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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Hardware News => Topic started by: guibrush on March 02, 2018, 10:28:03 AM

Title: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guibrush on March 02, 2018, 10:28:03 AM
Hi

The Apollo team is happy to announce the immediate disponibility of the Gold 2.7 core for all Vampires 500, 500+ and 600. You can right now dowload the appropriated core on this link :

http://wiki.apollo-accelerators.com/doku.php/start#latest_core

The Gold 2.7 core has many inprovements, the most notable one being of course the hardware FPU. But this is not the only one new thing ! Here is the changelog :

[GOLD2.7] (02.03.2018)
* Added fully pipelined hard FPU with peak 78 MFlops
* Added native support for all 68882 FPU operations without need of extra libraries
* Added new high performance memory controller, reaching 600 MB/sec memory speed
* Added MapRom support
* Added Workbench hardware sprite support
* Added Scanlines optional mode for retro look of games on HDMI output
* Added RangerMem (A500 slowmem) for better compatibility with some old games/demos
* Added new boot pic
* Improved MPU (memory protection) with catching memory access error Enabled
* Improved AMMX 2 instruction set with acceleration features for video decoding, image decoding, 2D-games, 3D-games
* Improved WHDLOAD compatibility improved
* Improved Faster Boot time

Like always, we are waiting your feedback on IRC :
chat.freenode.net 6697 (SSL)/6667 (non SSL) #Apollo-Team

We wish you a good installation !
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: midway on March 03, 2018, 02:09:38 AM
Great! Will test tomorrow. So how much faster is this fpu than the standard 68060fpu, which was not pipelined?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: AJCopland on March 03, 2018, 01:37:21 PM
Quote from: midway;836829
Great! Will test tomorrow. So how much faster is this fpu than the standard 68060fpu, which was not pipelined?


The only quote I can find is for 36 MFLOPS @ 66 Mhz from http://www.amigawiki.de/doku.php?id=de:parts:68060
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: midway on March 03, 2018, 06:36:55 PM
Yeah saw that on their site. I usually like waiting with updates just to be safe ;). Anyone tried it yet?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: PanterHZ on March 04, 2018, 01:58:15 AM
Since an FPU is now included, what on earth will certain people have to whine about now :)
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: slimf on March 04, 2018, 06:07:13 AM
This is Amiga.org - they will find something.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: nyteschayde on March 04, 2018, 07:48:46 AM
Woohoo! Seems more stable, installed well on first try from the Amiga side. And I love the new bootpic!!

Keep up the good work. I love my Vampire. Will be buying more once the V4s are out.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: pVC on March 04, 2018, 08:29:04 AM
Quote from: PanterHZ;836857
Since an FPU is now included, what on earth will certain people have to whine about now :)


Quote from: slimf;836867
This is Amiga.org - they will find something.


Not on this forum it seems. Other forums have already reported that the FPU implementation doesn't work properly.

For example, launch SYS:Tools/Calculator and try to calculate 5 * 1.3, and the result will be 6.499999999069.

More about issues in the FPU implementation over here:
https://blog.alb42.de/2018/03/03/vampire-2-7-fpu-part-2/
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: roomeo on March 04, 2018, 11:23:37 AM
Quote from: PanterHZ;836857
Since an FPU is now included, what on earth will certain people have to whine about now :)


Quit whining youself.. head over to Apollo core forum for the hype. :rofl:
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 04, 2018, 11:24:11 AM
Quote from: pVC;836870
Not on this forum it seems. Other forums have already reported that the FPU implementation doesn't work properly.

For example, launch SYS:Tools/Calculator and try to calculate 5 * 1.3, and the result will be 6.499999999069.

More about issues in the FPU implementation over here:
https://blog.alb42.de/2018/03/03/vampire-2-7-fpu-part-2/

Assuming this is purely due to the cutdown 64 bit precision (rather than the full 80 bit precision of the 68881/68882/040fpu/060fpu) because the full 80 bit implementation takes too much FPGA space. Then you either have to wait for new larger Vampire FPGAs or for Gunnar to have an epiphany on how to make it fit.

It's possible it's a different issue, but supposedly you should only expect scene demos to look ok and not anything that expects the correct result.

This was already discussed on amiga.org before the release, nobody wanted to accept that people might expect correct results and that it would be a problem.

According to https://blog.alb42.de/2018/03/02/vampire-v2-7-with-fpu/ Apollo won't be compatible with any software that uses Round() until you can get a version that is 100% accurate.

"The Round() on 68k always uses a helper for now, because FPC's Round() is defined to return an int64 value (signed 64bit integer). This cannot be done by the hardware on 68k, so the code currently calls the round helper, which is a pretty big function, and depends on the IEEE bit-correct result of all operations, as it does some integer bit tricks on floats. (There could be some special cases added, when the expected integer result is less or equal to a 32bit signed int, but that's beside the point now.)"
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 04, 2018, 12:04:47 PM
Quote from: psxphill;836874
Assuming this is purely due to the cutdown 64 bit precision (rather than the full 80 bit precision of the 68881/68882/040fpu/060fpu) because the full 80 bit implementation takes too much FPGA space.
The calculator uses DoubBas and is hence purely 64bit driven, even if there is a 80 bit FPU in the system. Unfortunately, the CPU-only implementation is not too good either, and it is not a good reference how IEEE math should be done.

Proper floating point math requires three additional excess bits, a round bit, a guard bit and a sticky bit. The latter gets 1 once "1"s are shifted out of the right of the mantissa (i.e. on a precision loss). Then, rouding according to the round bit, with "tie-resolution" in case we have the bit combination "100" at the end generates proper results. (Proper in the sense of: We do not have additional loss beyond the loss unavoidable due to the limited precision).

The MathIEEE libs do not get this done right, except if there is a FPU. Mathffp and MathTrans are jokes as far as the math model is concerned. Inproper rounding, no overflow handling, no NANs, no INFs.

One way or another: I already commented that you need some excess precision for double precision output of transcental math functions, i.e. 64 bit intermediate results are not sufficient for 64 bit output. In that sense, a IEEE to ASCII conversion is also a "transcental function". The calculator uses here the SAS/C built-in function, which is "ok", but does not deliver the best possible precision. Such a conversion cannot be done through the math libraries, unfortunately (at least not without loosing precision) and requires for 80 bit output even 96 bit precision.

Again, please note that the Os is not exactly a good reference here. IEEE math libraries are right with the FPU installed. With the CPU installed, the quality is pretty poor. There are no "completely bogus" results as you could get with the pre-V45 releases (pow() returned pure nonsense in some cases), but rounding is bad and precision is bad.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 04, 2018, 05:34:29 PM
Quote from: PanterHZ;836857
Since an FPU is now included, what on earth will certain people have to whine about now :)


It's not an FPU, it's a Quake enabler.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 04, 2018, 10:17:14 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;836876
With the CPU installed, the quality is pretty poor. There are no "completely bogus" results as you could get with the pre-V45 releases (pow() returned pure nonsense in some cases), but rounding is bad and precision is bad.

Is that something you'd be willing to improve?

I'm unclear about the rest of the post what the cause of the FPU errors are that the guy is reporting. Is the calculator always broken with an FPU (my amiga is currently boxed away)
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 05, 2018, 01:38:03 AM
Quote from: psxphill;836896
Is the calculator always broken with an FPU (my amiga is currently boxed away)

No, calculator works fine with real FPU.

Quote
People shall use the FPU for what it is intended to on the Vampire, that is to run most of the Amiga Demos and Games requiring an FPU.

As I commented, it's not really an FPU as much as a Quake enabler - any hope for a proper FPU on V2, is long gone. In many cases, FEMU works better (more accurate) than the FPU of core 2.7, but sadly it has its issues and development has stopped. So, another FPU emulator is needed for V2.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 05, 2018, 01:51:01 AM
BTW - I have not found a way to permanently disable the "FPU", apart from going back to core 2.5 - the VControl can only turn it off till next reboot (or to be more... hohum... accurate, next crash).
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Niding on March 05, 2018, 05:01:38 AM
Quote
Ok, thanks ALB42 and Chain-Q for the inputs.

The Round() issue is now fixed in the next Vampire core.

MUIMapparium runs well now, both CPU and FPU versions are OK.


https://blog.alb42.de/2018/03/02/vampire-v2-7-with-fpu/
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 05, 2018, 05:46:02 AM
@Niding

Oh, c'mon, don't confuse kolla with facts, he's having the party of his life because he can piss on other people's free work of an entire year...

"'Quake-enabler'! Brilliant! I need to post this on as many forums as I can!" There goes a happy troll...
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 05, 2018, 07:44:08 AM
Quote from: grond;836909
because he can piss on other people's free work of an entire year...


It's not free.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: ALB42 on March 05, 2018, 07:47:32 AM
FEmu -
Quote
development has stopped.
That's very unfortunate. So there will be no further versions of it? At least for the other Amiga's it's still needed and wanted (030/040 without FPU).
Will the Source code be released as educational piece or under a open source license so that anyone can continue with it.

Is there anyone know something or has contact to Jari?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guibrush on March 05, 2018, 08:13:03 AM
Quote from: kolla;836883
It's not an FPU, it's a Quake enabler.

Seriously ? What about Quake 2, Sysinfo, AIBB, Redrats, MWI-Kioea, Singulartity is just the beginning, software make the dance foam oil, Ghosttown metropolis, respirator stories, Lux Aeterna Lucia est, dekandence swansong, AFAOS, ScumVM FPU version, Netsurf FPU version, Warp3d FPU, Imagine 4.0, Lightwave, and all the other FPU programs working right now ?
do we have to call our FPU a [paste here the name of one of the many working FPU program above] enabler, or can we just call it a FPU ?
Man, you remind me a cop trying to find THE little thing letting him giving a fine to a random picked up car on the street.
The team implemented this hardware FPU in a little more than one year, this was an incredible amount of work. And we will still continue to polish the last remaining bugs, thanks the constructive returns of the users. For example, the Maparium bug was found and I can tell you that this is already corrected, as you can see on this video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kefOi07_ons
So, the team is not sitting on a chair doing nothing.
 The fact is that we have now a working FPU that is fast and that let the users run almost all FPU programs out there.
Have a nice day.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 05, 2018, 08:17:14 AM
Quote from: psxphill;836910
It's not free.

Oh, yes, it is. Firstly, this is not a paid update. Try replacing an LC040 for a 040 for free. And the price you pay is for the hardware, the core developer team hasn't got a penny.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: PPC on March 05, 2018, 08:21:19 AM
Quote from: kolla;836907
BTW - I have not found a way to permanently disable the "FPU", apart from going back to core 2.5 - the VControl can only turn it off till next reboot (or to be more... hohum... accurate, next crash).


Then the FPU is not your problem, runs 100% stable here.
I can use my Amiga for hours and hours playing all kind of FPU stuff and it doesn't crash/reboot etc.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: asrael22 on March 05, 2018, 08:50:03 AM
Quote from: ALB42;836911
FEmu -
That's very unfortunate. So there will be no further versions of it? At least for the other Amiga's it's still needed and wanted (030/040 without FPU).
Will the Source code be released as educational piece or under a open source license so that anyone can continue with it.

Is there anyone know something or has contact to Jari?


Yeah, should be put under open-source license and uploaded to Aminet or GitHub.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 05, 2018, 09:08:59 AM
Quote from: grond;836914
Oh, yes, it is. Firstly, this is not a paid update. Try replacing an LC040 for a 040 for free. And the price you pay is for the hardware, the core developer team hasn't got a penny.

Your argument might hold water if you could go out and buy a non vampire card and run apollo on it.

Can someone explain to me what white listing, mentioned on the fpu thread, is about?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 05, 2018, 10:11:52 AM
Quote from: psxphill;836917
Your argument might hold water if you could go out and buy a non vampire card and run apollo on it.

Even if a buyer of the card were _entitled_ to a free upgrade, it doesn't turn the team's work into PAID work. Join the team and try it for yourself. As already mentioned before, nobody in the team got a penny for a year's worth of work on the core.

And, as a matter of fact, the core has been offered for license, it's just that nobody has been wanting to make any non-Vampire cards. Furthermore, you can also put tg68 on your Vampire and enjoy the speed of an 020/030 (without FPU, of course) instead.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: AJCopland on March 05, 2018, 10:52:06 AM
Quote from: grond;836918
Furthermore, you can also put tg68 on your Vampire and enjoy the speed of an 020/030 (without FPU, of course) instead.


You can? Is the source for that available?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: ALB42 on March 05, 2018, 11:07:01 AM
Quote from: guibrush;836913
For example, the Maparium bug was found and I can tell you that this is already corrected, as you can see on this video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kefOi07_ons

Uhhh... I didn't know that Video, only read that it should be solved. :)

Yes looks very nice, also the precision seems to be not a big issue, but this I would like to test myself. Hard to see on a video.

hmm seems he did not find the Track Property window but it looked like he searched for it, ok "Edit" is a stupid name there. interesting :) Thanks for sharing.

But the Video reminds me, I really should release the new Version with keep-alive support for the network, it makes the map download 10x faster 40kb/s (in the Video) is really slow, on MOS/AROS I reach now >1 MB/s, on Classic 100-400 kb/s should be possible.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 05, 2018, 11:37:02 AM
Quote from: AJCopland;836919
You can? Is the source for that available?

tg68 is an open-source 68k core. If you want to put it in the Vampire, I'm sure the team would be happy to help you with pinouts.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Gulliver on March 05, 2018, 12:27:13 PM
Quote from: grond;836918
Even if a buyer of the card were _entitled_ to a free upgrade, it doesn't turn the team's work into PAID work. Join the team and try it for yourself. As already mentioned before, nobody in the team got a penny for a year's worth of work on the core.

I am sorry for you, but somebody has then been making profit out of your free work for over a year: as we all know, Vampires arent sold at cost.

I hope you get some compensation for your work.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 05, 2018, 12:58:34 PM
Quote from: Gulliver;836923
I am sorry for you, but somebody has then been making profit out of your free work for over a year: as we all know, Vampires arent sold at cost.

I hope you get some compensation for your work.

Maybe everyone should boycott buying vampires if Apollo development is slave labour?

Just because something doesn't cost, doesn't make it free. For example.

https://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/31/tech/web/gmail-privacy-problems/index.html

I assume Apollo developers think they will make money out of it eventually.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Niding on March 05, 2018, 01:21:27 PM
Quote from: Gulliver;836923
I am sorry for you, but somebody has then been making profit out of your free work for over a year: as we all know, Vampires arent sold at cost.

I hope you get some compensation for your work.


Everyone reading this post know you are smarter than this, so not sure what you are trying to do with that angle.

I paid for my Vampire, which was functional as is. After that point, the core has been updated x times, with new features/fixes, and thats technically work they didnt have to do, since they already got my money.
But as we all know, its called retention of customers thru good customer service.

When I buy any hardware, I know what I get, and Im not asked to pay anything else down the road. But Im more inclined to purchase from the same manufacturer IF they deliver good service and product.

Wether or not those expectations are met, depends to a certain extent on each and one of us.

But again, you are more than capable to grasp this consept, so..
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 05, 2018, 01:33:58 PM
Quote from: Gulliver;836923
I am sorry for you, but somebody has then been making profit out of your free work for over a year: as we all know, Vampires arent sold at cost.

Ah, yes? How do we _know_ that?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: ALB42 on March 05, 2018, 01:50:46 PM
Quote from: Gulliver;836923
I hope you get some compensation for your work.

I would guess they get the same compensation as I get for my FreePascal work (or any other OpenSource coder): Fun (to work on it) and satisfaction that you create something what other find useful and you didn't waste your time but produce something remarkable.

(I have the admit the latter is not very strong for me... with the low FreePascal user count on Amiga systems... but still :))
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 05, 2018, 01:56:26 PM
I totally think that MUIMapparium is something remarkable! There is not that much modern Amiga Software of a similar quality.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Gulliver on March 05, 2018, 02:09:00 PM
Quote from: grond;836927
Ah, yes? How do we _know_ that?

Know what?

My comment was a reply to your previous stament in which you said, that between other members in the team you worked for free for over a year.

If you refer to know if the Vampire is being sold at cost, that is an exercise that has been done several times by different people, even done by your own team mates. So it is nothing new, and not even a secret by no stretch of the imagination.

Compensation is not always about money. But it is a bit naive to think nobody is making a profit out of it, which has no  negative connotation by itlsef, unless you are being screwed.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 05, 2018, 02:23:49 PM
What I _know_ is that a lot of money has been _sunk_ into this project. Yes, some or most of it probably has been recovered by now. However, there is still a substantial risk involved for the people actually buying parts and paying manufacturers upfront and writing off non-functional units. Putting this into the balance, it will still take quite some time until we can consider some surplus money "profit".
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Gulliver on March 05, 2018, 02:34:59 PM
@grond

I have no doubts lots of money has been invested in this project.
All business involve risks and costs, and that is nothing new either. No risk equals no profit, as simple as that in the business world.

As long as you are are ok with it, there is nothing wrong about it.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 05, 2018, 03:06:43 PM
But this isn't business, remember? It's a hobby project.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 05, 2018, 03:14:19 PM
Quote from: guibrush;836913
Seriously ? What about Quake 2, Sysinfo, AIBB, Redrats, MWI-Kioea, Singulartity is just the beginning, software make the dance foam oil, Ghosttown metropolis, respirator stories, Lux Aeterna Lucia est, dekandence swansong, AFAOS, ScumVM FPU version, Netsurf FPU version, Warp3d FPU, Imagine 4.0, Lightwave, and all the other FPU programs working right now ?


http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=6¬e=12868&z=HWFbnR

Quote
Fast Hardware FPU  (to play some games or Demos)


http://wiki.apollo-accelerators.com/doku.php/fpu

Quote
People shall use the FPU for what it is intended to on the Vampire, that is to run most of the Amiga Demos and Games requiring an FPU.


I would not dare to use it for anything else than what Gunnar dictates.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: clebin on March 05, 2018, 03:18:32 PM
Are we now pretending that we don't know the meaning of a "free update"?

Or that "free, as in beer" is not a well understood concept alongside "free, as in speech"?

FFS, the lengths that some people will go to piss on other people's work.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: clebin on March 05, 2018, 03:20:50 PM
Quote from: kolla;836935
I would not dare to use it for anything else than what Gunnar dictates.


Another childish trolling attack - what a surprise. I've heard you say that you're just providing balance, etc as if anyone is expected to believe that. You're a joke.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 05, 2018, 03:23:44 PM
Quote from: kolla;836935
I would not dare to use it for anything else than what Gunnar dictates.

Yes, just imagine what could happen if you rendered a scene in Lightwave using this "FPU"!!!

This needs a public statement: please don't use this core to control a nuclear power plant, missile silo or eurofighter, let alone any Amiga FPU software that is not a demo or game!
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: soviet on March 05, 2018, 03:53:10 PM
Man this thread evolved fasttttt, all the trolls are already here.
I like to say hi to all of you and that really enjoy your trolling keep up the good work its fun :D.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: pcotter on March 05, 2018, 04:21:00 PM
Fuel for the trollers

Test validated by the Amiga Poland Forum
https://www.ppa.pl/forum/strefa-tworcow/28440/raytracing-i-amiga/31#m598753

https://youtu.be/qSrnbSjsSnE
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 05, 2018, 04:21:52 PM
Quote from: grond;836938
Yes, just imagine what could happen if you rendered a scene in Lightwave using this "FPU"!!!


So you're saying that the statements I referred to are BS? If so, maybe they should be changed.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 05, 2018, 04:35:43 PM
Quote from: kolla;836941
So you're saying that the statements I referred to are BS? If so, maybe they should be changed.

No, the BS was the "would not dare" and "dictates" parts of your comment.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: trekiej on March 05, 2018, 04:59:20 PM
They see me trollin', they hate it. Rolling and patrolling and tryin' to catch me typing dirting.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 05, 2018, 05:04:42 PM
Quote from: grond;836942
No, the BS was the "would not dare" and "dictates" parts of your comment.

Ah, yes, it is indeed BS that I would not dare. :)

But then you are saying that it's correct what it says in the announcement and the wiki?  It literally says "People shall use the FPU for what it is intended to on the Vampire, that is to run most of the Amiga Demos and Games requiring an FPU.!" with both bold and underlined, both punctuation and exclamation mark.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: PPC on March 05, 2018, 06:42:23 PM
Quote from: psxphill;836925
Maybe everyone should boycott buying vampires if Apollo development is slave labour?

Just because something doesn't cost, doesn't make it free. For example.

https://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/31/tech/web/gmail-privacy-problems/index.html

I assume Apollo developers think they will make money out of it eventually.


Yeah where in it for the money.... LOL!!!!

Last time i checked we all did it because we like Amiga and wanted to bring something new and fresh for Amiga fans by Amiga fans.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 05, 2018, 08:33:24 PM
Quote from: PPC;836949
Last time i checked we all did it because we like Amiga and wanted to bring something new and fresh for Amiga fans by Amiga fans.


Sounds great, I want in. Where can I download the apollo source?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: nyteschayde on March 05, 2018, 08:50:11 PM
OMG why is everybody so bent out of shape at the Apollo folks. I bought and have been thoroughly enjoying my V500 V2+. The thing is a little marvel. As soon as a V4 for the  A1200 is released, I'll buy one of those too. Same for the stand alones.

Code: [Select]
switch(yourComplaint) {
  case I_FOUND_A_BUG:
    pleaseReportToDevsAndThanksForTheSupport();
    break;
  case BS_ABOUT_EMULATION:
    goLearnAboutWhatAFPGAIs();
    break;
  case IT_DOESNT_SUPPORT_MY_SETUP:
    waitForOneThatDoesAndBeThankfulInTheMeanTime();
    break;
  case I_CANT_FIND_ONE_TO_BUY:
    learnPatienceOrPayInGoldOnEbay();
    break;
  default:
    if (youDontHaveAnythingNiceToSay) {
      keepYourThoughtsAndOpinionsToYourself();
    }
    else {
      bePatientAndReadTheForums();
    }
}
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: trekiej on March 05, 2018, 09:05:39 PM
Quote from: nyteschayde;836954
OMG why is everybody so bent out of shape at the Apollo folks. I bought and have been thoroughly enjoying my V500 V2+. The thing is a little marvel. As soon as a V4 for the  A1200 is released, I'll buy one of those too. Same for the stand alones.

Code: [Select]

switch(yourComplaint) {
  case BS_ABOUT_EMULATION:
    goLearnAboutWhatAFPGAIs();
    break;
  case IT_DOESNT_SUPPORT_MY_SETUP:
    waitForOneThatDoesAndBeThankfulInTheMeanTime();
    break;
  case I_CANT_FIND_ONE_TO_BUY:
    learnPatienceOrPayInGoldOnEbay();
    break;
  default:
    if (youDontHaveAnythingNiceToSay) {
      keepYourThoughtsAndOpinionsToYourself();
    }
    else {
      bePatientAndReadTheForums();
    }
}


Plus one.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: amiadudeorwat on March 05, 2018, 10:19:11 PM
How long does it take between registering and downloading a core that doesn't just output greyscale?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Karlos on March 05, 2018, 10:38:24 PM
Quote from: nyteschayde;836954
As soon as a V4 for the  A1200 is released, I'll buy one of those too.


Right? I don't know how much longer my A1200 will be alive at this rate.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: nyteschayde on March 06, 2018, 03:06:57 AM
Quote from: Karlos;836962
Right? I don't know how much longer my A1200 will be alive at this rate.


I suspect it’ll be soon enough. =]
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: nyteschayde on March 06, 2018, 03:12:33 AM
My missing wish list items for V5 Vamp hardware are

Network support
USB support

Add either, or preferably both, and you have made a powerhouse classic Amiga. I ordered an X-Surf 100 for my Vampirized A2000. I love the new bootpic btw.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: LoadWB on March 06, 2018, 03:34:13 AM
The v4 Vampire will be a 1200 replacement, then?  In the genre of a 1200 Reloaded but with all chips replicated?  Sounds like fun to me.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: nyteschayde on March 06, 2018, 03:45:38 AM
Quote from: LoadWB;836974
The v4 Vampire will be a 1200 replacement, then?  In the genre of a 1200 Reloaded but with all chips replicated?  Sounds like fun to me.


The Vamp V1200/V4 will not be a system replacement. The standalone Vampire V4 will be. The V1200/V4 will still use many of the chips, existing upgrade solutions and things like floppy drives. I/O on the standalone will have to provide a usage path for these things since there will be no Amiga to piggyback on.

I'd like one of each.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: ALB42 on March 06, 2018, 07:39:17 AM
Quote from: nyteschayde;836954
Code: [Select]
switch(yourComplaint) {
  case BS_ABOUT_EMULATION:
    goLearnAboutWhatAFPGAIs();
    break;
  case IT_DOESNT_SUPPORT_MY_SETUP:
    waitForOneThatDoesAndBeThankfulInTheMeanTime();
    break;
  case I_CANT_FIND_ONE_TO_BUY:
    learnPatienceOrPayInGoldOnEbay();
    break;
  default:
    if (youDontHaveAnythingNiceToSay) {
      keepYourThoughtsAndOpinionsToYourself();
    }
    else {
      bePatientAndReadTheForums();
    }
}
:huh:
As a developer, I really feel unwell to see something like this...  so there is no room for legit complains? no Bug reports, no feedback at  all...

Every "real" developer is very happy about error/bug  reports, especially when the user searched for a simple reproduction way  and it is  reproducible. At least me, but maybe I'm from yesterday, today you are only allowed to cheer!

Just my 2 cent.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 06, 2018, 08:02:59 AM
Quote from: ALB42;836978
As a developer, I really feel unwell to see something like this...  so there is no room for legit complains? no Bug reports, no feedback at  all...

Come on, you should know the difference between trolls that only bash the product without ever giving constructive feedback (other than "for running BSD an MMU is required!") and people giving useful bug reports (such as you did). The latter are always welcome and appreciated on forums.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: clebin on March 06, 2018, 12:56:33 PM
Quote from: ALB42;836978
:huh:
As a developer, I really feel unwell to see something like this...  so there is no room for legit complains? no Bug reports, no feedback at  all...

Every "real" developer is very happy about error/bug  reports, especially when the user searched for a simple reproduction way  and it is  reproducible. At least me, but maybe I'm from yesterday, today you are only allowed to cheer!

Just my 2 cent.


You're absolutely right! Just for the avoidance of doubt: my last post was specifically aimed at one user and you'd have to go back through months and years of his posts to see why I might get frustrated and post that. Maybe I should've kept my trap shut, but I don't like to see the obvious delight that some people take in rubbishing other people's work. I'd never want to discourage serious, level-minded and productive developers like you from chipping in with construtive criticism. HTH.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: PPC on March 06, 2018, 06:20:56 PM
Quote from: ALB42;836978
:huh:
As a developer, I really feel unwell to see something like this...  so there is no room for legit complains? no Bug reports, no feedback at  all...

Every "real" developer is very happy about error/bug  reports, especially when the user searched for a simple reproduction way  and it is  reproducible. At least me, but maybe I'm from yesterday, today you are only allowed to cheer!

Just my 2 cent.


We where very happy with your bug report on MUI Mapparium, and made corrections.
So please test software make us aware of bugs, it helps refining the FPU.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: nyteschayde on March 06, 2018, 07:52:46 PM
Quote from: grond;836979
Come on, you should know the difference between trolls that only bash the product without ever giving constructive feedback (other than "for running BSD an MMU is required!") and people giving useful bug reports (such as you did). The latter are always welcome and appreciated on forums.


I don't think anybody has any issues with someone with a real bug report. If you have a bug to report you're likely an owner and user of the Vamps. The problem, if you read 7 out of 10 posts on anything Vampire related, are the trolls and haters that show up just to complain.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: nyteschayde on March 06, 2018, 07:55:39 PM
Quote from: ALB42;836978
:huh:
As a developer, I really feel unwell to see something like this...  so there is no room for legit complains? no Bug reports, no feedback at  all...

Every "real" developer is very happy about error/bug  reports, especially when the user searched for a simple reproduction way  and it is  reproducible. At least me, but maybe I'm from yesterday, today you are only allowed to cheer!

Just my 2 cent.


Updated to my post to reflect your concerns, not that what I wrote was official but it should be known that anybody with a legit bug or concern should report it so the product can be made to be better.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: ALB42 on March 07, 2018, 07:34:15 AM
Quote
So please test software make us aware of bugs, it helps refining the FPU.
Currently I stopped to test stuff on Vampire because of two reasons

-- Troll mode on
I always thought C is such an efficient language in length of code, but this switch statement looks much longer and complicated than the Pascal variant of it :laugh1:
Code: [Select]
case yourComplaint of
  I_FOUND_A_BUG:              pleaseReportToDevsAndThanksForTheSupport();
  BS_ABOUT_EMULATION:         goLearnAboutWhatAFPGAIs();
  IT_DOESNT_SUPPORT_MY_SETUP: waitForOneThatDoesAndBeThankfulInTheMeanTime();
  I_CANT_FIND_ONE_TO_BUY:     learnPatienceOrPayInGoldOnEbay();
  else
    if youDontHaveAnythingNiceToSay then
      keepYourThoughtsAndOpinionsToYourself()
    else
      bePatientAndReadTheForums();
end;
-- Troll mode off
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Karlos on March 07, 2018, 09:20:08 AM
What are the actual precision limits of the FPU implementation?

If the issue is that it isn't the full 80 bit but is at least correct for IEEE 754 64-bit, then it's certainly no worse than the emulation used in OS4/MorphOS.

If the issue is that its less than 64 bits, then sure, that will cause problems for some software. How much of a problem will depend on the task at hand. It also depends on which bits are sacrificed. Most likely the low order bits of the mantissa, of course.

If the issue is that it's less precise than 32-bits, then the statement that its just a "quake enabler" may be fair criticism. Although it will also enable many other applications too.

My understanding is that its "not quite 64 bit IEEE" due to some current limitations imposed by gate counts.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: ALB42 on March 07, 2018, 11:12:20 AM
@karlos:

Difficult to answer that (for me) I didn't tested it in detail.

Disclaimer: can be completely wrong what I write here, just some very
basic tests on the surface where done! Don't slaughter me if it is completely BS.

https://blog.alb42.de/2018/03/03/vampire-2-7-fpu-part-2/
just this test as you see the
b := b * 1.0000000001;

Needs 11 significant decimals precision

Single has 6-9 significant decimals
Double had 15-17 significant decimals

Vampire (at the current released Version 2.7) does not see this
1 at the 11. position.
That means it has less than 11 significant decimals.
I remember I tried with 9 and it somehow worked (with large
error but that is to be expected at the edge of precision)

So it looks like it uses like single 23 bits for the significant
but it's not Single/32 bit because the numbers can still go up to 10^308
That means the exponent is still 11 bits long as you would expect
for a Double/64 bit.
So it's something new ;-) the VampireDouble with 23 bit significant 11 bit exponent (and a sign bit)
35 bit (but of course in memory the length of 64 bit)

I hope that make some sense.

It could be (and this is what I hope :-P) that this was a bug and solved with the Round() Bug they already solved.
Therefore I'm very careful to claim that all as a fact and continue to investigate when the new fixed version is out.

But the exact information only Gunnar can give you I guess.

Quote
My understanding is that its "not quite 64 bit IEEE" due to some current limitations imposed by gate counts.        
Sure, that's the reason, but my preferred solution would be to make the Single/32 bit calculations in the FPGA and double/extended trap like before to FEmu. or something like this. But maybe they tried but didn't worked as expected.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 07, 2018, 12:28:00 PM
Quote from: ALB42;837024
-- Troll mode on
  BS_ABOUT_EMULATION:         goLearnAboutWhatAFPGAIs();
[/CODE]-- Troll mode off

I know what an FPGA is & I know what emulation is.

Apollo is not a software emulator written for a general purpose computer, but that isn't all that "emulation" is.

You can emulate a cpu with 74ls chips if you really wanted. http://www.baltissen.org/newhtm/ttl6502.htm
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 07, 2018, 12:49:34 PM
Quote from: psxphill;837032
You can emulate a cpu with 74ls chips if you really wanted.

No, the correct technical term for this would be "implement".
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 07, 2018, 03:06:47 PM
Quote from: grond;837033
No, the correct technical term for this would be "implement".

Only if you don't know what emulate means.

emulate: "reproduce the function or action of"

How you emulate something, whether it's an fpga, software, hardware, pieces of string etc is an implementation detail.

It seems emulation is a pejorative term, so nobody wants anything to do with it & comes up with reasons why their emulation is not emulation. It's all just PR & spin.

Emulation in hardware has been around for decades. Sound cards featured sound blaster emulation, hercules graphics cards had MDA emulation.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Chucky on March 07, 2018, 03:31:10 PM
As people defaults Emulation as something to do with software, I call it "Simulation" when done in FPGA.  this seems somewhat accepted.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 07, 2018, 03:41:50 PM
Quote from: Chucky;837038
As people defaults Emulation as something to do with software,

Only because that is what is being told to them.

Having to use synonyms because of someones ill advised PR strategy, is a pain.

It's emulation, it's different from emulation in software. Just focus on the benefits, rather than turning it into another ist of prejudice and discrimination.

i.e. Lower latency because of dedicating gates to logic, rather than the multiplexed gates in a cpu that are decided by the cpu.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Motormouth on March 07, 2018, 03:46:40 PM
I am personally very glad to have the FPU at all.  It makes installing software significantly easier, which was the only real issue I had with my vampire with the way I use it.   Some installers assume you have an FPU if you install 020+ code,

So this FPU is great for my uses.

I also like that it has the full set of 68882 instructions.


I will have to dust off some of my old Maple scripts and see how well the functions work with the Vampire.  My guess is that a calculating the carrier concentration of electrons in the n-type Silicon depletion region of a transistor will not be greatly effected ie 4-5 x 10 ^18 char with an error is 10^8 order of magnitude will not have any differences.

In Physics we use to joke the answer to a problem was 0, 1, infinity, or infinitely infinite (ie an infinite set of infinities)
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 07, 2018, 03:51:45 PM
That discussion is moot, as the apollo core FPU implemented in gold core 2.7 for V2 neither simulate nor emulate anything, it clearly is its own little weirdo beast.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 07, 2018, 04:22:37 PM
Quote from: psxphill;837037
Only if you don't know what emulate means.


You clearly have no clue. A CPU built from discrete gates IS a CPU and thus not an emulation. Hence, it is _implemented_ using gates, not emulated.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Chucky on March 07, 2018, 04:46:27 PM
Quote from: grond;837044
You clearly have no clue. A CPU built from discrete gates IS a CPU and thus not an emulation. Hence, it is _implemented_ using gates, not emulated.


Still what do you call something that "implements" after documentation instead of a real 1:1 copy of the real thing?  it is not even improved from a 1:1 copy.  but an ESTIMATE of the real thing.. it is as its best an interpretion of how it was designed.

well   guess that's why I call it a Simulation.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: LoadWB on March 07, 2018, 04:47:03 PM
Maybe in a new thread?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 07, 2018, 04:50:40 PM
Quote from: Chucky;837046
Still what do you call something that "implements" after documentation instead of a real 1:1 copy of the real thing?


I don't understand the question. "Implements after documentation"?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Chucky on March 07, 2018, 05:03:54 PM
yes.  as it is not done as an exact copy.  it relies on the documentation of the cpu.  and we all know that documentation and real stuff is not always really true.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 07, 2018, 05:08:17 PM
Quote from: Chucky;837052
yes.  as it is not done as an exact copy.  it relies on the documentation of the cpu.  and we all know that documentation and real stuff is not always really true.


Which is why we even tested stuff that is documented as "undefined" on 020, 030, 040 and 060. Turned out that the undefined stuff was different on 020, 030 on the one hand and 040, 060 on the other. In such cases it was done as on the 040. You seem to have a very naive idea of how the 080 is being developed...
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Chucky on March 07, 2018, 05:17:45 PM
Quote from: grond;837053
Which is why we even tested stuff that is documented as "undefined" on 020, 030, 040 and 060. Turned out that the undefined stuff was different on 020, 030 on the one hand and 040, 060 on the other. In such cases it was done as on the 040. You seem to have a very naive idea of how the 080 is being developed...


no  I just want to point out that it is done as an interpretion how it works.  so as it is not a 1:1 replica that is improved.. I have a hard time to call it an "implementation"  more interpretion.

and ACTUALLY! I have a hard time why it is so bad that it is called "emulation" as it ISN'T a 1:1 copy..  most of us does accept emulated stuff anyway?
(I mean.  95% of all my development of DiagROM is done in an Emulator)
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 07, 2018, 05:30:09 PM
Quote from: Chucky;837054
no  I just want to point out that it is done as an interpretion how it works.  so as it is not a 1:1 replica that is improved.. I have a hard time to call it an "implementation"  more interpretion.


The 080 is an implementation of the 68k ISA, not of the 68040 or 060 or whatever. Just like the 060 is an implementation of the 68k ISA.

Quote
ACTUALLY! I have a hard time why it is so bad that it is called "emulation" as it ISN'T a 1:1 copy..  most of us does accept emulated stuff anyway?


Why insist on using a technically incorrect term? You can call a "current source" a "voltage source" but it will be wrong. But on the positive side it shows everybody that is skilled in the art that you have no clue.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Chucky on March 07, 2018, 05:44:35 PM
Quote from: grond;837055
The 080 is an implementation of the 68k ISA, not of the 68040 or 060 or whatever. Just like the 060 is an implementation of the 68k ISA.


BUT Motorola had the original information to work from.  not a interpretion of the manuals available.  they had the real thing.



Quote

Why insist on using a technically incorrect term? You can call a "current source" a "voltage source" but it will be wrong. But on the positive side it shows everybody that is skilled in the art that you have no clue.


WHY insist that it is built on something when it is built on an interpretion how it work?  JUST like any emulator is.  it is done after "best effort" but for sure not after the real thing.  for the user there is zero difference.  just different type of layers.     fpga is not emulation. NO!  true.  but the endresult is exactly as if it was.  the only difference was IF motorola replaced their ASIC and went FPGA with a 1:1 copy of their design.  THEN I would accept "implementation"    as the 080.  not a single bit is a real copy of it.

so it is just word-picking..  nothing else
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 07, 2018, 06:22:35 PM
Quote from: Chucky;837056
BUT Motorola had the original information to work from.  not a interpretion of the manuals available.  they had the real thing.

Nonsense. They did the exact same thing: define the 68k ISA on paper and then build the chip. They didn't throw together a bunch of gates, looked what it did and then wrote the documentation...

And as already mentioned, we do have the "real thing": lots of Amigas with 68000, 020, 030, 040 and 060 to look at.

And btw, Motorola failed at implementing what they had written beforehand which is why there are the silicon errata documenting where they failed for which mask revision of the various 68k processors.

All operating systems, all compilers, all assemblers and all software are written abiding by the _documentation_ of the 68k ISA.


Quote
the only difference was IF motorola replaced their ASIC and went FPGA with a 1:1 copy of their design.

Since Motorola didn't implement any of their 68k using a synthesisable HDL, impossible. And if they did, they would just "interpret" their own ASIC, to use your shrewed terminology.


Quote
THEN I would accept "implementation"    as the 080.  not a single bit is a real copy of it.

Even if you refuse to accept that you are male, you won't be able to have babies. And nobody ever claimed the 080 was a "real copy" of anything. It is a real and very powerful implementation of the 68k ISA.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 07, 2018, 06:49:37 PM
Quote from: grond;837057
And nobody ever claimed the 080 was a "real copy" of anything. It is a real and very powerful implementation of the 68k ISA.

Does it really matter in the end? The point is: The FPGA does something pretty similar as the 68K (unfortunately, not always really the same and probably not yet good enough for my use case), and the concept avoids all the problems of software based emulators, namely inconsistent performance.

It's just a matter of naming, nothing else. If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck... chance is, it is a duck.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: ShK on March 07, 2018, 07:18:06 PM
Does CR-RW emulate CD-ROM? That's FPGA is, a CD-RW. And 080 is a 68k CPU.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: wawrzon on March 07, 2018, 08:21:18 PM
Quote from: Chucky;837056
BUT..


but why do you come to every thread about apollo/vampire and raise completely insignificant issues, be it even insistance on your personally preferred naming convention, right or wrong?

the discussion about fpu precision, prior to your interruption is something essential and might actually have positive outcome for vampire customers, apparently it even already has. the question if fpga is implementation, emulation, simulation or whatever you fancy to call it, is completely hollow.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Lord Aga on March 07, 2018, 09:09:42 PM
Quote from: ShK;837060
Does CR-RW emulate CD-ROM? That's FPGA is, a CD-RW. And 080 is a 68k CPU.


And the 68020 is just a 68000 emulator because it copies the behavior of the 'original' (sometimes not very accurately). :lol:
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: wawrzon on March 07, 2018, 09:20:30 PM
@thor and fpu experts

by the way allow me a quick question ot, as accidentaly a piece of code im working on touches the subject of precision. what do you think should i define or undefine DOUBLE_CONVERSION_CORRECT_DOUBLE_OPERATIONS for m68k (with fpu assumably) in this respect?

Code: [Select]

// Double operations detection based on target architecture.
// Linux uses a 80bit wide floating point stack on x86. This induces double
// rounding, which in turn leads to wrong results.
// An easy way to test if the floating-point operations are correct is to
// evaluate: 89255.0/1e22. If the floating-point stack is 64 bits wide then
// the result is equal to 89255e-22.
// The best way to test this, is to create a division-function and to compare
// the output of the division with the expected result. (Inlining must be
// disabled.)
// On Linux,x86 89255e-22 != Div_double(89255.0/1e22)
#if defined(_M_X64) || defined(__x86_64__) || \
defined(__ARMEL__) || \
defined(_MIPS_ARCH_MIPS32R2)
#define DOUBLE_CONVERSION_CORRECT_DOUBLE_OPERATIONS 1
#elif CPU(MIPS) || CPU(MIPS64) || CPU(PPC) || CPU(PPC64) || CPU(PPC64LE) || CPU(SH4) || CPU(S390) || CPU(S390X) || CPU(IA64) || CPU(ALPHA) || CPU(ARM64) || CPU(HPPA)
#define DOUBLE_CONVERSION_CORRECT_DOUBLE_OPERATIONS 1
#elif defined(_M_IX86) || defined(__i386__)
#if defined(_WIN32)
// Windows uses a 64bit wide floating point stack.
#define DOUBLE_CONVERSION_CORRECT_DOUBLE_OPERATIONS 1
#else
#undef DOUBLE_CONVERSION_CORRECT_DOUBLE_OPERATIONS
#endif  // _WIN32
#else
#error Target architecture was not detected as supported by Double-Conversion.
#endif
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: ALB42 on March 07, 2018, 09:24:54 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;837066
@thor and fpu experts

by the way allow me a quick question ot, as accidentaly a piece of code im working on touches the subject of precision. what do you think should i define or undefine DOUBLE_CONVERSION_CORRECT_DOUBLE_OPERATIONS for m68k (with fpu assumably) in this respect?

Code: [Select]
// Double operations detection based on target architecture.
// Linux uses a 80bit wide floating point stack on x86. This induces double
// rounding, which in turn leads to wrong results.

because 68881/68882 68040/68060 will also do so (use 80 bit like x86/x87) I would say for m68k this define should not be set, did you check what kind of code is switched with that define?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: UberFreak on March 07, 2018, 09:25:47 PM
This discussion is somewhat entertaining and incredibly pointless at the same time.

Going by this logic, is the Amiga 1000 emulating (sorry, "interpreting") Lorraine, using ASICs ? :)

PS: sorry for OT
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: LoadWB on March 07, 2018, 09:35:10 PM
Quote from: UberFreak;837068
This discussion is somewhat entertaining and incredibly pointless at the same time.

Going by this logic, is the Amiga 1000 emulating (sorry, "interpreting") Lorraine, using ASICs ? :)

PS: sorry for OT


I don't think anyone around here cares anymore about threads getting all shytted up with tangential arguments and shyt-slinging.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: wawrzon on March 07, 2018, 09:43:19 PM
Quote from: ALB42;837067
because 68881/68882 68040/68060 will also do so (use 80 bit like x86/x87) I would say for m68k this define should not be set,

i suspected so.
Quote
did you check what kind of code is switched with that define?

its a huge project and i fear it uses a lot of fpu. just want to get it compile for 68k first;)
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 07, 2018, 09:45:29 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;837066
@thor and fpu experts

by the way allow me a quick question ot, as accidentaly a piece of code im working on touches the subject of precision. what do you think should i define or undefine DOUBLE_CONVERSION_CORRECT_DOUBLE_OPERATIONS for m68k (with fpu assumably) in this respect?

I probably do not understand the question to full extend. However, *if* you configure a native 68K FPU to double precision (the FPCR allows that), then it works fully in accordance with the IEEE double precision rules, including rounding. If you leave it at 80bits precision, then some results may be more precise (and by that different) from what a fully compliant double precision FPU would get.

This is why it is so important to have the FPU properly configured for the math libraries. Or actually, the math libraries do the proper configuration, but only for the task that opened the library.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: wawrzon on March 07, 2018, 10:16:05 PM
@alb42&thor
thx for the input. ill have to keep it in mind as potential source of trouble and leave for further investigation later. im past this point for now so lets return to the topic.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: ALB42 on March 07, 2018, 10:17:46 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;837071
I probably do not understand the question to full extend. However, *if* you configure a native 68K FPU to double precision (the FPCR allows that), then it works fully in accordance with the IEEE double precision rules, including rounding. If you leave it at 80bits precision, then some results may be more precise (and by that different) from what a fully compliant double precision FPU would get.

yes and no, because m68k FPUs always calculate everything in extended precision see also:

http://www.intel-assembler.it/portale/5/motorola-fpu-programming/68881-68882-68040-command-reference.asp

Quote
2.2.1.1  Floating point data registers

  The data registers always contain an 80 bit wide extended precision
  floating point number.  Before any floating point data is used in
  calculation, it is converted to extended-precision.
  For example, the instruction   FMOVE.L #10,FP3  converts the
  longword #10 to extended precision before transferring it to register
  FP3.  All calculations with the FPU uses the internal registers
  as either source or destination, or both.

Thats the reason it make no big difference on m68k if you calculate
in single or double (only more memory needed)
This difference can lead to different results at the edge of precision and if you make heavy calculations also a inside the save precision area.
You can see that in the link I posted before. The linux x64 and m68k vary from each other at the edge of precision, even both should get the same result (x64 always do 64 bit calculation with SSE2/3, m68k always do 80 bit) and I guess thats what this define is all about.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 07, 2018, 10:21:09 PM
Quote from: grond;837044
You clearly have no clue. A CPU built from discrete gates IS a CPU and thus not an emulation. Hence, it is _implemented_ using gates, not emulated.


If I make a real CPU which emulates a 6502, it's emulation. It's not a real 6502.

You are emulating an idiot. You're still a real human being.

Quote from: ShK;837060
Does CR-RW emulate CD-ROM? That's FPGA is, a CD-RW. And 080 is a 68k CPU.


CD-RW and CD-ROM are actually quite different in their properties & have no logic. It's quite a crazy analogy, a real straw man. But in keeping with media analogies, Alot of Compact flash cards can emulate IDE hard drives. SATA controllers can emulate IDE controllers.

It's no different to sound blaster emulation or epson printer emulation back in the 1980's. Those were also real hardware that weren't running a software emulation.

Quote from: ALB42;837074
The linux x64 and m68k vary from each other at the edge of precision, even both should get the same result (x64 always do 64 bit calculation with SSE2/3, m68k always do 80 bit) and I guess thats what this define is all about.


I work on a big software project and we've recently ditched x87 support on our 32 bit builds because the precision was different to the sse used in the x64 builds. We lost support for a few cpus that were still technically possible to run, but the results are now the same.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 07, 2018, 10:56:28 PM
Quote from: psxphill;837075
If I make a real CPU which emulates a 6502, it's emulation. It's not a real 6502.

A "real CPU that emulates a 6502" would be e.g. a i7 running a VIC20 emulator. If the "real CPU" executes 6502 code natively, then you  _implemented_ a 6502.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 07, 2018, 11:07:05 PM
Quote from: grond;837080
A "real CPU that emulates a 6502" would be e.g. a i7 running a VIC20 emulator. If the "real CPU" executes 6502 code natively, then you  _implemented_ a 6502.

If you make something capable of running 6502 programmes using TTL then it most certainly is not a 6502.

If you take the 6502 decap and use the die shots to make masks & run a chip fab in your kitchen then you can claim to have made a 6502. Anything else and it's just pretending to be a 6502, AKA emulating.

A hardware emulation is still an emulation.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: NorthWay on March 08, 2018, 01:05:51 AM
Quote from: psxphill;837081
If you make something capable of running 6502 programmes using TTL then it most certainly is not a 6502.

"If you make Lorraine capable of running Amiga programmes using TTL then it most certainly is not a Amiga"
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Niding on March 08, 2018, 05:17:41 AM
One of the first topics I saw on forums when I returned to the Amiga community was "its emulation!" "No its not".

Rinse repeat for pages and threads.

Its quite mindboggeling that people in their 30s-40s++ can keep THIS up for decades.

I dont do this often, but to quote Trump "Its SAD! Believe me!".
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 08, 2018, 05:23:46 AM
Quote from: psxphill;837081
If you make something capable of running 6502 programmes using TTL then it most certainly is not a 6502.

If you take the 6502 decap and use the die shots to make masks & run a chip fab in your kitchen then you can claim to have made a 6502. Anything else and it's just pretending to be a 6502, AKA emulating.


Aha. So if I built my 6502 as a silicon chip without looking at the 6502 die and by accident came up with the identical netlist as what you consider a 6502, what would it be? Emulation or the real thing? Seems to be some philosophical straw you are clutching at.

BTW, nobody claims the 68080 was a Motorola 68000, 68010, 68020, 68030, 68040 or 68060, remember? It isn't emulating any of them either, not even when applying the meaning you like to give that word. The 68080 implements the _68k ISA_. And it is implemented in an FPGA.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: IanP on March 08, 2018, 05:27:42 AM
Quote from: psxphill;837081
If you make something capable of running 6502 programmes using TTL then it most certainly is not a 6502.

If you take the 6502 decap and use the die shots to make masks & run a chip fab in your kitchen then you can claim to have made a 6502. Anything else and it's just pretending to be a 6502, AKA emulating.

A hardware emulation is still an emulation.
Which "6502" is the real one that you need to decap to make your own one? The first publicly available one from 1975 with all the bugs, the one from 76 which fixed the ROR bug, the later CMOS version that fixed the 'JMP ($xxFF)' bug amongst other and added additional instructions and addressing modes or one of the dozens if not hundreds of variants that have been designed and manufactured by several companies over the past 40 odd years. By your definition everything but the 1975 die ones are just pretending to be a 6502 AKA emulating one I suppose? :rofl:
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 08, 2018, 06:16:45 AM
Quote from: ALB42;837074
yes and no, because m68k FPUs always calculate everything in extended precision see also:
Hold on! You miss something here. IEEE floating point has rouding and guard and sticky bits for a reason. The reason is the following: If you first compute with infinite precision (if you could) and then would round to the target precision, the result is the same as if you would first compute with finite precision (plus round, guard and sticky bit) and then would use the three extra bits to round off the result according to the IEEE rounding rules.

Hence, whether the 68882 uses internally 80 bits or 64 bits does not matter. If you switch it to "double precision rounding" with the fpcr, then the result will always be "double correct" as if the computation was performed all the way in double.

So, unlike you claim, there is no difference between a "truncated to 64 bit FPU" and a "80 FPU with 64 bit rounding".
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 08, 2018, 08:17:58 AM
Quote from: grond;837096
Aha. So if I built my 6502 as a silicon chip without looking at the 6502 die and by accident came up with the identical netlist as what you consider a 6502, what would it be? Emulation or the real thing? Seems to be some philosophical straw you are clutching at.

You're the one that is trying to break my argument by using stupid philosophical arguments. It's impossible that you will happen to create an identical mask without referencing the original.

Quote from: IanP;837097
Which "6502" is the real one that you need to decap to make your own one?

It depends which behaviour you want, it's often important to get the correct one for your application.

Quote from: IanP;837097
By your definition everything but the 1975 die ones are just pretending to be a 6502 AKA emulating one I suppose? :rofl:

No, that is by your definition. I don't consider someone speaking to be doing an impression of themselves, even though over time you have cells die and new ones grow & are no longer the exact same person with the exact same abilities.

Going back on topic. VHDL is a language, like any other programming language. It allows you to control the gates in an FPGA, like you can control the gates in a CPU. You can implement a 6502 in C running on an x86 or implement a 6520 in verilog running on an fpga. Both are emulating certain behaviours of a 6502.

Quote from: grond;837096
BTW, nobody claims the 68080 was a Motorola 68000, 68010, 68020, 68030, 68040 or 68060, remember?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus == strawman, got it?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 08, 2018, 08:32:50 AM
Quote from: psxphill;837102
You're the one that is trying to break my argument by using stupid philosophical arguments, I didn't come here to discuss
 Yes, you came here to make statements:  
Quote from: psxphill;837032
I know what an FPGA is & I know what emulation is.

Apollo is not a software emulator written for a general purpose computer, but that isn't all that "Emulation" is.

You can emulate a cpu with 74ls chips if you really wanted. http://www.baltissen.org/newhtm/ttl6502.htm

And you clearly want to remain ignorant about the subject you are commenting on. But I guess this is as close to admitting you were wrong and have no arguments left as your personality will ever allow you to get.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 08, 2018, 08:53:22 AM
Quote from: grond;837103
And you clearly want to remain ignorant about the subject you are commenting on. But I guess this is as close to admitting you were wrong and have no arguments left as your personality will ever allow you to get.

The only thing I admit to is letting you troll me with your straw men.

My point is clear, your religious hatred of the word emulation is making you unable to see it. So much so that you apply magical qualities to the word implement.

But I guess you have your reasons. I'll let you get on with pretending that emulating a CPU in an FPGA isn't emulation, if it makes you happy.

If you ever are interested in a reasoned debate then I will consider it, but I very much doubt that your personality will ever let that happen.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 08, 2018, 08:58:41 AM
Quote from: psxphill;837102
Going back on topic. VHDL is a language, like any other programming language. It allows you to control the gates in an FPGA, like you can control the gates in a CPU. You can implement a 6502 in C running on an x86 or implement a 6520 in verilog running on an fpga. Both are emulating certain behaviours of a 6502.

BTW, this clearly demonstrates that you don't know what you are talking about. VHDL is not a "language like any other programming language". It is a _hardware description_ language, not a _programming language_. It's like saying that you could write a true equivalence of Shakespeares body of work in Inuit because it is just another language like English is. Unfortunately you'll end up with lots of words to describe snow but none to describe a half of what Shakespeare described. And the differences between a hardware description language and a programming language are far bigger than that. One to start with is that there is no concept of parallelism in any of the programming languages I'm familiar with and certainly not in C. That is also why you need a high MHz CPU interpreting foreign CPU code of a 6502 or 68k while you only need an FPGA running at 80 MHz to exceed 68060 speed as demonstrated by the Apollo Core.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 08, 2018, 09:01:48 AM
Quote from: psxphill;837104
But I guess you have your reasons.

My reason is that I have a PhD degree in microelectronics and as a scientist in this field like using correct terminology. And I don't like being taught about my art by somebody who doesn't know sh1t about it. If you want to discuss with the big boys, you'll have to make sure you are understood or shut up.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Chucky on March 08, 2018, 09:08:32 AM
As I told. word-picking.   even if VHDL is not a real "programminglanguage"  for the user it behaves somewhat similiar.     and that the 080 is bases on a reverseengineering. while when motorola did the 000,010 etc.  they for sure did not start from scratch everytime.   actually a potential bug could be moved from 68000 -> 68060  as it is a lot of "copy and paste"    so  all this emulation vs nonemulation is just picky with words.  the end result when it comes to how the final product behaves is pretty much the same.   emulator or fpga.  as both still is based on a reverseengineering perspective than what motorola could do as they actually have the real data. and I guess if motorla did a open version of a FPGA 68k (any), not much would be the same as TG68 OR the 080.

And that is my very point of this, you can call it emulation, simulation, implementation
 but it would still not be a exact copy of the real thing and in the end. it all narrows down to what you would get with a emulated product, close enough but not the real deal.  simple.     anyway. I agree.  this is off topic.  so.  stepping out of this thread.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 08, 2018, 09:14:13 AM
Quote from: grond;837105
BTW, this clearly demonstrates that you don't know what you are talking about. VHDL is not a "language like any other programming language". It is a _hardware description_ language, not a _programming language_.

I don't get how you can argue that a Language used for Programming is not a programming language.

Field Programmable Logic Array. VHSIC Hardware Description Language

VHDL borrows heavily from the Ada programming language in both concepts and syntax.

Quote from: grond;837105
It's like saying that you could write a true equivalence of Shakespeares body of work in Inuit because it is just another language like English is.

No, that would be a straw man. A common occurrence in your attempts to derail any discussion.

This particular one seems to be aimed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness

Quote from: grond;837105
One to start with is that there is no concept of parallelism in any of the programming languages I'm familiar with

That is your ignorance showing. Not all programming languages are procedural.

With OpenCL you can:
 Leverage CPUs and GPUs to accelerate parallel computation
 Get dramatic speedups for computationally intensive applications

https://developer.amd.com/wordpress/media/2012/10/OpenCL_Parallel_Computing_for_CPUs_and_GPUs_201003.pdf

Over time it's likely we'll see more software switch to GPGPU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General-purpose_computing_on_graphics_processing_units
To the point that WinUAE will have some of the same advantages as an FPGA emulation of a 68k amiga (eg generate the video on the graphics card to remove a layer of latency in the OS).

Quote from: grond;837105
That is also why you need a high MHz CPU interpreting foreign CPU code of a 6502 or 68k while you only need an FPGA running at 80 MHz to exceed 68060 speed as demonstrated by the Apollo Core.

Sure. I understand that, but it doesn't solve any issue of whether that is emulation or not. We know that dedicating logic gates to a particular task has a greater efficiency than time sharing them. It's an implementation detail.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 08, 2018, 09:24:11 AM
Quote from: Chucky;837107
And that is my very point of this, you can call it emulation, simulation, implementation but it would still not be a exact copy of the real thing and in the end. it all narrows down to what you would get with a emulated product, close enough but not the real deal.  simple.     anyway. I agree.  this is off topic.  so.  stepping out of this thread.

The 68060 is neither an exact copy of the 68000. Actually, it works entirely different. The latter is microcoded, the former is not. So, one could even say that the 68000 is a "bad software emulation" of a 68060 - to a certain degree, the 68000 does everyhing "step by step" in a microcoded CPU by some sort of software for which the 68060 has silicon gates. So which one is the real thing and which one is not?

In the end, it does not make a freaking difference. The chip is "real enough" for many users. Probably not for my use case, but that's a different story and not related how you call it what it does.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 08, 2018, 09:36:20 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;837109
The latter is microcoded, the former is not.

Whether it's microcoded or not is an implementation detail. Whether a 68060 was emulating a 68000 is up to Motorola to decide, like Ship of Theseus.

A 65816 can emulate a 6502. A NEC V30 can emulate an 8080.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;837109
The chip is "real enough" for many users. Probably not for my use case, but that's a different story and not related how you call it what it does.

As Winuae is real enough for many users, both have pros and cons in their implementation. Saying it's not emulation is an attempt to create a religious following that overlooks the downsides, because "it's always better because it's not emulation".
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 08, 2018, 09:55:36 AM
Quote from: psxphill;837110
Whether it's microcoded or not is an implementation detail. Whether a 68060 was emulating a 68000 is up to Motorola to decide, like Ship of Theseus.
Whether it is implemented on an FPGA and written in VHDL is an implementation detail as well.

Quote from: psxphill;837110
As Winuae is real enough for many users, both have pros and cons in their implementation.
For me, it's not. WinUAE delivers inconsistent performance, and I require a windows system. Certainly, it's an achievement as far as software is concerned. But pay Microsoft for Amiga Software? I don't think so.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 08, 2018, 10:29:43 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;837111
But pay Microsoft for Amiga Software? I don't think so.


WinUAE does not require Windows, just saying.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: OlafS3 on March 08, 2018, 11:05:09 AM
Quote from: psxphill;837110
Whether it's microcoded or not is an implementation detail. Whether a 68060 was emulating a 68000 is up to Motorola to decide, like Ship of Theseus.

A 65816 can emulate a 6502. A NEC V30 can emulate an 8080.



As Winuae is real enough for many users, both have pros and cons in their implementation. Saying it's not emulation is an attempt to create a religious following that overlooks the downsides, because "it's always better because it's not emulation".


it is a rather weird discussion and not really related to Gold 2.7 Core. There are thousands of customers who are very happy with Vampire and do not give a %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@! if it is Asic or in this case implemented in a FPGA. It is nearest to real hardware but it can evolve (in opposite to a silicon chip). Also pressing silicon would cost a fortune and is only a option if the product is really finished (feature wise) and tested. Most users are happy with what they get, even with the direction, a couple of not but those could sell it without loosing money. Then there are people critisizing the direction while not owning it and with propably no intention to ever buy it what is a little strange. For some hardcore users it is not real enough so they prefer the old hardware. Others are happy with emulation and do not need hardware to be happy. Everybody can decide what he prefers. This whole "FPGA is emulation" discussion is really weird, if FPGA based solutions are not your interest then simply do not buy it.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 08, 2018, 01:42:52 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;837115
This whole "FPGA is emulation" discussion is really weird, if FPGA based solutions are not your interest then simply do not buy it.

You missed the point. Saying that the FPGA is being used to emulate various parts of an Amiga system, is not a criticism of the product. Only a criticism of the way in which people speak about it.

By their own admission the v2 is too limited for the full Apollo core, so unless Gunnar has an epiphany that allows him to shrink it then I'm at least waiting for a v4. Also the lack of source means that I'll wait until the features I want are done, in case he gets knocked over by a bus.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;837111
For me, it's not. WinUAE delivers inconsistent performance, and I require a windows system. Certainly, it's an achievement as far as software is concerned. But pay Microsoft for Amiga Software? I don't think so.

I used WinUAE as an example because it's most convenient for most people. I don't see requiring windows as a huge problem, if you do then there are other options. I'd still like to see a native 68k JIT for x64 hardware that allows you to run 68k AmigaOS as close to the metal as possible & with as little hardware emulation as possible. Then stage two would be to throw PowerPC into the mix. I've got too many porting projects keeping me busy at the moment to do it myself.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Louis Dias on March 08, 2018, 03:40:08 PM
Apparenntly...  The "Win" in "WinUAE" doesn't stand for "Windows"...  Now I've heard everything...
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 08, 2018, 05:02:05 PM
Quote from: lou_dias;837125
Apparenntly...  The "Win" in "WinUAE" doesn't stand for "Windows"...  Now I've heard everything...
Sure does, but Windows is not a requirement, for example it works also with WINE (and iirc also ReactOS).
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guibrush on March 09, 2018, 01:19:42 PM
So, is WINE a Windows emulator or a Windows emulation ?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Acill on March 09, 2018, 02:18:08 PM
Quote from: guibrush;837150
So, is WINE a Windows emulator or a Windows emulation ?


WINE isnt an emulator, its an API interpreter. Is a bit more complex than just emulating expected hardware, this returns software calls the program running expects to see on a windows machine and allows it to mostly run. Some better than others.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 10, 2018, 08:04:20 AM
Quote from: Acill;837153
WINE isnt an emulator, its an API interpreter. Is a bit more complex than just emulating expected hardware, this returns software calls the program running expects to see on a windows machine and allows it to mostly run. Some better than others.

From wikipedia

"Wine emulates the Windows runtime environment by translating Windows system calls into POSIX-compliant system calls"

"The name Wine initially was an abbreviation for Windows Emulator.[16] Wine later shifted to the recursive backronym Wine Is Not an Emulator in order to differentiate the software from CPU emulators"

A better acronym that doesn't contradict what it is but still avoid misunderstandings would be "Wine is Natively Executed".

They made the mistake of thinking emulation was all about the CPU, but the BBC emulator for the c64 http://csdb.dk/release/?id=39817 doesn't emulate the CPU. Neither does the VIC emulator for the c64 from 1985 https://archive.org/details/1985-09-computegazette.

I don't see any practical difference with Wine.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 10, 2018, 10:40:06 AM
Mac and Atari emulators on Amiga do not emulate CPU either. But there is more to emulate than just the CPU.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: PPC on March 10, 2018, 11:45:48 AM
Maybe this topic should be renamed to: As The world Turns

/me pops out the popcorn for another episode!
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Motormouth on March 10, 2018, 04:54:28 PM
Quote from: PPC;837178
Maybe this topic should be renamed to: As The world Turns

/me pops out the popcorn for another episode!


You mean, "As the Boing Ball Turns" ;)
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: nicholas on March 11, 2018, 11:27:14 AM
Quote from: guibrush;837150
So, is WINE a Windows emulator or a Windows emulation ?


WINE is an open source implementation of the publicly available Win32 APIs.

Related projects:
Windows Services for Linux is an implementation of the Linux kernel APIs.
AROS is an implementation of the Amiga APIs.
Haiku is an implementation of the BEOS API's.
GNU is an implementation (and extension) of the UNIX APIs.
Android is an implementation of the Java APIs.

And so on.....  No emulation involved.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: pcotter on March 12, 2018, 09:11:22 PM
The " Quake enabler core"

https://youtu.be/3gAdIPwRzRo
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 15, 2018, 01:59:51 PM
Quote from: nicholas;837216
WINE is an open source implementation of the publicly available Win32 APIs.


Vice is an open source implementation of the C64.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 16, 2018, 11:51:38 AM
Quote from: psxphill;837360
Vice is an open source implementation of the C64.


A C64 is just a simulation of a Turing Machine.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: LoadWB on March 16, 2018, 12:56:42 PM
Quote from: kolla;837400
A C64 is just a simulation of a Turing Machine.


But what exactly does the Turing Machine simulate? And what has any of this to do with the recent release of a firmware update for the Vampire?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 16, 2018, 02:29:15 PM
Quote from: LoadWB;837404
But what exactly does the Turing Machine simulate?
Whatever it is supposed to simulate. It is rather a mental model of a very simple computing machine that is, however, powerful enough to emulate any other computer. Albeit in a potentially very slow way, and providing output and collecting input that is "less attractive" to the end user, to put it mildly.

Quote from: LoadWB;837404
And what has any of this to do with the recent release of a firmware update for the Vampire?

What does all this talk about simulation and emulation have to do with it? Right, exactly nothing.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: midway on March 16, 2018, 03:06:55 PM
You know nothing, Jon Snow....

Did someome try Lightwave with the updated core?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Gulliver on March 16, 2018, 03:37:27 PM
Simulation, emulation, Motorola, or asic I couldnt care less.

It is about choices: just pick the one you desire most for whatever reason, and let others do their own thing too.

It is okay to have your strong points towards your own choices, we all do. But after having discussions we should all realize that we are in the same hobby.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: gregthecanuck on March 17, 2018, 03:16:08 AM
There is a Gold 2.8 release coming soon.

The biggest news is that it enables use of the expansion port.

More info here: http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=6¬e=13305
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: nicholas on March 17, 2018, 01:05:48 PM
Quote from: kolla;837400
A C64 is just a simulation of a Turing Machine.


Amiga OS4 is an emulation of Workbench 3.1 eh?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: nicholas on March 17, 2018, 01:07:08 PM
Quote from: LoadWB;837404
But what exactly does the Turing Machine simulate? And what has any of this to do with the recent release of a firmware update for the Vampire?


Absolutely sod all. The ASD on this forum is strong though.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: nicholas on March 17, 2018, 01:08:22 PM
Quote from: gregthecanuck;837437
There is a Gold 2.8 release coming soon.

The biggest news is that it enables use of the expansion port.

More info here: http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=6¬e=13305


What's the latest news on a vampire for A3000/4000?

Still far away?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: TrashyMG on March 17, 2018, 01:21:56 PM
Quote from: midway;837411
You know nothing, Jon Snow....

Did someome try Lightwave with the updated core?

Yeah it works fine,

Away from home so can't make my own video yet.

But here are some youtube links:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSrnbSjsSnE
https://youtu.be/pyyCnH8Uy7c?t=203
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: midway on March 18, 2018, 05:23:18 AM
Cool ! thanks mate
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: AmigaOldskooler on March 18, 2018, 04:27:53 PM
Thanks to the team for update 2.8. Installed it today. :) Works great here so far! Love the Vampire! :) Made a blog-post about it was well. Sorry for bad sound in the vids. Both caught with my mobile phone.

https://oldschoolgameblog.com/2018/03/18/installation-of-the-gold-2-8-core-on-vampire-v2-500/ (https://oldschoolgameblog.com/2018/03/18/installation-of-the-gold-2-8-core-on-vampire-v2-500/)
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 18, 2018, 04:39:20 PM
Quote from: AmigaOldskooler;837493
Works great here so far!

Is it "spreadsheet compatible" yet?
What does Calculator say that 1.1 - 1 is now with Gold Core 2.8?

EDIT: Never mind - did it myself...
(http://www.amiga.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=204&pictureid=1436)
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: sean_sk on March 19, 2018, 03:56:23 AM
This can be fixed by turning off FPU in CLI.

I mentioned about this to a friend of mine who is a programmer and he said that this kind of thing is quite common when it comes to floating point calculations and is unsurprised by it. He comes across this often when programming. He referred me to a couple of links regarding this, although they primarily relate to Python.

http://effbot.org/pyfaq/why-are-floating-point-calculations-so-inaccurate.htm
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/21895756/why-are-floating-point-numbers-inaccurate
https://docs.python.org/3.4/tutorial/floatingpoint.html
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 19, 2018, 07:25:22 AM
Quote from: sean_skroht;837510
This can be fixed by turning off FPU in CLI.

That is not a fix, but rather a work-around. Also, I have not found any way to let the "FPU" be permanently off, using VControl to turn it off causes a reboot into "FPU less" environment, but on next reboot, it is back on.

Quote
I mentioned about this to a friend of mine who is a programmer and he said that this kind of thing is quite common when it comes to floating point calculations and is unsurprised by it. He comes across this often when programming.

Nobody is surprised, this type of incompatibility was expected all along, and they should be taken care of. I suppose Apollo Core specific math libraries would be another work-around, though it would not help for programs not using them. Best would be if this was fixed in the core itself.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 19, 2018, 06:25:31 PM
Quote from: sean_skroht;837510
I mentioned about this to a friend of mine who is a programmer and he said that this kind of thing is quite common when it comes to floating point calculations and is unsurprised by it.

Right. It's unsurprising that if you calculate the values differently to how the 6888x and 040/060 fpu calculate it, that you would get the wrong values.

Quote from: sean_skroht;837510
He comes across this often when programming.

On new software you can add workrounds in the source to make it work right when you recompile it using a different FPU (like using SSE instead of x87). When taking the same executable on different x86 cpus made by Intel or AMD then you'd expect the same result, or it's a bug that needs fixing (famously Intel did have a bug which they fixed and sent out replacement CPU's).

With old 680x0 software that you don't have the source for, it's not so easy to add workrounds and this particular situation really doesn't come up often when your friend is programming.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 19, 2018, 06:32:34 PM
Quote from: nicholas;837454
Amiga OS4 is an emulation of Workbench 3.1 eh?

No, AmigaOS 4 is official. Therefore it's fine for marketing to say it's backward compatible with Amiga OS 3.1 as there is some lineage. The marketing department could decide to call it emulation, if they wanted to though.

AROS emulates the Amiga API. It's perfectly possible to emulate API's without doing anything that a machine emulator like dosbox/vice/uae does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNlMIa-YOnM
https://archive.codeplex.com/?p=bemu

People who repeatedly use the narrow definition of Emulate make themselves look stupid. It doesn't mean a piece of software fetching opcodes and interpreting them, that is only one type of emulation.

There are so many uses of the word emulator that doesn't match the narrow definition, that I'm surprised you haven't heard of them. Terminal emulator, Hercules graphics card emulation, CGA graphics card emulation, sound blaster emulation. History is full of examples.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Louis Dias on March 19, 2018, 10:56:19 PM
This has happened on every platform (from C64 to x64) I've coded on and why in Windows I now use "decimal" instead of floats or doubles...

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/618535/difference-between-decimal-float-and-double-in-net
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 19, 2018, 11:15:28 PM
Quote from: lou_dias;837534
This has happened on every platform (from C64 to x64) I've coded on and why in Windows I now use "decimal" instead of floats or doubles...

And when you say "in Windows", you mean .NET, right?

How various floats are defined vary with the languages used, how the various languages used on Amiga will deal with this when running on AC68080 is anyone's guess I suppose. Is there even a way for software to know whether they are running on a "full" AC68080 FPU or just the limited, stripped down variant in the current Vampire boards? Is it clear exactly what kind of accuracy the Apollo Core FPU for V2 Vampires is operating with? I have only seen guesses by various programmers (alb42), the information on the "official sites" do not offer much insight. Is the current FPU implementation "done deal", or will it be improved upon further (aside from straight out bugs)?

In any case, we don't have the luxury of a thriving and active developer community on the Amiga, let alone commercial support from Microsoft and the like. What we have is a library of legacy software for which the source code mostly is lost or not available for legal /copyright reasons. And even when sources are available, porting them to current toolchains can quickly be a daunting task in itself.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 20, 2018, 06:08:39 AM
Quote from: lou_dias;837534
This has happened on every platform (from C64 to x64) I've coded on
Hopefully not. Did you notice that the result is just plain wrong? I mean, not only "off" by one ulp, but wrong?

Quote from: lou_dias;837534
and why in Windows I now use "decimal" instead of floats or doubles...
which, of course, doesn't solve the problem, but only masks it. You get other round-off errors, and in most cases, worse round-off errors because, internally, the system still works in binary.

What we have here is just a bug. Ok, that stuff happens, but I wonder where the thousands of test cases were?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 20, 2018, 06:11:14 AM
Quote from: psxphill;837524
Right. It's unsurprising that if you calculate the values differently to how the 6888x and 040/060 fpu calculate it, that you would get the wrong values.
It does not matter whether it computes the values "differently" as long as the result is correct. It is not, so the algorithm is not only "different", it is just "wrong".

This does not require a workaround in third party software (why? Wasn't the point of this project not exactly *not* to depend on workarounds), it just requires a fix.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: UberFreak on March 20, 2018, 12:46:16 PM
Quote from: psxphill;837525
AROS emulates the Amiga API.


Nope, it implements it.
An API is just a set of functions, you don't emulate it, you implement it.
There can be multiple different implementations for the same API, but it has nothing to do with emulation.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 20, 2018, 12:58:43 PM
Quote from: UberFreak;837544
Nope, it implements it.
An API is just a set of functions, you don't emulate it, you implement it.
There can be multiple different implementations for the same API, but it has nothing to do with emulation.

Well, this all depends on the false assumption that AmigaOs has something like a API. (-; In fact, it is a big pile of mess, where the "API" goes deep into "undocumented behaviour of the Os structures you are supposed to know but it is nowhere documented".

One way or another, this is a pretty mood discussion. No matter whether this is emulation or implementation. If AROS re-implements the design bugs of AmigaOs, is this good or bad?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 20, 2018, 02:36:48 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;837545

One way or another, this is a pretty mood discussion.


:lol:

I suppose you meant "moot", but "mood" does fit perfectly too :laughing:
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: spaceman88 on March 20, 2018, 03:50:07 PM
Quote from: lou_dias;837534
This has happened on every platform (from C64 to x64) I've coded on and why in Windows I now use "decimal" instead of floats or doubles...

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/618535/difference-between-decimal-float-and-double-in-net


I remember being accused of cheating on my computer programming assignment when my result did NOT end in .99999999999. I had used my TI99/4A instead of one the Commodore PET's in the computer lab. The TI would spit out even #'s like "10" instead of "9.999999999" that the PET's would show.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Louis Dias on March 21, 2018, 12:33:02 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;837539
Hopefully not. Did you notice that the result is just plain wrong? I mean, not only "off" by one ulp, but wrong?

which, of course, doesn't solve the problem, but only masks it. You get other round-off errors, and in most cases, worse round-off errors because, internally, the system still works in binary.

What we have here is just a bug. Ok, that stuff happens, but I wonder where the thousands of test cases were?
Uh yeah, I was referring to the 6.499999...  In the calculator he had 1.1-1, so it's still floating point rounding error...and again why I use DECIMAL vs single/float/double in code.
In fact, I read somewhere that when a float would return X.99999...It should be considered a whole number (X+1).  That's why lots of code I've seen use Round(x,y) functions around float/double calculations specifying how many digits right of the decimal point they want to see...and again why I prefer to use DECIMAL data-types.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 21, 2018, 01:04:04 PM
Quote from: lou_dias;837564
Uh yeah, I was referring to the 6.499999...  In the calculator he had 1.1-1, so it's still floating point rounding error...and again why I use DECIMAL vs single/float/double in code.
For every number system, you'll find numbers you cannot represent exactly. That goes for binary as it does for decimal. The problem with decimal is that the average round-off error is larger than for binary. Or to be more precise, the binary system minimizes the round-off error of all (symmetric) number systems. So, in that sense, it is the better system.

You would, in typical implementations, convert binary to decimal, then find out the precision limit of the binary implementation in decimal numbers, and then round to the last valid decimal digit. For double precision numbers, you get a precision of 15 plus a bit valid digits, meaning that the last valid decimal digit is 15. This digit needs to be rounded away. As long as you do not make a round-trip from decimal back to binary, all is fine and you do not accumulate errors.

What we have here, however, is a platform that pretends to implement double precision, hence the rounding algorithm in the code (provided by the compiler, in this case) assumes (correctly, so far) that there are 15 valid decimal digits, inspects this digit, and rounds from this digit on. Unfortunately, the CPU only computes with 44 valid bits, instead of the 64 bits required for IEEE double, so it has less valid mantissa bits, thus less valid decimal digits, and thus, the rounding is off.

Hence, not even double precision here, leave alone full 80 bits precision. Too bad. If you want reliable numerics (in the sense of: conforming to what the system expects) you would be left with single precision. Unfortunately, I know exactly zero programs that use it, and not even SAS/C supports IEEE single precision as compiler.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 21, 2018, 01:31:21 PM
Yes, there are two aspects here - there is the technical aspect, and that is all fun and interesting - but then there is the user experience. My examples above are super simple, they demonstrate that Jon "most user" Doe on a Vampire system will face strange formatting issues when he sets up a simple spreadsheet for his shopping list. On the other hand he can instead render a teapot with LightWave (which, if you had suggested doing that on Amiga one year ago now, you would be labeled insane by the Apollo Team following).
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: PPC on March 21, 2018, 04:02:15 PM
Quote from: kolla;837566
Yes, there are two aspects here - there is the technical aspect, and that is all fun and interesting - but then there is the user experience. My examples above are super simple, they demonstrate that Jon "most user" Doe on a Vampire system will face strange formatting issues when he sets up a simple spreadsheet for his shopping list. On the other hand he can instead render a teapot with LightWave (which, if you had suggested doing that on Amiga one year ago now, you would be labeled insane by the Apollo Team following).


Yes Kolla we know...., now please can you quit this childish bashing ?
This is getting so tiresome you derailing/hijacking almost every vampire thread and all that ever comes out of you is pure negativity.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 21, 2018, 06:29:18 PM
Quote from: PPC;837572
all that ever comes out of you is pure negativity.

Not pure, Just 99.999999999998603 % negative, for some strange reason.

Btw, now that it is clear that Tuko is the person behind ApolloOS - is he part of the Apollo Team or is he not? He has labeled himself "Apollo Team" on EAB for example - how was it about ApolloOS _not_ being officially made, endorsed or supported by the team, but rather by some "rabid enthusiast"? I see the kickstarts that comes with cores are pretty much OS3.9 kickstarts, including bits and pieces like the latest shell update from ThoR and more.

As someone who owns two Vampire cards, I want to know the distribution rights and licenses for the software that I have download along with the core updates - is the content of the kickstart exclusively licensed to the Apollo Team? If so, where is the statement from the copyright owners about this? The websites are totally silent, both Tuko's http://www.apollo-accelerators.com and Gunnar's apollo-core.com - the changelog (http://www.apollo-accelerators.com/files/ChangeLog) says nothing.

If there wasn't so much BS surrounding the entire Apollo Core project, there wouldn't be any reason to be stir the pond, but the way the team operates, it is very hard to not raise a few questions - questions that no-one seems willing to answer properly to settle any doubts.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: PPC on March 21, 2018, 07:09:57 PM
Quote from: kolla;837577
Not pure, Just 99.999999999998603 % negative, for some strange reason .


Your rounding seems to be incorrect, you need a decent FPU. :lol:
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Djole on March 21, 2018, 07:46:03 PM
Every day we can see more and more happy Vampire users while the frustration (for the reason below) of the two unhappy pro FPU users keeps growing.

Just to clear up the reason of the frustration for the ones not informed, the "team" publicly made fun of Kolla for his silly "demands" and "suggestions" and now he is on a crusade to hurt them back.... but they still dont seem to care about him :) I guess he will just try harder...
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 21, 2018, 08:54:58 PM
Quote from: kolla;837577
I see the kickstarts that comes with cores are pretty much OS3.9 kickstarts, including bits and pieces like the latest shell update from ThoR and more.
From what I know, the card comes with a 3.1 license, from Cloanto. That is, so far, legit. Cloanto owns the 3.1 kickstart ROM image, but that's as far as it goes. They don't hold a development license for 3.1. Hence, from that perspective, they can hardly distribute modified sources, as "who did the development in first place"? And under whose rights?

What is questionable is the 3.9 stuff - Cloanto doesn't own that - and anything beyond 3.1. There are also good reasons why I do not distribute the shell as stand-alone binary since I neither own that either, and I would kindly ask people to respect this. You can distribute the patch, and you can use the patch if you *own* a 3.9 CD. But that is as far as it goes. I do not have any allowance beyond distribution of the patch, and I only have that because I asked and was granted one.

Quote from: kolla;837577
As someone who owns two Vampire cards, I want to know the distribution rights and licenses for the software that I have download along with the core updates - is the content of the kickstart exclusively licensed to the Apollo Team?
Kolla, what's wrong with you? This is my text. How come you care about copyright lately?

Quote from: kolla;837577
If so, where is the statement from the copyright owners about this?
Probably all waiting for the outcome of the hearing in the US. Should be in March, i.e. around now. We'll see how that goes.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Neuf on March 21, 2018, 10:07:23 PM
AT Thomas Richter and Kolla

Haage & Partner still have the rights to OS3.9. Vasalia still has(had) legitimate copies of 3.9 available not so long ago.  To the best of  my knowledge however, they have not given permission to the Apollo Team to modify and distribute versions of 3.9. In fact in the only public statement they have made regarding this, they said they could not give permission because they could not contact all of the developers involved.

You are definitely right Kolla to question this.  This has been one reason why I have not purchased a vampire board.  There are also some questions regarding OS 4.1 as well but that's another story, for another thread.

We'll have to see the results of the Hyperion versus Cloanto court action as well as the resulting enforcement orders for clarity.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Niding on March 22, 2018, 08:00:58 AM
@Neuf

You dont have to use Coffin OS with your Vampire.

Some of us stick with the original AOS3.1, selfmodified with addons, like everyone has done since the 90s.
Some use other versions, lncluding purchased Vesalia 3.9's.

And some use AROS.

Basically you would run the Vampire like you did/do with your current legacy hardware, just faster.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 22, 2018, 09:16:13 AM
Quote from: Niding;837600
@Neuf
You dont have to use Coffin OS with your Vampire.

The question is not "whether you have to", but "who is distributing software that infringes copyrights".
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 22, 2018, 10:06:49 AM
Quote from: Neuf;837589
Vasalia still has(had) legitimate copies of 3.9 available not so long ago.

How does one recognise a legitimate copy of 3.9? With Hyperion and Cloanto licensing stuff they themselves previously claimed not to have any rights to (and well founded doubts about a lot of the claimed rights), it would be nice to know how to tell a legitimate copy from a greycopy.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: PPC on March 22, 2018, 10:09:20 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;837601
The question is not "whether you have to", but "who is distributing software that infringes copyrights".


Lets put the discussion in another way (it's a valid point nevertheless by Thomas).
I also posted this idea on EAB and i hope this gets something going.

OS3.9 BB2 is now very old (released in 2002).
Maybe a new OS3.x version can be created that has all/most goodies inside that now can be found in coffin.
This together with the new upcoming KS ROM's from Hyperion would be a very nice package.
And maybe some deals could be made for example with the author from Roadshow to include a demo version and maybe some other nice software packages/contributions.

Specially with the Vampire cards selling like hotcakes and after the release of V4 and hopefully V1200 the sales of vampire cards will only get more.
In other words there is nice business opportunity here for all.

Like i said before, i did create my own beyond 3.9 BB2 install from official and legal software (i always buy my Amiga software legit to support the devs) but it was a whole lot of work, took me months to get on the level where it is now.
Most users do not want to go down that road and just want to get up and go fast, Coffin offers this.
Now the question is can there be a legitimate way to offer users the same as with coffin/Apollo OS whatever.
For starters i would be very happy to pay for such a product saves me a ton of work!
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 22, 2018, 11:02:59 AM
Quote from: Niding;837600
@Neuf

You dont have to use Coffin OS with your Vampire.

This is not about "Coffin", this is about the kickstart that comes with the core files that they release.

Quote
Some of us stick with the original AOS3.1, selfmodified with addons, like everyone has done since the 90s.
Some use other versions, lncluding purchased Vesalia 3.9's.

It is not "original AOS3.1" when you boot from a "3.10" kickstart with updated shell and whatnot from OS3.9.

Quote
And some use AROS.

Which is bootstrapped on its own, from AmigaOS.

Quote
Basically you would run the Vampire like you did/do with your current legacy hardware, just faster.

Provided your legacy hardware has a "homebrew" 3.9 kickstart on an EPROM.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 22, 2018, 11:08:03 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;837583
Kolla, what's wrong with you? This is my text. How come you care about copyright lately?

I don't care about copyrights, I care about Apollo Team getting a free card while others get sent cease and desist letters if they put AmigaOS "distros" up for download, let alone commercially sell hardware products with "illegal" software loaded on them. Either Apollo Team have to abide by the same rules as everyone else, or EVERYONE (and their dogs too) get freedom to ship kickstarts and OS distros as they see fit.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 22, 2018, 11:17:26 AM
And I ask again - on so many occasions and in media, podcasts etc, it has been stated over and over the "ApolloOS" (today "Coffin") is not at all done by "the team", but some "anonymous enthusiast". So it turns out that this "anonymous enthusiast" is actually Renaud "TuKo" Schweingruber, whos associations with "the team" is so close that he on several sites talks and acts on behalf of them, has "Apollo Team" on his profile and all. He is also the guy who seems to run http://www.apollo-accelerators.com (according to whois-info, he owns the domain), which is the site from where one orders cards and download cores. How this is "not by the team" is becoming irrelevant. When users come with problems on the apollo-core site, among the first questions they get from "the team" is what version of ApolloOS, and if it isn't, they suggest try with ApolloOS - especially for "new users and people who have not used Amiga maybe since 1.x days" - this while also maintaining a rumour that "oh, but all vampire owners already bought OS3.9 years ago". Some people are more equal than others, I suppose.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 22, 2018, 11:19:45 AM
Quote from: grond;837602
How does one recognise a legitimate copy of 3.9?
By having the nice CD with the boingball logo on it, for example. The boingbag (what a stupid name) installer checks for something on the CD, I would go check there for the technicalities.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 22, 2018, 11:23:32 AM
Quote from: PPC;837603
Most users do not want to go down that road and just want to get up and go fast, Coffin offers this.

Isn't one of the strongholds of AmigaOS that is it supposedly is so much simpler, easier and more elegant than say... Windows, Mac and Linux etc?

Apparently not.

In my view "most users" is nothing but a myth, a sorry excuse that developers and programmers use when they have nothing else tangible to say.

Quote
Now the question is can there be a legitimate way to offer users the same as with coffin/Apollo OS whatever.
For starters i would be very happy to pay for such a product saves me a ton of work!

Maybe one should think of this _before_ shipping and offering downloads??
Oh, but you did, and decided to ignore it all.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 22, 2018, 11:33:59 AM
Quote from: PPC;837603
OS3.9 BB2 is now very old (released in 2002).
Maybe a new OS3.x version can be created that has all/most goodies inside that now can be found in coffin.
3.1.4 is supposed to become that, or at least, the "core of such a system" in the sense that includes the necessary core components that allow extension by third parties to their likings. The problem is that 3.9 consisted of various third party contributions that are out of reach. 3.1.4 will not contain any third party contributions, just the Os core.

So, for example, there are sufficient rights to include newer versions of workbench, icon, setpatch, FFS and a lot of other stuff, but Reaction is a H&P inhouse development H&P holds rights on, and for that reason, it cannot be included. So there is a lot of work going on backporting or extending 3.1 components to work without such contributions to the Os.

Doing it right is of course a lot more painful than just stealing what you want... Yes, you can still buy 3.9, so please no arguments in this direction. It is an accessible product.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 22, 2018, 11:55:22 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;837607
By having the nice CD with the boingball logo on it, for example. The boingbag (what a stupid name) installer checks for something on the CD, I would go check there for the technicalities.

And since it is technically impossible to recreate such CDs from one original copy, this must be taken as proof that the copy is legitimate?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 22, 2018, 11:57:14 AM
Quote from: kolla;837605
I care about Apollo Team getting a free card while others get sent cease and desist letters if they put AmigaOS "distros" up for download

Now that you put it this way, the Apollo Team seems even cooler.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Lord Aga on March 22, 2018, 11:59:50 AM
In all honesty, Kolla seems to be the best promoter of the Apollo/Vampire projects :D

Just like flat-Earthers make you like science :)
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: OlafS3 on March 22, 2018, 12:18:09 PM
Quote from: kolla;837577
Not pure, Just 99.999999999998603 % negative, for some strange reason.

Btw, now that it is clear that Tuko is the person behind ApolloOS - is he part of the Apollo Team or is he not? He has labeled himself "Apollo Team" on EAB for example - how was it about ApolloOS _not_ being officially made, endorsed or supported by the team, but rather by some "rabid enthusiast"? I see the kickstarts that comes with cores are pretty much OS3.9 kickstarts, including bits and pieces like the latest shell update from ThoR and more.

As someone who owns two Vampire cards, I want to know the distribution rights and licenses for the software that I have download along with the core updates - is the content of the kickstart exclusively licensed to the Apollo Team? If so, where is the statement from the copyright owners about this? The websites are totally silent, both Tuko's http://www.apollo-accelerators.com and Gunnar's apollo-core.com - the changelog (http://www.apollo-accelerators.com/files/ChangeLog) says nothing.

If there wasn't so much BS surrounding the entire Apollo Core project, there wouldn't be any reason to be stir the pond, but the way the team operates, it is very hard to not raise a few questions - questions that no-one seems willing to answer properly to settle any doubts.


you just nerve, you are aware of

do us a favor and search for another hobby
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: OlafS3 on March 22, 2018, 12:22:17 PM
Quote from: kolla;837577
Not pure, Just 99.999999999998603 % negative, for some strange reason.

Btw, now that it is clear that Tuko is the person behind ApolloOS - is he part of the Apollo Team or is he not? He has labeled himself "Apollo Team" on EAB for example - how was it about ApolloOS _not_ being officially made, endorsed or supported by the team, but rather by some "rabid enthusiast"? I see the kickstarts that comes with cores are pretty much OS3.9 kickstarts, including bits and pieces like the latest shell update from ThoR and more.

As someone who owns two Vampire cards, I want to know the distribution rights and licenses for the software that I have download along with the core updates - is the content of the kickstart exclusively licensed to the Apollo Team? If so, where is the statement from the copyright owners about this? The websites are totally silent, both Tuko's http://www.apollo-accelerators.com and Gunnar's apollo-core.com - the changelog (http://www.apollo-accelerators.com/files/ChangeLog) says nothing.

If there wasn't so much BS surrounding the entire Apollo Core project, there wouldn't be any reason to be stir the pond, but the way the team operates, it is very hard to not raise a few questions - questions that no-one seems willing to answer properly to settle any doubts.


3.9 kickstarts? 3.9 kickstarts do not exist or you are changing history now
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: OlafS3 on March 22, 2018, 12:26:13 PM
Quote from: kolla;837606
And I ask again - on so many occasions and in media, podcasts etc, it has been stated over and over the "ApolloOS" (today "Coffin") is not at all done by "the team", but some "anonymous enthusiast". So it turns out that this "anonymous enthusiast" is actually Renaud "TuKo" Schweingruber, whos associations with "the team" is so close that he on several sites talks and acts on behalf of them, has "Apollo Team" on his profile and all. He is also the guy who seems to run http://www.apollo-accelerators.com (according to whois-info, he owns the domain), which is the site from where one orders cards and download cores. How this is "not by the team" is becoming irrelevant. When users come with problems on the apollo-core site, among the first questions they get from "the team" is what version of ApolloOS, and if it isn't, they suggest try with ApolloOS - especially for "new users and people who have not used Amiga maybe since 1.x days" - this while also maintaining a rumour that "oh, but all vampire owners already bought OS3.9 years ago". Some people are more equal than others, I suppose.


Where do you know who is behind "ApolloOS"? And yes distribution certainly is illegal, not just because of based on 3.9. Because of that it is unofficial.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 22, 2018, 12:48:26 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;837615
3.9 kickstarts? 3.9 kickstarts do not exist or you are changing history now


You know perfectly well what I mean - Apollo Core  comes with a 3.10 kickstart even. Do they exist?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 22, 2018, 12:52:19 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;837616
Where do you know who is behind "ApolloOS"?


From apollo-core.com - it was stated by people who knows and who clearly don't know when to be quiet, that it was toku who is the person who decides to replace FFS with pfs3aio for latest R49 or whatever the latest is.

Quote

And yes distribution certainly is illegal, not just because of based on 3.9. Because of that it is unofficial.


Yeah, very "unofficial", when it is promoted, supported, and maintained by the very same person who owns the domain that officially are selling the product it is made for. This "unofficial" label is utter nonsense.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 22, 2018, 12:53:09 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;837614
you just nerve, you are aware of

do us a favor and search for another hobby


Is this is personal threat? I am not leaving, I am having way too much fun now.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 22, 2018, 12:55:21 PM
Quote from: grond;837611
Now that you put it this way, the Apollo Team seems even cooler.


Yeah, they are super cool... breaking the law, breaking the law!
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Lord Aga on March 22, 2018, 12:55:41 PM
Quote from: kolla;837619
You know perfectly well what I mean - Apollo Core  comes from a round planet. Do they exist?


Fixed :)
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 22, 2018, 12:56:36 PM
Quote from: PPC;837603

Now the question is can there be a legitimate way to offer users the same as with coffin/Apollo OS whatever.
For starters i would be very happy to pay for such a product saves me a ton of work!


Simple - Hyperion hires Tuko to work with ThoR and Olsen. :laughing:
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 22, 2018, 01:02:58 PM
Quote from: grond;837610
And since it is technically impossible to recreate such CDs from one original copy, this must be taken as proof that the copy is legitimate?

Which type of answer do you actually expect? If you buy computer hardware in a shop, and you want it repaired under warranty, you need a legal document showing that you bought the hardware. It is commonly accepted that a receipt will do so. So, the "legallly correct way" to ensure that you own a 3.9 copy is: Have your receipt ready. Is this good enough for you?

Now, this, of course, makes it rather hard to verify ownership by technical means, right?
So, what else should I do? I'm not spending my day verifying Os 3.9 receipts. I can only, by all the means I have, tell people: Please, have your 3.9 ready, get the original files from the CD, then appy the patch. That is as much verification I can do, without too much hassle.

Apparently, asking people to be honest seems to be asking too much these days? Oh, right, I'm talking to a lawer, that's why....

Once again: The shell patch is only for owners of 3.9. This is not a free distribution for everyone. If you want 3.9, go buy it in a shop. Got it?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: PPC on March 22, 2018, 01:03:31 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;837609
3.1.4 is supposed to become that, or at least, the "core of such a system" in the sense that includes the necessary core components that allow extension by third parties to their likings. The problem is that 3.9 consisted of various third party contributions that are out of reach. 3.1.4 will not contain any third party contributions, just the Os core.

So, for example, there are sufficient rights to include newer versions of workbench, icon, setpatch, FFS and a lot of other stuff, but Reaction is a H&P inhouse development H&P holds rights on, and for that reason, it cannot be included. So there is a lot of work going on backporting or extending 3.1 components to work without such contributions to the Os.

Doing it right is of course a lot more painful than just stealing what you want... Yes, you can still buy 3.9, so please no arguments in this direction. It is an accessible product.


Thomas,

What i mean is can these rights be transferred, would H&P let those go, it's not part of their core business anymore, and i cannot imagine it generates a substantial part of their income.
In short, if talked to H&P would they transfer those copyrights and the sources for a symbolic amount of money.
So we can get out of this limbo and would save guys like you a whole lot of work.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 22, 2018, 01:16:44 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;837626
So, the "legallly correct way" to ensure that you own a 3.9 copy is: Have your receipt ready.

To whom would I show the receipt?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: OlafS3 on March 22, 2018, 01:24:36 PM
Quote from: PPC;837627
Thomas,

What i mean is can these rights be transferred, would H&P let those go, it's not part of their core business anymore, and i cannot imagine it generates a substantial part of their income.
In short, if talked to H&P would they transfer those copyrights and the sources for a symbolic amount of money.
So we can get out of this limbo and would save guys like you a whole lot of work.


I was in contact with Mr. Haage some time ago, to me he looked to say it polite "not very interested in amiga anymore". Even worse as far as I know they left the market not with good feelings. Also 3.9 is partly licensed so he would have to sorted out where he still has copyrights and where components are licensed. We talk about something 20 years ago so I am not sure if they still have all the documents anymore and even if why should they invest lots of time in it just to please a couple of users and not getting any money for it.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 22, 2018, 03:28:55 PM
Quote from: kolla;837624
Simple - Hyperion hires Tuko to work with ThoR and Olsen.

Unfortunately this is not possible since Hyperion cannot do any business due to their status as dissolved entity.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on March 22, 2018, 03:42:30 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;837630
I was in contact with Mr. Haage some time ago, to me he looked to say it polite "not very interested in amiga anymore". Even worse as far as I know they left the market not with good feelings. Also 3.9 is partly licensed so he would have to sorted out where he still has copyrights and where components are licensed. We talk about something 20 years ago so I am not sure if they still have all the documents anymore and even if why should they invest lots of time in it just to please a couple of users and not getting any money for it.

Meh.  Tell him I'll give him a thousand bucks for it.  How much could it really be worth, anyway?  That's probably more than they've made in the past decade off it.  I wonder if Vesalia is still tossing them a few bucks for each (presumably legal) CD they sell?

Reminds me off something off the Usenet days, when someone bought something just because they could.  I remember it being something pretty funny, but I can't remember what or who.  Which I guess renders that story a little bit less funny. :lol: :(
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 22, 2018, 03:45:05 PM
Quote from: PPC;837627
In short, if talked to H&P would they transfer those copyrights and the sources for a symbolic amount of money.
So we can get out of this limbo and would save guys like you a whole lot of work.
Look, I tried to reach out for H&P, and didn't get a response. But sure, you are welcome to try your luck as well.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 22, 2018, 03:45:41 PM
Quote from: grond;837628
To whom would I show the receipt?
You still don't get it, right? I mean the part about "being honest"?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 22, 2018, 03:46:36 PM
Quote from: grond;837643
Unfortunately this is not possible since Hyperion cannot do any business due to their status as dissolved entity.

Again spreading false rumours, right? So, where did you get this from?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: OlafS3 on March 22, 2018, 03:50:17 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;837647
Again spreading false rumours, right? So, where did you get this from?

that was the big topic recent days

f.e.
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=42473&forum=16&viewmode=flat&order=0
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 22, 2018, 04:12:53 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;837646
I mean the part about "being honest"?

As in "honestly nobody cares"?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: eliyahu on March 22, 2018, 04:16:08 PM
@thread

i'm getting reports on posts in this thread from multiple people, so let me remind everyone about some of the house rules around here:

if you believe a user is promoting something illegal, contact a moderator. otherwise, keep your cake-hole shut. and while i'm on this subject, while i don't mind my real name being associated with my user ID here, some do. so unless you have permission, don't reveal personal details about another user.

anyone violating these (or any of our other rules) will enjoy a posting holiday from the site. please consider this your only warning.

-- eliyahu
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 22, 2018, 04:35:03 PM
Quote from: grond;837643
Unfortunately this is not possible since Hyperion cannot do any business due to their status as dissolved entity.
Not being allowed to sell products is not the same as not being allowed to hire and do R&D.Btw - how is Apollo Team doing in this regard? Registered entity that is selling properly tested and approved products for the end user (most users) market? Or are the Vampire cards sold as "developer boards" to "developers"?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 22, 2018, 04:49:08 PM
Quote from: kolla;837653
Not being allowed to sell products is not the same as not being allowed to hire and do R&D
 Since when has "doing business" become to exclusively mean "sell products"?  
Quote
Btw - how is Apollo Team doing in this regard? Registered entity that is selling properly tested and approved products for the end user (most users) market? Or are the Vampire cards sold as "developer boards" to "developers"?

As you know the Apollo Team isn't selling Vampire boards, it is developing a core that is used on Vampire boards.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: PPC on March 22, 2018, 05:06:45 PM
Quote from: kolla;837653
How is Apollo Team doing in this regard? Registered entity that is selling properly tested and approved products for the end user (most users) market? Or are the Vampire cards sold as "developer boards" to "developers"?


The boards where CE certified quite some time ago already.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 22, 2018, 08:12:54 PM
Quote from: grond;837654
Since when has "doing business" become to exclusively mean "sell products"?


Are you saying Hyperion are making money by other means than selling products?

Quote
As you know the Apollo Team isn't selling Vampire boards, it is developing a core that is used on Vampire boards.


No, I really don't know where "Apollo Team" stops and "Vampire Team" begins - it's all a big blurry mess. http://www.apollo-accelerators.com - lists at the bottom "Team", without specifying whether it is "Apollo Team" or something else, but it certainly includes "Apollo Team" members. I would even go as far as to say it includes the _entire_ Apollo Team.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 22, 2018, 08:19:26 PM
Quote from: PPC;837656
The boards where CE certified quite some time ago already.

Anyone can slap a CE marking on their product - it is a claim by manufacturer, not an approval by any official.
It is not by any means a certification.

By marking the Vampire with CE, the manufacturer takes all responsibilities in case any of the required standards are not met though, so the "Vampire Team" better know what they are doing... if someone actually tests the cards for compliance, and find that they do not meet the requirements, manufacturer and resellers are the ones with all responsibility, or in other words, deep poop.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: PPC on March 22, 2018, 08:40:45 PM
Quote from: kolla;837661
Anyone can slap a CE marking on their product - it is a claim by manufacturer, not an approval by any official.
It is not by any means a certification.

By marking the Vampire with CE, the manufacturer takes all responsibilities in case any of the required standards are not met though, so the "Vampire Team" better know what they are doing... if someone actually tests the cards for compliance, and find that they do not meet the requirements, manufacturer and resellers are the ones with all responsibility, or in other words, deep poop.


It's not a slapped on CE marking, it's all done official well over a year ago.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 22, 2018, 09:09:54 PM
Quote from: PPC;837662
It's not a slapped on CE marking, it's all done official well over a year ago.

Yes, I remember that, it doesn't change the fact that there is no such thing as "CE certification" though. CE is a _claim_ by manufacturer and resellers that the product satisfies a whole range of requirements.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Neuf on March 22, 2018, 11:49:36 PM
Olaf Schoenweiss in one of the next posts has it correct. After I learned about Apollo OS I made inquiries last year and basically got the same result They simply won't be bothered looking for people they've lost contact with and as a result they won't transfer any rights. By the way it is a situation where all rights are transferred or none are
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guibrush on March 23, 2018, 06:25:00 AM
Quote from: kolla;837665
Yes, I remember that, it doesn't change the fact that there is no such thing as "CE certification" though. CE is a _claim_ by manufacturer and resellers that the product satisfies a whole range of requirements.
Okay, so even you perfectly know that the team has done the certification measures officially, you write a sentence suggesting to the readers of this thread that this is not the case and that there is cheating? Your level of intellectual mischief fascinates me from day to day.
As a reminder : http://www.majsta.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=132
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 23, 2018, 06:41:23 AM
Quote from: Neuf;837672
After I learned about Apollo OS I made inquiries last year and basically got the same result They simply won't be bothered looking for people they've lost contact with and as a result they won't transfer any rights.


So they don't care and neither allow nor prohibit copying of 3.9, at least not if no money is charged for the copy. That's what I would consider abandonware.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 23, 2018, 07:01:53 AM
Quote from: grond;837654
As you know the Apollo Team isn't selling Vampire boards, it is developing a core that is used on Vampire boards.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Gunnar is standing on a street corner selling Vampire boards, any more than Bill Gates sold Microsoft Products.

Interview with Gunnar from the Vampire Team.

http://theretrohour.com/sinclair-spectrum-in-2016-and-amiga-vampire-updates-the-retro-hour-ep34/

While he points out that he only does the core, at 16:30 he says "We started to sell vampires last Christmas" and he uses "Our" and "We as a team" when referring to the standalone boards.

So if there is a legal separation between Apollo and Vampire then it's very unclear and confuses Gunnar himself. Which makes me think that you are wrong.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guibrush on March 23, 2018, 07:50:34 AM
Trolling is definitely an art. I think we found our guests for the next dinners on Wednesday night.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 23, 2018, 09:23:22 AM
Quote from: grond;837678
So they don't care and neither allow nor prohibit copying of 3.9, at least not if no money is charged for the copy. That's what I would consider abandonware.
First of all, it is not up to you to decide what has been abandoned or not. Second, a software that is for sale in a shop is certainly nothing I would call "abandoned". Just because you like it to be so does not make this true.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: OlafS3 on March 23, 2018, 09:42:55 AM
Quote from: grond;837678
So they don't care and neither allow nor prohibit copying of 3.9, at least not if no money is charged for the copy. That's what I would consider abandonware.

ApolloOS is highly illegal from a legal point of view

To find copyright owners and get approval, examine documentations regarding distribution and so on is a lot of work. That is expecially true for former commercial software. I would estimate at least 40% of time is needed for that. To say I do not give a %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@! on laws and simply ignore it saves a lot of time. Cinema4D f.e. what was included is still sold and not abandonware (of course not for amiga and reprogrammed not based on the old sources). So team members should not promote ApolloOS in public to not make them attackable in a legal sense. Vampire is if you look how many devices are sold something commercial so rules and laws have to be accepted. How much profit you do with it is not important.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Gulliver on March 23, 2018, 11:02:12 AM
Quote from: OlafS3;837687
ApolloOS is highly illegal from a legal point of view

To find copyright owners and get approval, examine documentations regarding distribution and so on is a lot of work. That is expecially true for former commercial software. I would estimate at least 40% of time is needed for that. To say I do not give a %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@! on laws and simply ignore it saves a lot of time. Cinema4D f.e. what was included is still sold and not abandonware (of course not for amiga and reprogrammed not based on the old sources). So team members should not promote ApolloOS in public to not make them attackable in a legal sense. Vampire is if you look how many devices are sold something commercial so rules and laws have to be accepted. How much profit you do with it is not important.


That last two sentences are probably the most important parts to have in mind.
If you sell something and take advantage of other people's work the law will not be benign or light regarding your doings. If you are doing it without any commercial intent, you will probably get a cease or desist first and can get away stopping those activities without any hard consequences.

On the other hand, some Team members saying that they couldnt contact any of the parties that have rights regarding 3.9 is a blatant lie: Thomas Richter, as an example, is easily available, and recently got back the rights of his contributions to AmigaOS 3.9 (BenchTrash, IOTools, VinCed, etc), so he is one that can be asked for those particular rights. Has anyone of the Team asked him? If he wanted he can probably sue them with a degree of success. So I wouldnt be trying to seek his anger, as it would be a very dumb move. Furthermore, remember AmigaOS 3.9 still has many 3.1 components so both Hyperion and Cloanto could probably sue them too if they wanted.

AmigaOS 3.9 is a mess regarding rights, because there are many entities involved that have different rights, many can be contacted, and many not. Distributing it for commercial purposes, is putting yourself in bad spot because any of those entities can potentially sue you, and they are so many.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Djole on March 23, 2018, 11:44:29 AM
Quote from: Gulliver;837690
That last two sentences are probably the most important parts to have in mind.
If you sell something and take advantage of other people's work the law will not be benign or light regarding your doings. If you are doing it without any commercial intent, you will probably get a cease or desist first and can get away stopping those activities without any hard consequences.

On the other hand, some Team members saying that they couldnt contact any of the parties that have rights regarding 3.9 is a blatant lie: Thomas Richter, as an example, is easily available, and recently got back the rights of his contributions to AmigaOS 3.9 (BenchTrash, IOTools, VinCed, etc), so he is one that can be asked for those particular rights. Has anyone of the Team asked him? If he wanted he can probably sue them with a degree of success. So I wouldnt be trying to seek his anger, as it would be a very dumb move. Furthermore, remember AmigaOS 3.9 still has many 3.1 components so both Hyperion and Cloanto could probably sue them too if they wanted.

AmigaOS 3.9 is a mess regarding rights, because there are many entities involved that have different rights, many can be contacted, and many not. Distributing it for commercial purposes, is putting yourself in bad spot because any of those entities can potentially sue you, and they are so many.


So if i buy a HP laptop and install illegal Windows on it, Microsoft can sue HP ? Nothing comes preinstalled on a Vampire board, so your story just doesnt hold water. Its up to the user to install the OS or distribution if you like of his choice....
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Romanujan on March 23, 2018, 11:48:38 AM
If HP had advertised illegal/cracked Windows and provided you a link to download it - I believe Microsoft would have sued them.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 23, 2018, 12:14:11 PM
Quote from: guibrush;837676
Okay, so even you perfectly know that the team has done the certification measures officially, you write a sentence suggesting to the readers of this thread that this is not the case and that there is cheating?


No - I am pointing out that CE marking is something the manufacturer itself and the resellers are responsible for doing correctly, it is not a certification granted by an independent third party on behalf of authorities. It is all nice and cool that the V500 went through EMC testing, but CE is much more than that - it is also RoHS and other things. And the V500 above is just that one board/model, how about the V600 boards produced by Kipper2k? What about modified boards? What about the newer V4 boards? Anyways, I am saying that with CE marking, there comes certain responsibilities - is "the team", aware and able to handle these responsibilities? Or are all these responsibilities all on Majsta?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 23, 2018, 12:16:54 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;837687
ApolloOS is highly illegal from a legal point of view

To find copyright owners and get approval, examine documentations regarding distribution and so on is a lot of work. That is expecially true for former commercial software. I would estimate at least 40% of time is needed for that. To say I do not give a %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@! on laws and simply ignore it saves a lot of time. Cinema4D f.e. what was included is still sold and not abandonware (of course not for amiga and reprogrammed not based on the old sources). So team members should not promote ApolloOS in public to not make them attackable in a legal sense. Vampire is if you look how many devices are sold something commercial so rules and laws have to be accepted. How much profit you do with it is not important.


Wow - screenshot worthy.

Now look over at http://www.apollo-core.com - see if you find any traces of promotion of ApolloOS there.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 23, 2018, 12:22:27 PM
Quote from: Djole;837692
Nothing comes preinstalled on a Vampire board,

Not true - it comes with a kickstart that is pretty much a homebrew OS 3.9 kickstart - including, among other things, shell 45.39, in addition to Vampire specific ROM modules.

Whatever happened to the "Screw AmigaOS, we will just use AROS" mantra that was some time ago? I heard some AROS developers were not so happy about Apollo people doing changes to the sources without committing them upstream. How did that work out? What is it about Apollo Team and communication skills?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 23, 2018, 12:33:04 PM
Quote from: Romanujan;837693
If HP had advertised illegal/cracked Windows and provided you a link to download it - I believe Microsoft would have sued them.

In this case, Apollo Team seems reluctant to support people who use "plain" AmigaOS instead of ApolloOS, and have an official support forum for "Coffin" software - http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=9

One can speculate that they gamble on facing legal consequences, would fit perfectly if they can bail out the entire "hobby project" and blame it on "copyright nazis".
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 23, 2018, 12:36:57 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;837685
First of all, it is not up to you to decide what has been abandoned or not.

Neither is it up to you to decide. It is up to the rightsholder. That is what I was asking about above: whom should I show the receipt to?

It is entirely Haage's private business and none of anybody's matter whether other people's rights are infringed or not. Be concerned about your own rights but not about other people's.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: TrashyMG on March 23, 2018, 01:34:25 PM
Quote from: kolla;837699
In this case, Apollo Team seems reluctant to support people who use "plain" AmigaOS instead of ApolloOS, and have an official support forum for "Coffin" software - http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=9

One can speculated that they gamble on facing legal consequences, would fit perfectly if they can bail out the entire "hobby project" and blame it on "copyright nazis".


Stop inventing controversy, Gunnar didn't even know what ApolloOS was when it first came to be. Quite a bit of people are running classicWB or regular WB3.1 setups they've brought up themselves. Apollo/Coffin came to be because there were a few members on IRC that shared their already build CF images to help out people that didn't want to or had the ability to put together their own OS image. It didn't come directly from the Apollo Team.

Personally I'd like to see a legal route to a vampire friendly OS personally, something stripped down to only the essentials with Apollo core specific drivers installed already. But as we all know this is a legal quagmire.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 23, 2018, 01:35:48 PM
Quote from: grond;837701
Be concerned about your own rights but not about other people's.


Another one for the screenshot collection.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 23, 2018, 01:49:07 PM
Quote from: TrashyMG;837702
But as we all know this is a legal quagmire.

No, it isn't, there are lots of 68k operating systems around to build from. AROS is one. All that would be needed is an AROS kickstart with enough of a bootloader for the user to load a "real" kickstart file. Not even seriously advanced.

Heck - they even got a license to use kickstart 3.1 - why not just use that? What's with all the OS3.9 kickstart components, why are they there? Is it because another reboot would be required and certain people are overly concerned about boot times?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 23, 2018, 01:51:18 PM
Quote from: grond;837701
Neither is it up to you to decide. It is up to the rightsholder.

No it isn't, the righsholder can even be dead, and the work is still under copyright protection for another 70 years.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 23, 2018, 02:07:54 PM
Quote from: kolla;837705
No it isn't, the righsholder can even be dead, and the work is still under copyright protection for another 70 years.

Then the heirs of the rightholders are the new rightholders. It doesn't change anything: prosecution of copyright infringements is entirely up to the rightholder and not to anybody else. If nothing happens, it seems it doesn't matter to whom it might concern. In any case it's none of your business.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guest11527 on March 23, 2018, 02:33:59 PM
Quote from: grond;837706
If nothing happens, it seems it doesn't matter to whom it might concern. In any case it's none of your business.

But it is my business, as I provide the patch. And I can only grand you rights I received, not more, and I will follow the agreement from back then.

So, once again, if this wasn't clear enough: This patch is for owners of 3.9 *only*.

This is the intention of the rights holders, and this is through the agreement from back then also my intention. If you want 3.9, go, buy it.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 23, 2018, 02:39:17 PM
Quote from: grond;837706
Then the heirs of the rightholders are the new rightholders.


That is not automatic, people also die without having heirs, and copyright still last 70 years.

Stupid law? Sure, but that's what it is.

Quote

It doesn't change anything: prosecution of copyright infringements is entirely up to the rightholder and not to anybody else. If nothing happens, it seems it doesn't matter to whom it might concern. In any case it's none of your business.


I make it my business, since you ("the team") have been so super nice with me and others. I am sure you want me to shut up, but as long as the Apollo Team keep up with arrogance and BS, I will not shut up about it.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: TrashyMG on March 23, 2018, 02:47:34 PM
Quote from: kolla;837709
That is not automatic, people also die without having heirs, and copyright still last 70 years.

Stupid law? Sure, but that's what it is.



I make it my business, since you ("the team") have been so super nice with me and others. I am sure you want me to shut up, but as long as the Apollo Team keep up with arrogance and BS, I will not shut up about it.


Must be hard being the victim of an imaginary situation.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: nicholas on March 23, 2018, 02:51:42 PM
Shall i resurrect commodoreamiga.ir and host CoffinOS there?

Good look trying to shut it down with western laws. ;)
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: grond on March 23, 2018, 03:12:01 PM
Quote from: kolla;837709
That is not automatic, people also die without having heirs, and copyright still last 70 years.

Nonsense. If there are no heirs, the state inherits.  
Quote
I make it my business, since you ("the Team") have been so super nice with me and others. I am sure you want me to shut up, but as long as the Apollo Team keep up with arrogance and BS, I will not shut up about it.

That's probably why it says "Desperately needs a life" next to your avatar.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Karlos on March 23, 2018, 03:18:05 PM
Right, just to bring this back to a useful point: Pretty please, with a cherry on top, produce an A1200 version.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: nicholas on March 23, 2018, 03:35:21 PM
Quote from: Karlos;837714
Right, just to bring this back to a useful point: Pretty please, with a cherry on top, produce an A1200 version.


And an A3000 version with go faster stripes and furry dice please.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guibrush on March 23, 2018, 03:36:27 PM
Quote from: kolla;837709
I am sure you want me to shut up, but as long as the Apollo Team keep up with arrogance and BS, Iwill not shut up about it.


No, please don’t stop, this is so funny that it enlighten my lunch pause! If you stop it I will be bored. Are you free Wednesday night for a lunch ?

You have so many vital questions to ask about the vampire, so many questions that make sense. Moreover, it makes sense, when we go to buy a computer, we ask all these questions.

I imagine the dialogue between you and the salesman when you buy a pc at the store: "the CE compliment test is done right? The license is paid? The rights holders have been contacted? How much earn the people who made the product? They are declared? They paid their taxes? Is the packaging gluten free?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Lord Aga on March 23, 2018, 04:36:11 PM
Wow, this keeps getting better and better :D

"The Internetz hurt my feelings so it sparked a vendetta of stalking, trolling, and shilling."

Isn't that against some forum rules? Since we like rules so much...
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Kremlar on March 23, 2018, 05:11:44 PM
Quote from: guibrush;837716
No, please don’t stop, this is so funny that it enlighten my lunch pause! If you stop it I will be bored. Are you free Wednesday night for a lunch ?

You have so many vital questions to ask about the vampire, so many questions that make sense. Moreover, it makes sense, when we go to buy a computer, we ask all these questions.

I imagine the dialogue between you and the salesman when you buy a pc at the store: "the CE compliment test is done right? The license is paid? The rights holders have been contacted? How much earn the people who made the product? They are declared? They paid their taxes? Is the packaging gluten free?


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 23, 2018, 05:34:38 PM
Quote from: TrashyMG;837710
Must be hard being the victim of an imaginary situation.


Nope, not hard at all. Entertaining rather.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 23, 2018, 06:12:47 PM
Quote from: guibrush;837716
I imagine the dialogue between you and the salesman when you buy a pc at the store: "the CE compliment test is done right? The license is paid? The rights holders have been contacted? How much earn the people who made the product? They are declared? They paid their taxes? Is the packaging gluten free?

Sounds like you have not bought electronic items in a very long time, or maybe you have dubious sources? Have you not noticed the pile of papers that come with just about anything you buy? Look at them, there is typically at least one sheet solely about safety and regulation conformity, and links to the support sites of the manufacturer where you can read in detail about exactly what conformity regulations the product is supposed to adhere to.

But my original question here, which somehow got lost... what entity has the responsibility for the CE compliance? Is it Majsta personally? Is it "the team"? What about V600 boards made by Kipper? With other hardware, there is rarely any doubt about who is the seller and who is the manufacturer, but in this case, with various "team" constellations and "volunteers" here and there doing the manufacturing, there is plenty to be doubtful about.

As for what I have bought myself - yes, I have returned products because they, after a little testing, turned out to not adhere to the regulations the product was marked with. Most times, the reseller were only happy to remove and recall the products, but in a handful cases I reported to Forbrukerombudet (The Consumer Ombudsman), who then did the follow-up and every now and then kept me informed.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 23, 2018, 06:16:53 PM
Quote from: grond;837713
If there are no heirs, the state inherits.


Exactly, and the copyright stays intact.

You are not the state.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 23, 2018, 06:25:57 PM
Quote from: Karlos;837714
Pretty please, with a cherry on top, produce an A1200 version.

Yes - I agree, bring it on! More cards! More users! More violations! More poop to hit fans! :)
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 23, 2018, 06:36:53 PM
Quote from: nicholas;837711
Shall i resurrect commodoreamiga.ir and host CoffinOS there?

Good look trying to shut it down with western laws. ;)


That's hardly relevant. The point here is that "CoffinOS" is an unlicensed assembly of operating system and software, officially endorsed and officially supported (and it turns out, even assembled) by the same people who sell the product it was made for. What media that is used for distribution is not relevant.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guibrush on March 23, 2018, 06:47:10 PM
Jesus, we have a good one here, maybe even a world class champion....
https://media.giphy.com/media/10dFztf8l3aDUk/giphy.gif
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Djole on March 23, 2018, 06:47:58 PM
Quote from: kolla;837726
Sounds like you have not bought electronic items in a very long time, or maybe you have dubious sources? Have you not noticed the pile of papers that come with just about anything you buy? Look at them, there is typically at least one sheet solely about safety and regulation conformity, and links to the support sites of the manufacturer where you can read in detail about exactly what conformity regulations the product is supposed to adhere to.

But my original question here, which somehow got lost... what entity has the responsibility for the CE compliance? Is it Majsta personally? Is it "the team"? What about V600 boards made by Kipper? With other hardware, there is rarely any doubt about who is the seller and who is the manufacturer, but in this case, with various "team" constellations and "volunteers" here and there doing the manufacturing, there is plenty to be doubtful about.

As for what I have bought myself - yes, I have returned products because they, after a little testing, turned out to not adhere to the regulations the product was marked with. Most times, the reseller were only happy to remove and recall the products, but in a handful cases I reported to Forbrukerombudet (The Consumer Ombudsman), who then did the follow-up and every now and then kept me informed.


Most of the Amiga hw is at hobby or just above level... We should be happy there is anything available at all. You cant expect Majsta to compete with any big manufacturer and have the resources for all the regulations, he has done more that any other single person could do to deliver a quality product. All the "rules" and regulations are making the mankind retards we are today.

"Only" a handful of reports, you should step up your game :)
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: TrashyMG on March 23, 2018, 07:00:49 PM
Quote from: kolla;837729
That's hardly relevant. The point here is that "CoffinOS" is an unlicensed assembly of operating system and software, officially endorsed and officially supported (and it turns out, even assembled) by the same people who sell the product it was made for. What media that is used for distribution is not relevant.


Except it's not, it's assembled and distributed by someone that is just a unofficial volunteer tester.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 23, 2018, 07:04:38 PM
Quote from: Djole;837732
You cant expect Majsta to compete with any big manufacturer and have the resources for all the regulations, he has done more that any other single person could do to deliver a quality product.


I was not the one bringing in a comparison with "big manufacturers". Interesting that you say Majsta personally, and not any "team". Does this mean that he is the sole responsible entity when it comes to conformation for all Vampire cards?

Quote
All the "rules" and regulations are making the mankind retards we are today.


Mankind is actually doing better than ever, with more educated people than ever before. Time to move out of your bubble.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 23, 2018, 07:07:32 PM
Quote from: TrashyMG;837734
Except it's not, it's assembled and distributed by someone that is just a unofficial volunteer tester.

Same "someone" who owns the domain apollo-accelerators.com from where cards are sold and cores are distributed. Is he also volunteering for eventual legal costs in the future? "Taking one for the team"? Like Kipper (and others) pretty much did?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: nicholas on March 23, 2018, 08:29:54 PM
Quote from: kolla;837729
That's hardly relevant. The point here is that "CoffinOS" is an unlicensed assembly of operating system and software, officially endorsed and officially supported (and it turns out, even assembled) by the same people who sell the product it was made for. What media that is used for distribution is not relevant.


It very relevant as distribution of these things is completely within the law of Iran.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 23, 2018, 11:01:21 PM
Quote from: nicholas;837740
It very relevant as distribution of these things is completely within the law of Iran.


Nice theory, go right ahead. I am not telling you not to, I am all for it :)
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: nicholas on March 23, 2018, 11:36:55 PM
Quote from: kolla;837749
Nice theory, go right ahead. I am not telling you not to, I am all for it :)


Oh the fun that could be had. ;)
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 24, 2018, 11:45:04 AM
Quote from: TrashyMG;837702
Stop inventing controversy, Gunnar didn't even know what ApolloOS was when it first came to be.


Is ignorance a valid excuse?
In any event, he doesn't appear to care.

Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 3242
18 Aug 2017 09:56

Was Robin Hood a thief or a hero?
 
I think it does depend on the situation.
 
In 1987 when a game coder tried to make a living from programming AMIGA games, he often got like $2 per sold copy. For this guy it made a big difference whether 20,000 copies are sold or only 10,000 copies because of pirating.
 
But how is the situation with OS 3.9 files today?
Is 3.9 sold somewhere? And how much do the coders get from this?
How much is re-invested to create new programs e.g. OS 3.91?
 
Is AMIGA OS for 68K continuously and regularly developed, updated, and improved? Or are we on 68k in a state like C64?
And is sharing the files to only way to continue?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Motormouth on March 24, 2018, 02:00:45 PM
I wonder what Doomy would think about an A2000 with a vampire in it?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Gulliver on March 24, 2018, 02:13:48 PM
Quote from: Motormouth;837767
I wonder what Doomy would think about an A2000 with a vampire in it?

He would say that it is nuclear powered :D
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 24, 2018, 02:49:31 PM
Quote from: Motormouth;837767
I wonder what Doomy would think about an A2000 with a vampire in it?


A mil spec vampire would be awesome.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: ribdevil1 on March 24, 2018, 04:54:37 PM
@ psxphill

It's windows 98 continuously and regularly developed, updated, and improved?

OS3.x it's the same.

There's a modern AmigaOS, but people don't like.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Lord Aga on March 24, 2018, 06:33:53 PM
Quote from: psxphill;837760

How much is re-invested to create new programs e.g. OS 3.91?


I think they are already at 3.92.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: QuikSanz on March 24, 2018, 08:03:34 PM
@Thread,

You guys fret too much. I own a few flavors of 3.1 KS and Copies of OS3.1, 3.5 & 3.9.
I use what I want!
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: psxphill on March 24, 2018, 10:04:44 PM
Quote from: Lord Aga;837777
I think they are already at 3.92.

Quote from: ribdevil1;837774
@ psxphill

It's windows 98 continuously and regularly developed, updated, and improved?

OS3.x it's the same.

There's a modern AmigaOS, but people don't like.

Most of my post was a copy of Gunnars post on the apollo forums, to prove that he didn't care that he was violating other peoples copyright. The hypocrisy is that he keeps his copyright closely guarded by refusing to open source it. One rule for him, another for others.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on March 24, 2018, 11:25:13 PM
Quote from: ribdevil1;837774

It's windows 98 continuously and regularly developed, updated, and improved?

OS3.x it's the same.


https://www.lifewire.com/download-windows-98-2625080
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: AmigaEd on March 26, 2018, 03:40:07 AM
Quote from: Motormouth;837767
I wonder what Doomy would think about an A2000 with a vampire in it?


Finally! A post which improves the quality of this thread!
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: David Wright on March 26, 2018, 01:25:59 PM
Silver 2.9 or Gold 2.9?
Anyone here know why my amiga 500 with 1mb chipram is showing 2 mb chipram?
Says so on title bar and all my benchmark software. I have gold 2.8 with Apollo OS coffin
Half my whdload games crash the computer on launch also.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: eliyahu on March 26, 2018, 11:35:01 PM
@thread

for those of you who'd like to continue your discussion of bosnia and nationalism generally, i've moved those posts here (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=73424). let's try to keep the thread on-topic going forward. thanks.

-- eliyahu
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Djole on March 27, 2018, 08:55:47 AM
Good to be back on topic....

Here are some early MapROM tests:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mp4G3ngl6k&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Niding on April 02, 2018, 09:14:05 PM
Very indepth presentation of the Vampire project by Manuel Jesus recorded by The Guru Meditation;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-egp3pWr1w
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: bbond007 on April 02, 2018, 10:59:57 PM
Quote from: Niding;838171
Very indepth presentation of the Vampire project by Manuel Jesus recorded by The Guru Meditation;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-egp3pWr1w


Excellent presentation - looking forward to the second part...

sounds like he is going to show Vampire working with DCTV :)
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Niding on April 08, 2018, 04:40:03 PM
Gold 2.9 released:

RELEASE GOLD 2.9

New features

1) Better support for fast Power-OFF/ON of the AMIGA
2) Allow Software to turn off build-in MAP-ROM to access on board ROM-CHIP.
3) MAPROM mapping support for ATARI Roms
4) Memory Management support for ATARI Memory map
5) FPU speed up (now 51 MFlops at x11 according to Sysinfo)
6) FPU fully working under ATARI OS
7) Press FIRE-buttons on Power-ON will boot EMUTOS (ATARI OS)

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=6¬e=14069

GOLD 2.9 - GFX Card Speed

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=2¬e=14103

Vampire GOLD 2.9 running as ATARI

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=2¬e=14104

(http://www.apollo-core.com/gfx/ATARI_POWA.JPG)
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: nicholas on April 08, 2018, 05:12:52 PM
Quote from: Niding;838336
Gold 2.9 released:

RELEASE GOLD 2.9

New features

1) Better support for fast Power-OFF/ON of the AMIGA
2) Allow Software to turn off build-in MAP-ROM to access on board ROM-CHIP.
3) MAPROM mapping support for ATARI Roms
4) Memory Management support for ATARI Memory map
5) FPU speed up (now 51 MFlops at x11 according to Sysinfo)
6) FPU fully working under ATARI OS
7) Press FIRE-buttons on Power-ON will boot EMUTOS (ATARI OS)

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=6¬e=14069

GOLD 2.9 - GFX Card Speed

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=2¬e=14103

Vampire GOLD 2.9 running as ATARI

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=2¬e=14104

(http://www.apollo-core.com/gfx/ATARI_POWA.JPG)


Not as fast as a Firebee then?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Niding on April 08, 2018, 05:15:07 PM
I wouldnt know since I have no expirience with Firebee :)
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on April 08, 2018, 10:03:33 PM
Quote from: bbond007;838175
sounds like he is going to show Vampire working with DCTV :)

Do you actually mean DCTV - the frame-grabber? Or do you mean CDTV?
My V500v2(unsure if it is a + or not) is installed in my CDTV.

Btw, someone can reassure Voijin that I am not seeing "the much improvements" from core to core that he speaks of, all cores from 2.7 to 2.9 have been rather flaky with regards to software compared to 2.5, and it doesn't help with that bastard FPU that cannot be permanently turned off. Well, Gold Core 3 will solve that problem I suppose.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: nicholas on April 08, 2018, 10:24:00 PM
Quote from: Niding;838338
I wouldnt know since I have no expirience with Firebee :)


They are lovely machines.

Would make great AROS boxes.

http://firebee.org/fb-bin/about?lng=EN
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: bbond007 on April 08, 2018, 10:26:22 PM
Quote from: kolla;838343
Do you actually mean DCTV - the frame-grabber? Or do you mean


yes: The 24bit composite & frame grabber thing.

I thought he was talking about that at around 42:00?
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on April 09, 2018, 07:18:18 AM
Quote from: bbond007;838346
yes: The 24bit composite & frame grabber thing.

I thought he was talking about that at around 42:00?


Ah, ok, cool :)
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: sean_sk on April 09, 2018, 08:09:20 AM
Quote from: kolla;838343
Btw, someone can reassure Voijin that I am not seeing "the much improvements" from core to core that he speaks of, all cores from 2.7 to 2.9 have been rather flaky with regards to software compared to 2.5

Agreed. I remember reading a comment that Apollo Core testers had been testing WHDLoad games around the clock for compatibility. Out of all the games I have, the only one I saw that had any improvement was Lotus 2 (it had glitching in GOLD 2.5 and earlier) whereas conversely 6 games have broken since GOLD 2.7 onwards.

It's a little frustrating because I haven't had any replies to my bug reporting and I'm not sure there's any point reporting on the WHDLoad Mantis bug tracker since they may turn around and say: "It's working for us on all our machines, get Gunnar to fix his core." Plus WHDLoad team take ages to respond to bug reports because there are so many of them.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: David Wright on April 09, 2018, 02:48:15 PM
Yes, I have noticed going backwards a bit with new cores.
A few games that played well no longer do.

In graphics Grafx2 has a very dark unusable screen. Personal paint has some weird screen configs no matter what resolution I am using.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: Chucky on April 09, 2018, 07:25:23 PM
Quote from: sean_skroht;838362

It's a little frustrating because I haven't had any replies to my bug reporting and I'm not sure there's any point reporting on the WHDLoad Mantis bug tracker since they may turn around and say: "It's working for us on all our machines, get Gunnar to fix his core." Plus WHDLoad team take ages to respond to bug reports because there are so many of them.



I was reading on another forum about reported bugs with vampire and everyone reported: NO a bug that only appears on vampire is ONLY the vampteam issue.  as it would not be needed to handle..  (especially when they say it is the most compatible solution)

so yup!  you are right. no idea to report that to anyother place than the apollo-team.
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: kolla on April 09, 2018, 09:14:11 PM
It's also rather pointless to report bugs that you already know will fall under "won't fix".
Title: Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
Post by: guibrush on April 10, 2018, 07:56:22 AM
Quote from: kolla;838382
It's also rather pointless to report bugs that you already know will fall under "won't fix".


Always less pointless than trying to argue with you. But anyways, I hold a screenshot of this another false statement for later.