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AuthorTopic: Spirit rover glitch explained.  (Read 3442 times)

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Offline Tigger

Re: Spirit rover glitch explained.
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2004, 06:33:58 PM »
Quote

Glaucus wrote:
@Tig,

Didn't the Soviets/Russians succesfully land probes on Mars?

  - Mike


Two close trys, lots of other misses.   Mars 3 may have transmitted for a little bit less then 20 seconds upon landing in 1971, it then was DOA, there still is a debate about whether this was an actual message or whether it was radio traffic that happens when you drop a lander too hard.  That could have been resolved if the orbiter had not lost fuel, not made its predicted orbit and crashed much earlier then expected, though there are some spectacular pictures from that craft.   Mars 6, sent about 4 minutes of data on its descent before crashing into the surface.   Due to damage caused by its spaceflight, most of the data was useless from the lander.   And thats the closest anyone but the Americans has come, thats why we were cheering for the Beagle2, the ESA would have accomplished a task the Russians had not.  
    -Tig
   
Well you know I am scottish, so I like sheep alot.
     -Fleecy Moss, Gateway 2000 show
 

Offline Glaucus

Re: Spirit rover glitch explained.
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2004, 09:16:02 PM »
Strange how the Ruskies have failed on Mars while have succeeded on Venus. What makes Mars so tricky?!?

  - Mike
YOU ARE NOT IMMUNE
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Spirit rover glitch explained.
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2004, 09:19:12 PM »
Quote

Glaucus wrote:
Strange how the Ruskies have failed on Mars while have succeeded on Venus. What makes Mars so tricky?!?

  - Mike


Mars is really far away.

Offline KennyR

Re: Spirit rover glitch explained.
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2004, 09:23:18 PM »
The Russians never put a man on the moon either. Actually its very surprising what they did manage to do, given that most of their GNP went on their military and nuclear arsenals.
 

Offline Speelgoedmannetje

Re: Spirit rover glitch explained.
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2004, 09:45:05 PM »
Quote

Cymric wrote:
Quote
KennyR wrote:
Making something self-repairing is not the same as making something so simple it wouldn't (and can't) have had errors in the first place. Russian engineering was always clunky and simplistic, but always very sturdy and practical at the same time, from T-34s to rockets. In some cases adding self-repair is even a detriment, not an advantage.

I'm very skeptical at the introduction of high level operating systems to probes at all - these are basically for the human interface. Remove the high level stuff and you can make the chips simpler and sturdier - not to mention cheaper.

Interesting PoV, which I'm sure has been discussed to death in NASAs engineering labs. I think your approach has been rejected simply because the mission profile is too complex to be handled by what you call something 'clunky and simplistic'. It's simply an optimisation problem. Given a mission profile where small failures are a certainty, is a design made up from *lots* of simple, sturdy and stupid components better than a design made up from *a few* yet smart and self-repairing ones? Remember, lots of components weigh more than a few, and weight is an expensive commodity to carry around. And you are always facing the problem that in if in case of clunky and simplistic things *do* go wrong, you have just spent hundreds of millions of dollars to put some metal and advanced plastics on a big round rock.

My point: the problem is too complex to be dealt with by 'simpler is better' mantras.
Funny thing is that you say app. the same as I say, but with more words and smoother language usage. :-)
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Offline blobrana

Re: Spirit rover glitch explained.
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2004, 09:54:48 PM »
But did you notice how errors crept into his typing...?

if he had used fewer words then the chance would be lowered, (but the meaning is quite clear with the errors, due to the bulk context) :-)

Offline Tigger

Re: Spirit rover glitch explained.
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2004, 06:08:06 AM »
Quote

Glaucus wrote:
Strange how the Ruskies have failed on Mars while have succeeded on Venus. What makes Mars so tricky?!?


With its orbit, its usually at least twice as far away from us then Venus, plus its twice as far from the Sun, which isnt good for solar power, and it has a thin atmosphere (compared to us or Venus soup).    
    -Tig
Well you know I am scottish, so I like sheep alot.
     -Fleecy Moss, Gateway 2000 show
 

Offline iamaboringperson

Re: Spirit rover glitch explained.
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2004, 06:32:11 AM »
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Making something self-repairing is not the same as making something so simple it wouldn't (and can't) have had errors in the first place.
Like a rock. :-)




I don't think that simplicity is the way to improve reliability. Redundancy is a much better way.

Just look at todays web/email/database servers! Loads of redundacy there! You'll find that a server is a more complex machine than your average workstation. And it's that way for a reason.


These devices certainly don't need to be made simpler, just more reliable (or perhaps they can be tested a little more?)


Whichever way they go, they sure are quite successful in doing what is not an easy task.

 

Offline Tigger

Re: Spirit rover glitch explained.
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2004, 06:40:47 AM »
Quote

KennyR wrote:
The Russians never put a man on the moon either. Actually its very surprising what they did manage to do, given that most of their GNP went on their military and nuclear arsenals.


Yeah, but that have been to the moon and brought rocks back from the moon.   Its not a technical feat they are incapable of doing, they have however killed all 8 of their Mars landers and basically all 16 Mars efforts have been pretty dismal from the USSR.  Next year we launch the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, which will be able to find all those crashed vehicles since it will be able to pick up items as small as a dinner plate on the surface of mars all the way from Orbit, and then in 2009 we launch the Mars Science Laboratory which theoretically will run for years on its nuclear power cells
    -Tig

             
Well you know I am scottish, so I like sheep alot.
     -Fleecy Moss, Gateway 2000 show
 

Offline odin

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Re: Spirit rover glitch explained.
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2004, 12:23:05 PM »
Hm, so there's gonna be nukeplants put on a big pile of explosives? Wouldn't want to be around it when the launch fails :nervous:.

Offline odin

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Re: Spirit rover glitch explained.
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2004, 01:48:57 PM »
Found this link in some a.orger's sig :lol:.


Offline whabang

Re: Spirit rover glitch explained.
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2004, 01:51:46 PM »
Quote

odin wrote:
Hm, so there's gonna be nukeplants put on a big pile of explosives? Wouldn't want to be around it when the launch fails :nervous:.

:lol:
Beating the dead horse since 2002.
 

Offline Tigger

Re: Spirit rover glitch explained.
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2004, 06:04:10 PM »
Quote

odin wrote:
Hm, so there's gonna be nukeplants put on a big pile of explosives? Wouldn't want to be around it when the launch fails :nervous:.


The US has done 7 I believe in the past, a challenger like explosion of the craft in question would not harm the system.  The Russians may well have done more then us, my link to that info is not operating at the moment.
     -Tig
Well you know I am scottish, so I like sheep alot.
     -Fleecy Moss, Gateway 2000 show