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Offline KarlosTopic starter

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"Friendly Fire"
« on: February 06, 2007, 11:06:23 AM »
Transcript here

Now, I wonder why the US Military were reluctant to release this? Could it be because it shows just how inept their procedures are?

(emphasis mine)

Quote

1336.30 MANILA HOTEL: POPOV from MANILA HOTEL. Can you confirm you engaged that tube and those vehicles?
1336.36 POPOV35: Affirm Sir. Looks like I've got multiple vehicles in reverts at about 800 metres to the north of your arty rounds. Can you switch fire, and shift fire, and get some arty rounds on those?
1336.47 MANILA HOTEL: Roger, I understand that those are the impacts you observed earlier on my timing?
1336.51 POPOV35: Affirmative.
1336.52 MANILA HOTEL: Roger, standby. Let me make sure they're not on another mission.
1336.57 POPOV36: Hey, I got a four ship. Looks like we got orange panels on them though. Do we have any friendlies up in this area?
1337.03 MANILA HOTEL: I understand that was north 800 metres.
1337.12 MANILA HOTEL: POPOV, understand that was north 800 metres?
1337.16 POPOV35: Confirm, north 800 metres. Confirm there are no friendlies this far north on the ground.
1337.21 MANILA HOTEL: That is an affirm. You are well clear of friendlies.
1337.25 POPOV35: Copy. I see multiple riveted vehicles. Some look like flatbed trucks and others are green vehicles. Can't quite make out the type. Look like may be ZIL157s (Russian made trucks used by Iraqi army).
1337.36 MANILA HOTEL: Roger. That matches our Intel up there. And understand you also have the other fixed wing up this push? For terminal control, if you can.
1337.44 POPOV35: I'd love to. I didn't talk to him yet.
1337.46 MANILA HOTEL: Roger, I believe CASPER is up this push too. Two Super Tomcats.
1337.54 POPOV35: Hey dude.
1337.56 POPOV36: I got a four ship of vehicles that are evenly spaced along a road going north.
1338.04 POPOV36: Look down at your right, 2 o'clock, at 10 o'clock low, there is a, left 10 o'clock low, look down there north along that canal, right there. Coming up just south of the village.
1338.21 POPOV35: Evenly spaced? Where we strafed?
1338.23 POPOV36: No. No. Further east, further west, right now. And there's four or five of them right now heading up there.
1338.29 POPOV35: No, I don't have you visual.
1338.30 POPOV36: I'm back at your 6 - no factor.
1338.31 POPOV35: OK, now where's this canal?
1338.35 POPOV35: Don't hit those F18s that are out there.
1338.38 POPOV36: OK. Right underneath you. Right now, there's a canal that runs north/south. There's a small village, and there are vehicles that are spaced evenly there.
1338.49 POPOV36: They look like they have orange panels on though.
1338.51 POPOV35: He told me, he told me there's nobody north of here.
1338.52 POPOV36: I know. There, right on the river.
1338.53 POPOV35: I see vehicles though, might be our original dudes.
1339.09 POPOV36: They've got something orange on top of them.
1339.10 POPOV35: POPOV for MANILA 3, is MANILA 34 in this area?
1339.14 MANILA HOTEL: Say again?
1339.15 POPOV35: MANILA HOTEL, is MANILA 34 in this area?
1339.19 MANILA HOTEL: Negative. Understand they are well clear of that now.
1339.23 POPOV35: OK, copy. Like I said, multiple riveted vehicles. They look like flatbed trucks. Are those your targets?
1339.30 MANILA HOTEL: That's affirm.
1339.31 POPOV35: OK.
1339.34 POPOV36: Let me ask you one question.
1339.35 POPOV35: What's that?
1339.45 POPO36: (to MANILA HOTEL) Hey, tell me what type of rocket launchers you got up here?
1339.50 POPOV36: I think they're rocket launchers.
1339.52 MANILA HOTEL: . . . (garbled) You were stepped on, say again.
1339.54 POPOV35: MANILA HOTEL, fire your arty (artillery) up that 800 metres north, and see how we do.
1340.01 MANILA HOTEL: Roger, standby for shot. They are getting adjustments to the guns now.
1340.34 POPOV35: Copy.
1340.09 POPOV36: Roll up your right wing and look right underneath you.
1340.12 POPOV35: (angry) I know what you're talking about.
1340.13 POPOV36: OK, well they got orange rockets on them.
1340.17 POPOV35: Orange rockets?
1340.17 POPOV36: Yeah, I think so.
1340.18 POPOV35: Let me look.
1340.26 POPOV35: We need to think about getting home.
1340.29 POPOV36: 3.6 is what it says (a fuel measurement).
1340.31 POPOV35: Yeah, I know. I'm talking time wise.
1340.35 POPOV36: I think killing these damn rocket launchers, it would be great.
(The tape then becomes garbled)
1340.52 MANILA HOTEL: Yeah, POPOV36, MANILA HOTEL. I've got other aircraft up this push. Not sure they're coming to me. Someone else might be working this freak.
1341.00 POPOV35: Yeah, MANILA34 is working them, break, break.
1340.12 POPOV36: Yeah, I see that, you see I'm going to roll down.
1340.15 MANILA 34: Break, be advised MANILA34 is not working the F18s unless they are trying to check in with me, over.
1341.21 POPOV35: Copy.
1341.24 POPOV36:
OK, do you see the orange things on top of them?
1341.32 MANILA HOTEL: POPOV 36 from MANILA HOTEL. Are you able to switch to Crimson?
1341.37 POPOV36: POPOV 36 is rolling in.
1341.40 MANILA HOTEL: Tell you what.
1341.41 POPOV35: I'm coming off west. You roll in. It looks like they are exactly what we're talking about.
1341.49 POPOV36: We got visual.
1341.50 POPOV36: OK. I want to get that first one before he gets into town then.
1341.53 POPOV35: Get him - get him.
1341.55 POPOV36: All right, we got rocket launchers, it looks like. Number 2 is rolling in from the south to the north, and 2's in.
1342.04 POPOV35: Get it.
POPOV36, "rolls in" for an attack and turns his A-10 into a vertical dive to strafe the British column, destroying two Scimitar armoured vehicles and killing L/Cpl of Horse Matty Hull.
1342.09 - GUNFIRE -
1342.18 POPOV35: I'm off your west.
1342.22 POPOV35: Good hits.
1342.29 POPOV36: Got a visual.
1342.30 POPOV35: I got a visual. You're at your high 10.
1342.31 POPOV36: Gotcha.
1342.30 POPOV36: That's what you think they are, right?
1342.39 POPOV35: It looks like it to me, and I got my goggles on them now.
1342.59 POPOV35: OK, I'm looking at getting down low at this.
1343.13 MANILA HOTEL: POPOV 36 from MANILA HOTEL, guns . . .
1343.17 MANILA HOTEL: To engage those targets in the revetts (slopes).
1343.24 POPOV36: It looks like he is hauling ass. Ha ha. Is that what you think they are?
1343.34 POPOV36: 1-2
1343.35 POPOV35: It doesn't look friendly.
1343.38 POPOV36: OK, I'm in again from the south.
1343.40 POPOV35: Ok.
1343.47 - GUNFIRE -
1343.54 LIGHTNING 34: POPOV 34, LIGHTNING 34.
1344.09 POPOV35: POPOV 35, LIGHTNING 34 GO.
1344.12 LIGHTNING 34: Roger, POPOV. Be advised that in the 3122 and 3222 group box you have friendly armour in the area. Yellow, small armoured tanks. Just be advised.
1344.16 POPOV35: Ahh s***.
1344.19 P0POV35: Got a - got a smoke.
1344.21 LIGHTNING 34: Hey, POPOV34, abort your mission. You got a, looks we might have a blue on blue situation.
1344.25 POPOV35: F***. God bless it.
1344.29 POPOV35: POPOV 34.
1344.35 POPOV35: F***, f***, f***.
1344.36 MANILA 34: POPOV34, this is MANILA 34. Did you copy my last, over?
1344.39 POPOV35: I did.
1344.47 POPOV35: Confirm those are friendlies on that side of the canal.
1344.51 POPOV35: S***.
1344.58 MANILA 34: Standby POPOV.
1345.04 POPOV36: God dammit.
1344.14 MANILA HOTEL: Hey POPOV 36, from MANILA HOTEL.
1344.25 MANILA 34: OK POPOV. Just west of the 3-4 easting. On the berm up there, the 3422 area is where we have our friendlies, over.
1344.39 POPOV35: All right, POPOV 35 has smoke. Let me know how those friendlies are right now, please.
1344.45 MANILA 34: Roger, standby.
1344.49 POPOV35: Gotta go home dude.
1344.50 POPOV36: Yeah, I know. We're f***ed.
1345.54 POPOV35: S***.
1346.01 POPOV36: As you cross the circle, you are 3 o'clock low.
1346.03 POPOV35: Roger.
1346.12 POPOV35: POPOV 35 is Bingo. Let us know what's happening.
13446.15 MANILA HOTEL: Roger. We are getting that information for you right now. Standby.
1346.20 POPOV36: F***.
1346.47 MANILA 34: POPOV, this is MANILA 34 over.
1346.51 POPOV35: Go.
1346.55 MANILA 34: POPOV 4, MANILA 34 over.
1347.01 POPOV35: Go.
1347.02 MANILA 34: We are getting an initial brief that there was one killed and one wounded, over.
1347.09 POPOV35: Copy. RTB (return to base).
1347.18 POPOV35: I'm going to be sick.
1347.24 POPOV36: Ah f***.
1347.48 POPOV35: Did you hear?
1347.51 POPOV36: Yeah, this sucks.
1347.52 POPOV35: We're in jail dude.
1347.59 POPOV36: Aaaahhhh.
1348.12 SKY CHIEF: MANILA this is SKY CHIEF over.
1348.18 MANILA34: This is MANILA 34, send SKY CHIEF.
1348.22 COSTA58: SKY CHIEF, SKY CHIEF. COSTA 58.
1348.25 MANILA HOTEL: SKY CHIEF, this is MANILA HOTEL.
1348.30 COSTA58: SKY CHIEF, SKY CHIEF. COSTA 58.
1348.41 SKY CHIEF: Relaying for TWINACT, the A-10s are running against friendlies.
1348.47 COSTA58: POPOV 35, this is COSTA58. Relaying message for TWINACT. Abort, abort.
1348.54 SKY CHIEF: MANILA how copy A-10s are running against friendlies. Abort. Over.
1349.07 COSTA58: From TWINACT, abort, abort.
1349. 11 POPOV35: POPOV 35 aborting.
1349.14 COSTA58: We will relay that back to TWINACT.
1349.18 POPOV36: F***. God f***ing s***.
1350.21 POPOV36: Dammit. F***ing damn it.
1351.17 P0POV36: God dammit. F*** me dead (weeping).
1351.25 POPOV35: You with me?
1351.27 POPOV36: Yeah.
1351.30 POPOV35: They did say there were no friendlies.
1351.33 POPOV36: Yeah, I know that thing with the orange panels is going to screw us. They look like orange rockets on top.
1351.48 POPOV35: Your tape still on?
1351.49 POPOV36: Yeah.
1351.54 POPOV35: Mine is end of tape.


Notice how they engage a target without knowing for sure what it is, then go at it a second time, still without being certain?

Its also quite disturbing that pilots of a tankbuster can't distinguish a tank from a flatbed truck.
int p; // A
 

Offline jkirk

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Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2007, 01:39:27 PM »
where is the "shakes my head in disbelief" smiley?
or not so smiley

holy crap!!

time for a retraining exercise. telescopic cameras would be useful in situations like this. along with a friend or foe detection system.

it is also on cnn.com
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Offline mick_aka

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Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2007, 03:48:53 PM »
I'll never forget the news flash about the British armoured car taken out by American A-10's, it was approached from the rear on which it had painted a massive Union Jack.

 

Offline X-ray

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Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2007, 06:12:04 PM »
There is no doubt on this one, they screwed up badly.
 

Offline nadoom

Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2007, 07:21:14 PM »
you can see the full video on the sun web site.

www.thesun.co.uk
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Offline odin

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Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2007, 07:31:42 PM »
Well, war is hell and all the training and precautions can't garantuee that stuff like this doesn't happen. In the end every death is one too many, be it friendly or foe.

Offline KarlosTopic starter

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Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2007, 08:21:04 PM »
I'm just waiting for Metalman to post a few links to articles explaining how it was all the British army's fault...

This, being a high profile case means we have ultimately gotten a bit of insight into "operational procedure" there.

It makes me wonder. How many times were there conflicting reports between news agencies (both local and global) regarding airstrikes against civillian targets that competed with the US military insistance that said targets were purely insurgents/whatever?

If they can shoot up their own allies in this "trigger-happy", lax manner, doesn't that actually cast reasonable doubt on at least some of the cases above?

It's not like the they would take any greater care over civilians compared to their own troops/allies and it's also not the case that said civillians could insist on an inquest or obtain any kind of footage to prove their side of the story.

Call me cynical...
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Offline Wilse

Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2007, 09:02:14 PM »
Quote

odin wrote:
Well, war is hell and all the training and precautions can't garantuee that stuff like this doesn't happen. In the end every death is one too many, be it friendly or foe.


You know Odin, that's what I was thinking.
At the end of the day, the man who lost his life was just a soldier doing his job.
If he'd been Iraqi, he would still have been just a soldier doing his job.

Sure, it's tragic but so is the whole war.

Offline Wilse

Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2007, 09:06:02 PM »
@Karlos:

Quote
If they can shoot up their own allies in this "trigger-happy", lax manner, doesn't that actually cast reasonable doubt on at least some of the cases above?


I don't think there is a person alive who would, providing they are both honest and posess a brain, disagree with that statement.

Offline adz

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Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2007, 02:29:17 AM »
Quote

Karlos wrote:
I'm just waiting for Metalman to post a few links to articles explaining how it was all the British army's fault...


No doubt our man'o'metal believes that unless you're an "American", you are the enemy...

Regarding the incident itself, it isn't the first case of friendly fire and it won't be the last, its just another ugly biproduct of something even uglier, war.
 

Offline metalman

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Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2007, 06:52:04 AM »
Blue on Blue Friendly fire is still an inescapable part of armed conflict.

On D-Day at Normandy, naval gunfire was directed against the church steeple in Colleville on the assumption that enemy observers were using it. The town was already in American hands, 64 men were lost.

Friendly fire is seldom acknowledged. Hill 282 in Korea is an example. September 22nd, 1950, the British 1st Battalion of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. The Argylls were fighting back waves of North Koreans covered by a heavy barrage of artillery and mortar fire. But they were running low on ammunition, stripping their injured and dead of spare magazines as the officers exhorted them to make every shot count.  The Argylls called for an American air strike. They put out their air recognition panels. According to the Court of Enquiry after the event, the North Koreans also put out air recognition panels of their own. However, the Argylls placed Red/Yellow or Crimson & Gold recognition panels, the correct colors of the day, were the white recognition panels the North Korean laid out. 150 men were killed or wounded. The British Government decreed the details of Hill 282 be kept a secret until 2025. The US government released documents on H-282 in 1974.

The friendly fire toll for personnel during the First Gulf War was about 20% of all combat casualties. Nearly 75% of all vehicle losses were also friendly fire as were 100% of destroyed M-1 tanks.

The first reported Blue on Blue incident during Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF) occurred on March 24, 2003 when a British Challenger II tank destroyed another near Basra.

Friendly fire has many causes and solutions are only temporary. By the time a truly adequate solution has been developed, a new weapon or new technique brings on some new problem, or the enemy is able to mimic and break the system.
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Offline X-ray

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Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2007, 07:20:32 AM »
I think these friendly fire incidents will always happen, and they are probably best analysed individually.
However in this case with the A10s there is clear evidence that procedure wasn't followed. When you have no combat experience, you better make damn sure of your target!
 

Offline metalman

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Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2007, 08:07:05 AM »
There were problems with communications between ground and air and many things going on for the pilots to keep track of. There were Hornets and Tomcats flying in the area that they are trying to stay clear of. There is artillary firing, which means gun-target lines they have to be aware of. They asked repeatedly if there are friendlies on the ground in their working area and been told "no". They were low on fuel. The pilots did not identify the orange panels as indicating friendlies, but convinced themselves the identification panels were really orange rocket launchers. The British are were they weren't expected to be. Neither pilot gave target references. Mistakes were made.

In war, seconds count, the opportunities for accidents increase exponentially.
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Offline mick_aka

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Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2007, 10:18:17 AM »
There are many factors to be considered when discussing friendly fire incidents, famously on d-day American paratroops were dropped behind enemy lines with radios that had been shipped from America with the wrong crystals in them crippling their communication and often meaning they came under fire from friendly artillery totally unable to identify themselves to far away units.

In Afghanistan we had 4 Canadians killed by a 500lb bobm dropped by an American pilot, incidentally I believe the one fatality in the original posted story was also Canadian.

Do you realise up until rescently the Americans had killed more british soldiers than the Iraqis?!

I mean ok, friendly fire happens, but flag down a cab and head for real street here man, the utter incompitence of US personnel has to be held in account, if a trained pilot cannot visually identify friendly vehicles they should not be in the air, they are trained to do this.
And if in any doubt, you dont bloody fire at them!

Im damn sure americans dont give a rats ass about how many Brits or Canadians their brave boys out in 'eye-rak' blow up, knowing the American millitary intimately I dare say theres some sort of friendly fire medal for them on the horizon.


"British soldiers in Iraq are being shot at on a daily basis, although obviously it'll get much safer when the Americans leave and it's only the Iraqis firing at them."
 

Offline jkirk

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Re: "Friendly Fire"
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2007, 11:08:43 AM »
Quote

Karlos wrote:

This, being a high profile case means we have ultimately gotten a bit of insight into "operational procedure" there.


Call me cynical...


cynical :-)

actually i don't think we have seen any insight to operational procedure. what we have seen is a total lack of it in this case. the problem with general statements such as this is you will only see and hear about the mistakes. you will never hear about successes or when the procedures were followed to the letter. most of the time you won't even hear about near-misses except the most extreme cases. so making a general statement such as this makes no sense.

this is a sad event one that needs full investigation and corrective actions implemented. meaning the pilots/controllers/anyone involved need retraining or punishment for neglecting the procedures and for not being sure of their target.

my heart goes out to the family of the killed soldier and hope his death was not in vain. :-(
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