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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: legion on November 20, 2002, 05:10:42 PM
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Ok. I'm going to place my order for my A1 in the next few weeks here, and my question to you all is what do you think is the best value? Should I order the SE, and save the money? Should I order the XE with G3 because of CPU interchangeability, and save a little by not ordering with a G4, or should I go all out and just order the G4 board? Do you think that any apps will actually use Altivec in the next year? 2 years? I've been debating this, and it seems that the XE G3 seems the most attractive. If I want to swap with a G4 later I can, and it will offer crushing performance right away with current PPC apps.
Thoughts?
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I went for the XE-G4. But having said that, unless you are planning on doing some heavy number crunching (and until apps start to use Altivec) a G3 @ 600MHz should suit most poeple. It will allow you to surf the net with easy, make up letters and spreadsheets and should be more then powerful enough (so i am lead to belive) to play DVDs with.
The actual reason I went for the G4 is soley because I never couold afford an A4000 when they first came out, although I wanted the "top of the line" Amiga I had to settle for the A1200. Now I can afford it and want to have the TOTL AmigaONE that I wanted as a teenager.
I have realised my dream as it were ;-)
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If remember correctly, it is even possible that 600MHz G3 may do some things faster than 800MHz G4 because of more cache(?). The true power of G4 isn't shown until Altivec is supported. Then it is quite clear to choose G4.
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I was going to order my A1 XE(G4) mobo today.
I emailed eyetech with some questions but havn't got a responce yet.
The Questions I want answered before I buy are.
1. What Memory is recommended ?
2. Does the Mobo come with a LinuxPPC CD Distro ?
....Just a £600 paperweight otherwise until OS4.
3. Does the mobo come with all leads i mean AMR Header, ATX blanking plate, usb header leads, floppy ide etc. decent manual. Like PC mobo's
I mean whats the point of having on board modem audio usb etc. if they aint gonna ship an AMR / usb header with it.
4. Do you need a CPU Fan ?
I have this horrible feeling your gonna get a mobo in a dull brown cardboard box with a cpu and a bad photocopy on a sheet of A4 paper, that will be your lot.
5. Can I use USB mice / keyboards or only when OS4 is finished. Is it PS2 only until then ?
6. What PCI / AGP cards are supported ?
I dont feel you can realy buy it until these questions are answered. :-)
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I'm getting the XE-G4 ... mainly because of the changeable CPU. Figured as long as I'm spending money, might as well get the top of the line.
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I'm going for the XE-G4! Gimme gimme!
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JurassicCamper:
VERY good points. Keep me posted on their response, will you?
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I am opting for an Amiga-XE motherboard, as I would like to do performance tests between various software titles running with different specced CPUs.
But as a user I would probably have opted for a G4, the AmigaOne is afterall the first new Amiga motherboard in a decade, no need to get cheap about it. :-D
I am sure there will be Altivec versions of software titles pretty soon. If you look at classic Amiga software and all the different CPU optimised versions out there, I have no reason to think this will not be the case for AmigaOS4 software as well.
@ quenthal
In general a 800 Mhz G4 is significantly faster than a 600 Mhz G3, even without software utilizing Altivec.
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I am sure there will be Altivec versions of software titles pretty soon. If you look at classic Amiga software and all the different CPU optimised versions out there, I have no reason to think this will not be the case for AmigaOS4 software as well.
I too think this will happen... I'll get G4 version asap..
@ quenthal
A 800 Mhz G4 is significantly faster than a 600 Mhz G3, even without software utilizing Altivec.
Well, that's it - G4 it is! :-D
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It probably won't be until next year that I can afford a motherboard (by then AmigaDOS4 will probably be out). Considering the questionable nature of the whole thing, I plan to keep expenditures to a minimum. So I would get the XE/G3. My PC is a real powerhouse and I plan to use it for the heavy-duty stuff for the foreseeable future.
I haven't upgraded for years. I have an Amiga 2000 with AmigaDOS 2.1, and haven't put any money into it since. This seems like a good time to upgrade to the latest hardware and operating system, even thought it's just a big hardware toy.
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In general a 800 Mhz G4 is significantly faster than a 600 Mhz G3, even without software utilizing Altivec.
Maybe in general, but it DOES depend on "what G3?". The 700MHz 750FX is faster than the 800MHz G4. Really. But it's not gonna be shipping until January, so if you want it before christmas, the G4 is your friend.
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I ordered the AmigaOne XE G4 800 about a week ago! I figured same as other people, could never afford A4000 when I was younger and want TOTL.
Besides, whats £200 between processors? :-)
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@ olegil
According to benchmark tests performed on Mac hardware the G3/G4's integer performances (does not utilize Altivec) is basically the same at similar clock speeds.
However the floating point performance is roughly 30% better at the same clock speeds for the G4. (And of course there are big performance gains for Altivec optimised software.)
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/me trying to look like Johnny Cockran:
"if you buy the top,
you won't have to swap."
Seiously, although your logic does seem fine, in the end it adds a few hundred dollars to the price of your machine. Go G4!
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@JurassicCamper
4. Do you need a CPU Fan ?
Yes, in a word! ;-)
But if you want answeres email/phone Eyetech, I am sure they will be happy to put your fears to rest
6. What PCI / AGP cards are supported ?
I asked Hyperion and was told to go for the ATI Radeon, so i now have a 7500 :-)
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Did any of these test use a 750FX?
Edit:
The reason I'm asking is that the 750FX is rumoured to be at least 30% faster than the 750CXe on the same frequency. But if the 7451 is also 30% faster, it's gonna boil down to which has higher frequency. And the G4@800MHz beats the G3@700. Even though I think the G3 will be easier to overclock.
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Well, ultimately, I want to get the AmigaOne-XE/G4/800 but if money is too tight when it hits (close to Christmas) then I may just have to wait a bit or go for the lesser SE/600 and deal with it for awhile.
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I think that G4 apps will come out pretty soon, because Exec SG allows it, and in the XE version the price difference between the g3 & the g4 is so small than a G4 seems to me like a much better option.
We are switching to ppcs because we need raw power, the Altivec unit will allow us to do number crunching way better than integer units... that means for example creating divx way faster than using integer/floating point instructions...
the 750FX may be faster with some operations, but I think that in the long run a G4 will be much better.
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@JurassicCamper
1. REGISTERED !!! SD_RAM that was approved/tested as the
articia is very picky. Just buy it at the same place as the board.
2. ???????
3. AMR: NO !! ATX-plate ??? USB: wasn't that in the ATX-back-plate ?
4. Don't know.
5. Sorry but why anybody would want to use USB when he has ps/ is
beyound my understanding. Linux might work with USB-mice, maybe even
the "BIOS", but I really would adviise you on ps/2 here.
6. not many ;-)
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PowerBook Titanium 1Ghz/1GB/Combo...
It's in Indianapolis right now....oh the agony of FedEx ground...
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@ olegil
Floating point performance should still be better for the G4, even with a G3 750FX at a much higher clock rate. Some official data from Motorola and IBM for some rough comparison:
------CPU----------------------------Spec95 (int)-Spec95 (fp)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
G3 750FX @ 900 MHz--------------39.9 ---------21.1-------
G4 7451 @ 733 MHz----------------32.1 ---------23.9-------
The integer performance difference is about what you would expect, based on the higher G3 clock rate. Yet still the G4 is about 12% faster with regard to floating point performance.
My conclusion, even when taking out of account the very cool Velocity Engine, the G4 is a slightly better overall performing CPU than a G3 at the same clock rate.
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I am planning on ordering up the 800Mhz G4 system within the next few days. I have always loved my Amigas and am thrilled to find out something new is finallly being released.
I have a few questions. I have an A1200 and would want to connect it to the AmigaOne board for backwards compatibility through the PCI bridge. What kind of a system case do you all recommend for this, what size power supply and is the PCI bridge card available yet?
Thanks..
Mike
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G4 it WILL be mine ...oh yes it will be mine ;-)
I also could not afford the A4000 040 (got A1200)
will have dream G4XE plus ATI 7500 Mawwhahahah :-D
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Eyetech terminated their contract with Escena.
This PCI bridge card has been discussed on the Amiga1 and OS4 mailing lists.
The consensus is that it is a Escena only project. They may be developing one but they are uncontactable.
If any of our German friends would like to pop down to see them and get some info it would be nice.
They are located in Braunschweig and there is a map on their website.
www.escena.de
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I can't remember where I read it now, but somewhere, Hyperion stated that the on-board audio chip is rather limited and is not supported. A separate sound card (SB Live! is recommended) is required. Support for the SB Live! is supplied with AOS4.
So the AMR is of no use to you unless you DIY.
On the subject of G3 Vs G4, the Motorola site has a pdf that tries to convince you to throw out your G3 and plug in a G4. It claims that the sustained data transfer rate of a G4 is about 2.5x the speed of a G3, using a 100 or 133 MHz bus. It achieves this by more intelligent cache controls.
tony
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tonyw wrote:
I can't remember where I read it now, but somewhere, Hyperion stated that the on-board audio chip is rather limited and is not supported. A separate sound card (SB Live! is recommended) is required. Support for the SB Live! is supplied with AOS4.
I thought Hyperion said that the on-board Audio shouldn't be took difficult to support :-? Of course, without an AMR card, supporting it would be useless :-)
Cheers,
J
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AMR has to be the most stupid thing on a mainboard in a long time. At best OS4 will totally ignore it.
Edit:
I will probably get the smaller AOne simply for monetary reasons :-(
Already bought a really nice Yeong Yang Cube but ram & graphics & sound card will have to wait till AOne is actually released and it is clear how the coupon will be adressed.
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This is a tough one. What I really want is a quiet little system I can use to play DVD, MP3, some retro games, surf the web and to play with O/S 4.0.
I'm tempted to try and create a little TV on Demand type device (I wonder if Randeon AIW will (ever) be supported soon?) [What I really want is support for a Digital Tuner Card, now we have Freeview over in the UK]
So if a G3/600MHz is powerful enough for this, then the cooler chip is... well cool! But I want to be able to watch a DVD, record a TV Channel, and surf the web at the same time (maybe I should wait for dual CPU?)
Does anyone know if Eyetech are still doing there trade in offer? 'cos I really want to get my hands on my new 'miggy ASAP, and if I find at a later date that the SE is not upto my requirements, or that a lot of software utilises AltiVec, I can swap it for an XE
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Been looking round trying to find the best prices for OS4 compatible bits for my G4 mobo when i get it.
www.pcnextday.co.uk
All prices include VAT
ATI 8500 £66
Sound blaster live £25
PC133 SDRAM 512MB £41
The rest is coming out of my Current Miggy.
:-P :-P :-P :-P
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JurassicCamper wrote:
I was going to order my A1 XE(G4) mobo today.
I emailed eyetech with some questions but havn't got a responce yet.
I asked a question as well and the response I got was less than professional. They really need to change their attitude if they hope to appeal to the mainstream market.
It wasn't worded like "Thank you for your enquiry" more like "What are you asking that for?". In fact it was almost like they were trying to make me feel stupid for asking the question. As far as I'm concerned the only stupid question is one that isn't asked.
I have to admit it did put me off buying from them a little bit.
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You rich buggers talking about the G3s the G4s how about lending me some cash for my G4`s Some of us are now broke you know... :-D :-o ;-) 8-)
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"You rich buggers talking about the G3s the G4s how about lending me some cash for my G4`s Some of us are now broke you know..."
Yes, donate every spare coin to Desolators AmigaOne fund. :-D
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I cant afford anything!!
Donations welcome :-( :-(
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1. What Memory is recommended ?
Registered SDRAM (PC133)
2. Does the Mobo come with a LinuxPPC CD Distro ?
Yes, 1 or 2 (depending on how much they can squeeze on a cd) CD's containing SuSE Linux
3. Does the mobo come with all leads i mean AMR Header, ATX blanking plate, usb header leads, floppy ide etc. decent manual. Like PC mobo's
Don't Know
4. Do you need a CPU Fan ?
I've *heard* that you'll only need a heatsink, but don't quote me on that.
5. Can I use USB mice / keyboards or only when OS4 is finished. Is it PS2 only until then ?
USB, but don't quote me on that one either :-D
6. What PCI / AGP cards are supported ?
Not sure about this, but some form of Radeon (7500, 8500) should be ok. I'd wait for confirmation on this one.
Personally, I'm going for a G3 XE. :-D
/Regards
Stefan "Syke" Falk
www.amigaextreme.com
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My money has been sent to eyetech for amigaone g4 xe at 800mhz might as well buy the top of the range board.
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to JurassicCamper:
Here are some answers:
RAM:
1. Most definately PC133 Registered RAM, there are certain brands that will not work either, so be careful. We are bundling the RAM with the boards we're selling in Canada (to ensure everything works correctly)
Linux:
2. Yes LinuxPPC distribution.
Included leads:
3. Should be a yes - but could depend on who is suppling the case etc.
Heat:
4. Recommended Heat Sink or Heat Sink and Fan - CPU runs quite cool, a decent Heat Sink should be ok
USB Mice/Keyboards:
5. Should be able to use USB once OS4.0 is completed, but I'm not 100% sure. At least the hardware part is there, just need to add the correct drivers.
Video:
6. Looks like ATI will be the supported video card of choice.
Hopefully this answers some questions.
Justin
www.livewiresystems.ca/Amiga.html
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Well I've already ordered a G3-XE as I'm not convinced that the G4 will give enough "bang-for-the-buck" performance increase, but I figure that if I'm wrong or an even faster G4 comes out then I'll be able to upgrade my existing XE board.
I also ordered it in a nice case with 4 x 5.25" bays, 2 x 3.5" bays, front mounted USB ports and a 300w PSU.
I've been impressed by cheap, low-end ATI Radion cards in my PC's so a 7000 or 7500 Radion should be enough to keep me happy.
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Does anyone know which ATI cards will be supported? I put my order for a G4 XE this morning, and I'm considering getting a Radeon 8500LE (~$100 cheaper than the 8500 and barely noticeable performance difference).
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Darrin wrote:
Well I've already ordered a G3-XE as I'm not convinced that the G4 will give enough "bang-for-the-buck" performance increase, but I figure that if I'm wrong or an even faster G4 comes out then I'll be able to upgrade my existing XE board.
I also ordered it in a nice case with 4 x 5.25" bays, 2 x 3.5" bays, front mounted USB ports and a 300w PSU.
I've been impressed by cheap, low-end ATI Radion cards in my PC's so a 7000 or 7500 Radion should be enough to keep me happy.
Uhm, you realize the G4 is out this year with the G3 out next year, right?
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@MikeB:
39.9/900 > 32.1/733, so if both was clocked to same frequency the G3 would be faster (1%). In this case the G4 is actually clocked faster, so it wins by 13%. Still it's not 30% like you claimed ;-)
On floating point the G4 would beat the G3 by almost 40% (based on those numbers) if clocked to same frequency. Add the 14% higher frequency and we're talking almost 60% more FPU performance even before the Altivec is considered. But FPU isn't used enough these days. The Altivec is actually more useful than a good FPU. Of course, the G4 has both ;-)
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@ olegil
In this case the G4 is actually clocked faster, so it wins by 13%. Still it's not 30% like you claimed
Actually what I said in my initial posting was:
"G3/G4's integer performances (does not utilize Altivec) is basically the same at similar clock speeds." & "However the floating point performance is roughly 30% better at the same clock speeds for the G4. "
But I should note that for my initial posting I wasn't referring to the official benchmarks provided by Motorola and IBM, which I however did use for my previous posting within this thread!
The Altivec is actually more useful than a good FPU. Of course, the G4 has both
For almost all software the G4 will offer similar or higher performances as compared to a G3, at the same clock rate. And I agree software using the G4's vector unit will mostly greatly outperform similar software, running on a similar clocked G3s. :-)
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@MikeB:
Ah, soirry. It seems we need to discuss faster. I had forgot the original wording ;-)
Anyway, all I wanted was some facts to back up your statements, and you seem to have convinced me. Good job, man :-)