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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Hardware News => Topic started by: Targhan on February 24, 2003, 11:17:14 PM

Title: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Targhan on February 24, 2003, 11:17:14 PM
Mai Logic recently touted a validation from IBM's "Ready for IBM" partnership program.  When I first looked into this topic, it looked as if it were a complete farce meant to mislead customers.  Upon further inspection, the whole thing appeared that I was wrong.  Then, I contacted a third party about their validation with IBM...  The results?  It's just your standard run of the mill spin on daily business activities to make something look far more important than it really is!  Yet, it still makes one want to ask, "Is there Truth in Advertising?'

So you've decided to look into the "Truth in Advertising," have you?  Good choice, since many companies, even outside the Amiga community, look for loopholes, freebies, and other methods to mislead their customers and clients.

 In our case, we'll be examing Mai Logic's Press-Release (http://www.mai.com/news&events/PressRelease021003.html), in which they state that they EARN a validation from IBM (http://www.ibm.com).  Naturally, this "validation" is touted as if it's a "certification" of their product's quality, performance, etc.  In fact, they even used the word earn to provide the connotation that they had to work for some prestigious certification.  All of this begs the questions: What is this validation?  What did Mai Logic have to do to earn this validation?  Finally, does this validation mean anything?  

Preface: Before reading any further, you must understand that this is a stab at the wheels of the technology industry as a whole, and that Mai's Press-Release is just one example of many.  This article does not attempt to state that Mai's chipsets are anything other than what they advertise.  However, it is a direct example of how companies, including Mai, take things out of context to give their customers and/or clients an extra sense of security.

To start really digging into the topic, one must look at what the Validation is for.  According to IBM's own website:

Quote
Ready for IBM Technology solutions are designed to help OEM customers speed time to market, reduce development risk, lower development costs, and improve return on investment. The Ready for IBM Technology mark identifies solutions that have been tested and validated for compatibility with IBM Microelectronics products by the solution developers and assures that these solutions are compatible with IBM Microelectronics products.
-- IBM rfit page (http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/products/wired/alliances/rfit.html)

According to this, IBM has made this mark to verify that the product works with the IBM product listed.  In this case, it refers to the ArticiaS chip in that it works with IBM's PPC processors.  Yet, does this mean that IBM is stepping up to promote Mai Logic?  No!  On this PAGE (http://www8.software.ibm.com/solutions/isv/igssg.nsf/list/bycompanyname/86256B7C0019CE5B86256C71006DE610?OpenDocument), one can find the text (the fine print) that reads:
Quote
This solution has been validated for compatibility by the business partner and proven to operate with:   Processor: PowerPC 750FX,  Operating System:  Linux
If you are beginning to see a hole, you have been gifted with a bit of insight.  Did you note that this quote said, "validated for compatibility by the business partner?"  Does that sound like MAI validated the product themselves?  Further proof can be found on this page stating that Mai's Partnership level is "Member," from the right hand side of the page: "Partner Level:  Member," but more on the "member" level partnership later.  Then, if that's the case, how did they get this validation?


To determine what Mai Logic had to do to get this validation, I visited IBM's Partnership Registration (https://www.developer.ibm.com/member/register/registration.html) page.  The very first sentence on the page reads as follows: "Joining PartnerWorld for Developers is easy, and there is no charge!"  Free?  Would IBM provide a free certification to another chip manufacturer?  Ah!  This isn't a certification, it's a validation; we must be careful not to confuse the two!  However, we now know that Mai Logic didn't pay one penny, shilling, yen, or peso for this supposed validation!

Furthering our research, we will check the Membership (http://www.developer.ibm.com/welcome/guide2003/membership.html) page.  According to this page, there are several levels of membership, including a free level ("Member" as seen above) requiring only current contact information for IBM to display on it's pages.  The lowest level, membership, requires very little of the hopeful company.  In fact, they only need current information and a valid email address!  This is earning validation?

Finally, I present you, the reader, with this Press Release (http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/news/2002/0624_technology_mark.html) from IBM about their "Ready for IBM technology" system.  According to this document, prospective clients validate their own product!
Quote
As part of the new initiative, third-party companies that validate and test their software, design solutions or hardware to work with IBM semiconductor products can use in their marketing efforts a new logo from IBM that says "Ready for IBM Technology."
 In the end, is that all that really happened?  Did Mai Logic just fill out a web-form....?

This validation is by no means a certification; instead, it's simply a tool IBM lends out to help other developers sell IBM products.  Mai didn't EARN a thing through this validation!  Instead, a Mai Logic representative filled out paperwork via an SSL interface from IBM's web-site!  What does this validation mean?  It means that MAI[/i] claims that their Articia-S chip works with an IBM 750 series (PPC) microprocessor!  That is all this SELF-verification means, and has been grossly mis-used by MAI in their marketing efforts.  Or, could the answer be even more simple?

Since we have shown what a "membership" level partnership is for IBM's "Ready for IBM technology" system and we know that "membership" is the level of association that Mai Logic has with IBM, we once again turn our attention to Mai's Press Release (http://www.mai.com/news&events/PressRelease021003.html/url).  In the second paragraph, they quote Lisa Su, of IBM, doting on and on about how MAI's product passed all kinds of compatability tests at IBM microelectronics lab!  Now, one must ask, "Is Mai Logic lying about this?"  I doubt that, as Lisa Su is a fairly well known personality for making this sort of statement.  If MAI's products had been rigorously tested by IBM, then they certainly would NOT be at the membership level!  Would they?

If their level of association was about to increase, then the press-release would have been with-held for a more impressive press-release.  Since their quote is not referenced to any IBM page, I have to question the specifics of this quote, as it is what would be considered a "stock" statement.  No, there has to be something more.. Something that has an underlying meaning in all of this, Mai would lie would they?

You would think that all of these little emblems that a company floats around on their packages, web-pages, and advertisements would mean something.  However, in this instance, we see that this MAI LOGIC's validation means less than the "proof of purchase" text found on a cereal box so far.  Since it has been shown how Mai Logic obtained the right to display an IBM logo,  one can't help but to wonder if there is any "Truth in Advertising" left anymore....  However, as I said, there has got to be more to this story!

Accusations of this magnitude are usually unsettling to the community that we serve; however, Mai is by no means out of the normal with this sort of activity.  Thus, we addressed Wasabi (http://wasabisystems.com), another company that had went through IBM's validation process for their NetBSD implimentation.  We were delighted that they were both open and frank about the matter, and will share with you their thoughts,

Quote
To qualify for Ready for IBM status, companies need to prove that their technology is validated.  This validation generally occurs as part of a side transaction between IBM and third-party vender, e.g., a contract might exist whereby payment for a BSP is subject to validation and performance testing.  Thus, (without speaking for IBM) while IBM may or may not have a lab set up specifically for validation purposes, they are generally cognizant of the technology's validation status.

Thus, in conclusion, Mai's claim that their products work with IBM products is true, the statements they make in their press release is more of spin, and they have made a big todo about something that may have just been a requirement for them to supply some of their chips to IBM.  All in all, they took a normal days activity in the office and tried to turn it into a public "feel good" circus.

The bottom line:  Their stuff is "acceptable" for some purpose at IBM, they completed paperwork, and they made a grand statement.  In other words, the press-release isn't worth reading--it's only value would be to another large company, and they would do much more research than what has gone into this article!  

This has shaped up to be nothing more than the work of some spin-doctors on nothing of real imporance!

( Many thanks to all who've helped me research and put this article together--Targhan)
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: HyperionMP on February 24, 2003, 11:49:33 PM
Very nice "research " there but I know for a fact that within the next few months, you will be corrected in a major way.

That's the good thing of having access to inside information not available to the public.

I have seen the future of PPC and I like :).
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Loki1 on February 24, 2003, 11:58:44 PM
Whats the big deal???

Every Tom, Dick & Harry advertises that their PC hardware is "Designed for Microsoft Windows XX"
incuding the eMachine that I am typing this message on.

Just another attempt to bash MAI/A1.

Loki
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Kay on February 25, 2003, 12:03:41 AM
Hi Ben! You like teasing people, don't you? :-) I saw you hinting that there would be more OS4 news soon over at ANN. How long are you going to let us wait?

Anyway, always nice to see you posting here. Keep up the great work, it is appreciated. :-)

Kay
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: redrumloa on February 25, 2003, 12:03:52 AM
Quote
Just another attempt to bash MAI/A1.


This is called real old fashioned journalism. When is the last time you contributed something? It's easy to bash, but hard to be productive.

@Targhan

Interesting article, best I've read in a while.

@Ben

You keep telling us this for ~1 year now but we havn't seen it yet:-) I hope you are right!
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: downix on February 25, 2003, 12:27:12 AM
Quote
This is called real old fashioned journalism. When is the last time you contributed something? It's easy to bash, but hard to be productive.


I will bring up something here as well.  IBM cares entirely about the level of compatability with it's chips, that is the 750 series of PowerPC.  If Mai is prooven to have a shortcoming with the 74xx series from Motorola, what does this mean to IBM?

Flat out, nothing.  Motorola and IBM are competitors in the marketplace, and if a northbridge runs fine on an IBM chip and doesn't run well on a Motorola, IBM just sits back and laughs.

The claims by Mr. Buck were focused on 1 chip family and 1 chip family alone, Motorola's 74xx series, also called the "G4".  Even if Mai was awarded the "best to run with IBM Processors" medal of honor, we're talking two different processor families.  Where one family can flounder on a northbridge, another can soar.

Maybe this is what Bill was referring to all along?
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: zacman on February 25, 2003, 12:33:20 AM
>I have seen the future of PPC and I like :

You mean the same way you saw the future of gfx
chips when you spoke about Parhelia?

PS: It seems you saw the "future" quite late
compared to other ibm partners.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Madgun68 on February 25, 2003, 12:52:00 AM
"Maybe this is what Bill was referring to all along?"

MAYBE? Consumers shouldn't have to guess or search for insight in to the statements companies release.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 25, 2003, 12:54:36 AM
IMO running this as a "news" story is pathetic (I would have expected such a posting on ANN though). Well if the "community" can sink deeper, then why shouldn't we, seems to be the reasoning....
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Madgun68 on February 25, 2003, 12:55:27 AM
Quote
You mean the same way you saw the future of gfx
chips when you spoke about Parhelia?

PS: It seems you saw the "future" quite late
compared to other ibm partners.


Don't forget to wash all that mud off your hands when you're done.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Rodney on February 25, 2003, 12:57:44 AM
To me, it seemed that all the article was trying to do was slag off MAI and partners and make them look bad. The thing is, it is only validation, it said that in the annoucement. To me that says just exactly what your conclusion was. I dont see any missleading here, unless you at first interprtured the article incorrectly.

So as i agree with you conclusion (i though it was obvious) i dont agree with you saying that MAI as missleading. This is industry standard practice. Welcome to the big world of business....

That fact is, MAI are confident that theyire hardware is IBM compatible, so why not tell a few people about it? Its called marketing! :)

Anyway, i though the author did a fantastic job on research, its not too often you see articles on Amiga.org or any Amiga site that has obviously had that much effort put into it.

Good Job Targhan, i hope to see many more articles by you.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Paul_Gadd on February 25, 2003, 01:00:06 AM
This is not news.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Madgun68 on February 25, 2003, 01:01:14 AM
I guess I'm not the only one who wondered what the point to the article was, other than bringing out something that should be obvious to everyone living on this planet: PR statements are meant to put a positive light on a company or their products.

It might have proved to be a little more insightful had someone bothered to take the time to ask IBM themselves about their own program rather than contacting a software company (when the article is talking about what the program means to a HARDWARE developer.)
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: redrumloa on February 25, 2003, 01:03:15 AM
@MikeB & Paul_Gadd

For shame :-x
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Bodie on February 25, 2003, 01:03:41 AM
Quote
Paull_Gadd wrote:

This is not news.


I'm in total agreement with Paul on this.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: JoannaK on February 25, 2003, 01:05:28 AM
@Loki1
If you would read earlier posts (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1045938818&category=news&start=1#message46) more carefully you would notice that it was Ben Hermans who brought this apparenly minimal  'validation' as a essential  proof of Mai Articia-S flawlessness on his attempt to avoid public and independent performance tests on their systems.

@Ben
How come you are telling loudly on ann.lu that Hyperion is OS only company and you are having nothing to do with this hardware and at the same time keep commenting hw-issues here? Being busy, I see.  :-D
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Madgun68 on February 25, 2003, 01:06:06 AM
Quote
To me, it seemed that all the article was trying to do was slag off MAI and partners and make them look bad. The thing is, it is only validation, it said that in the annoucement. To me that says just exactly what your conclusion was. I dont see any missleading here, unless you at first interprtured the article incorrectly.


I can pretty much guess what brought this all about too:
Comment posted by Ben H. on Ann (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1045938818&category=news&start=1&97#message46)
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 25, 2003, 01:08:35 AM
@ redrumloa

Quote
For shame


Why would you like to lay so much shame on Amiga.org and indirectly onto the Amiga/MorphOS "community"?

This would look so incredible pathetic to almost everyone outside our "community". Of course, there are billions of rants people could create about billions of stupid topics.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Paul_Gadd on February 25, 2003, 01:12:06 AM
Looking at comments on ann by Hermans and Buck it is clearly making both look so unprofessional it is disgraceful.

You are supposed to be the heads of companies and not children fighting over a bag of sweets.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: redrumloa on February 25, 2003, 01:13:43 AM
Quote
Why would you like to lay so much shame on Amiga.org and indirectly onto the "Amiga/MoprhOS community"?


I didn't, I said you and Paul(although Paul editted his own post, thanks) I could extend that to a few more people. Your attack on Targhan is uncalled for.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 25, 2003, 01:16:51 AM
@ Redrumloa

Quote
Your attack on Targhan is uncalled for.


You must have misread something. Clearly Targhan has his own agenda to write this rant, however Amiga.org decided to post it as a news item.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: redrumloa on February 25, 2003, 01:22:48 AM
Quote
You must have misread something.


First you said

Quote
IMO running this as a "news" story is pathetic (I would have expected such a posting on ANN though). Well if the "community" can sink deeper, then why shouldn't we, seems to be the reasoning....


That's an attack.

Quote
Clearly Targhan has his own agenda to write this rant,


Why must it be an agenda? Go to any news site or turn on any tv and you will see investigative repoting. You may or may not agree with it, but it doesnt mean there is an agenda.

Quote
however Amiga.org decided to post it as a news item.


Targhan is a webmaster here and he contributes a ton of time and effort to A-Org. I don't appreciate pop shots at him just as I dont when they are directed at wayne.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 25, 2003, 01:27:56 AM
@ redrumloa

Quote
That's an attack.


That was crtiticism directed towards the person(s) who decided to run this as a news story.

Believe me this does make the "community" look even more pathetic....

This makes me really sad. Once there was a strong community of constructive people helping eachother. Today, everyone seems to screw everyone, especially when they are down and in a position to be screwed (companies as well as individuals).

Really sad, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Herewegoagain on February 25, 2003, 01:33:53 AM
:roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:


Not news at all.... It's a personal rant.  Boy you morphos guys are all wound up.... chill out and have a drink.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Paul_Gadd on February 25, 2003, 01:36:34 AM
Cant you companies stop this madness?.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Targhan on February 25, 2003, 01:51:32 AM
I see some of you missed the point.  It's not that Mai is horrible, nor is it a statement directed to the A1.  If I had been working for Mai, under the circumstances they are working, I would have done the same thing.  What I'm bashing is the industry in general, and it just so happened that Mai picked the perfect time to make an example out of themselves.  Also, IBM is as much to blame as Mai is, because they are the ones who made this silly "verification" system.

Mai's goal was/is to attact the attention of bigger fish.  While what Mai does will affect this community, that doesn't mean that they were aiming this announcement at our community.

Finally, I will say it again, this is a statement against activities of this likeness performed throughout the computer industry.  Go to your local computer store, pick up a random hardware package, and look at all the cute logos printed on the back.  It's all the same bogus garbage.  Very few of those certificates, verifications, or validations mean squat.  

I realize I was a bit hard on Mai, but I also pointed out that there was some validity to their statement.  It's just that their P.R. spun in up.  Mai is closer to the mainstream that anything Amiga (or MorphOS), so they are caught up in that rat race of certifications.  

Last, but not least, I did check with an outside source connected with NOBODY from EITHER side of this stupid AOS/MOS war.  I was trying to find out exactly what the verification was all about, and ended up in a circle of goofy IBM propoganda pages.  I guess everything I post/say is related to A or M?
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Rodney on February 25, 2003, 01:58:55 AM
Quote

I can pretty much guess what brought this all about too:
Comment posted by Ben H. on Ann


Sorry, i doubt it, havnt seen that thread yet.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: downix on February 25, 2003, 02:00:47 AM
@Mike_B

I'm with redluma here, you are behaving very inappropriately considering that Targhan did his research and backed it up.  He drew a conclusion, based on the evidence he uncovered, and delivered it in a concise and proper reporting method.

Now stop behaving so badly.  If you don't have something nice to say, don't hit Post Comment.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Herewegoagain on February 25, 2003, 02:16:52 AM
Quote
I see some of you missed the point. It's not that Mai is horrible, nor is it a statement directed to the A1. If I had been working for Mai, under the circumstances they are working, I would have done the same thing. What I'm bashing is the industry in general, and it just so happened that Mai picked the perfect time to make an example out of themselves. Also, IBM is as much to blame as Mai is, because they are the ones who made this silly "verification" system.


Funny, that I haven't seen you get this wound up and determined to expose Genesi's marketing hype.  They post pages long hype all the time as news, and I don't see you setting out to "debunk" Bill Buck.  But maybe it's time someone did.

So now that you've exposed that the whole computer industry is full of bullshitters and liars,  what's next?  I'll say it again.  It is rant, not a "news" article.  You came across so extremely sarcastic and prejudice with a tone of almost shouting at points.  And you call it news?  Let's see.  I'm thinking of a news article I could do....wonder if they will post it..... I bet not....
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Argo on February 25, 2003, 02:28:13 AM
Reread his article. It's not purely about MAI or deception (well, in as much as marketing is deception). It's about "the process" behind all these logos, emblems, stickers (Microsoft certified, Ready for IBM, SUN approved, etc.)
He's not saying MAI's products are ####e. He's saying it is what it is. The MAI release about being Ready for IBM verified is just "Yup, it's compatable. Your stuff works with our stuff". Even though the MAI press release seems to make it look abit more than that. It's PR, It's Marketing. Making your product look better than everyone else's, It's washing and polishing that rusty old bike to get someone to buy it. Not that the bike isn't perfectly funtionaly, it just doesn't look as good as the rest til you spiff it up abit.
This article was probalby born out of some recent A1 vs. Pegasos, Gensi slamming MAI discussion where people were actually saying that MAI northbridges were IBM certified.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Argo on February 25, 2003, 02:31:11 AM
Corrected how? He's just saying that people should read marketing, press releases, company website, etc. abit more carefully. That the MAI press release is just a statement of our northbridges are compatable with IBM G3 and G4 processors, nothing more. Some people have been making more of this press release than what it is. That's all.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Argo on February 25, 2003, 02:42:43 AM
Herewegoagain:
"Genesi's marketing hype. They post pages long hype all the time as news"

No they don't, They never or rarely post anything as news. BBRV always post is marketiod diatribes in ther forums. So, he gets more exposure. Simply just don't read them then.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Herewegoagain on February 25, 2003, 02:42:48 AM
Quote
This article was probalby born out of some recent A1 vs. Pegasos, Gensi slamming MAI discussion where people were actually saying that MAI northbridges were IBM certified.


Oh I know exactly where it came from.  And I wasn't slamming Pegasos or Genesi, but stating the obvious to those who were bashing MAI and making accusations about the Articia being so buggy that they were having to redesign the Pegasos using another chip.   I was the one that Downix told he didn't ever want to hear about their certification again.

A certification is just as valid as running around posting a "news" article every few days about a "new exciting prospect that we are about to get, and you will soon see".  In fact, I put more clout in a certification than all the fluff that BBRV spews out here on a regular basis.  

They had no more arguments about how bad the Articia was, so they set out to "debunk" the certifications.  I could care less.  The certifications still stand.  You read it ever how you want it.  They are there and VALID.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Herewegoagain on February 25, 2003, 02:55:15 AM
Quote
No they don't, They never or rarely post anything as news.



LOL!!! I don't know what world you are living in, just look at the last 10 news items.  Browse back a bit and you'll see more.  And you want to talk about hype with marketing.  Just look at how Genesi are going on and on about things like "The Phoenix partnership" and such, to make it look like that they are much more important than they are.  But nobody takes offense to that and writes a whole 5 page rant about it.  I was trying to keep an open mind about the whole Pegasos and Morphos idea, because it was looking pretty good.  But these last two days have made me realise why it was that I was waiting on OS4 and AmigaOne to begin with.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Herewegoagain on February 25, 2003, 02:57:54 AM
Quote
You mean the same way you saw the future of gfx


And what kind of future have you seen Zacman.  The Parhelia is still a very nice card, even if it's not the top FPS for gamers.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Madgun68 on February 25, 2003, 03:10:38 AM
Quote
I'm with redluma here, you are behaving very inappropriately considering that Targhan did his research and backed it up. He drew a conclusion, based on the evidence he uncovered, and delivered it in a concise and proper reporting method.

Wasabi was quoted as saying "companies need to prove that their technology is validated"

and

"This validation generally occurs as part of a side transaction between IBM and third-party vender"

What kind of proof? What occurs during this "side transaction?" Without knowing the details of either, how can one conclude that Mai's "..statements they make in their press release is more of spin.."

"may have just been a requirement for them to supply some of their chips to IBM"

MAY HAVE? I don't think anything more needs to be said after that.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Argo on February 25, 2003, 03:11:00 AM
Herewegoagain:

Erg, It's not a Certification or at least not called that. IBM calls there Ready for IBM a valadation of compatbility.
In my mind, a Certification would be a set of validations, tested  and passed as to meet a set of standards.
The hole punching in the press release comes form it just being a statement of compatability and in no way states the the MAI product is bug free or how well it funtions, only stating that it does function with IBM G3 and G4s.
One of the things in the article I would have liked to have seen was what is this rigous validation process that is mentioned. Are products submitted to IBM? (doesn't seem to be according to the end of the article, only that IBM verifys the results) Does the company seeking Ready for IBM status make up their own validation of compatability process or are they given guidlines/procedures from IBM?
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Argo on February 25, 2003, 03:20:17 AM
Herewegoagain:
" just look at the last 10 news items"

Sorry, I'm unfamilar with Gensi personell. Are the posters of those news articles Gensi employees or MorphOS supporters?   I was actually referring to postings by BBRV, who rarely posts anything as news.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Hammer on February 25, 2003, 04:02:06 AM
@Targhan

Quote

"MAI Logic has successfully developed optimized supporting devices and reference designs for PowerPCTM microprocessor application platforms which have passed a rigorous PowerPCTM compatibility validation testing process by IBM Microelectronics labs," said Lisa Su, Director of PowerPCTM and emerging products, IBM Microelectronics.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: JoannaK on February 25, 2003, 04:17:31 AM
@Hammer
I have seen this same quote posted to various sites at least ten times. never has there been any link to original nor any other explanation of it's meaning. So?
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Hammer on February 25, 2003, 04:22:43 AM
@JoannaK
What does Ms Su say in regards to MAI's products?

The issue of the original source can be obtained from  Ms Su herself.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: JoannaK on February 25, 2003, 04:43:14 AM
@hammer
Did you ever though that you have just received standard reply to all  inquries concerning  their partners and that person most likely have not even seen these Mai  products in real life? Go, ask, I'll wait.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: downix on February 25, 2003, 04:45:49 AM
Quote
IBM G3 and G4s.


To note, IBM only makes the 740 and 750 series (G3) processors.  Only Motorola makes the 74xx series (G4) processors.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: downix on February 25, 2003, 05:04:05 AM
Quote
This article was probalby born out of some recent A1 vs. Pegasos, Gensi slamming MAI discussion where people were actually saying that MAI northbridges were IBM certified.


This was in the Pegasos II thread, to be exact.  I'll admit, I am extremely hard on Mai, but I also work for Genesi and I have good reason to be extremely harsh with them.  

I also have been the one pushing both sides to put the issues of performance to rest by using an independent benchmark.  I finally convinced Mr. Buck on it, but it's convincing the other side I'm having less and less luck with.  I've even solicited help from some Linux kernel hackers to find the right benchmarks in order to demonstrate system bugs (which is Genesi's claims) as well as to back-up the claim that the A1 w/ G4 is as fast as a Pentium 4, which has been claimed in more than one thread here.

Yes, I would rather put it to the test than continue this vicious mudslinging.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Ivan on February 25, 2003, 05:07:28 AM
You people really need to lighten up.

Targhan, you restated a long known fact (well, at least to me) about business as usuall in this day and age. Businesses like to spin up thier products. Maybe more people should post things like this (everywhere in the world, not just in Amigaville). I dont care who you used as an example, you stated your intent or 'agenda' (if any) in the opening paragraphs, "Truth in advertizing". I give you credit the same as Ben Hermans did, nice research. I wish more people would post rather than fight some agenda. Truth is, business does make alot of noise about thier products. Thats called marketing, if your interested in the details of thier IBM certification and what MAI really does offer in a chipset then contact MAI and IBM yourselves and find out. If you didn't have a clue about marketing practices these days, well now you do.

The rest of you, oh man your a sad bunch. JoannaK has nothing better to do than try and make an argument off topic with Ben Hermans (we dont care what you think of him), Paul_Gadd is his usuall 'crap on everything' self (go away, your polluting the threads), others cry it's not news cuz i already knew (then shut up if you have nothing to contribute), just to name a few. Grow up people. Your lucky i'm not a moderator here or i'd have cut 30 responses to this item by now.

It was a good read Targhan, thanks. :)

Ivan
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Targhan on February 25, 2003, 05:17:50 AM
@Ivan
Thank you.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Darth_X on February 25, 2003, 05:37:45 AM
@Herewegoagain

First of all.. chill out, you are way over reacting to this!  :-o
 
Quote
I'm thinking of a news article I could do....wonder if they will post it.....


I'm a news moderator at Morphzone, so if you have a news article I will have a look at it and post it if its reasonable.

By the way, Targhan ran his article past me and I see nothing wrong with it. I see news articles like this on television all the time.  :-D

You would except to see a report exactly like this on a national consumer television program such as MarketPlace in Canada. :-D
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Darth_X on February 25, 2003, 05:51:52 AM
@HyperionMP


Quote
That's the good thing of having access to inside information not available to the public.


You have inside information?

Quote
I have seen the future of PPC and I like :)


You wouldn't happen to have the IBM PPC roadmap past the 970 would you? :-D
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: dammy on February 25, 2003, 06:30:52 AM
Poster: MikeB Date: 2003/2/24 19:54:36

Quote
IMO running this as a "news" story is pathetic (I would have expected such a posting on ANN though). Well if the "community" can sink deeper, then why shouldn't we, seems to be the reasoning....


Mike, your just jealous that someone did actual research and make your typical pathetic articles look like the puff pieces they are.  And go whine to someone who cares... ;-)

Dammy
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: dammy on February 25, 2003, 06:33:50 AM
Poster: MikeB Date: 2003/2/24 20:16:51

Quote
You must have misread something. Clearly Targhan has his own agenda to write this rant, however Amiga.org decided to post it as a news item.


Oh, I see now.  If it backs up your fluff pieces, it's good journalism.  If it goes contradicting your favorite spin, it's a rant.  Gotcha.

That's real big of ya Mike.

Dammy
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 25, 2003, 07:13:03 AM
@ Downix, Dammy and all the other well known trolls

Quote
I'm with redluma here, you are behaving very inappropriately considering that Targhan did his research and backed it up.


First of all, I don't share his underlying opinions and conclusions with regard to Mai Logic, but that is besides the point.

Secondly you two guys have repeatably spread nonesense and FUD with regard to me and others without ever backing this up, so the things you say make no sense coming from you. For example, you Downix, made endless stupid 0% true statement like "Calling Sassenrath a god, when on other posts you go on and on about how his work is obsolete and not worth bothering with?" or you Dammy stating in dozens of postings how you know 100% for certain that Amiga Inc is bankrupt. If you guys are so right, then please back up such nonesense statements now.

Quote
Oh, I see now. If it backs up your fluff pieces, it's good journalism. If it goes contradicting your favorite spin, it's a rant. Gotcha.


I am against this kind of behaviour, running such rants as general news. Also if this was directed towards Genesi, H&P, Microsoft, etc.

I am sure that (almost) none of the general news websites would have run this "news" story. Not OSNews, not Tweakers, not CNN, not even a trolls nests like Slashdot, etc. But yet again the Amiga community proves that Amigaland is the land of endless possibilities (in the negative sense)....

@ Amiga.org webmasters

Just look at the people who are backing you up today, they are the members of the FUD/misinformation spreading gang of yesterday.  Don't you really see what you are doing to this website and how you are hurting the outsider opinion of the Amiga/MorphOS "community"?

Just for your information, I *could* write hundreds of similar "news" articles trying to attack various "Amiga related companies". But I don't, because what is there to be gained? IMO nothing, only to loose and make both the involved companies and the "community" look even more pathetic than they already do. (Sometimes even entirely by themselves)   :-(
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 25, 2003, 08:56:58 AM
@ Targhan

Quote
What I'm bashing is the industry in general, and it just so happened that Mai picked the perfect time to make an example out of themselves.


IMO nonesense, I believe your choice for Mai Logic is anything but a random coincidence. Based various information I received, it is likely that Mai does not want to work with Genesi anymore.

Bill Buck even goes as far as spreading hollow legal threats directed against Mai. Now you happen to be a vivid MorphOS/Pegasos follower and so it truly looks as if you have a hidden agenda.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Step on February 25, 2003, 09:21:49 AM
Ouch!

I dont see the point when people complain that this is not a newsitem, theres no editorial space here except if you drop it in the forum right ?, i like editorials as they provide a persons view of different issues. This one was interesting, a bit abvious perhaps, but still interesting.

I dont mind seeing some stuff in the news section thats not really news, aslong as its not the typical forum stuff. Perhaps in the future the site will offer some editorial space ?
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: jumpship on February 25, 2003, 09:23:41 AM
Ooo so MAI put some spin on a press release, wow, woope doo.

Wake me up when you have all stopped acting like spoilt children
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: anarchic_teapot on February 25, 2003, 09:40:29 AM
I agree with MikeB, Paul_Gadd and the rest: this is not news, it's opinion.
It's certainly not good journalism. Why?
- Straw man: the person is attacking a company for what 3rd parties may or may not have claimed re their product
- Inbuilt bias: it would appear that at no point has any attempt been made to contact MAI for further details or explanation
- It contains blatant untruths and mis-representations (it is for example claimed that the Articia S doesn't work with the 750 FX)
- It makes use of emotionally charged words in what I would call a dishonest way, particularly "earn". This is marketing usage, not journalism
- The article first appeared on Morphzone, a forum about which the visitor is told nothing, most particularly who runs it and how closely related it is to Genesi. Personally, until such points are cleared up I'd rank it on a par with an article on Linux published on MSN.
Good try, but lacks form, balanced research, and unfortunately appears to have a pre-loaded agenda. More for The Sun than The Guardian, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 25, 2003, 09:51:22 AM
@ Step

Quote
i like editorials as they provide a persons view of different issues.


Me too. However this isn't "hardware news" and normally when dealing with opinion pieces, this should be made obvious right from the start and normally I would like to know some background info on the author.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: anarchic_teapot on February 25, 2003, 09:52:02 AM
Quote
You would except [sic] to see a report exactly like this on a national consumer television program such as MarketPlace in Canada.  

Ah yes, television, where the spectacular necessarily prevails over the rigorous. Never mind the facts, just look at the audience ratings. Not a good reference, I'm afraid, although a conscientious TV hack would have tried to talk to MAI as well.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: MiniBobF on February 25, 2003, 10:06:08 AM
Quote
Very nice "research " there but I know for a fact that within the next few months, you will be corrected in a major way.

That's the good thing of having access to inside information not available to the public.

I have seen the future of PPC and I like :).


Anything to do with MPC7455, MPC 7457, PPC970 or PPC750GX?

Neil Thomas, AKA MiniBobF
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: cgutjahr on February 25, 2003, 11:47:07 AM
My first posting in this thread has been removed without further notice. Could the moderator who did this give me a small hint as to why he removed my posting? I honestly don't have the slighest idea, and I'd like to know which part of the posting guidelines I violated.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: ksk on February 25, 2003, 12:30:36 PM
If things had happened like they were planned to happen in PPC roadmaps in 1997/98, we would have already G7 CPUs...

I could try to dig those old roadmaps out (just for fun) ... I think I have IBM and Moto papers stored somewhere ... I think they are not so top secret in this century...

****
btw little offtopic, but is there any news about AMD technology going into future PPCs?
AMD goodies that could make the IBM&AMD co-operation very important:
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/VirtualPressRoom/0,,51_104_4699_4741,00.html (http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/VirtualPressRoom/0,,51_104_4699_4741,00.html)

*******
Here's a little information bits of what IBM will do after PPC970: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7973 (http:// http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7973)
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Herewegoagain on February 25, 2003, 12:46:04 PM
Quote
@Herewegoagain

First of all.. chill out, you are way over reacting to this!  



Huh???  Don't tell me what to do.  I'm not over reacting to anything.  I'm stating my thoughts and views on this whole "circus like news".  Just like everyone else is doing.  To be honest, even the title of this thread sounds like it came directly out of Bill Bucks mouth.  (How many emails did you get from BB contributing to this "article", Targhan?  Did he also promise you a new Pegasos II to write it? :-)  )  

And I never said anything about a news story on Morphzone.  But if I did the working title may be something like "Genesi is SO proud of it's Partners!".    I've never been there and have no intention of going.   Anyway, it's fun to think of what would go into that pretend article.

Quote
By the way, Targhan ran his article past me and I see nothing wrong with it. I see news articles like this on television all the time.


Where? On tabloid TV??  No respectable network would touch that article the way it is written.  Maybe the Maury Povich show or Jerry Springer.

It was written with clear prejudice against Mai Logic, from a supporter of Genesi.  There is an agenda by Targhan  going into this whole "article".  I wonder why he didn't spend that much effort putting together something useful that we all would like to see like those infamous Genesi benchmarks.  Or digging in deep to reveal the REAL reason that Genesi are HAVING to redesign the Pegasos.   Or exactly "What does it mean to be backed by The Phoenix Consortium?"  as Bill Buck made much to do over this as well (although I guess it's clear now why he had that $299 "fire sale" on the Pegasos :-P ).  Or how about "Do we REALLY need another STB?".  

Yet he takes something like IBM's validation process to try and tear at the throat of Mai Logic.  Bill buck trains his minions well.  But in the end did he really discredit anyone?  I think not.  The "article" had all the smell of Bill Bucks backing.  Even sounded as though it was worded by BB himself, and as such had the same negative effect to me.  


 :-D end of rant :-D
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: DaveP on February 25, 2003, 12:46:25 PM
Im sorry Targhan this did not tell me anything
other than I already knew and havent already said
on threads when this Mai statement was released
in the first place.

I would like to know who these "others" are that
helped you put this together and the "we" refers
to throughout.

Can I also ask whether you have any business, personal or financial interest in Genesi or related companies?

I could understand this as an interesting forum topic
but it is way out of place in "News" in my opinion.

It isn't even particularly thoroughly researched, at no
point were Mai requested to comment on the findings and marketing spin related to certification
programmes is well known.

I would also have liked to see you get a proper
quote from IBM on the certification claim, as the
claimed certifying body.

Its a puff piece, no more and no less. I wonder if
a non moderator had submitted this if it would be news?

[edit] too rough ... sorry [/edit]
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: DaveP on February 25, 2003, 12:48:17 PM
@herewegoagain

When I think about the s**t I hurled at Mike Bouma
over his editorialising, the s**t that was hurled at
me  I'm amazed that so many that seem to be
interested in upholding the journalistic profession
to such a degree find this article to be so palatable.

 :-?
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: MarkTime on February 25, 2003, 03:31:19 PM
This is not only news, it is rarity in news.
It is researched and informative, and the facts were checked.

Whereas most 'news' is press releases....I've seen 'news' that was nothing more than a web page change on a hoaxsters website (a-la merlancia adds a price on a non-existant box).

This is a great job about news!
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: downix on February 25, 2003, 04:07:31 PM
@MarkTime

The thing is, if a similar article were to delve into, say, DCE, Genesi or MorphOS, these same people lambasting it would be praising it.  That is what I call hypocracy.

As for me, I work for Genesi so of course I will attempt to deflect any criticism of my company.  I'd highly suggest to the critics here to deflect or even better post counter-arguements to the points raised here rather than attack the person that posted them.  Heck, I brought up a counter-arguement to the article, and I have every incentive not to.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: DaveP on February 25, 2003, 04:18:48 PM
@downix

Not at all. I don't happen to like these so called
expose's when they don't actually expose anything
or come to a reasonable conclusion.

I could and did put what you said the other way around. If
this was an article about Genesi then those people lauding
and and supporting it would probably be condemning it
and the person for not having adhered to some kind
of lofty professional journalistic standard.

I remain however of the opinion that this would be OK
as a forum article but as a news story it just doesn't cut
it. Thats just MY opinion.

I popped in here again to apologise for being so hard
on Targhan above, until I get out the other end of what
Im going through Id better count to 200 before I post and
even then reconsider. :-)
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: MarkTime on February 25, 2003, 04:57:25 PM
@DaveP,

I believe your motivations, but I can hardly see your point.

I have seen so many articles, that are not even close to being news...in fact I would dare say over 90% of all 'news' posted tot his site, is just press releases, and sometimes just pointers to forum threads on other sites, and sometimes just speculation.

This is news shows actual in-depth research about the process of the IBM Certification program.  It may be part op-ed, but it is way and above the usual effort and quality we see here.

I can see saying 'make this a forum' post, if the alternatives were clearly better...but the alternatives, are to continue running press releases and rumors....this is just such a clear step up in quality...I just don't where you are coming from.

I think all sides should run into this type of news story, where Amigans can read the rest of the story.

For example, the Peg2 press release was run as news...I would have liked to have seen an expose on its lack of AGP support being announced...what does it all really mean...dig down, get some facts, interview people, get reactions.

oh ya, it'll be controversial, but readership is good for Amiga.org...and having some truth exposed is good for Amiga.org readers.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: DaveP on February 25, 2003, 05:04:30 PM
@Marktime

You are probably right. Sorry if I have put you off Targhan.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 25, 2003, 05:29:14 PM
Yea, who cares? Elbox did the same thing with their SharkPPC announcements a year ago or so, making a big deal out of some IBM PPC thing similar or identical to this situation. Big deal. I can't imagine anyone caring enough to type as much about it as you did.

Marketing types spin anything they can find to spin, and this is just one example. There's nothing special about insight into realizing this.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 25, 2003, 05:43:18 PM
@ MarkTime

Quote
This is not only news, it is rarity in news.


This isn't in the ordinary sense a news story, this is simply an opinion piece.

Quote
It is researched and informative, and the facts were checked.


IMO this isn't a well researched and balanced opinion article. Simply because the parties involved were not asked for any input, reaction or clarification. This story is pretty much Targhan's and his unknown friends' take on some selected data.

@ Downix

Quote
The thing is, if a similar article were to delve into, say, DCE, Genesi or MorphOS, these same people lambasting it would be praising it. That is what I call hypocracy.


I would not. However it is quite easy to take apart the PR stunts and press releases from just about any company, without too much effort.

A small Genesi example:

For istance the glorified "Amiga Award 2002 for bplan GmbH" announcements. While in fact 1) Genesi was the main sponsor for this Award 2) Polls for ARC visitors show that the AmigaOS/AmigaOne solutions were still by far the most preferred solution in comparison. This was backed up by various people who asked around, including Petra.

Should someone write a *news item* about this? IMO not, but if someone would, this article when including personal valuations, would become nothing more than an opinion article, well researched or not.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: MarkTime on February 25, 2003, 06:37:42 PM
@MikeB

Oh it is so easy to play this word game, but 'that is your opinion'.

We can say about any factual story, that it is the reporters 'opinion.'  His opinion about the facts...its a tiresome game.

Again, reread my posts, what is the alternative...to pass along press releases only?, links to rumors on ann.lu?, and rants? as the only news we have?

This is REAL news, it is a description about the process of IBM Validation program.

It does have elements of op-ed.  And so what?  You act as if thats a bad thing, its a very much needed and GOOD thing.

Your Genesi's example was a very good example.  Why should that nonsense 'press release' be passed off as news, and a well researched news story not accompany it a day later, with additional information about all the facts in the press release?

You act as if a press release is news and cannot be questioned.

someone cannot expand on a press release with additional facts...I mean good grief!  You are giving rights to the manufacturers of press releases to speak, that you don't give to real  journalists....

Thats the world turned upside down.

Every press release, should be checked and the rest of the story released.

And your genesi examples are perfect examples of why we need this kind of journalism.  The only thing that passed for news about those items was the Genesi press release.  We needed some good reporting about that press release.  Information that the genesi awards were self funded, is most DEFINATELY news and not simply editorial.

Quite frankly I'm not against editorial....we need some good editorial too.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Wilse on February 25, 2003, 06:40:56 PM
@MikeB:

Quote
For istance the glorified "Amiga Award 2002 for bplan GmbH" announcements.......


Quote
Should someone write a *news item* about this? IMO not,


Awww, go on........ :-D
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 25, 2003, 06:45:31 PM
@Targhan

Thanks for taking the time actually write an article. All we generally get is regurgitated press releases, vacuous 1 paragraph descriptions of some new project that's been kicked off or lengthy discussions on the forums which tend to involve people getting caught up in ever decreasing circles of, at best, speculation and, at worst,  paranoia and even spiteful venom.

The point of your article (and correct me if I'm wrong) was to take a look at the nature of press releases and marketing speak. The type of releases you are talking about are the sort of thing that ppl on these forums and others hang on for months for and dissect in minute detail. For this reason, you wanted to take a step back and point out this very simple but pertinent fact. Whereas this point could be made in a brief post, it would likely not hit target so you took the time to present it in an entertaining manner and provided some (dare I say it?) validation for what you were saying.

Some people were gracious enough to treat it as something that was an enjoyable contribution but hardly earth shattering. Others, not seeing the wood for the trees, have jumped on it in the same way that those official informational tid-bits are jumped on. The point, I fear has been largely missed.  

Please don't be put of writing items of this type again. You have a good style and I'd very much like to hear more of what you have to say.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Andre.Siegel on February 25, 2003, 06:47:14 PM
Quote
For istance the glorified "Amiga Award 2002 for bplan GmbH" announcements. While in fact 1) Genesi was the main sponsor for this Award 2) Polls for ARC visitors show that the AmigaOS/AmigaOne solutions were still by far the most preferred solution in comparison. This was backed up by various people who asked aroundl, including Petra.


You are, of course, wrong on all accounts. The Amiga Award was initiated by Falke Media (publisher of German AmigaPlus magazine). They were also the main sponsor of the official "Amiga Award." What Genesi sponsored, was last year's "Special Amiga Award" which was given to the best software developer. Did MorphOS win? No, it was not even on the list of options.

As for any ARC polls, the winner of the Amiga Award was chosen by the readers of AmigaPlus, not visitors of the ARC show in Aachen. People could vote either by snail mail or the official Amiga Award website. So whatever was said by visitors of the show, it did not matter with regard to the Amiga Award. Moreover, please note that while many people might prefer an AmigaOne because it will be capable of running AmigaOS4.0 out of the box whenever this gets released, this does not mean these people think that the AmigaOne product is the better hardware solution. This should be fairly easy to understand, even for people with a certain lack of intelligence.

If you have any more complaints about the organizers of the AmigaAward being open to bribery, feel free to mail them directly. You can find various contact addresses at the AmigaPlus Website (http://www.amigaplus.de) ...

Regarding the Amiga Award statistics, everyone can take a look here (http://www.amiga-award.org/stats-english.html). There were 2200 voters from all around the globe.


Suffice it to say, this accusation was really poor.

André
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 25, 2003, 06:57:44 PM
@Downix

OT but I love the avatar! - I'd passed a couple of posts before I actually spotted it.

You should try buying fuel in the UK though - Ouch!  :-o
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Kay on February 25, 2003, 07:08:11 PM
> For istance the glorified "Amiga Award 2002 for bplan GmbH" announcements. While in fact 1)
> Genesi was the main sponsor for this Award 2) Polls for ARC visitors show that the
> AmigaOS/AmigaOne solutions were still by far the most preferred solution in comparison. This
> was backed up by various people who asked aroundl, including Petra.

Actually, if what you are insinuating is true, I hope you WILL write an article. It's this (http://www.amiga-award.org) award you are talking about, right? I voted in that one, in good faith. If it was rigged, I would like to know. (Until I see some proof, I will assume it wasn't, though)

Kay
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 25, 2003, 07:14:02 PM
@ MarkTime

Quote
You act as if a press release is news and cannot be questioned.


Of course it can, i.e within forums. But if you combine news items with personal opinions it should be clear to be an opinion article and not pure facts or official data.

At OSNews we add an "Our take:" to such news items. Feature articles are totally different from news items of course. Within feature articles (including editorials, reviews, etc) it is very normal to present personal opinions. Sadly many people here, don't seem to know the difference between feature articles and news items.

For example, some people even attack feature articles for including opinions! Yes I know, this does sound very ackward, but you only have to search for some past responses to articles by the various people posting here!  :-o
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 25, 2003, 07:38:15 PM
@ Andre Siegel

Quote
You are, of course, wrong on all accounts.


Welcome Andre, the more Genesi personal posting here the better.  ;-)

Quote
They were also the main sponsor of the official "Amiga Award."


So you ackowledge that Genesi was a main sponsor for this award. Thanks, point one confirmed. BTW a nice throphy you guys got, looks like the most expensive one yet.  ;-)

Quote
So whatever was said by visitors of the show, it did not matter with regard to the Amiga Award.


IMO the opinions of show visitors do matter, as they have seen your product in action. This regards to point two, a majority of the visitors preferred an AmigaOne-XE, this despite Bill claims about bugs at this event and despite seeing Genesi's product in action.

This is what I meant with - "glorified "Amiga Award 2002 for bplan GmbH" announcements." - The general opinion did not change in your favour despite seeing and test driving your product, and so the fact that Genesi won this award was not that big of a deal. As people could not yet vote for the AmigaOne-XE, your main competitor within the Amiga market.

Now compare this to what is being said with regard to IBM's validation within this article. Get the point people?  :-)

@ Kay

Quote
If it was rigged


I don't have any reliable insider knowledge with regard to this and so I did not state such a thing. Personally I did not vote, but if I would have voted I would have voted for the Pegasos/bPlan (as the AmigaOne-XE/AmigaOS4 are a products for 2003, not 2002)!

Just like with this article questioning the value of the IBM validation, I was giving an example how one could easily do the same with regard to the company the writer so vividly supports.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Andre.Siegel on February 25, 2003, 08:13:49 PM
@ Mr. B


I wrote: "They were also the main sponsor of the official "Amiga Award."

Quote
So you ackowledge that Genesi was a main sponsor for this award. Thanks, point one confirmed.


"They" obviously referred to the previous sentence which said "the Amiga Award was initiated by Falke Media (publisher of German AmigaPlus magazine." I fail to see how anybody in his right mind could misinterpret my words in the same way as you just did. Enough said.


Quote
The general opinion did not change in your favour despite seeing and test driving your product, and so the fact that Genesi won this award was not that big of a deal



Again, while many people might prefer an AmigaOne because it will be capable of running AmigaOS4.0 out of the box whenever this gets released, this does not mean that these people think that the AmigaOne product would be the better hardware solution. Everyone should be able to understand this.


Quote
As people could not yet vote for the AmigaOne-XE, your main competitor within the Amiga market.


This is irrelevant. The Amiga Award was given to the company who produced the most innovative Amiga-related product in 2002. So, even if the AmigaOne-XE had been out for sale back in December, chances are high that bPlan would have won anyway. Many Amiga users know that MAI  is the driving force behind the Teron/AmigaOne boards and the actual producer of the hardware, whereas Eyetech are "just" distributors.


Your reasoning is flawed.
André
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: MarkTime on February 25, 2003, 08:47:11 PM
Quote
Just like with this article questioning the value of the IBM validation, I was giving an example how one could easily do the same with regard to the company the writer so vividly supports


Yes, well there isn't an article you could ever write, that I couldn't question.  Point me to one, I'll question it, I promise.

The fact that some people can question it, doesn't mean a thing.  If the Genesi awards were rigged, that should be news just as this is news.  If on the other hand, the Genesi awards were not rigged, that cannot be news because it isn't true.

What the journalist has to do, is research, and decide whats true.

Again, it goes back to saying 'thats just their opinon!' (about what the facts are)....

but that is what all journalists, everywhere, have to do, decide what the facts are....

your criticism here would be so much more valid, if you were actually taking a poke at targhams facts, instead of just playing word games and stating...thats his opinion of the facts!  Its not fair cause its opinion! whatever..

GRRRRRRRRRR this is sooooo tiring.

btw, 'our take' sounds good, but also I must say, that passing on a press release immediately, and having a researched story some weeks later is fine...both can be done ethically......

not every story is ready the same day as a press release.  And I think we are delving into the area of semantics, big time.

your main objection appear to be whether the story was labeled clearly.  I don't think its op-ed at all.  But in any event, press releases, op-ed, stories, rants....that isn't how anything is labeled on this site...it is labeled by subject areas and not by those types of classifications.

And finally, don't insult the reader...they know that a statement like 'Genesi is BAD' is an opinionated type of statement.  That 'Genesi rigged an award', is a statement purportedly about fact that must be proven.

People are plenty intelligent and will survive if there isn't a banner above the item explaining all its details before they read it.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 25, 2003, 09:06:57 PM
@ Andre Siegel

Quote
fail to see how anybody in his right mind could misinterpret my words in the same way as you just did. Enough said.


So now you are implying that Genesi was NOT a main sponsor? Simply be clear, was Genesi a main contributer to the Amiga Award 2002 or not?

Quote
Again, while many people might prefer an AmigaOne because it will be capable of running AmigaOS4.0 out of the box whenever this gets released, this does not mean that these people think that the AmigaOne product would be the better hardware solution


The German post-ARC polls did include an AmigaOS4/Pegasos option. The AmigaOne/AmigaOS4 was still far more popular, although you are right that an AmigaOS4/Pegasos was alot more popular as compared to a MorphOS/Pegasos combination.

Quote
The Amiga Award was given to the company who produced the most innovative Amiga-related product in 2002.


Exactly my point, people could not vote for their preferred product.

Quote
Many Amiga users know that MAI is the driving force behind the Teron/AmigaOne boards and the actual producer of the hardwar


Yes, I am very happy such a competent and well respected company is backing the Amiga community. I see no reason why Mai could not win an Amiga Award 2003 within the Amiga hardware category.

Quote
Your reasoning is flawed.


You simply don't get my point. This was an example in reply to this article. I wasn't trying to say that Genesi was doing anything illegal or bad, just like Targhan did not want to do this with regard to Mai.

It's good that Genesi employees can try to counter my statements. This is exactly why I stated that IMO for this article to be well researched he should have approached the involved parties.

@ MarkTime

Quote
but that is what all journalists, everywhere, have to do, decide what the facts are....


No a good journalist simply reports the news and tries to keep his personal opinions to himself as much as possible (There is always bias though, as the journalist must select the data he is going to report). Or alternatively he writes a feature article, while it is always very obvious people are dealing with an opinion piece.

This article was presented as "Hardware news: Mai Excited about Validation!". With regard to this article it is very misleading and not at all correct behaviour towards Mai. Instead this article could have read: Editorial: "Why is Mai Excited about IBM Validation?"
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: MarkTime on February 25, 2003, 10:03:59 PM
@MikeB

***********************************
PRESS RELEASE
For immediate Delivery

WORLD ENDS TOMORROW
**********************************

MikeB, this is very important news that all your readers need to know about.  Since you are incapable of discerning what the facts are, please
report it immediately to your readership.

I stand by my statement that reporters must discern the facts are, before they can report them as fact.  I hope you will stand by your statement that a reporter simply reports the facts without forming an opinion about whether or not they are indeed true or not.

Because, we have finally gotten down to why all the fancy smanshy talk, is in fact, a red herring.  Its just  word games designed to bismirch someone because they reported a news story that was not favorable to you.  I am sure you know all these nonsense arguments by heart  because you've heard them all before.

p.s.

As I stated before the types of categories are 'Hardware', 'Software','Genesi', 'Amiga' etc...and not classifications like 'Editorial', 'News', 'PR' etc....

will everyone please scroll to the top and see if MikeB's statement about the article being titled 'Hardware News' is correct, of it is in fact just says 'Hardware'

Yes, MikeB, readers are smart, and they can easily discern what is opinion and what is statement of fact....for example, when someone says a contest is rigged they are making a statement about fact, and if it can't be proven, then it may be that the person is 'lieing'
 :-D
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 25, 2003, 10:31:10 PM
@ MarkTime

Childish, OSNews is about computing, not about the believes of your sect.

And I hate to burst your bubble, reporting does not per se have to be truth preaching. For instance President Bush may say: "Irak has nuclear capabilities!", Sadam Hussein may "Untrue, they just want to seize our oil!", the weapon inspectors may claim: "Iraq has no nuclear program".

As a journalist, you report this news without adding opinions, like "Bush is the new Hitler!" or "The weapon inspectors are incompetent", etc. But that does not mean the content of what is being stated is true or false, it doesn't imply the journalist is unbiased neither. Maybe he only reports on the statements made by Bush, or emphasizes the statements made by Sadam.

Quote
As I stated before the types of categories are 'Hardware', 'Software','Genesi', 'Amiga' etc...and not classifications like 'Editorial', 'News', 'PR' etc....


That does not change the fact that you can easily tag it as an editorial. Category: Hardware or whatever Title:"Editorial: Targhan on Mai/IBM validation".

Quote
of it is in fact just says 'Hardware'


Read above, it was posted as news. Just hit the news logo, located at the upper right corner of this webpage and see if you can find Arghan's opinion piece.

I just hope the webmasters have learned from the things I have written, and finally see the mistake they have made with regard to the way this opinion piece was presented to the public.  :-(
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Hammer on February 25, 2003, 11:14:34 PM
Quote

@hammer
Did you ever though that you have just received standard reply to all inquries concerning their partners and that person most likely have not even seen these Mai products in real life?

That would be your claim.

Quote

Go, ask, I'll wait.

I have not made any personal claims. But you have, thus it's your call to provide the proofs.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Kay on February 25, 2003, 11:16:05 PM
I have to agree that the title is misleading. When I saw it, I expected it to be a new press-release from Mai. Imagine my disappointment when I found out what it really was. That's not to say it isn't worth reading (although I myself stopped halfway through), but MikeB is right that it should have been marked as an editorial. It is not news in the way I understand the word.

Kay
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: redrumloa on February 25, 2003, 11:17:32 PM
Quote
I just hope the webmasters have learned from the things I have written, and finally see the mistake they have made with regard to the way this opinion piece was presented to the public.


Why don't you do some research on how IBM rigorously tested MAI's chips, also interview IBM top brass and get official statements on how they feel MAI's chips are worthy of validation. when you finish do the same for several other companies certification/validation. Then you should come back and write a news article dispelling the belief that validations like IBM's are marketing hype. Until then please lay off full frontal attacks on people like Targhan. I mean really, I remember defending you after a similar type article you wrote on OS-News even considering your information was based on hearsay and opinion, not research. You are the same Mike right?

@All

Please consider this. Like the message or not, this is true editorial news. If you always(in the so called Amiga spirit) attack the messenger because you do not like the message, you will never get quality news.

For this in particular myself and many others already knew the truth behind 'validation' type marketing hype and this was just another well written article on the matter. To others, they truly cannot see the forrest for the trees. All they see is a perception that someone is bad mouthing Eyetech, which is not the case.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 25, 2003, 11:31:08 PM
Quote
You must have misread something. Clearly Targhan has his own agenda to write this rant, however Amiga.org decided to post it as a news item.
There's no agenda here.  It's a good read.  Note that Targhan is a Webmaster here.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 25, 2003, 11:44:19 PM
Quote
Its a puff piece, no more and no less. I wonder if it would be news?
Yes.  It would.  

Whether or not you like it, or are simply upset because it doesn't support your agenda (MikeB), it is valid.  It is factual. It is well researched and it is about 10,000 times more effort than the average Amiga.org member goes through to support this site.

@Everyone bitching about this article's placement as news.

Don't like it?  Shut up or put up.  Simple concept.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 25, 2003, 11:49:42 PM
Quote
IMO this isn't a well researched and balanced opinion article. Simply because the parties involved were not asked for any input, reaction or clarification.
Oh My Ever-loving God!  

I am absolutely certain I did *not* just see Mike "master of the editorial news item " Bouma, spout the quoted text above.  Hey Mike... remember about 2 months ago when everyone was asking you the SAME thing about your "articles"?
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: cdfr on February 26, 2003, 01:00:22 AM
Isn't it funny to see how the most biased "journalist" in the Amiga community can jump on anything doing bad publicity to his beloved "family" ?

I have read many times the people praising MAI because they have this IBM validation.
As a lot of readers I thought, well another PR tactic.
Shocked ? No, the computer industry is using these PR stunts every day.
You make a product that make use of IBM chips so you can apply and get a validation. It makes your publicity and IBM one and everyone is happy.

Bouma said that Genesi lied, that the April was FUD and so on, now he implies that they have cheated at the Amiga awards. Just more lies.

If MAI has no problem with the articia why are they not shipping in volume right now ?
Maybe Terrasoft and Eyetech want to wait until the board are obsolete ...  or maybe Genesi was right and they are right to dump MAI for their business projects ;-)
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 26, 2003, 04:51:55 AM
@ Kay

Quote
I have to agree that the title is misleading. When I saw it, I expected it to be a new press-release from Mai.


Yes, this is exactly what I tried to get through to the webmasters. To the outside world especially (non-Amiga community), this editorial was reported in one of worst ways possible. It truly damages the reputation of Amiga.org and the community.

@ Webmasters

Let me quote myself from this very thread:

"First of all, I don't share his underlying opinions and conclusions with regard to Mai Logic, but that is besides the point."

Yes, your focus is besides the point I was trying to make. Your reactions truly dissapoint me.

With regard to my articles, as I have stated many times before, they must include opinions for having any true value and relevance. You cannot have a review without stating your opinions, it is as simple as that. My past *news items* on OSNews are without opinion statements of course, but not my feature articles, which often attracted many thousands of unique additional visitors to OSNews.

Quote
Hey Mike... remember about 2 months ago when everyone was asking you the SAME thing about your "articles"?


Be more specific please. I research my articles as well as I can. Most information I use comes directly from the source, so what are you talking about?

@ cdfr

I often stated that Genesi employees and particularly Bill Buck have been spreading too much FUD with regard to 3rd party products, yes. This is obvious to anyone who knows what FUD stands for.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: dammy on February 26, 2003, 05:41:24 AM
Poster: MikeB Date: 2003/2/25 2:13:03
Quote
Downix, Dammy and all the other well known trolls


Speaking of trolls, how the heck ya been doing Mike?

Quote
r you Dammy stating in dozens of postings how you know 100% for certain that Amiga Inc is bankrupt. If you guys are so right, then please back up such nonesense statements now.


With this half truth statement, like you usually spout out, you really wonder why I enjoy responding to your post?  It's over for, I've said that over and over and I still saying it.  What I have not said was that they were bankrupt, that's something you have came up with on your own.  Some psuedo journalist you are,  you can't keep your BS straight.

Now go reread those federal court papers, see if you can see where Amiga Inc maybe in a world of hurt.

Dammy
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: dammy on February 26, 2003, 05:45:57 AM
Poster: MikeB Date: 2003/2/25 14:14:02
Quote
At OSNews we add an "Our take:" to such news items.


Perhaps "you all" should be calling it "OSPropaganda" instead?

Dammy
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: jtsiren on February 26, 2003, 08:35:26 AM
I find it interesting how much time our community uses nowadays to discuss what is news and what is not. Clearly there is some need to play down those issues that are not within one's sphere of interest, and vice-versa? Otherwise I can hardly believe people would be so interested in that debate. Anyway, that is beside my point... I have actually two to make.

1) I do think this article in question was an effort to be applauded. Was it perfect editorial content? No. It should have included comments from other parties, or at least notes on  genuine efforts to contact them. Perhaps the language should have been toned down a bit too. But it was a volunteer effort and included a lot of research, so I wouldn't be too harsh on the guy. I think we need more stuff like this - and not just in some obscure forums, but getting the attention they deserve. Forums are good for additional rebuttals and further commentary to hash it all out. This is a volunteer effort. Lets not criticize the guy like he is doing it for a living, okay? It doesn't have to be perfect to be constructive. I agree with Wayne.

2) And Mike, a lot of what I said above can be said of your articles as well. Perhaps we shouldn't be too quick to criticize them. As I understand them, they are volunteer efforts? But you attacking this piece so openly gives me some pause. Perhaps you do not see this. But what really makes me wonder is you countering research with arguments like:

"Be more specific please. I research my articles as well as I can. Most information I use comes directly from the source, so what are you talking about?"

Exactly. Most of the information on your favourite products come directly from the source. You post a lot of stuff concerning Amiga for instance, that people doing research find suspect. You are implying, at least in this thread, that only official sources are to be trusted - only press releases are to be considered as news. (Of course this is not really how you feel since you are so open to criticize Genesi's official statements, but still.)

And that is exactly why people find your stance so open to criticism, in my opinion. The official sources do not always hand out the facts. They have their reasons to do so, and we can all understand and even sometimes appreciate them. Investigative journalism is another matter. Research can often deliver facts that those official sources would never want revealed. They are still just as factual. They are not opinions. They can even be very much news.

In conclusion: Could Targhan have done a better job? Definitely. Should he? Perhaps. Does it make us look ridiculous? I don't think so. It is far more realistic than some of the optimistic articles from Amiga fans that I've read and my friends have laughed at with comments like "You don't really believe in those Amiga plans, do you?" (and later my friends have been quite correct in their assesment). Is this news? Well. Amiga.org doesn't really have any other way to post article content then as news. It is an article. Not perfect, but well researched nonetheless. A bit biased, sure, but nothing I wouldn't allow from a volunteer, hobbyist effort.

After all, there is this forum associated to it to put all the opinions into perspective. The reader can make up his or her mind.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 26, 2003, 09:02:48 AM
@ Wayne

Quote
Hey Mike... remember about 2 months ago when everyone was asking you the SAME thing about your "articles"?


Ah I remember now. I used information provided by Ben Hermans, the manager of the AmigaOS4 project for the AmigaOS4 features listed within an article. And yes there were quite a few trolls, some of which are currently posting within this thread, who attacked my approach to go the source.

LOL, don't you understand how weak this argument really is? It's like saying I shouldn't use Steve Jobs as a source for an article on Apple's direction, or don't use Stefan Robl as a source for AmiDock features...

@ Dammy

"Amiga DEad" seems to have been one of your most favourite statements regarding Amiga Inc.  ;-)

@ jtsiren

Quote
And Mike, a lot of what I said above can be said of your articles as well.


Clear distinctions are being made between my feature articles and my news articles. Just think for a moment about what Kay said for instance, at first he thought it was a news item instead of an opinion piece.

Quote
(Of course this is not really how you feel since you are so open to criticize Genesi's official statements, but still.)


Of course, they may hype their products as much as they want. But I criticize them for continuously adding FUD regarding 3rd party efforts, to their "official" statements (/forum updates).

Quote
You are implying, at least in this thread, that only official sources are to be trusted - only press releases are to be considered as news.


No, but if you want to provide more information on how and why validation regarding to Mai's products take place, you should approach the parties directly involved as well. Regarding this article, it is IMO absolutely a minimum requirement.

IMO this "news item" is presented in a way that it could damage the reputation of Mai. While in fact Mai has done nothing wrong and there are tons of better examples to use.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: strobe on February 26, 2003, 10:01:19 AM
Why can't people judge commentary based on the facts instead of looking for hidden agendas? Either what he says is relevant or not. I find it quite relevant given how people have been touting this IBM seal of approval using it like a certification.

"Waa waaa, he isn't kissing MAI's ass! He shoudln't be given this forum! Waaa"

LOSERS! :-x
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Frodon on February 26, 2003, 11:25:48 AM
Hello,

"Childish, OSNews is about computing, not about the believes of your sect."

Oh I'm surprised! I thought OSNews was a central site about the believes of all the computing sects around the world (BeOS sect, MacOS sect, MacOS X sect, Amiga sect, MorphOS sect, Atari sect, Windows sect, Linux sect...etc) where people posting articles are in fact representatives of a specific sect (you for example are a representative of the Amiga sect, aren't you? :) ) and so write articles about it to spread the believes of their sect ;)

PS: just a piece of humour in this too hard world :)

Regards
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 26, 2003, 08:50:35 PM
@ the people emailing me

Please contact Wayne with regard to Amiga.org issues instead of contacting me! Although he may seem unreasonable sometimes, I am pretty sure he just wants to defend one of his webmasters in this specific case, Targhan (and maybe a personal friend).

Sometimes people try to defend the people close to themselves, instead of listening to valid arguments. However if you don't make your voices heard, he will never know your true feelings and ideas. Regardless of the fact that he is the main webmaster, I am pretty sure he will NOT knock you off the website just for stating your criticism (Look at me I am still here). He isn't an intolerant "dictator", only very few people have ever been banned from this website over a very long period of time.  :-)
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 26, 2003, 09:10:47 PM
Personally I hope to see more feature articles on Amiga.org for the future. BeNews would be an excellent example, interesting reviews, in depth stories, etc. Actually BeNews has been one of the most important websites which inspired OSNews.

However, IMO without taking notice of all the criticism stated above, it will only do more harm than good. IMO background information on the author(s) can be very important, for example if Mr Buck or any of his employees is behind this article in any possible way, this would give the meaning of this article an entirely different dimension. (As Genesi has had issues with Mai in the past)

But also very important is to be clear to the readers, what kind of article they are going to read. In this case IMO the webmasters sadly blew it, many people were deceived and thought this was a new news item regarding Mai Logic.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: AmiGR on February 26, 2003, 10:51:52 PM
"Yes, yes, I'm Mike Bouma, the TOTALLY unbiased
journalist. ALL news items or editorials I don't like
are biased, which *of course* mine are NEVER.
Every competition Genesi wins is corrupted, while
everything Amiga Inc does is fine! Yes, yes, for autographs wait in the queue"

:)
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Hammer on February 27, 2003, 02:11:10 AM
Quote

Why can't people judge commentary based on the facts instead of looking for hidden agendas?

Who was webmaster of MorphZone web site?

Quote

Either what he says is relevant or not. I find it quite relevant given how people have been touting this IBM seal of approval using it like a certification.

I think Ms Su's statements has something to do with it.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Andre.Siegel on February 27, 2003, 10:49:07 AM
@ Mr. B

Quote
So now you are implying that Genesi was NOT a main sponsor? Simply be clear, was Genesi a main contributer to the Amiga Award 2002 or not?


Genesi sponsored the "Amiga Award Extra" which was given to the best Amiga Shareware author. The "Amiga Award 2002" which was the main category, was not sponsored by anyone but Falke Media, publishers of AmigaPlus.


Quote
Yes, I am very happy such a competent and well respected company is backing the Amiga community. I see no reason why Mai could not win an Amiga Award 2003 within the Amiga hardware category.


I suppose you also see no reason why Microsoft could not win an Amiga Award in 2003 for indirectly financing the development of the 64BIT hardware-independant AmigaOS5 which was announced to be released at the end of this year.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 27, 2003, 11:19:41 AM
@ Andre Siegel

Quote
Genesi sponsored the "Amiga Award Extra" which was given to the best Amiga Shareware author.


So you claim that 250 Euro or less is all of Genesi's contribution to the Amiga Award 2002?

Quote
I suppose you also see no reason why Microsoft could not win an Amiga Award in 2003 for indirectly financing the development


Microsoft is merely a Pocket Paks distributer.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 27, 2003, 11:27:24 AM
@ DaveP

Quote
When I think about the s**t I hurled at Mike Bouma


This is mainly done continuously by the same small group of vocal people also trolling against Amiga/Hyperion articles/news, this should be apparent to most people. Notably however, these people almost all work for Genesi in some way or the other, or they are otherwise somehow involved.  :-o
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: BlackMonk on February 27, 2003, 05:18:33 PM
From downix:

Quote
To note, IBM only makes the 740 and 750 series (G3) processors. Only Motorola makes the 74xx series (G4) processors.


IBM makes their own G3 variants but has made G4-CPUs for Motorola before.  I'm not sure that they would tout them as their own product line, though.  Does IBM currently make G4 CPUs for when Motorola is lacking in capacity?  No, I don't think so.  However, I'm not sure there's an easy way to confirm this.  Anyway, to back up my assertion that IBM has made G4s in the past...

http://bbs.xlr8yourmac.com/ubb/Forum26/HTML/000772.html
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: BlackMonk on February 27, 2003, 05:27:35 PM
From downix:

Quote
I've even solicited help from some Linux kernel hackers to find the right benchmarks in order to demonstrate system bugs (which is Genesi's claims) as well as to back-up the claim that the A1 w/ G4 is as fast as a Pentium 4, which has been claimed in more than one thread here.


Why bother?  I can't imagine there are many applications that run on both the P4 and G4... what will you compare, Linux-based games or something?

Otherwise you're asking a question with an already-known answer.  Depending on the tasks, the G4 is as fast or faster than the P4 or even Athlon.  Again, this is dependent on what the task is and how much optimization has gone into the software preforming the task.

http://bbs.xlr8yourmac.com/ubb/Forum26/HTML/000781.html

Heh, I'm scoring loads of fun on that Mac forum today.  Go ahead and test all you want, there's no point.  Want me to save you some time?  Here's the conclusion you'll get... "in some instances, the G4 can perform as fast or faster than some of the earlier, lower-clocked P4s.  However, the G4 even at 1.42 GHz is no match for Intel's latest flagship CPU, the 3.06 GHz HT-enabled P4."

That's hardly worth the effort.  Other people have done the work for you already.  Are you afraid that the Amiga-specific motherboards will somehow cripple performance?  Ok, that might be a valid concern.  But a raw CPU comparison?  Been there, done that.  What people apparently have claimed in these forums IS true... depending on the test being run.  :)
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: BlackMonk on February 27, 2003, 05:41:10 PM
From Darth_X

Quote
You wouldn't happen to have the IBM PPC roadmap past the 970 would you?


Well, many people are predicting that the POWER5 is going to be fitting into the niche that the PPC970 is currently designed for.  Perhaps a PowerPC derivative of the POWER5 is what we can expect?

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-892836.html
http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-984808.html
http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2863929,00.html

I would think that the main push for the PPC970 in the next year and a half would be to get it scaling in speed.  I'm sure there will be some minor revisions that optimize the circuit layout and whatnot to improve speed and maybe fix some CPU errata.

Given IBM's focus, I'd also expect multithreading on-die ala the P4 HT and Xeon CPUs and maybe some hardware-based SSL or random number generation, stuff like that.  I don't see Altivec being greatly enhanced.  I don't see the PPC970 turning into a dual-core consumer offering.  It's already a 64-bit CPU.  It already has a 450 MHz double-pumped FSB (900 MHz effective rate) so that should keep it going for the next few years.  

Features-wise, what else are people wanting in a CPU?  Lower power/heat?  More integration?  Increased performance is a given, I'm just wondering if CPU manufacturers will invent some new stuff and then try to get the software manufacturers to make a market for their new hardware.  Who knows... it worked with MMX and for 3D card companies.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: Andre.Siegel on February 27, 2003, 07:37:01 PM
@ Mr. B

Quote
So you claim that 250 Euro or less is all of Genesi's contribution to the Amiga Award 2002?


Exactly.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 27, 2003, 11:00:22 PM
@ Andre.Siegel

Quote
Exactly.


Scrooges!  ;-)

Hardly worth the news announcements and banner ads then.
Title: Re: Mai Excited about Validation!
Post by: System on February 28, 2003, 08:52:03 PM
Quote
He isn't an intolerant "dictator"


I would like to take back this comment. Currently I do have my doubts...