OS4 moves to x86. What happens next?

[kolla]

You forgot a few...

3. Darwin, the core of OSX, had already been running on x86 many years already
4. NextStep, the OS from which the "upper layers" of OSX was developed, was also running on x86 for many years already.

Really, the switch to Intel from PowerPC for Apple was really a simple one, the biggest obstacle was to have all the application developers do the switch as well, some of them were just finnished moving their apps from OS9, many still hanging onto toolkits that existed in OSX only for providing easier porting from OS9. And then Apple switched again, leaving 32bit behind... some of the application developing companies are rather exhausted at this point

[Heiroglyph]

Hyperion make an OS and that's it. OS4 would be just a box on the shelf you install on some fugly PC.

Right now OS4 is just a box sitting on Hyperion's shelf due to the cost of hardware.

Nobody except maybe Mac die-hards want to pay a premium for a PC.  They are just a commodity these days like buying nails or gasoline.

Nobody cares who made it, they want a deal and they want it to work.

The only thing Hyperion have going for them is the software and yet they are limiting its use, which makes no sense to me.

If they were even targeting old Macs it wouldn't be so glaringly obvious, but they don't even do that.

[persia]

But HYperion claims to have rewritten OS 4 from scratch using the 3.1 source files as reference.  Surely the OS would be mainly in C with some PPC/UBoot loader in assembler.  So what they would need is a new bootloader that worked with EFI and then fix the fix C code that handled the bits backwards.  OS 9 to OSX  was more complex because it was NextStep based and there had to be a Carbon layer to handle legacy apps.

Does HYperion used any hardware dongles on the motherboards?

[desantii]

To me moving to x86 would loose the Amiga charm as well, only thing X86 related that I like is UAE.

Now that I am getting my "classics" more and more updated, I ma enjoying them very much.

I think a move to x86 would alienate a lot of people, that really like the classics (Ito me PPC as far as classic will go)

I think it would be a shame if the Amiga moved over to X86, because like others have said Amiga would be just another OS rather than a unique h/w & s/w platform in its own right. I also like, and feel the need for a strong connection with the original Amiga kit from the 80/90s
 
PPc likely has enough legs to do most of what is required in the modern world - especially optimised for one platform. I wonder if there is any way of making the price more competitive? I guess it all depends on how you view Amiga computing in the modern world, e.g. hobby computing or a standard desktop work horse. As a work horse compared with the faceless stuff down PC World it is horrendously expensive, but as a unique, vibrant and interesting hobby it is excellent value for money with a great community behind it. I would say stop trying to compete with the mainstream and accept and enjoy 'Amiga' for its vibrancy, and uniqueness
 
I think a modern PPc card for the classic Amiga's would go along way towards getting more people involved and interested in OS4 - the market for classic Amiga seems very vibrant and well backed reviewing the price of second hand PPc cards etc. Also there are lots of 30+ year old kids(!) like me who are now in a position to buy that go faster turbo card we could never afford back in the day! But the connection -for me at least - would have to be there with the classic machines.
 
Amiga will win through as a unique interesting product steeped in History - as a standalone OS on X86 it will struggle because it would have little genuine connection with the past and only a very small developer base compared with Linux and Windows, in my humble opinion.
 
Stay original and niche!!

[Iggy]

Maybe if you guys push this issue hard enough, Hyperion will move to X86.
Then the only people Treavor and A-eon could market their hardware would be to those of us using MorphOS.
We get a new system (that most of us think is really cool) and Hyperion gets to compete with Microsoft and Apple instead of with MOS.
And, as has been mentioned before, they'll be charging for their OS while AROS will still be free.

One consistant thing you can count on with Amigans. They don't understand business or economics. Outside in the real world, Hyperion would get crushed.

I understand their reluctance to move in the direction you guys are suggesting and hope to have them around fora while longer as competitors (and an attraction to developers which might also support MOS).


How well do you guys think that will work?

[NovaCoder]

I guess the answer to the question is not a lot would happen.

Hyperion have already said they have no compelling reason to switch to x86 and I can see their point.  Ok, say that OS4 x86 was released today and it supported a single MB/Graphics chipset (eg ION ATOM for example), would they suddenly magically sell 1000's of OS4 copies....no, of course not.

And how would everyone who has invested in a SAM feel?   Pretty pissed off I reckon.

Things would probably have worked out a bit differently if Amiga hadn't gone down the PPC road back in 95, in that case it would have gone x86 years ago (with a decent x68 emulation layer) and AROS wouldn't even exist right now.  It would be very hard for Hyperion to now come up with an x86 OS4 with decent support for classic x68 applications and the newer PPC stuff.

If you look at the current OS market shares it's quite interesting.   Windows is way out ahead with something like 90% of the market share, OSX is second with about 5% and then Unix (all flavours) brings up the rear with about 1%.   Now you have to ask yourself, if something as impressive as Ubuntu which is free, has wide hardware support and is reasonably well marketed struggles to get near %1 market share...how can OS4 ever be anything but a very small player in a niche market?

[Fingers]

I'd love to see data on this, but I heavily suspect that the amount of non-amiga folks using morph or aros is a distinct minority.

Does none count as a minority? I've got friends with MorphOS compatible Macs & I cannot convince any of the to try out MOS...they just look at me like I'm mad! LOL

PZ.

[Iggy]

Does none count as a minority? I've got friends with MorphOS compatible Macs & I cannot convince any of the to try out MOS...they just look at me like I'm mad! LOL

PZ.

At least one, myself. I was familiar with the Amiga (actually pretty much all personal computers) as I'd started using/building my own computers in the late '70's and since then I've stayed pretty informed on the industry as a whole.

Trust me, since I managed a company in the late 80's that built 68000 computers, I really hoped that Intel wouldn't gain dominance (in fact, to this day I base my X86 systems on AMD CPUs because without competition Intel would still be selling us crap like the P4).

Some when started to buy some old hardware (out of nostalgia) I looked at used Amigas. Good God man! The pricing is insane (especially for old hardware).
So I tried Amiga Forever, found it usable, but still not quite what I wanted.

Then, when the MorphOS team started to support equipment other than the Pegasos, I tried MOS, found I liked it, and have adopted it as my primary OS.

Of course I've still got systems that will boot Ubuntu and Windows, but in the last week I've used nothing but MOS.

So, like I said, the minority contains at least one (and I do believe we could convert others).

[Heiroglyph]

What makes people think that on x86 they would suddenly be in competition with Microsoft and that if you can't get to 50% marketshare you stop?

Compared to the Amiga market, a tiny piece of the PC market would be like striking gold.

The only thing that would change is that the number of people who could try AOS would suddenly be in the millions.

If a minute fraction of them bought a copy, the sales and user base increase would be exponentially larger than on high priced, hard to find (for the average user) PPC systems.

You have to already love it in order to invest in PPC hardware, so the market is doomed to only shrink.

You really need the hobby users that follow Linux, FreeBSD, etc. and ex-Amiga users with fond memories in order to get anywhere at all.

[runequester]

What makes people think that on x86 they would suddenly be in competition with Microsoft and that if you can't get to 50% marketshare you stop?

Compared to the Amiga market, a tiny piece of the PC market would be like striking gold.

The only thing that would change is that the number of people who could try AOS would suddenly be in the millions.

If a minute fraction of them bought a copy, the sales and user base increase would be exponentially larger than on high priced, hard to find (for the average user) PPC systems.

You have to already love it in order to invest in PPC hardware, so the market is doomed to only shrink.

You really need the hobby users that follow Linux, FreeBSD, etc. and ex-Amiga users with fond memories in order to get anywhere at all.

If AROS hasn't brought them in the past several years, I have my doubts the amiga name would.

[kedawa]

AROS has had almost no exposure and hasn't reached a 1.0 release yet.  I wouldn't consider it a litmus test for the possible success of x86 AOS.

[amiga92570]

To me moving to x86 would loose the Amiga charm as well, only thing X86 related that I like is UAE.

Now that I am getting my "classics" more and more updated, I ma enjoying them very much.

I think a move to x86 would alienate a lot of people, that really like the classics (Ito me PPC as far as classic will go)

Moving to X86 would pick up more new users than it would alienate old users. After all it isn't like Mac where they have millions of users. I would say maybe they lose 50 old users, and pick up 50, 000 new depending on the price of the OS. I know many  young people try new things just to be different. Look at IBM warp, I still use that on an old laptop as I know many others that do as well. Lots of ATM machines are still run with Warp.

[jj]

There is no possible success for AOS4 on X86.  You might get a few extra people buy it who remeber the Amiga fondly.  But then what will they run it because there will be no apps so will be emualtion within.  Just use WinUAE.
 
The path was chosen its too late to change now.  I am not saying this because I am  some sort ot PPC fanboy or x86 hater.  I dont care really what stuff runs on.
 
i just don't see any point/advantages/justification for moving cpu base.

[amiga92570]

There is no possible success for AOS4 on X86.  You might get a few extra people buy it who remeber the Amiga fondly.  But then what will they run it because there will be no apps so will be emualtion within.  Just use WinUAE.
 
The path was chosen its too late to change now.  I am not saying this because I am  some sort ot PPC fanboy or x86 hater.  I dont care really what stuff runs on.
 
i just don't see any point/advantages/justification for moving cpu base.

I agree, I was just stating that they would probably get more new users than losing old ones due to the few users that use OS4 anyways. They would however, sell copies to new users out of curiousity. I agree until they have some applications not available to other OS versions there is no chance of this thing taking off as I previously stated in another post. I Purchased OS4 for classic and did not really care for it. I would not purchase it again with or without a machine attached unless I could have software I do not already have to run on it.

[warpdesign]

2: Time and money required to port applications.Without app's, an OS is worthless.

Most current OS4 have already been ported to x86, and even better: AROS. So no time nor money involved here...

3: Oh hey there AROS! What functionality does os4 give that AROS doesn't ?

It's the same with Linux PowerPC, MacOS PowerPC,... What functionnality does OS4 give than these don't ?

4: Most overlooked:
Hardware support.
AROS has been around for years and still supports a fairly limited range of hardware.

Well, it's fairly limited but still a lot less limited than current OS.

But going x86 isn't supposed to bring so much hardware choice. It's about to give access to cheap hardware. You could select for example a motherboard from ASUS, and only support this one.

The assumption in these threads tends to be "we could run amiga OS on any PC and it'd be rad". And that would rad, but it won't be reality.

Of course not.

5: User base.
Is there any actual user base in a world saturated with mature OS choices ?

Well, is there any actual user base when you produce 500 machines per year (and I'm optimistic)... I don't know what would happen if it was available on x86. What's sure is that hundreds of millions of machines are sold each year. That's certainly a lot more potential than anything produced in the Amiga "market"... 0.001% of this market would mean 2000 new Amiga users a year...

Pessimistic ? Maybe

Optimistic ? Maybe

But we'll never know unless they decide to make the move... And as we would say in french... "qui ne tente rien n'arrive à rien" (Nothing ventured, nothing gained)

What's sure is that PowerPC is dead-end, unless you target some embbed market, which clearly isn't what Amiga users do.

[SamuraiCrow]

AROS has had almost no exposure and hasn't reached a 1.0 release yet.  I wouldn't consider it a litmus test for the possible success of x86 AOS.

I would.  AROS has shader support under Mesa using NVidia graphics cards using the Nouveau drivers under Gallium3D.  AmigaOS 4.x doesn't support shaders at all and MiniGL is based on Warp3D which is not capable of shaders at this time.  

On the other hand, the 1.0 release of AROS ABIs are expected in a few months and will prompt recompilation of all the apps due to incompatibility with AmigaOS 3.1 sources.