not representative in any way of the final version. Judging anything from a beta-test quick video is unfair.
Comparing the boot-time of this machine to a released PC is misguided at best.....
But serial debug doesn't explain everything. When I used my Peg1 with serial debug enabled it didn't bot that slow. Seems there is pretty much deboug output...
Also I am pretty confused that the firmware shows a *500* MHz processor? What's that? Timing issues on the board?
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I don't know about y'all, but if I just spent a few hundred thousand dollars and 2 years of time building "the dream machine", I wouldn't have videos of the thing running like crap floating around. If they don't have a release build that can up and boot quickly by now, they're in worse shape than I thought.
eh?!?
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i think it depends of amount of debug switched on. do not have much idea of it except debugging aros68k via serial on amigas, but i suppose it is safe to assume it has an influence. debugging might explain the 500mhz setting too.
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Nope, that's really really slow. I can only assume it's due to debug, missing driver support or something of that sort.
But as they say, "you can only make the first impression once".
If in it's current state it booted in 2 seconds, you and your cronies would surely be complaining about something else.
Yeah you can only make the first impression once, and of you it has always been of sour grapes.
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I would guess that the video was posted purely to satisfy the curiosity of those waiting for any news at all the hardware. I don't think anybody is under any illusion that what is shown exactly represents the real potential of the system.
+ 1.....it's in BETA people !
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Company posts update.....people moan about it....company says "screw this, let's go somewhere where we will be appreciated"... ...people moan about lack of companies doing anything with the Amiga....hmmm.....
So just for the record:
Thanks Trevor, nice to see some work being done. Keep it up, some of us appreciate your effort and continued support for the Amiga platform.
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42 seconds not quick enough for you? Damn quick compared to my AMD 4800X2 with Vista.
Damn slow compared to Workbench 3.1! Or my XP laptop, or my Debian Power Mac... (Though as people are saying, it might just be a work-in-progress problem.)
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so when is update 3 gonna be released?
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Damn slow compared to Workbench 3.1! Or my XP laptop, or my Debian Power Mac... (Though as people are saying, it might just be a work-in-progress problem.)
"it might be..."??? Noooo go buy it! Man that was just stupid. Sad to see the same bitter people saying the same things like little jealous children. If they don't show it exists it's vapor and will never happen. If they show it early with beta software and clearly with debug running it's slow. "you only get one chanse of a first impression"? What morron thinks that the final product will be like this. It's so stupid it's hilarious :-D
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"you only get one chanse of a first impression"? What morron thinks that the final product will be like this. It's so stupid it's hilarious :-D
Indeed it is, and the person who introduced that nonsense was certain "Ben Hermans". Ever heard of him?
http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1052492275&category=news&number=26
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He's a Belgian professional cyclist who rides for UCI ProTour team "Team RadioShack".
.....wrong one?
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"it might be..."??? Noooo go buy it! Man that was just stupid. Sad to see the same bitter people saying the same things like little jealous children. If they don't show it exists it's vapor and will never happen. If they show it early with beta software and clearly with debug running it's slow. "you only get one chanse of a first impression"? What morron thinks that the final product will be like this. It's so stupid it's hilarious :-D
Haha what. I never said it was vapor. And I said it's slow as demonstrated because it is, in fact, slow as demonstrated. Probably it will improve, but that doesn't change the facts as they stand at the moment: it's slow. Not quite dog-slow like some OSes, but still, slow.
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Not exactly fast at booting, is warm boot quicker?
It looks like booting BIOS takes 20 secs and then loading boot image another 20 secs. Then couple of seconds waiting to get into some boot menu. I dont know if that boot menu is some specific SW module.
0:19 BIOS setup finished
0:26 Starts loading boot image
1:04 System enters boot menu
1:17 Booting from boot menu (?)
2:03 Workbench
Couple of seconds is spent on waiting user input. It is slow considering typical boot time would be 30 seconds in total.
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"it might be..."??? Noooo go buy it! Man that was just stupid. Sad to see the same bitter people saying the same things like little jealous children. If they don't show it exists it's vapor and will never happen. If they show it early with beta software and clearly with debug running it's slow. "you only get one chanse of a first impression"? What morron thinks that the final product will be like this. It's so stupid it's hilarious :-D
Wording like "stupid" and "moron" is pretty funny coming from somebody who only boots their computer to spend hours fiddling with the color settings in the BIOS configuration:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=34091&forum=14&start=200&viewmode=flat&order=0#626134
Yes I hope so too because I tend to stare at the uboot screen for several hours so now I change the colours every time I turn my A1 on. I wish I had that feature for BIOS on my PC or my PowerMac. I actually stare for so long that I rarely ever boot to see the OS.
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But serial debug doesn't explain everything. When I used my Peg1 with serial debug enabled it didn't bot that slow.
Perhaps booting from a CD-ROM? Or no functioning DMA?
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While I was looking forward to the X1000 being released and buying one, I don't think I'll be bothering anymore... :(
Last thing I want to do with an Amiga is run OS 4.x on it... :(
Thing I'll pin my hopes on the NatAmi instead, seem a much more suitable system for me... :)
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+ 1.....it's in BETA people !
I don't think it looks like it is in a phase where testers would try to find the last bugs before the final release? It looks more like there still might be some actual development to do, not just beta testing? Can "serial debug" really be the whole answer to why it's *this* slow, or could it be that some drivers are simply not fully developed yet?
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Truth:
HW development started 2 years ago (or whenever they started babbling that "MAP" nonsense).
SW development started over 1 year ago (as prooven by showing it last summer).
It is slow, even with all things like heavy debug, PIO-mode or seriously underclocked CPU (why ?) considered.
Compare what is shown today with what was shown last year and then tell me what conclusion can be pulled from that evidence.
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Well folks, you can spin it however you want but it does at least show progress is being made. Not long ago, the hardware was consigned to the vapourware cupboard after the (inevitable*) delays. Then when a few boards were spotted and it was said that it ran linux OS4.x for the board was dismissed as vapourware by many of the same people.
*I've never seen an Amiga-related project released on time since the C= days.
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Well folks, you can spin it however you want but it does at least show progress is being made. Not long ago, the hardware was consigned to the vapourware cupboard after the (inevitable*) delays. Then when a few boards were spotted and it was said that it ran linux OS4.x for the board was dismissed as vapourware by many of the same people.
Hmm... wasnt it booting to full Workbench in that VCF event?
Anyway I noticed that booting BIOS was very slow. It took almost 20 seconds there. I dont know if it was cold booting and waiting for hard disks to spin up but that too was very slow otherwise.
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Slow booting better be due to verbose/debug mode.
My SAM 440ep with a SSD boots fully to WB screen within 4-5 seconds under OS 4.1u2.
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LOL, Amiga people talking about vaporware, like it's some kind of stinging, insightful remark.
I think looking at the video, booting today and so on, that the true production would be in another 1.5 years away. They must move this whole thing along faster. I would say they need more people on their team. I'd also say they don't have the money to hire more, qualified persons.
Lastly, they don't seem to make any emphasis on the interesting part; the hardware. They need to push that to the front, not booting OS4... You can do that on an A1200. Where is the focus, the vision?
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Indeed it is, and the person who introduced that nonsense was certain "Ben Hermans". Ever heard of him?
http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1052492275&category=news&number=26
Yeah I've heard of him. I've also heard about a big baby called Piru, you know him?
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Hmm... wasnt it booting to full Workbench in that VCF event?
I only saw videos of it running, not booting. I can imagine that booting spits out a lot more debug than once you're into normal operation.
Also, I don't recall clearly, but wasn't that a different (earlier) board revision at VCF?
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Haha what. I never said it was vapor. And I said it's slow as demonstrated because it is, in fact, slow as demonstrated. Probably it will improve, but that doesn't change the facts as they stand at the moment: it's slow. Not quite dog-slow like some OSes, but still, slow.
I aimed at the might be comment and included comments from other people and put my thoughts out on them too.
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Wording like "stupid" and "moron" is pretty funny coming from somebody who only boots their computer to spend hours fiddling with the color settings in the BIOS configuration:
erm .... hey Mr Smart .. he was joking "toward" realize!
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Wording like "stupid" and "moron" is pretty funny coming from somebody who only boots their computer to spend hours fiddling with the color settings in the BIOS configuration:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=34091&forum=14&start=200&viewmode=flat&order=0#626134
Do I really need to type a fitting word for you now or can you figure out what I think of that comment all by yourself? I can give you a hint: Actually there are several fitting words and none of them are positive. But hey, you didn't understand why I wrote what you quote so you probably won't figure this out either ;-)
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Truth:
HW development started 2 years ago (or whenever they started babbling that "MAP" nonsense).
SW development started over 1 year ago (as prooven by showing it last summer).
It is slow, even with all things like heavy debug, PIO-mode or seriously underclocked CPU (why ?) considered.
Compare what is shown today with what was shown last year and then tell me what conclusion can be pulled from that evidence.
You mean like "what HW were they running back then, since OS4 runs like this on the X1000 today?"
Or perhaps it's reverse engineering, and I mean *literary* reverse engineering; like starting with a developed, fast product, and then "develop it in reverse" to become an undeveloped, slow product? :lol: :p ;)
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Do I really need to type a fitting word for you now or can you figure out what I think of that comment all by yourself? I can give you a hint: Actually there are several fitting words and none of them are positive. But hey, you didn't understand why I wrote what you quote so you probably won't figure this out either ;-)
you score 1:0 here, sir, not joking.
Today 08:14 PM
@ takemehomegrandma
i think he means, that the current stage of whats presented to the public i this video was already public last year, that means os4.x booting and slowly working on x1k hardware. no noticeable progress here. for me it is just inline with other amiga related ng projects such as natami or fpga arcade. not enough steady updates here, even though x1k still promisses best bang per buck, though with probably steeper investment ist the most risky alternative.
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for me it is just inline with other amiga related ng projects such as natami or fpga arcade. not enough steady updates here, even though x1k still promisses best bang per buck, though with probably steeper investment ist the most risky alternative.
Wouldn't call neither the natami nor the fpga arcade "Amiga NG related", but rather an extension of the classic line where you use the "real" Amiga OS 3.x (with various additions to support new HW features of the natami). The AROS, MorphOS and OS4 projects clearly differs from this, different ambitions altogether.
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You mean like "what HW were they running back then, since OS4 runs like this on the X1000 today?"
Or perhaps it's reverse engineering, and I mean *literary* reverse engineering; like starting with a developed, fast product, and then "develop it in reverse" to become an undeveloped, slow product? :lol: :p ;)
@Piru @Koaftder @Zylesea @Jorkany @takemehomegrandma @Kronos
Well it comes as no suprise that all the usual suspects from the anti Hyperian camp are here in force to wreck yet another AmigaOS 4 releated thread. You guys are a very small minority, that personify all that is nasty, rotten and ugly in this community.
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Wouldn't call neither the natami nor the fpga arcade "Amiga NG related", but rather an extension of the classic line where you use the "real" Amiga OS 3.x (with various additions to support new HW features of the natami). The AROS, MorphOS and OS4 projects clearly differs from this, different ambitions altogether.
I'd agree with that wholeheartedly... :)
The NatAmi and fpga are really just alternatives for those of us who enjoy "Classic" Amiga's and are in no way remotely anything to do with the stuff folk call "NG"... :)
Put it this way if the NatAmi was going to be "NG" ie: OS 4.x or MorphOS based then I would have no interest in it at all, as the things people call "NG" just aren't true Amiga's to me in any sense of the word... :)
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@Piru @Koaftder @Zylesea @Jorkany @takemehomegrandma @Kronos
Well it comes as no suprise that all the usual suspects from the anti Hyperian camp are here in force to wreck yet another AmigaOS 4 releated thread. You guys are a very small minority, that personify all that is nasty, rotten and ugly in this community.
+1
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Well it comes as no suprise that all the usual suspects from the anti Hyperian camp are here in force to wreck yet another AmigaOS 4 releated thread. You guys are a very small minority, that personify all that is nasty, rotten and ugly in this community.
It comes as no surprise that any thread in which people are in any way critical of Hyperion or OS4 in the smallest degree brings a bunch of wailing about meany mean bullies from the True Faithful...I'm just a little surprised it isn't only HotRod making a fool of himself.
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It comes as no surprise that any thread in which people are in any way critical of Hyperion or OS4 in the smallest degree brings a bunch of wailing about meany mean bullies from the True Faithful...I'm just a little surprised it isn't only HotRod making a fool of himself.
And you really don't think that people such as yourself isn't making a fool out of yourself? What do you really think that people think of these silly negative comments? I know the answer and so does everyone who doesn't belong to that small group. I'm no bigger fool than you are, that's for sure.
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@Piru @Koaftder @Zylesea @Jorkany @takemehomegrandma @Kronos
Well it comes as no suprise that all the usual suspects from the anti Hyperian camp are here in force to wreck yet another AmigaOS 4 releated thread. You guys are a very small minority, that personify all that is nasty, rotten and ugly in this community.
Oh please! Save it for your fellow Hyperion worshippers. You don't have to be in some minority to watch that video and see that the X1000, after two+ years of development, simply isn't living up to the "What is X?" hype from early 2010.
Everyone can see that it's slow, it's underwhelming, it's going to be overpriced, and it wouldn't be much a surprise if it never gets out of beta. It isn't anything that Amiga should be about, and it's not the fault of me or anyone who you named above. if you want somebody to blame for your crappy OS4 experience blame Hyperion and Co.
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I recall we all went through this same discussion with a similar video with the A1 XE, I think that was the model. In that case it was unoptimized video driver and debugging on, which you only see out the serial port.
Likely the same here. This is likely use to show progress also. Isn't it suppose to ship with 4.2 anyway?
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Oh please! Save it for your fellow Hyperion worshippers. You don't have to be in some minority to watch that video and see that the X1000, after two+ years of development, simply isn't living up to the "What is X?" hype from early 2010.
Everyone can see that it's slow, it's underwhelming, it's going to be overpriced, and it wouldn't be much a surprise if it never gets out of beta. It isn't anything that Amiga should be about, and it's not the fault of me or anyone who you named above. if you want somebody to blame for your crappy OS4 experience blame Hyperion and Co.
I can run debug mode and show a video from my A1, and you can go "Oh nooo, it sucks, it's sloow!". Then I can turn it off and show it again and you can go "Oh it boots fast! It doesn't look too bad!", then I can turn it on and you can go "Holy crap, that's awfull, what a overpriced piece of junk", then I can turn it off again and you can go........
See where I'm going with this?
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Jorkany, it's obviously a WIP video. Anyone who has ever seen a PPC machine boot OS4 knows that it looks nothing like that test code munge in the video. While I agree with you in the fact the X1000 is overpriced and limited in market appeal, I don't think based on Hyperion's past showings they would release the OS in a form that takes 2 minutes worth of debugging to boot up. I know they won't, in fact - my SAM has none of those issues, a simple bootloader msg along with detected drives info then right into Workbench in seconds flat.
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See where I'm going with this?
That the A1 has a crappy serial output?
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Jorkany, it's obviously a WIP video. Anyone who has ever seen a PPC machine boot OS4 knows that it looks nothing like that test code munge in the video....
don't bother...just the usual suspects doing their best to spread FUD. If it booted in 15 seconds then they'd have the same FUD to spread.
Yup they just love to troll on AmigaOS4.x related threads over & over & over again on this site:confused:
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That the A1 has a crappy serial output?
Like talking to a 3 year old that has never used a computer. Shouldn't you be on some site for knitting or something? It's probably more suited to your personality and knowledge.
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Wouldn't call neither the natami nor the fpga arcade "Amiga NG related", altogether.
for simplicity. perhaps i should rather talk about hardware projects in amiga segment.
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Nice life they're living
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Shouldn't you be on some site for knitting or something?
You have issues with knitting? Besides, this site is for knitting or something.
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Oh please! Save it for your fellow Hyperion worshippers. You don't have to be in some minority to watch that video and see that the X1000, after two+ years of development, simply isn't living up to the "What is X?" hype from early 2010.
Everyone can see that it's slow, it's underwhelming, it's going to be overpriced, and it wouldn't be much a surprise if it never gets out of beta. It isn't anything that Amiga should be about, and it's not the fault of me or anyone who you named above. if you want somebody to blame for your crappy OS4 experience blame Hyperion and Co.
Watch out. You'll get banned for not being in love with the X1000. Any voice of reason in the midst of this insane asylum brings immediate flaming, trolling/abuse complaints and warnings from the site moderators and other inmates here. They're not worried about a free and open discussion of the issues surrounding the X1000. The site moderators and admins only want to protect their investment in out-dated, overpriced hardware. What a huge conflict of interest here. If it's any consolation, I share your opinion as do many others here but we're tired of being attacked whenever we point out what a turd the X1000 really is, or will be, if it's ever released. And it's to AEON's advantage to continue dragging their feet on a release date as the components will only get cheaper for them over time, buy they'll still demand a premium price for a complete board. So they continue with their smoke and mirrors game of bogus press releases, mystery pictures, etc, etc.....My question is this...when do even the hard-core fanatics here wake up and realize they're being scammed? Who in their right mind wants to pay $3000USD for an OS with no modern apps that runs on hardware that performs on the level of a Pentium from 2003?
I also have to agree with Franko that the PPC based Amigas have none of the allure or excitement that I still find on classic Amigas. OS4 on my PegII is like some very sick, twisted version of OSX except there are no useful applications and the graphics really suck. I'll save my money for a Natami or FPGA Arcade system. Even a SAM is a much better alternative to the X1000 when you consider the cost/performance ratio. And guess what? It's been available for quite a while now! Let's see how long now before I get flamed or threatened by a site admin/moderator and accused of abusive posts or trolling. I give it 10 minutes......
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I also have to agree with Franko that the PPC based Amigas have none of the allure or excitement that I still find on classic Amigas.
:eek: Feck me... you bugger... :eek:
Oooh... think I'm having a stoke... cobblers ferrellsl actualy agreed with me on something... aaaarggghhh... shock... too... much... to... handle...
Oh, oh... me tickers just stopped... thud. . . .
;)
PS: I'll give it 5 before the mods step in and have us all shot... ;)
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Who in their right mind wants to pay $3000USD for an OS with no modern apps that runs on hardware that performs on the level of a Pentium from 2003?
Especially when an equal or (far) better PPC system can be had for < $500 in the form of a used Mac? Oh wait, I forgot, that totally doesn't count because Hyperion haven't deigned to port OS4 to it...
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You have issues with knitting? Besides, this site is for knitting or something.
Nah, no issues it's just hard to explain things to people that don't know anything. Like talking to the cat. The cat I can understand, you on the other hand... maybe it's you on that picture, it would explain your way of (not) thinking.
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Listen folks, strong opinions are fine, but taking cheap shots at each other is not.
The site moderators and admins only want to protect their investment in out-dated, overpriced hardware. What a huge conflict ohe site moderators and admins only want to protect their investment in out-dated, overpriced hardware. What a huge conflict of interest here.f interest here.
:roflmao:
Actually, now that you mention it, I guess I did spend a fair amount on my last PC :-/
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Hmmm this thread is full of people with mental issues and people just hating for the sake of it. If your not interested, simply don't bother posting and leave real Amiga enthusiasts to enjoy the natural evolution of the operating system.
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Hmmm this thread is full of people with mental issues and people just hating for the sake of it.
How funny, I just came from AWN replying to your post to a thread I didn't start yet you unloaded on me: http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=34150&forum=2#626502 Talking about hate filled post for just the sake of it, and here you just finished doing just that on AWN. Funny that.
If your not interested, simply don't bother posting and leave real Amiga enthusiasts to enjoy the natural evolution of the operating system.
Other then Linux, what other OS will actually use the second core? Is it MP/SMP or some weak AMP kernel? Inquiring minds want to know. ;-)
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Hmmm this thread is full of people with mental issues and people just hating for the sake of it. If your not interested, simply don't bother posting and leave real Amiga enthusiasts to enjoy the natural evolution of the operating system.
But a real "Amiga enthusiast" wouldn't be using OS 4.x, a real "Amiga enthusiast" would be using genuine original Amiga hardware and doing everything possible to get the best out of it... ;)
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I also have to agree with Franko that the PPC based Amigas have none of the allure or excitement that I still find on classic Amigas.
I think you are a little heavy handed about NG amigas, but I do understand the disappointment in the X1000.
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But a real "Amiga enthusiast" wouldn't be using OS 4.x, a real "Amiga enthusiast" would be using genuine original Amiga hardware and doing everything possible to get the best out of it... ;)
In your opinion, and your opinion is not necessarily the same as the next guys.
Different people have different ideas about what makes an Amiga an Amiga. For some, it's the original hardware and software, or others it's mostly just one or the other. For those that regard the hardware as the quintessential factor, the MiniMig, FPGAArcade and NatAmi are the obvious evolution. For those that regard the OS as the main aspect, then one or more of the above NG OS are the logical evolution and what they run on is of secondary importance.
The only reason "NG" amiga operating systems exist at all is because enthusiasts have made them happen, whether they are commercial (as in the case of OS4 and MOS) or not. I doubt you could find a single developer that has worked on OS4, MorphOS or AROS that isn't or was never an avid enthusiast of the original systems.
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Considering Franko has never owned any modern computers I hardly think his opinion on NG amigas valid. Particularly because he has never owned an NG amiga, just criticize.
Frellsl
I think you are a little heavy handed about NG amigas, but I do understand the disappointment in the X1000.
Here we go again the mighty know all once again speculation and conjecturing about me and wrong as usual... :roflmao:
You must really fancy me or something... big kiss to magnetic my secret admirer... :o
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In your opinion, and your opinion is not necessarily the same as the next guys.
Different people have different ideas about what makes an Amiga an Amiga. For some, it's the original hardware and software, or others it's mostly just one or the other. For those that regard the hardware as the quintessential factor, the MiniMig, FPGAArcade and NatAmi are the obvious evolution. For those that regard the OS as the main aspect, then one or more of the above NG OS are the logical evolution and what they run on is of secondary importance.
The only reason "NG" amiga operating systems exist at all is because enthusiasts have made them happen, whether they are commercial (as in the case of OS4 and MOS) or not. I doubt you could find a single developer that has worked on OS4, MorphOS or AROS that isn't or was never an avid enthusiast of the original systems.
Course it's "my opinion" I don't speak here on behalf of anyone other than myself... ;)
I too would doubt you would find anyone working on OS 4.x, MorphOS or AROS that wasn't a true Amiga fan at some point in time but to me the real Amiga stops at 3.9 and only on genuine Amiga hardware... :)
You see to me it's getting the best out of 2Meg of chipram and it's frankly limited software & hardware resources that make the Amiga the special machine it is to me... :)
That's why I don't see the point in these so called "NG" systems and OS's as they are basically just trying to be what a bog standard PC or MAC already is and what's the point in that when you can just go out and buy a PC or MAC and be done with it... ;)
There's nothing like the genuine Amiga hardware and never will be and that's what make it so special... :)
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Wording like "stupid" and "moron" is pretty funny coming from somebody who only boots their computer to spend hours fiddling with the color settings in the BIOS configuration:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=34091&forum=14&start=200&viewmode=flat&order=0#626134
If you take that post literally then please accept my sincere condolences on the complete loss of your intelligence.
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Hey guys! So what's this thread about then?
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Hey guys! So what's this thread about then?
Biscuits & Gravy... :)
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Intergalactic sausages and ice cream! :)
*NUMNUMNUM*
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:eek: Feck me... you bugger... :eek:
Oooh... think I'm having a stoke... cobblers ferrellsl actualy agreed with me on something... aaaarggghhh... shock... too... much... to... handle...
Oh, oh... me tickers just stopped... thud. . . .
;)
PS: I'll give it 5 before the mods step in and have us all shot... ;)
Hey, I actually agree with you on more issues than not. My only complaint with you is the amiga.com bashing, but you've been pretty quiet in that respect lately. And no, I don't like amiga.com any more than you do but the flogging of the deceased equine was getting old! Just tired of hearing/reading about it. LOL
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Hey, I actually agree with you on more issues than not. My only complaint with you is the amiga.com bashing, but you've been pretty quiet in that respect lately. And no, I don't like amiga.com any more than you do but the flogging of the deceased equine was getting old! Just tired of hearing/reading about it. LOL
Sorry. you've got me lost !!!
Who's "Amiga.com" do you mean Amiga Inc :confused:
If so then I've only ever bashed them for not responding to my request to purchase a distribution licence for the Workbench disks... :(
I really don't have any complaint against them other than that as I've never actually purchased anything from them or been involved with them in any way... :)
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erm .... hey Mr Smart .. he was joking "toward" realize!
Eh?
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Sorry. you've got me lost !!!
Who's "Amiga.com" do you mean Amiga Inc :confused:
If so then I've only ever bashed them for not responding to my request to purchase a distribution licence for the Workbench disks... :(
I really don't have any complaint against them other than that as I've never actually purchased anything from them or been involved with them in any way... :)
Yep, same bunch of losers.
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Yep, same bunch of losers.
Even more confused now !!!
If their a bunch of losers then why complain if I bash em... :confused:
Methinks I'd better switch me braincell off as it's working overtime now trying to figure this one out... :)
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people keep referring to it as bashing, but it seems fair criticism if a system seems to boot slowly (and to question it/and why). And it does seem an odd move to release such a low quality out of focus video for a product that has so much hype etc. (and so much time/money put into it). I'm not going to start saying stuff is great just because it is related to the Amiga platform.
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I only saw videos of it running, not booting. I can imagine that booting spits out a lot more debug than once you're into normal operation.
Or is it just that KPrintF() wont return until the very last byte is transmitted to the serial port?
Also, I don't recall clearly, but wasn't that a different (earlier) board revision at VCF?
Would it make any difference? Proto boards are always different to zero production boards but specs are not changing (or should not change) much.
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people keep referring to it as bashing, but it seems fair criticism if a system seems to boot slowly (and to question it/and why). And it does seem an odd move to release such a low quality out of focus video for a product that has so much hype etc. (and so much time/money put into it). I'm not going to start saying stuff is great just because it is related to the Amiga platform.
Agree regarding how the video only essentially gave people nits to pick about the machine. At the very least, it would have taken 2 minutes to add a text disclaimer "slow booting due to debug code" or similar. I would expect it to boot up just as quick as my SAM does once it's released. Or simply release such a video when it actually boots to OS in seconds rather than essentially minutes, lol.
The X1000 is about $1500 from what I'd ever pay for another OS4 PC, and quite frankly won't do a darned thing more than my lowly SAM 440ep does right now. Software for OS4 is the issue, not hardware. A multi megahertz X1000 won't let me view modern web content any quicker than my SAM, the browser to do so is simply non existant to get that job done.
I'm far from a OS4 fanboy, but any machine will absolutely crawl during power on if it has 9001 things to check on during boot debug mode.
The video wasn't an encouraging thing to view for a product people are already highly skeptical of and shouldn't have been released in the form it was, tbh. Sure, it's proof the HW actually exists and runs, but sure leaves a sour taste in most peoples' mouths. Even for guys like myself that know first hand how fast a NG "Amiga" whether it be OS4 or MorphOS can actually power up, it's a terrible demonstration.
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people keep referring to it as bashing, but it seems fair criticism if a system seems to boot slowly (and to question it/and why).
I can see that some non-technical people may not understand the development cycle and may genuinely believe that. Some people in this thread I'm sure DO know it, and realise that what they are saying is a nugget of purest FUD.
Remember, this is a beta test system.
It will have serial debug output, probably at 9600 baud.
It could easily be tracking every single call to every single library, and dumping the text at that speed, which could take about 6mS.
That means after just 1000 calls, you'd have a 6 second delay.
Now tell me again how that is at all indicative of the final non-debug speed of the system, please!
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Even for guys like myself that know first hand how fast a NG "Amiga" whether it be OS4 or MorphOS can actually power up, it's a terrible demonstration.
Don't forget, who the video is aimed at, though. It's aimed purely at developers and they can see the importance of what is in the video without worrying about boot times and stuff. If this was to entice new users I'd agree but they know what they're doing here - this video won't scare off any of their target market at all.
The rest of your post I know what you mean though!
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Here we go again the mighty know all once again speculation and conjecturing about me and wrong as usual... :roflmao:
You must really fancy me or something... big kiss to magnetic my secret admirer... :o
No I just cant stand your lies and bull****. Please tell us what your most modern computer and os is?? What is it again Tiger on an imac?
YOU HAVE NEVER OWNED AN NG SYSTEM NOR CAN AFFORD AN NG SYSTEM SO STFU ABOUT NG IN GENERAL.
And DO NOT speak for the amiga community, you are a poor representative.
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I can see that some non-technical people may not understand the development cycle and may genuinely believe that. Some people in this thread I'm sure DO know it, and realise that what they are saying is a nugget of purest FUD.
Spirantho, you are half right. As far as the non techies you have a point. As far as the developers that are posting, these people dont spread FUD they spread TRUTH. Its their opinion.
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Agree regarding how the video only essentially gave people nits to pick about the machine. At the very least, it would have taken 2 minutes to add a text disclaimer "slow booting due to debug code" or similar. I would expect it to boot up just as quick as my SAM does once it's released. Or simply release such a video when it actually boots to OS in seconds rather than essentially minutes, lol.
.
Well I do agree with you somewhat as far as the vid being "bad" There are some factors
1. This guy posting this is a tech for Amikit. Just for him to take the time to get the cam going and digitize the footage, edit it and post it up is a plus. I'm sure the guy is crazy busy.
2. It was not an attempt at a promo vid, just to show it working.
3. Hyperion or their partner should have already had a pro video out about this system. Especially after all that silly "What is X" hype.
**EDIT*** This just in
Chris apologized for the quality, but he only had time to run off a quick video in between setting up and testing Nemo 2.1 motherboards. He has promised to produce another video showing AmigaOS4 running various demos when he has more time.
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Spirantho, you are half right. As far as the non techies you have a point. As far as the developers that are posting, these people dont spread FUD they spread TRUTH. Its their opinion.
If they as developers don't realise that the speed of debug code is not representative of that of a release build then I fear for their code! :)
There is some genuine concern I can see but also some blatant FUD in this thread!
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spirantho
ok fair enough lets look at this "FUD" term ppl on these boards throw around a lot
F ear Hmm I dont think anyone is 'afraid' of anything
U ncertainty Yes plenty of that on this project
D oubt Again much of that
So I guess you are almost right about "FUD"
;)
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Very slow at booting. TBH my Windows 7 machine boots faster :-) Was surprised as I've seen amiga os 4.0 booting on older hardware faster :-/
Hopefully just a bug/beta issue. But keen on getting one.
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I can see that some non-technical people may not understand the development cycle and may genuinely believe that. Some people in this thread I'm sure DO know it, and realise that what they are saying is a nugget of purest FUD.
Remember, this is a beta test system.
It will have serial debug output, probably at 9600 baud.
It could easily be tracking every single call to every single library, and dumping the text at that speed, which could take about 6mS.
That means after just 1000 calls, you'd have a 6 second delay.
Now tell me again how that is at all indicative of the final non-debug speed of the system, please!
:roflmao:
If you had to hang on spooling out text to a serial port clocked at 9600 baud to print out a message *every* time a library call was made you would wind up with a completely unusable system.
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If you had to hang on spooling out text to a serial port clocked at 9600 baud to print out a message *every* time a library call was made you would wind up with a completely unusable system.
Exactly! so if you only log say 10% of your calls then you still end up with what appears to be a very slow system, which is what we see here.
Q.E.D.
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3. Hyperion or their partner should have already had a pro video out about this system. Especially after all that silly "What is X" hype.
I seriously doubt they have anything worth showing. The only seriously redeeming feature a NG Amiga system that would impress anyone would be an absurdly fast boot time. Press the button, wait a couple of seconds and bam, there's the desktop. It's not like there's a whole hell of a lot going on in there. If they could show that, they would have.
All these excuses about it being a debug build responsible for the machine running like utter crap is just lame. There must be some really atrocious code flung together to get this running on the pa6t.
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Exactly! so if you only log say 10% of your calls then you still end up with what appears to be a very slow system, which is what we see here.
Q.E.D.
I can't think of anything more useless than lobbing a bunch of printf's to the serial port for debugging. That's bush league stuff. The processor has a JTAG interface for that kind of thing.
(http://technical.amigakit.com/X1000/Nemo/07.jpg)
That's probably what that 16 pin header in the middle is for.
Here's a product that makes use of it:
http://www.abatron.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/products/pdf/ManGdbPA6-3000.pdf
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All these excuses about it being a debug build responsible for the machine running like utter crap is just lame. There must be some really atrocious code flung together to get this running on the pa6t.
A debug build will always be slower, that's not an excuse that's a reason.
These are BETA builds, not release. They have debugging kernels.
If you don't believe me I challenge you to ask any kernel or os developer how fast their beta, debug, serial output enabled machines ran.
That's my last comment, not getting into an argument here.
Oh,
fear: telling people the machine will not come out.
uncertainty: making people think that the machine really might be booting that slow for a reason other than debug code
doubt: making people doubt the abilities of the writers.
A lot of FUD in this thread.
Just in case I get accused of being an OS4 fanboy, I actually run OS4,MorphOS and AROS.
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A debug build will always be slower, that's not an excuse that's a reason.
These are BETA builds, not release. They have debugging kernels.
If you don't believe me I challenge you to ask any kernel or os developer how fast their beta, debug, serial output enabled machines ran.
The reason debug builds are slower is because they're compiled without optimization, but non optimized builds aren't that slow and this is a fast processor with gobs of ram and not starved for IO. The serial port has nothing to do with this. You wouldn't use the serial port to debug system code anyway.
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I am surprise they didn't run it off a solid state hard drive. I know my wind 7 machine boot in under 30 secs. with one.
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Great vid AmigaKit and A-eon thanks for showing us some progress. :)
PS: cant be bothered with any one else, I realised in the Timberwolf progress thread which was derailed due to the infighting it best to just not feed the trolls and let them just get on with it, just for the record I'm a fan of all camps any one who has a interest in Amiga or Amiga'like system is ok with me (expect for when its a PC :)) just happen to have more intrest in OS4 than morphos.
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Remember, this is a beta test system.
It will have serial debug output, probably at 9600 baud.
testing aros68k on a range of 030 to 060 machines i get a serial debug on 115200, i dont get why a 2ghz machine could not do that. also on aros68k there is not the whole load of debug enabled as default of course, yet available as option. testing on slow machines would be a nightmare otherwise. so if i would now post a video of aros booting on an a4000 and someone would claim that it is slow, i couldnt put up serial debug as a sole execuse.
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Wrong. King Kong has the biggest balls in the animal kingdom. Standby for photos.
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I seriously doubt they have anything worth showing. The only seriously redeeming feature a NG Amiga system that would impress anyone would be an absurdly fast boot time. Press the button, wait a couple of seconds and bam, there's the desktop. It's not like there's a whole hell of a lot going on in there. If they could show that, they would have.
All these excuses about it being a debug build responsible for the machine running like utter crap is just lame. There must be some really atrocious code flung together to get this running on the pa6t.
If you've read up on some of the things they're planing there will be things to show. But really, what is there to show in AOS 3.x? Or in MOS? Or AROS for that matter, it boots fast...
I don't get more excited over the other options since they don't bring anything else from what AOS 4 got. AOS 3 got even less new programs and MOS... will there be a new 3D driver system? Printer drivers? Will you ever be able to run it on new hardware again? Even though cheap macs are nice in a way they will only feal modern for so long. They already lacks a HDMI port and the graphics cards are old. They will only be cheap and fast for a couple of years. The next Amiga (or amigalike) system that I'll buy got to be able to play a fullhd movie on my TV being connected with a HDMI cable and from I've read the X1000 will be able to do that. I know that my PowerMAC never will. I don't know about AROS, maybe it handles it but it got a long way to go still IMO.
The goal for me is to be able to do as much as possible with the Amiga to use the PC less since I enjoy AOS more. I don't know what goals others have but since the recent braging about OWB for MOS being able to display Youtube clips in a nice way it seems that it's the goal for MOS users too. An old powermac won't do for long though. The strong reactions that will come from this comment is because you know it's trues... sad but true.
The X1000 is the most exciting amiga ng project at the moment even if it's far from the original Amiga.
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Or is it just that KPrintF() wont return until the very last byte is transmitted to the serial port?
I would suspect that's quite likely. If it used any sort of asynchronous operation that depended on a background worker task pushing out messages from a queue it would be next to useless if any crash caused a lockup as you'd never know with any certainty that you'd got the last few messages and hence what actually caused it.
I can't think of anything more useless than lobbing a bunch of printf's to the serial port for debugging. That's bush league stuff. The processor has a JTAG interface for that kind of thing.
Yeah but let's be realistic, most beta-testers aren't going to have access to JTAG-based debugging tools, whereas most people can at least shove a serial line into something and capture the output.
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This thread is a lot worse than that one at AW.net.. ;-)
Anyway. Up to half the boot delay seems to be due to various stages of boot menus that waited for input before continuing on default. The OS4 selection was obvious with a progress bar shrinking over 10-15 seconds before it continued.
I don't believe saying that a debug kernel would slow things down (apart from serial debugging), and be compiled without optimization. Using different optimization modes for debug and non-debug is dangerous and should never be done!
However, to reduce the FUD I think someone should take an hour and configure an X1000 with optimal boot speeds:
1. Set the serial speed to 1Mbit (I'm sure it supports it, otherwise at least 115k2.)
2. Remove all boot selection timeouts or reduce them to something minimal, or do a manual selection immediately to speed it up.
3. Comment out all modules and libraries not needed for the machine, such as 3dfx, SIL, SCSI and whatever other kickstart modules.
4. Put Run >NIL: on the AddNetInterfaces in s-s.
Now make a new video and amaze us all :-D
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Now tell me again how that is at all indicative of the final non-debug speed of the system, please!
See, it's entirely possible there's a good excuse for this - but it would really help if anything in the video or its comments stated the conditions that would cause it to take that long. "Debug build" by itself isn't sufficient, I've run lots of debug builds that are nearly as fast as the final release.
YOU HAVE NEVER OWNED AN NG SYSTEM NOR CAN AFFORD AN NG SYSTEM SO STFU ABOUT NG IN GENERAL.
So, what, now you have to have enough spare income to be able to drop $2300 on a system that underperforms a $500 used Mac just to be allowed to comment on NG Amiga projects? No thanks. I can learn more than enough to draw some basic conclusions by looking at information that's freely available online.
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Great vid AmigaKit and A-eon thanks for showing us some progress. :)
PS: cant be bothered with any one else, I realised in the Timberwolf progress thread which was derailed due to the infighting it best to just not feed the trolls and let them just get on with it, just for the record I'm a fan of all camps any one who has a interest in Amiga or Amiga'like system is ok with me (expect for when its a PC :)) just happen to have more intrest in OS4 than morphos.
Thanks AmigaNG, my thoughts exactly.
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42 seconds not quick enough for you? Damn quick compared to my AMD 4800X2 with Vista.
But slow as hell compared to my low end sam 440ep 533mhhz...
The loading of kickstart on my os4.1 system takes less than half the time of x1000. A warm reboot is completed within 7-9 seconds.
But either way this is a beta, so it will hopefully be fixed by the time it is really released.
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If you don't want open critiscism, don't post videos like this its that simple. My windows and linux boxes both boot faster than that, so I'm pretty sure morphos boots faster than that too.
Booting speed is not something I usually care about, but considering how much this thing will be crashing, I think fast boot speed is probably a good feature to work on.
:roflmao:
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No I just cant stand your lies and bull****. Please tell us what your most modern computer and os is?? What is it again Tiger on an imac?
YOU HAVE NEVER OWNED AN NG SYSTEM NOR CAN AFFORD AN NG SYSTEM SO STFU ABOUT NG IN GENERAL.
And DO NOT speak for the amiga community, you are a poor representative.
You don't half live in a fantasy world full of BS don't you... :rolleyes:
As usual WRONG on everything you just posted yet again... :roflmao:
Sonny boy I could buy and sell you and your kind with the small change in me pockets but I wouldn't waste my money of faulty, obsolete and insignificant cr@p like you... ;)
Show's you how dumb you really are I've already posted here that I speak for myself and no-one else, yet you rattle your gums and tell me not to speak for the Amiga community, you really are the dumbest SOB I've ever came across... :lol:
Now toddle off and find someone who actually cares about what you say or just simply toddle off... ;)
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Update 3 for OS 4.1 is out now:
http://hyperion-entertainment.biz/
http://i.imgur.com/Ti23B.png
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but considering how much this thing will be crashing
.....and you know this how?
Ah, of course, you don't actually know this at all. You are presuming this to be the case therefore leading me to believe that you would criticize no matter what the video showed.
So tell me, what have you done for the Amiga lately? Have you been developing an alternative to Hyperions hardware? Are you working on Aros or MorphOS? Did you or are you writing Natami drivers? Please share with us, you obviously know more than the rest of us.
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The next Amiga (or amigalike) system that I'll buy got to be able to play a fullhd movie on my TV being connected with a HDMI cable and from I've read the X1000 will be able to do that. I know that my PowerMAC never will.
You are just wrong. Today a PowerMac G4 already replays 720p vids easily (my 1.5 GHz Mac mini is pretty loaded with 720p, but actually does handle it nicely) . You want hdmi? Easy, get a hdmi/dvi cable and be done (hdmi is backward is compatible dvi).
The G5 does easily replay full hd, it has been tested already by Fab.
You see, your demand is fully covered by the rusty old el cheapo Apple gear with MorphOS. Part of your demand since about two years meanwhile (720p hdmi). But of course you may continue to wait for the holy grail....
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You are just wrong. Today a PowerMac G4 already replays 720p vids easily (my 1.5 GHz Mac mini is pretty loaded with 720p, but actually does handle it nicely) . You want hdmi? Easy, get a hdmi/dvi cable and be done (hdmi is backward is compatible dvi).
The G5 does easily replay full hd, it has been tested already by Fab.
You see, your demand is fully covered by the rusty old el cheapo Apple gear with MorphOS. Part of your demand since about two years meanwhile (720p hdmi). But of course you may continue to wait for the holy grail....
Without audio, right? I want audio too. I got a powermac and can even watch fullhd in macos x. The holy grail? No the better amiga option. The holy grail would be Commodore not making those misstakes aand still making the best computer in the world. Now it is about using whatever fits you best. I wouldn't mind buying MOS for the powermac to try it out but it isn't available yet. But there is nothing wrong in thinking that something new for MOS would be good as well.
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Without audio, right? I want audio too. I got a powermac and can even watch fullhd in macos x.
MacOSX != MorphOS
I believe it's fair to say the latter makes more of the available processing power of your typical G4 Mac than the former ever did.
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MacOSX != MorphOS
I believe it's fair to say the latter makes more of the available processing power of your typical G4 Mac than the former ever did.
Excuse me but what the heck has it got to do with what I wrote? I wrote that I can watch fullhd in macos x and that was it. Not that it can't be done in MOS, I already knows it can. How ... whay are you telling me this? HDMI.... video and audio through a HDMI cable.
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Without audio, right? I want audio too.
Maybe I get mad, but while I watch movies on my Mac mini I not only hear voices, but also music. Incredible!!! How can that be since there is no hdmi port????
But I have an idea: Theres is this pretty funny 3.5mm jack on the back of my mac mini. I had this übercrazy idea to take a few copper cables I connect this jack with my hifi amplifier. Wow - what an effect: Music, voices. Lord of the rings actualy is no silent movie as I thought all the years before!!
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Update 3 for OS 4.1 is out now:
http://hyperion-entertainment.biz/
http://i.imgur.com/Ti23B.png
Completely flat lined my SAM 440ep :/
Guess I'll do a full reinstall from u1, then u2 and then u3 and see if it helps.
The splash screen it is locked up at is quite pretty, however. :confused:
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Excuse me but what the heck has it got to do with what I wrote?
Sorry, misread your post as "I got a powermac and cant even watch fullhd in macos x"...
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Maybe I get mad, but while I watch movies on my Mac mini I not only hear voices, but also music. Incredible!!! How can that be since there is no hdmi port????
But I have an idea: Theres is this pretty funny 3.5mm jack on the back of my mac mini. I had this übercrazy idea to take a few copper cables I connect this jack with my hifi amplifier. Wow - what an effect: Music, voices. Lord of the rings actualy is no silent movie as I thought all the years before!!
Oh what do you know! There it is! Great! Except that I don't have my hifi amplifier set up, my speaker system isn't in front of me when I watch movies, it's in front of me when I sit in front of my computer, I don't want the sound to come from the side, I don't want to cary around the speakers, I want the sound to come out from my TV. And why would I bother when it works the way I want to from the PC? It will work the way I want to on the X1000 but it never will on the PowerMac. I think that I'm allowed to have thoughts about how I want my computers to work, not how you think that they should work (or anyone else). It doesn't work on a PowerMac, end of story.
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Sorry, misread your post as "I got a powermac and cant even watch fullhd in macos x"...
Ok then I know. Fab wrote that it works even though MOS is just using one CPU at the moment so I know it works.
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Update 3 for OS 4.1 is out now:
http://hyperion-entertainment.biz/
http://i.imgur.com/Ti23B.png
Seems like they skipped the beta testing phase entirely in OS4.1.3 judging by the reception it got...
Maybe if they had *really* spent "just another two more weeks" they could have reached the "When it's done!" :lol: ;)
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Oh what do you know! There it is! Great! Except that I don't have my hifi amplifier set up, my speaker system isn't in front of me when I watch movies, it's in front of me when I sit in front of my computer, I don't want the sound to come from the side, I don't want to cary around the speakers, I want the sound to come out from my TV. And why would I bother when it works the way I want to from the PC? It will work the way I want to on the X1000 but it never will on the PowerMac. I think that I'm allowed to have thoughts about how I want my computers to work, not how you think that they should work (or anyone else). It doesn't work on a PowerMac, end of story.
dvi-i is also able to transmit digital audio data. If your dvi source supports audio, you'll have audio on the hdmi plug, too.
It's not a problem of the hardware, it is a problem of the software.
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Not a good day for OS 4 users.
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dvi-i is also able to transmit digital audio data. If your dvi source supports audio, you'll have audio on the hdmi plug, too.
It's not a problem of the hardware, it is a problem of the software.
Ok but does video and audio work with MOS using a DVI-HDMI converter would be the question then.
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Not a good day for OS 4 users.
Thank you for your concern but it's a pretty good day for me :-) . DVPlayer and AOS 4.1 update 3 works pretty good I must say. It's faster, some improvements and bugfixes. Pretty nice, you should check it out ;-)
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Tripitaka,
I am an aros guy for the record. I'm not sure why you expect me to go ra ra for a 2ghz powerpc computer. I had a powermac that beat that 5 years ago, and it could use all cores/processors, unlike this pile of outdated tech.
Just because someone is critical of something, don't hate on them. Especially when they are right. I simply think paying 2500$ for 5 year old speed computer is stupid, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
AOS will die a slow death because of lack of decent hardware unless they port to x86 or arm at least. BTW, Aros already runs on both.
My current AROS box is 3.4ghz and can run rings around this x1000 on just any ANY test imaginable. You can get one for 50 bucks on ebay.
Kinda beats 2500$ in my view, and the os is open, and not run by *******s with no vision and no sense of reality. And BTW you know AROS right? Thats the thing those AOS4 coders keep taking code from without sharing their own work or open sourcing their own developments so everyone can benefit.
Steven
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Tripitaka,
I am an aros guy for the record. I'm not sure why you expect me to go ra ra for a 2ghz powerpc computer. I had a powermac that beat that 5 years ago, and it could use all cores/processors, unlike this pile of outdated tech.
Just because someone is critical of something, don't hate on them. Especially when they are right. I simply think paying 2500$ for 5 year old speed computer is stupid, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
AOS will die a slow death because of lack of decent hardware unless they port to x86 or arm at least. BTW, Aros already runs on both.
My current AROS box is 3.4ghz and can run rings around this x1000 on just any ANY test imaginable. You can get one for 50 bucks on ebay.
Kinda beats 2500$ in my view, and the os is open, and not run by *******s with no vision and no sense of reality. And BTW you know AROS right? Thats the thing those AOS4 coders keep taking code from without sharing their own work or open sourcing their own developments so everyone can benefit.
Steven
First of all speed isn't everything and if that is the only thing that matters there are other options as well with more software and better compatibility with other platforms. With Linux you get Skype, Flash, a good MSN client, several good browsers etc.
In other words, that statement doesn't hold any water.
Second, does AROS support multiple cores, memory tracking, memory protection, filesystem advanced as Ext 3 or even JXFS, flash, skype...?
Third, all amigaos-like operating systems including amigaos itself needs to be either updated which takes time and I'm sure you know the situation (or at least I hope you do after that comment) or they can throw it away, so there are no perfect solution regarding hardware for reasons that you can search for yourself, I've read it, there are long threads and I won't try to memorize exactly what was written, nor will I try to find the threads for you.
I don't know what the purpose about that comment is other than saying that you... ehm... well I don't know. I don't care what happens with AROS or MOS but I don't whish for the operating systems to die. I whish some other things for some users (not death) though but that has nothing to do with the operating system.
You want speed? Use a light-weight Linux that supports multiple cores and all other modern standards.
Regarding AROS, it lacks lots of features found only in AOS 4 and MOS. It's also up to each and every individual to pick whatever suits him best. Shall everyone do like you though and write some mad comment about other options? What's your problem?
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AOS will die a slow death because of lack of decent hardware unless they port to x86 or arm at least. BTW, Aros already runs on both.
Hell, they don't even have to do that, just port to PPC Macs. I've got a quad-core G5 which massively outperforms this thing that I got refurbished for 1/6th the cost. The dual-cores are closer to 1/12th. There's a wealth of these machines out there for much more affordable prices than any of the custom boards; they could run AOS4 beautifully if Hyperion would only port to them.
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Hey I wish them the best, I simply think they've made major mistakes and continue to blunder what could have been a fantastic opportunity for them. I'm entitled to my opinion, and I'm sorry if you don't like it.
Your right AROS does not yet support multiple cores (but may soon) Still, my 3.4ghz box runs rings around anything aos has, including the x1000 which is still not here yet and thats not opinion, thats a fact.
Speed doesn't matter? Okay, then why aren't you still using your first 2mhz 8 bit computer? Of course speed matters, its the most important thing in a computer and determines what work the computer can do in reasonable timeframes.
Steven
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@haywirepc
If you want x86 or ARM, you're free to use AROS. OS4 and MOS are just fine as they are on PowerPC, and nothing is going to change that for the present.
I personally dislike the fact that people here feel the need to go to the red or the blue and change them. AROS does what you want, just leave blue and red alone. In the case of Blue, we have a defined roadmap for the present and we arent going to change that. Red, they seem to be more than a little turbid in terms of where to go, but there are sales for them. So, AROS, either buy the needed hardware to run MOS or OS4 or you're free to use what you want on AROS.
Also, there is the Megahertz myth. All things considered, the megahertz have little to do with speed. I can watch 720p video on My G4 mac, it runs circles on computers owned by my computer consultant friend, including his brand new machine he built.
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commodorejohn, Yes I agree and it wouldn't take that major an effort, at least not as major as porting to x86. Ignoring all those fantastic power pc which are now cheap machines and building your own motherboard is one of the blunders I think they made. Quad core g5's smoke this x1000 like crazy, and they are how many years old now?
Steven
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I know people running G5s with Yellow Dog and Debian which outrun all Intel machines they have been put up against. Source code optimization is the reason that I can make a game for the Wii that runs better than on a PC. When I get some dev machines, I will be putting a mix of E, C and ASM for 68k and PPC. Assembly code is by far the most efficient code for a machine.
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Hey I wish them the best, I simply think they've made major mistakes and continue to blunder what could have been a fantastic opportunity for them. I'm entitled to my opinion, and I'm sorry if you don't like it.
Your right AROS does not yet support multiple cores (but may soon) Still, my 3.4ghz box runs rings around anything aos has, including the x1000 which is still not here yet and thats not opinion, thats a fact.
Speed doesn't matter? Okay, then why aren't you still using your first 2mhz 8 bit computer? Of course speed matters, its the most important thing in a computer and determines what work the computer can do in reasonable timeframes.
Steven
I don't know if that was aimed at me but I didn't wrote that speed doesn't matter. There are always several things that matters. Just like there are different reasons for what OS someone use or prefer.
Regarding the X1000, I'm not sure if I will be able to afford it or if I will buy it but it's better than nothing. Compared to the Mac it will be able to take a PC graphicscard that is a lot more up to date than the Radeon 9600.
Anyway, I understand the frustration that is mainly about the price, right? I think that there are lots of people not being happy about the price but on the other hand there isn't much that can be done about that except for porting it to Mac. That would be a short-term solution too so no matter how I look a it there are no perfect solution. I think I'll take it easy, enjoy what I have and see what happens. If the X1000 turns out to be too expensive I wait.
If you want to try AOS 4 (if that's part of the frustration) you could buy second hand A1, Pegasos II, Sams...
Regarding MOS and AROS the hardware is cheap and available though.
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@HotRod
Exactly my point, I wish people would stop complaining about it, and the fact its plenty fast leaves me miffed at why they insist on whining
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@HotRod
Exactly my point, I wish people would stop complaining about it, and the fact its plenty fast leaves me miffed at why they insist on whining
I can understand the frustration sometimes but I agree, try and take it easy and enjoy what you have. If you look at the hardware available, AOS 4 just like MOS and AROS is light-weight and fast so I would say that it depends on what you want to do. Like I've written I would like to watch fullhd movies and my old A1 are too slow. Browsing is ok but can be on the slow side (800MHz CPU) but on the other hand OWBMUI looks pretty quick on the Pegasos 2. Except for that I'm happy with it speed wise since I don't render pictures or edit videos. For someone else this might be important (don't know if there are any video editing software available for any of the NG amigalike oses). However, if it isn't I think a second hand Pegasos II would make a nice machine. Most of the times it feels like a much faster PC.
Just making suggestions in case that's what's bothering you, trying to help.
That I could afford the A1 when in 2004 doesn't meen that I can afford the X1000 now. Not the Sam 460 either for that matter. Back then I had to choose between a Pegasos and the A1 G4 XE which was tough but I went with the A1 since the Frieden brothers had done a good impression on their mailinglist being very helpfull, friendly and trustworthy. I didn't have much to go on regarding MOS, from what I remember reading was that they caused lots of noice and trouble so that was pretty much it. I didn't know what to expect, if it would be good or bad and so on but I've been happy with it for the most part.
What I had before was a maxed out A4k that was feeling old and I was kind of tired of all the hacks and stuff.
Anyway I don't have any high hopes regarding any of the AOS solutions any more. With no new hardware for MOS in sight (don't know if there are a plan beyond porting it to Mac), AROS being open source and if the only option it seems to me it will be an OS for a very small group of people for a long time (10-20 years) untill it will get in a state where it can compete with Windows, Linux, Mac OS X and with AOS we got the expensive hardware.
None of them are up to date with the big OSs so you will be limited in some way no matter what you choose to do.
Anyway, a second hand computer to try it out is what I would go for if I wanted to try it out right now. It seems to always be a buyer available if you don't like it.
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Reinstalled u1, u2, u3. Works fine now, SAM 440ep. Only thing I can think that was jacking it up was something with the SDK that I had installed on 4.1 u2.
Just a heads up for anyone looking to upgrade!
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Anyway, I understand the frustration that is mainly about the price, right? I think that there are lots of people not being happy about the price but on the other hand there isn't much that can be done about that except for porting it to Mac. That would be a short-term solution too so no matter how I look a it there are no perfect solution.
There might not be a perfect solution, but used hardware that's cheap, powerful, and available is sure a lot better solution than paying premium prices for custom hardware that's middling at best and has been delayed for...how long, now?
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WIth MorphOS, Beyond macs we will cross that bridge when we'll come to it. For the present, PPC Macs are more than fast enough, especially considering PC games right now suck compared to 360, Wii and PS3 counterparts, and games are about the only thing new PCs can do over a PPC Mac. I can edit and make HD video on my G4s, play UT2k4 on net servers and listen to my favorite tunes.
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Tripitaka,
I am an aros guy for the record. I'm not sure why you expect me to go ra ra for a 2ghz powerpc computer. I had a powermac that beat that 5 years ago, and it could use all cores/processors, unlike this pile of outdated tech.
Just because someone is critical of something, don't hate on them. Especially when they are right. I simply think paying 2500$ for 5 year old speed computer is stupid, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
AOS will die a slow death because of lack of decent hardware unless they port to x86 or arm at least. BTW, Aros already runs on both.
My current AROS box is 3.4ghz and can run rings around this x1000 on just any ANY test imaginable. You can get one for 50 bucks on ebay.
Kinda beats 2500$ in my view, and the os is open, and not run by *******s with no vision and no sense of reality. And BTW you know AROS right? Thats the thing those AOS4 coders keep taking code from without sharing their own work or open sourcing their own developments so everyone can benefit.
Steven
I'm with you 100%, but watch out. You'll get banned or threatened for being a voice of reason here in the midst of this asylum.
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I'm with you 100%, but watch out. You'll get banned or threatened for being a voice of reason here in the midst of this asylum.
Nah he won't, he had a valid point, you on the other hand are clearly trolling.
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Nah he won't, he had a valid point, you on the other hand are clearly trolling.
I'm not trolling one bit you jerk. I've pointed out on more than one occasion that the X1000 is a turd based on price/performance ratio and provided benchmarks that showed the X1000 CPU performing on par with Pentium class CPUs dating from back in 2003-2005. You'd have thought I insulted someones mother by providing those FACTS. I got called all kinds of names, threatened by several users and a site moderator also told me that I was close to being banned. You're the only troll in sight at the moment.
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@Ferrellsl
We all have differing opinions but you are going way too far. Trolling is wrong, and you are kind of being the jerk by saying the rest of us don't have reason. Its like ice cream, not everyone likes the same flavors. If you feel so determined to prove a point go to the AROS sites, they'll be more than happy to house another troll
You also use the Megahertz myth and manipulation of facts. The X1000 is something, its substance an you are being a disrespectful twit.
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I'm not trolling one bit you jerk. I've pointed out on more than one occasion that the X1000 is a turd based on price/performance ratio and provided benchmarks that showed the X1000 CPU performing on par with Pentium class CPUs dating from back in 2003-2005. You'd have thought I insulted someones mother by providing those FACTS. I got called all kinds of names, threatened by several users and a site moderator also told me that I was close to being banned. You're the only troll in sight at the moment.
Here you go *throws him his medicine*
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News from TrevorDick of A-Eon
Chris Follett, AmigaKit's lead technician, has produced a quick video of the AmigaOne X1000 booting to AmigaOS4.1 Update 3. Chris apologized for the quality, but he only had time to run off a quick video in between setting up and testing Nemo 2.1 motherboards. He has promised to produce another video showing AmigaOS4 running various demos when he has more time.
AmigaOS4.1 Update 3 booting on AmigaOne X1000 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&v=c1a_8SUTi6k)
Trevor Dickinson
The problem with the X1000 is size. I just don't want a ATX size PC anymore. I'm going to be retired and living in a motorhome or old folks home by the time this thing comes out anyway and simply won't have the space.
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@Ferrellsl
We all have differing opinions but you are going way too far. Trolling is wrong, and you are kind of being the jerk by saying the rest of us don't have reason. Its like ice cream, not everyone likes the same flavors. If you feel so determined to prove a point go to the AROS sites, they'll be more than happy to house another troll
You also use the Megahertz myth and manipulation of facts. The X1000 is something, its substance an you are being a disrespectful twit.
How am I going too far or trolling by agreeing with someone who also feels just as I do, that the X1000 is out-dated, over-priced hardware? Haywirepc also provided cost comparisons and facts as to why he feels the X1000 is such a poor performer, which is more than anyone can say about you. He was objective and gave us FACTS. He wasn't subjective and spouting drivel. AROS currently stomps all over ANY of the Amiga variants out there.... in all areas, graphics, CPU performance, price, etc....And it will eventually have multi-core support and be more feature-rich than OS4......Your subjective drivel about ice cream and "substance" is utter bullsh@t. Not a single fact or point brought to the table. But hey, if you want to believe that $3000USD for a system with broken or no USB 2.0 support, opengl 1.3 graphics, and a CPU from 2005 is a wonderful bargain, then be my guest. Even if Hyperion updates the graphics and fixes/adds USB 2.0 support, you're still looking at a hugely expensive system that will perform like a Pentium from 2005 or earlier, if it ever gets released.
It's laughable.....if you disagree with the X1000 fanboys, they immediately label you a troll....no facts, nothing objective......just a lot of BS about how they love the X1000 and that it's so wonderful and that we're not giving Hyperion and AEON a chance......oh please....
And I'm so hurt to be on dreamcast270mhz's ignore list.....NOT.
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Okay well since ferrellsl is now on my ignore list, the conversation is again relaxed.
@bbond007
I agree, its kind of big, and is taking its sweet time
@thread
I'm not an OS4 advocate by any means, my MOS systems are way better. People are worrying way too much. My thoughts? Shut it and buy a $100 USD Mac, its cheap, powerful and way better any OS4 system, except maybe a Pegasos.
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How am I going too far or trolling by agreeing with someone who also feels just as I do, that the X1000 is out-dated, over-priced hardware? Haywirepc also provided cost comparisons and facts as to why he feels the X1000 is such a poor performer, which is more than anyone can say about you. He was objective and gave us FACTS. He wasn't subjective and spouting drivel. AROS currently stomps all over ANY of the Amiga variants out there.... in all areas, graphics, CPU performance, price, etc....And it will eventually have multi-core support and be more feature-rich than OS4......Your subjective drivel about ice cream and "substance" is utter bullsh@t. Not a single fact or point brought to the table. But hey, if you want to believe that $3000USD for a system with broken or no USB 2.0 support, opengl 1.3 graphics, and a CPU from 2005 is a wonderful bargain, then be my guest. Even if Hyperion updates the graphics and fixes/adds USB 2.0 support, you're still looking at a hugely expensive system that will perform like a Pentium from 2005 or earlier, if it ever gets released.
You can express your thoughts in a civil manner or you can be an ass. If you can't express your thought in a civil manner you got issues. If you really don't know the difference I feel sorry for you, you must be an adult and what you write could be written by an insecure teenager with a bad attitude to anything an deverything. That's is most likely the reason.
Try to write what you think without badmouthing people and things, it is possible.
Also I agreed with him but your cocky smart ass coment was uncalled for. You didn't add anything to it other than your negative trolling. If you agree with someone try writing "I agree". See the difference?
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AROS currently stomps all over ANY of the Amiga variants out there.... in all areas, graphics, CPU performance, price, etc...
but can it run AMIGA (RTG friendly) software such as TVPaint?
That is like stating a CAR stomps all over ANY BOAT because it has a higher top speed.
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AmigaOS4.1 Update 3 booting on AmigaOne X1000 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&v=c1a_8SUTi6k)
I watched the video. That was a truly very impressive bootup. Probably one of the best bootups I have ever seen, and I have seen quite a few! (I owned a prototype Olivetti ARC BIOS MIPS machine)
I would compare it to watching the space shuttle launch. Not exactly fast, but powerful and awe-inspiring.
Some people might claim that the part with the status bar and esoteric text message is too drawn out, but I'd argue it adds to the suspense and overall experience. "Good things come to those who wait..."
Do you think you could make the video output start shaking when the status bar gets to about 80%? The shaking should become increasingly more pronounced while progress proceeds to 99% then just dramatically stops to reveal a crystal-clear non-interlaced high resolution desktop.
Anyway, that would totally be enough to separate me from a bunch of my Social Security checks when this puppy comes out. Hopefully both I and the Social Security program live long enough for that to happen. Will there be an AARP discount for the x1000?
I can only hope that future videos give us a sneak peek at the real techie stuff like shutdown and reboot and that the Morphos crew (of pirates) does not appropriate (steal) any of this stuff.
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I would compare it to watching the space shuttle launch. Not exactly fast, but powerful and awe-inspiring.
I think there is a job for you at apple!. Although you didn't mention how intimate it was too.
I don't get as much excitement as you from booting a computer really. although I guess there was some enjoyment from
READY>
as well as
@ 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd (nice font!)
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Hey I wish them the best,
Hypocrite!
In an earlier post you stated, in reference to the X1000:
"but considering how much this thing will be crashing"
An unfounded statement that you cannot have any evidence to back up as the damn machine isn't out yet, and now you say you wish them the best :/
Either your making unfounded statements about reliability or you wish them the best, you can't have it both ways.
As for Aros, I'll be installing that to my netbook once I pick up a new usb stick. I have no problem with any of the Amiga flavors of OS or hardware and truly do wish them all success. I just don't feel the need to make false and presumed statements about the ones I don't use, you clearly do.
If you find the cost of the X1000 too much or it doesn't interest you, why bother commenting? This is (or at least was) a news item thread to pass on a progress report to those who are interested. I don't understand why you would even bother reading a thread about something your not interested in, unless of course you are interested and in denial. If your not in denial then I must take it that your genuinely not interested in the X1000. This is what you would have us believe yes? Of course that's the case, no interest at all, you've made that point perfectly clear, so something else about this thread must interest you then........
....I wonder what that might be. Perhaps you just like to wind up people who are interested. Well that would make you a troll as well as a hypocrite wouldn't it. If that was the case, of course... ..I'm sure another explanation must exist, please.... .do enlighten us.
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It seems there's nothing like OS4 or X1000 related news to really bring out some people's unforgiving streaks, eh?
Personally, I hope the venture is a success. It takes a lot of effort and money to design hardware from scratch and Trevor Dick is a decent bloke.
And before I get labelled the red camp fanboy here, the same sentiments extend to MorphOS, AROS, AROS 68K, NatAmi, FPGAArcade and whatever other hardware and software projects people are working on.
I find it such a pity people still have to be so monotonously partisan after all these years. Really, sometimes sitting on the fence is the best way. You get to see both fields and don't have to worry about standing in any cow pats :lol:
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It's laughable.....if you disagree with the X1000 fanboys, they immediately label you a troll....no facts, nothing objective......just a lot of BS about how they love the X1000 and that it's so wonderful and that we're not giving Hyperion and AEON a chance......oh please....
And I'm so hurt to be on dreamcast270mhz's ignore list.....NOT.
You've missed the point haven't you. Either this news item is of interest to you (hence, read thread) or it is not (do not read the thread). To read the thread AND comment on it in a negative way, whist claiming no interest at all in the subject (in this case the X1000) clearly makes you a troll. How the hell can you not see that.
Ah, of course you can, you would have to be an idiot not to, and I presume your not an idiot so you must be a troll.
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Your right I made assumptions about how much it will crash based on my own personal experience with amigaone hardware and os4 crashing alot. If it crashed so much on hardware thats been around for so long, I have no confidence in it running any better on brand new hardware.
I can wish them the best but still have an opinion. All you AOS fanboys are funny. I'm stating facts when I say 3.4ghz intel chip smokes a 2ghz powerpc chip in any test or benchmark you can throw at it. Try it, I HAVE and I know I'm right.
I'm stating facts when I say you can buy a 3.4ghz intel pc for 50 bucks on ebay that smokes any 2ghz powerpc based system that costs ALOT more, especially when you put a 50$ system against a 2500$ x1000.
You can argue anything you like, but you can not dispute these facts. They are inconvienant facts if you are a fan boy, but they are facts still.
I know why some amiga people believe cpu speed is not the end all determiner of a systems speed/usefulness its because of classic amigas with their tightly integrated hardware/software and custom chips. I remember myself my amiga 500 with stock 8mhz 68000 running rings around 486 computers of the time. Unfortunately, **** just isn't like that anymore. The custom chips are gone, Tight hardware/software integration and talking directly to the hardware is gone too so CPU speed really is the most important thing now.
Steven
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Well first of all, what a ridiculous assumption you made. The OS may still be OS4 but the hardware is made by a totally different company. Your assumption is like saying "Vista doesn't work on my Advent PC so I don't see why it would work on my Dell PC". A clearly insane statement.
As for wishing them the best and having an opinion, fine, just be more wary of stating opinion as fact or you'll get people like me jumping all over your comments.
For the record, I'm not an AOS fanboy, I've stated many times that I have interest in all Amiga flavors (including Aros) and I'm most definitely not "funny", I consider "funny" as a personal insult, I'm British dammit, we don't do "funny"!
Now about the speed thing...... er...what exactly are you doing on Amiga that requires such speed? The simple fact of the matter is that many new computers (and I include ipad, netbooks and all) are not particularly fast. Most computing just doesn't need a top speed CPU. Gaming and 3d rendering has traditionally been the drive for faster CPUs in home systems but even this now falls to dedicated GPUs. Stop banging the same old drum, it not as meaningful as your making out.
Don't misunderstand me on this, I don't agree with all that Hyperion has done but I'm not in the position they are. I have my own opinion on what I would like to see on an NG Amiga, (it's not x86 either),but this thread however, is not the place to discuss it.
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Every day is more near the X1000, first the new DvPlayer version now the Update3. Very near.
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Your right I made assumptions about how much it will crash based on my own personal experience with amigaone hardware and os4 crashing alot. If it crashed so much on hardware thats been around for so long, I have no confidence in it running any better on brand new hardware.
I can wish them the best but still have an opinion. All you AOS fanboys are funny. I'm stating facts when I say 3.4ghz intel chip smokes a 2ghz powerpc chip in any test or benchmark you can throw at it. Try it, I HAVE and I know I'm right.
I'm stating facts when I say you can buy a 3.4ghz intel pc for 50 bucks on ebay that smokes any 2ghz powerpc based system that costs ALOT more, especially when you put a 50$ system against a 2500$ x1000.
You can argue anything you like, but you can not dispute these facts. They are inconvienant facts if you are a fan boy, but they are facts still.
I know why some amiga people believe cpu speed is not the end all determiner of a systems speed/usefulness its because of classic amigas with their tightly integrated hardware/software and custom chips. I remember myself my amiga 500 with stock 8mhz 68000 running rings around 486 computers of the time. Unfortunately, **** just isn't like that anymore. The custom chips are gone, Tight hardware/software integration and talking directly to the hardware is gone too so CPU speed really is the most important thing now.
Steven
Here's another fact for you Steven. Your $50 PC doesn't run OS4.
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Your right and I don't care that it dosn't. AROS is fine for me.
Steven
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Here's another fact for you Steven. Your $50 PC doesn't run OS4.
Another advantage!
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Most computing just doesn't need a top speed CPU.
I agree. I would happily use MorphOS on this one (http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7675&forum=3&start=164) (the first one of course, not the second! ;))
On par with a Sam440. And this $129 complete system is absolutely worth its price. Add to those benchmarks the fact that it has a NEON SIMD (think Altivec) and various on-chip HW accelerators to speed up things like media encoding/decoding, and that Floating Point is actually handled by HW soon (an ARM Linux limitation until recently).
This proves that low performing Sam/EfikaMX class HW doesn't have to be expensive, yet it will "fly" with an Amigaoid OS. Looking forward to see AROS on that one (http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14971#14969). :)
what exactly are you doing on Amiga that requires such speed?
Heavy media files (movies) comes to mind. But the first option in the comparison above will handle this with the apropriate drivers. And then at least I have 99% of my needs covered, by a $129, low performance computer! :)
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No doubt the EfikaMX is a great board, I would love one, maybe I'll buy one. I would love to see MorphOS and Aros both running on the SAM and X1000 too, choice is a good thing.
Now however you've gone and forced me to reveal a little about what I think Hyperion should have done. That's have a good long chat with Genesi.....
...oh well, such is life.
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No doubt the EfikaMX is a great board, I would love one, maybe I'll buy one. I would love to see MorphOS and Aros both running on the SAM and X1000 too, choice is a good thing.
Now however you've gone and forced me to reveal a little about what I think Hyperion should have done. That's have a good long chat with Genesi.....
...oh well, such is life.
ARM has its brightest future ahead.
PPC left its behind.
:)
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If you exclude games consoles, and you shouldn't as they are very popular computer platforms. Granted they are very optimized for a specific purpose but mass chip sales still drives down prices whatever box they come in, console or otherwise. PowerPC is far from dead.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajlwalker (http://www.amiga.org/forums/web/buttons/viewpost.gif) (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=656901#post656901)
Here's another fact for you Steven. Your $50 PC doesn't run OS4.
Another advantage!
__________________
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::roflmao:
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If you exclude games consoles, and you shouldn't as they are very popular computer platforms. Granted they are very optimized for a specific purpose but mass chip sales still drives down prices whatever box they come in, console or otherwise. PowerPC is far from dead.
Yes, I didn't mean that the PPC per se is dead, only its use in the kind of applications that's interesting to us. Apple were the last desktop and laptop manufacturer, and since Apple left, the whole PPC business changed focus. The future for PPC is in various embedded applications now, routers, printer servers, automotive, etc (and by all means, game consoles).
Already at this moment, ARM chips (Cortex A9) are *on par* with PPC G4 performance wise, and upcoming Cortex A15 will introduce a whole new level of performance and features, making it suitable for servers/desktops etc. And in a few years from now, nVidia will release their own ARM CPU's, what they themselves call "x86 killers", especially targeted towards high-end desktop, workstation and server markets. More manufacturers are bound to follow, that's the beauty of ARM's license based business model. And even Microsoft is on the train, and will release Windows 8 for ARM! So ARM definitely has its future ahead of it! :)
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The future of arm indeed looks bright. I think nvidia just may be right about it being an intel killer, especially if the price versus performance issue is what it appears it will be.
Would be nice to see a 20 or 30 core or processor based arm desktop. Considering the prices this will be likely in less time than you think.
Steven
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Would be nice to see a 20 or 30 core or processor based arm desktop.
You do know that more cores doesnt make anything go faster? And the more cores you add, the more "administrative" overhead there will be for the OS.
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You do know that more cores doesnt make anything go faster? And the more cores you add, the more "administrative" overhead there will be for the OS.
It depends on what OS you are running. BeOS/Haiku perform noticeably better the more CPU cores one has, due to the pervasive multi-threading throughout the entire OS.
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@haywirepc
If you want x86 or ARM, you're free to use AROS. OS4 and MOS are just fine as they are on PowerPC, and nothing is going to change that for the present.
I personally dislike the fact that people here feel the need to go to the red or the blue and change them. AROS does what you want, just leave blue and red alone. In the case of Blue, we have a defined roadmap for the present and we arent going to change that. Red, they seem to be more than a little turbid in terms of where to go, but there are sales for them. So, AROS, either buy the needed hardware to run MOS or OS4 or you're free to use what you want on AROS.
Also, there is the Megahertz myth. All things considered, the megahertz have little to do with speed. I can watch 720p video on My G4 mac, it runs circles on computers owned by my computer consultant friend, including his brand new machine he built.
My old AMD Turion MT-34 1.8Ghz laptop can play 720p WMV-HD i.e. Step_Into_Liquid.wmv test file goes beyond 720p.
At a given clockspeed and general application benchmarks, Intel Core 2 Duo (Solo mode) beats your PowerPC G4 type CPUs, let alone Intel's Core I series Nehalem and Sandybridge type CPU cores.
My AMD C-50 APU (1.0Ghz dual core bobcat+Radeon HD 6250M (SIMD Array)) based Acer Iconia W500 tablet plays 1080p H.264 Blu-Rays just fine.
On the Wintel PC and for CPU base decode, use CoreCodec or disable DXVA (check box in Cyberlink's H.264 codecs) or use broken/non-standard H.264 videos i.e. my tablet plays them just fine.
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It's great to see a British chip company doing so well and just for the record, I have to agree that ARM is the way to go. If I could have it all my own way I would make Natami an official product whilst developing an OS4 ARM system and an add-in ARM CPU board for the Natami too. This would give the best of "classic/os3.9" with Natami followed by ARM OS4 with the add-in Natami ARM card bridging the two platforms.
This would also bridge nicely between a true hobby platform with Natami and something truly commercial with a new ARM based machine.
....but they didn't ask me. :(
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Yes, I didn't mean that the PPC per se is dead, only its use in the kind of applications that's interesting to us. Apple were the last desktop and laptop manufacturer, and since Apple left, the whole PPC business changed focus. The future for PPC is in various embedded applications now, routers, printer servers, automotive, etc (and by all means, game consoles).
Already at this moment, ARM chips (Cortex A9) are *on par* with PPC G4 performance wise, and upcoming Cortex A15 will introduce a whole new level of performance and features, making it suitable for servers/desktops etc. And in a few years from now, nVidia will release their own ARM CPU's, what they themselves call "x86 killers", especially targeted towards high-end desktop, workstation and server markets. More manufacturers are bound to follow, that's the beauty of ARM's license based business model. And even Microsoft is on the train, and will release Windows 8 for ARM! So ARM definitely has its future ahead of it! :)
NVIDIA hasn't proven themselves to be "fat" OOO CPU designers and NVIDIA has to be carefull with OOO CPU patents...
On core vs core, Cortex A9 is dual instruction issue per cycle lite OOO CPU that implements 64 bit SIMD hardware i.e. like SSE before Intel Core 2, ARM's Neon ISA is 128bits wide while the hardware is 64bits.. G4 implements 128bit SIMD hardware. The one of the main problem with old G4 is with it's slow FSB.
PS; K8 Athlon implements 128bit FADD SSE1 in hardware. AMD Bulldozer implements FMA4 which is superior to ARM/PPC's FMA3 format.
AMD Bobcat and Bulldozer cores implements pointer based register rename trick i.e. similar to Cortex A9's register renaming trick.
Note that AMD's GCN (GPU Core Next, Radeon HD 7000 series) includes AMD64/X86-64 IP i.e. AMD is building it's own X86-64 based Larrabee.
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Yes, I didn't mean that the PPC per se is dead, only its use in the kind of applications that's interesting to us. Apple were the last desktop and laptop manufacturer, and since Apple left, the whole PPC business changed focus. The future for PPC is in various embedded applications now, routers, printer servers, automotive, etc (and by all means, game consoles).
Eh, these things tend to move in cycles. ARM, for instance, was Acorn's desktop architecture, then Acorn's desktop line died off and it found its bread and butter in embedded applications for many years, then it started popping up in handheld devices (GBA, iPhone and now just about every smartphone,) and all of a sudden it's popular again and possibly on the verge of breaking back into the (low-end) desktop market. PPC has already gone from desktop to embedded to game consoles, who's to say it won't make a similar comeback?
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It depends on what OS you are running.
Of course.
BeOS/Haiku perform noticeably better the more CPU cores one has, due to the pervasive multi-threading throughout the entire OS.
But is the software used by the user also equally multi-threaded? And how does Haiku perform on a 32 core system vs. a 16 core system? It's not unheard of that systems become slower at a certain number of cores, simply because the administrative overhead gets too much.
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And how does Haiku perform on a 32 core system vs. a 16 core system? It's not unheard of that systems become slower at a certain number of cores, simply because the administrative overhead gets too much.
32? 16? John Paul II on a pogo stick, where are you buying your hardware!? Last I checked consumer CPUs generally have yet to break 8 unless you get into high-end workstation/server chips... :D
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Eh, these things tend to move in cycles. ARM, for instance, was Acorn's desktop architecture, then Acorn's desktop line died off and it found its bread and butter in embedded applications for many years, then it started popping up in handheld devices (GBA, iPhone and now just about every smartphone,) and all of a sudden it's popular again and possibly on the verge of breaking back into the (low-end) desktop market. PPC has already gone from desktop to embedded to game consoles, who's to say it won't make a similar comeback?
It's not "a cycle thing".
ARM's design allow low power consumption and cool computing. That was an enabler for mobile devices, an area which has had a tremendous growth. That, coupled with ARM's license based business model that allows companies to combine ARM's core design with other controllers to make their own CPU chips, is what really makes the opportunity. Look at Apple (with iPhone and iPad - all ARM!) and the Tegra based devices (and most other mobile devices as well). The future ARM designs scales heavily upwards in performance, while still being low Watt and low temp, and nVidia (and probably others as well) will really create a big bang when they release the really high performance stuff. Rumors has it that Apple has an ARM based laptop coming soon. Windows 8 (and Office, etc) will be ARM. It will boom, it will cover everything to the tiniest, most ultra mobile device, up to the fattest workstation and servers, and it will be the same ISA.
http://blogs.nvidia.com/2011/01/project-denver-processor-to-usher-in-new-era-of-computing/
nVidia: "Denver frees PCs, workstations and servers from the hegemony and inefficiency of the x86 architecture. For several years, makers of high-end computing platforms have had no choice about instruction-set architecture. The only option was the x86 instruction set with variable-length instructions, a small register set, and other features that interfered with modern compiler optimizations, required a larger area for instruction decoding, and substantially reduced energy efficiency.
Denver provides a choice. System builders can now choose a high-performance processor based on a RISC instruction set with modern features such as fixed-width instructions, predication, and a large general register file. These features enable advanced compiler techniques and simplify implementation, ultimately leading to higher performance and a more energy-efficient processor.
Microsoft’s announcement (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2011/jan11/01-05SOCsupport.mspx) that it is bringing Windows to ultra-low power processors like ARM-based CPUs provides the final ingredient needed to enable ARM-based PCs based on Denver. Along with software stacks based on Android, Symbian, and iOS, Windows for ultra-low power processors demonstrates the huge momentum behind low-power solutions that will ultimately propel the ARM architecture to dominance."
But that's "Denver", a future thing - But do you want to see "Windows 8" (development version of Windows) running on *current* ARM-technology?
Well, Fast Forward to 1.10:
[youtube]lRPh4kJpeSA[/youtube]
I'm sorry, but I don't see remotely the same momentum happening on the PPC platform.
Apple was the last one who left. Now it's all about routers and automotive. Which is a huge market as well, but hardly very interesting to us...
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I'm sorry, but I don't see remotely the same momentum happening on the PPC platform.
Of course you don't see it, it isn't happening at the moment. And I'm not saying it will, either - I'm just saying, don't rule out the possibility. The architecture is still around and has been gaining traction in the console market since the release of the PS2 (going from one console to total market dominance in the space of a single generation.) It may make a comeback or it may not, but I think it's still within the realm of possibility. ARM is the Next Big Thing at the moment, but so was multi-core x86 before it, and back in the mists of time (a.k.a. the mid-'90s,) so was PPC. Things change, often in ways you wouldn't expect.
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My Mac Pro has 12.
32? 16? John Paul II on a pogo stick, where are you buying your hardware!? Last I checked consumer CPUs generally have yet to break 8 unless you get into high-end workstation/server chips... :D
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My Amiga boot's up in a a few seconds and that's what I like about it although I don't have many complex programs running on it. I think any OS will take time to boot up but maybe they could just have it on the chip rather than software? OS 4.1 still takes less time than Window XP, so at a first glance it looks ok :)
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My Mac Pro has 12.
Hmm, okay. Still a far cry from 32, though.
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At my workplace, we have several quad 6-core processor servers. That's 24 cores per box...
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It's not unheard of that systems become slower at a certain number of cores, simply because the administrative overhead gets too much.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/AmdahlsLaw.svg)
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The ebb and flow of the popularity of various processor architectures has more to do with IP licensing and business processes than their technical details.
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@Ferrellsl
If you feel so determined to prove a point go to the AROS sites
Please don't export your problems.
they'll be more than happy to house another troll
Is there a reason to think this way ?
greets,
Staf.
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@haywirepc
AROS does what you want, just leave blue and red alone.
In my mind (as an AROS developer) you can only be a true AROS fan if you act as you say. I don't like it one jota that haywirepc wants to show superiority by his choice for AROS. I work on AROS to broaden the Amiga universe not to catch flies (as we say in Flanders) from the blue, the red or the classic camp. I would like if more people were like that.
greets,
Staf.
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Waching this video i need a x1000 now!
Just joking.
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@Fats
Starting out, I tried to ask some people on both the AROS forums and mailing lists about some stuff. They were rude, demeaning and acted like I was an idiot, when I was just ignorant of AROS. A few AROS users on here also seem to be quite above other members, preaching that the rest of us are stupid and demeaning us.
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They were rude, demeaning and acted like I was an idiot, when I was just ignorant of AROS. A few AROS users on here also seem to be quite above other members, preaching that the rest of us are stupid and demeaning us.
probably because you posted with a stupid line in your signature like "MorphOS, OS4 and Classic Amiga systems are the only ones who are real 'Amigas', not that joke AROS or Amiga Forever. " ?
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This was before I even had any predjudice towards them. I went to AROS first, and all I wanted was for them to answer some simple, concise questions. I eventually found out on my own but by that time AROS had no appeal for me, I had already gotten an A1200 and gotten into MorphOS and Amithlon.
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This was before I even had any predjudice towards them. I went to AROS first, and all I wanted was for them to answer some simple, concise questions. I eventually found out on my own but by that time AROS had no appeal for me, I had already gotten an A1200 and gotten into MorphOS and Amithlon.
the fact you feel the need for such a signature points to the issue being you though.
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Company posts update.....people moan about it....company says "screw this, let's go somewhere where we will be appreciated"... ...people moan about lack of companies doing anything with the Amiga....hmmm.....
So just for the record:
Thanks Trevor, nice to see some work being done. Keep it up, some of us appreciate your effort and continued support for the Amiga platform.
Amen! As much as I will never buy one over £500 myself I applaud their efforts. It's either new stuff like this or fake Amigas AKA x86 PCs + Amiga stickers slapped on them.
When finished and debugged on CPU grunt it will flatten little used Apple machines or SAM.
Progress for new more powerful OS4 compatible hardware is painful, this is not DELL or Microsoft R&D budgets.
When finished it could technically have Battlefield 2 conversion running @ 1080p in theory.......something no other OS4/MOS machine today can do.
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the fact you feel the need for such a signature points to the issue being you though.
He's damned right about clowntoo (Cloanto) though :roflmao:
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@Fats
Starting out, I tried to ask some people on both the AROS forums and mailing lists about some stuff. They were rude, demeaning and acted like I was an idiot, when I was just ignorant of AROS.
Any references ?
Staf.
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I think the aros folks are usually pretty helpful at aros-exec.org. I'm sorry if you had a bad experience. I don't see anyone demeaning anyone there.
You seem pretty knowledgeable about amithlon and other amiga things. I'm sure the aros community would like to have another supporter.
you can always ask questions here or over at aros-exec.org.
Steven
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Your right and I don't care that it dosn't. AROS is fine for me.
Steven
Yes, you have made that quite clear. No need to state it again.
For anyone who wants to use OS4 though, your $50 PC is useless. FACT.
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LMAO, that's a fair comment. Maybe it is due to debugging, I'm sure time will tell, serial debugging is enabled on the video.
It's a shame more people don't shout at Microsoft about boot times.
Microsoft have consistently improved boot times with XP, Vista & 7.
With so much software available that wants to run at startup, they get quite a bad reputation. Windows isn't AmigaOS quick, but it's pretty close coming out of hibernate to turning my a1200 on from scratch. I don't reboot windows that often, so the time is largely irrelevant.
Windows 8 looks pretty good, although I guess it hasn't had much software installed on it yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxOFdG_SXJY
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Amen! As much as I will never buy one over £500 myself I applaud their efforts. It's either new stuff like this or fake Amigas AKA x86 PCs + Amiga stickers slapped on them.
When finished and debugged on CPU grunt it will flatten little used Apple machines or SAM.
Progress for new more powerful OS4 compatible hardware is painful, this is not DELL or Microsoft R&D budgets.
When finished it could technically have Battlefield 2 conversion running @ 1080p in theory.......something no other OS4/MOS machine today can do.
As a big fan of MorphOS2.x and someone who constantly watches the progress of OS4, I look forward to seeing actual test results of OS4 on the X1000 which will prove (or fail to prove) your assertion that it will "flatten little used Apple machines".
If it succeeds in proving your assertion, I will applaud Trevor and his monumental achievement for creating something that runs OS4 faster than currently supported G4 Mac hardware can run MorphOS2.x. If it fails to meet your expectations, but still gets released for sale to the public, and not only to a handful of beta testers, I will still applaud Trevor for his efforts to fulfill his personal dream.
My suggestion is to not get your expectations too high for the X1000, so you won't be disappointed if it fails to meet all of those expectations, and only ends up being the best available option to run OS4 at the time it is released.
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With so much software available that wants to run at startup, they get quite a bad reputation.
Yeah, that's part of it. My XP netbook is pretty quick to boot to be honest but my Vista machine (a 4800X2) is a bit of a slug, I should spend some time trimming out the startup I guess. I would use hibernate more as it's far quicker but I live in a place that suffers way too much power fluctuation from the grid to make hibernation reliable, safer to shutdown. :(
My fault for living out in the sticks. I'll take a look at the Windows 8 link in a mo and see how it's shaping up.
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zylsea
Your funny today!
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The ebb and flow of the popularity of various processor architectures has more to do with IP licensing and business processes than their technical details.
Well put, cash talks more than any form of logic or common sense any day.
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As a big fan of MorphOS2.x and someone who constantly watches the progress of OS4, I look forward to seeing actual test results of OS4 on the X1000 which will prove (or fail to prove) your assertion that it will "flatten little used Apple machines".
Dave you are right here. The thing to remember is it doesnt matter how fast the cpu or board is on a white paper.. it comes down to development and drivers. X1000 is a long way off from crushing Morphos 2.x on a PMAC
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The ebb and flow of the popularity of various processor architectures has more to do with IP licensing and business processes than their technical details.
Very true, but I wasn't trying to make a point about technical superiority, just that the industry can take surprising turns with little warning every now and again. That's as true from the business end of things as it is from the technical end. (Remember, the only reason the Playstation came into existence was because Nintendo screwed over Sony on a CD-based SNES addon project. And look where that's gone.)
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OS4 on X1000 crushing or not crushing MorphOS on whatever is about as relevant as mini morris crushing or not crushing a 2CV. OMG, a car analogy, oh no!
My point is, both systems have much more important shortcomings that should be dealt with.
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It says the Video is private. Guess I won't watch it then?
News from TrevorDick of A-Eon
Chris Follett, AmigaKit's lead technician, has produced a quick video of the AmigaOne X1000 booting to AmigaOS4.1 Update 3. Chris apologized for the quality, but he only had time to run off a quick video in between setting up and testing Nemo 2.1 motherboards. He has promised to produce another video showing AmigaOS4 running various demos when he has more time.
AmigaOS4.1 Update 3 booting on AmigaOne X1000 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&v=c1a_8SUTi6k)
Trevor Dickinson
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X1000 is a long way off from crushing Morphos 2.x on a PMAC
At $3000, it never will. As simple as that.
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It says the Video is private. Guess I won't watch it then?
First they disabled comments when people happened to mention it was slow. I guess they realized that releasing a video that emphasized how slow the X1000 is wasn't casting it in the best light, but still trying to hide it now is pretty pointless. But then that is the Hyperion & Co. way, to hide things.