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Author Topic: Layers.library V45 on the aminet  (Read 65944 times)

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Offline Minuous

Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« on: September 12, 2014, 06:14:55 PM »
>The community prefers open source? Really? Where is the help regarding Aros 68k? I read lots of excuses why not helping but noone jumping in.

I'm interested in working on the proper AmigaOS, not some half-baked clone of it. Probably others feel the same way. Why spend years coding all the missing functionality into AROS just to get us to the point we are already at with OS3.9?

>There are three branches of AmigaOs where you could contribute. Os 4.0, Morphos and Aros. Now, please take your pick.

OS4 and MOS are not open source, and their developers probably wouldn't welcome unsolicited binary patches. So I'm not sure how people are supposed to contribute to them.

>Or you can also try to talk to owners whether releases are possible, a forth possibility. As you can see from the very theme of this thread, I did this and I succeeded. For one library. Apparently, you're still demanding more. It's a slow going, what exactly do you expect?

It might be possible to get sources to a few components by this method, and I certainly do appreciate the effort you are making, but it is never going to lead to full sources for the whole OS. The only realistic method for achieving this is a H&P bounty for the release of OS3.9 sources.
 

Offline Minuous

Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2014, 07:07:56 PM »
>But then make it less half-baked by contributing to it.

I don't see the point of rewriting ReAction, Installer and all the rest from scratch when I already have them...I don't really have time to do that and write applications too. Even if I did, there's no reason to think they would get put into AROS, as it seems fairly clear that they are MUI zealots, standards be damned. Plus even a complete reimplementation would still be just a reimplementation, not the real thing.

>You need to talk to the people and offer your service. The result will not be open source, though. You'll probably need to sign a NDA or some other form of contract.  Or only if you *also* invest the same amount of work. Yes, it is *really* that simple.

Why would anyone want to do unpaid work on a piece of closed-source commercial software which is still being sold!? In the case of OS4 I don't even have a machine that will run it (not having a spare $5000 or so lying around), so it's out of the question. And as you point out, the result still would not be open source.

>I'm just saying that your demand is quite unrealistic.  
>But again, if you want something somebody else spend a lot of time and sweat in building, you shouldn't expect to get this for free.

I'm not demanding anything, what am I expecting to get for free? I have pointed out some of what's missing from AROS which keeps me on OS3.9, from a user perspective. I'm not demanding anyone else implement this, it seems obvious after 15 years that it won't be implemented. They're wondering why people don't want to use AROS, and I'm giving them the answer. As simple as that. Surely I have the right to say why I don't use something without having to volunteer years of unpaid labour on a piece of software I don't even like. By that logic, if I say why I don't like Windows, I have to go do unpaid work for Microsoft.

>Well, then set this up if you think this is going to work. I don't know how much you're going to pay for that, but if you can pay out Animo and/or H&P, and the developers that contributed to 3.9, that may also work.

I wouldn't be able to contribute much but I would certainly put some money towards such a bounty. I don't know whether I would be the best one to negotiate with them on the community's behalf though. I'd rather such an important bounty be managed by someone who has already a proven track record of managing bounties, if that's at all possible.

More on topic, I can confirm the incompatibility of Birdie with the new layers.library. Do you know which of the two components is to blame?
 

Offline Minuous

Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2014, 03:50:00 AM »
>But you expect others that they make their work available for free and invest this time? How charming...

Where have I said that I expect this? I don't want anything for free. All my programs are already open source freeware. I don't have unlimited time/motivation for coding, if I work on one thing, it comes at the expense of working on another thing.

I'm not an AROS developer and I don't want to be an AROS developer. Same goes for MOS and OS4. (I'm speaking of OS development here, not application development.) Reimplementing the same things 4 times for 4 similar-but-different OSes doesn't seem a very efficient way of moving things forwards.

>But then it's your turn to change it. Why don't you implement the missing bits and pieces, after all?

I suppose I could answer every bug report I get about my software in this manner: "It's open source, fix it yourself."

>No, by that logic you can either buy another product

Yes, I bought OS3.9.

>What's unreal about a re-implementation?

Neither the source nor the binary would be the same. The handling of undocumented functionality would also probably be erroneous. Unless one was to look at a disassembled AmigaOS to confirm, which is not allowed when reverse engineering. Additionally, a release of official AmigaOS source would be more likely to gain interest and/or attention from the wider (non-Amiga) community.

>Why would you want to do unpaid work on closed-source commercial software that runs on obsolete hardware? This is neither logical.

Well, not to get rich, that's for sure. But it makes more sense than working on OS4/MOS, at least no one would be making money off my hard work.

>If the makers of AROS prefer MUI, then that's it.

Fine, they should stop pretending it's somehow equivalent to the official AmigaOS though. And I certainly am not interested in using, let alone developing, such a program.

>none will open source amiga system, none will probably even answer to such enquiries, none will establish a bounty and almost none will contribute to it.

Why do you say this? There have been many successful bounties to open source Amiga applications, eg. DOpus. Surely it is at least worth making the attempt before giving up.

>But it is no option that Microsoft will release the windows source-code for free

Where did I suggest H&P release OS3.9 source for free? Obviously that would be a good outcome but hardly likely. Which is why I proposed a bounty. And yes, as I said, I'm willing to make a contribution to such a bounty. How is this wanting something for free?

>It is not devil, not "ugly" how you called it. I do not understand your attitude and why you do not react on other comments. You said everything is missing and I asked you to name a few of what is missing. I still await the answer.

Has someone redrawn those atrocious icons by now then? As for what's missing, the answer is most of OS3.5/3.9.

AROS is not the devil, just not something that is of any use to me. And I would not normally do development of software that I do not even use. Surely most contributors to open source projects are the same.

>if aros devs prefer zune you are still free to introduce reaction yourself,

Fork AROS? Then we have 5 Amiga-like OSes instead of 4, hardly an improvement.

>As far as Birdie is concerned: I don't have a contact to its author. Do you?

No, he doesn't seem to be active any more. This is probably a case where a Cosmos-style patch (to Birdie, not layers.library) would be useful.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 08:56:37 AM by Minuous »
 

Offline Minuous

Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2014, 09:39:54 AM »
>there were some successful larger aros bounties (open sourcing poseidon usb stack) and two or three other bigger bounties (dopus magellan and odyssey), all organized by people whom you are arguing against, olaf as example. the bounties were successful because the people in question actually did something instead of bragging and demanding. and remember magellan bounty has not been met. the owners agreed to lesser amount. and now you are talking abut the bounty for whole operating system. it will not be another ten thousand dollar bounty im sure. if it was i might have been interested few years ago when there might have been enough people to support it. anyways if you want to risk money parked on some account for years, go for it and try, but judging by this thread alone there isnt much interest anymore.

I very much doubt they would want >$10000 at this point, considering they have left the Amiga market. I'm not "arguing against" anyone, simply having a discussion, much less "bragging and demanding". So explain what have I bragged about or demanded from anyone? In fact, you are the one demanding that I work on your pet project. At what point in this thread or anywhere else have I ever demanded anyone ever work on one of my programs? I welcome code contributions but I don't go around demanding that everyone else work on my programs. All I've said is that an AmigaOS clone should be like AmigaOS, I don't know why this would even be a controversial point, it's just common sense.

>takes much more time than just posting in forums, which is what people are primarly interested in so why really bother.

Yeah, right, that's all I do, go look on Aminet or my site then before making such stupid statements.

>why fork? you can just contribute the missing classes and mui and reaction programs will work fine side by side like they do on aos, or are you demanding to remove the feature of mui compatibility altogether losing this functionality, because you hate it?

It shouldn't be included in any AmigaOS replacement as it has never been a part of AmigaOS. If people want to download it they can, no one is stopping them.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 10:05:46 AM by Minuous »
 

Offline Minuous

Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2014, 06:35:31 PM »
Quote from: olsen;773283
There are three books which profoundly changed how I work. These are "Debugging the development process", "Writing solid code" and "Code complete".

I've read the 2nd and 3rd of these, and can confirm they are very good for high-level language programmers (maybe less relevant for assembly language coders such Cosmos). They are available at http://amigan.1emu.net/aw/
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 06:43:17 PM by Minuous »
 

Offline Minuous

Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2014, 07:04:12 AM »
Quote from: kolla;773583
I dont know any coders who don't at least use a revision control system.


I don't use one, it doesn't make much sense for solo projects...
 

Offline Minuous

Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2014, 11:28:46 AM »
I keep copies of each older release, and also a changelog of what was done for each new release. Plus, anything which is non-obvious as to its purpose (eg. a change to my emulator which is needed for compatibility with some obscure guest program) has a comment to that effect in the source. Those three measures have proven adequate for me. Plus, last time I checked, these revision control systems seem to require use of a makefile. YMMV; I'm not saying that revision control is useless for everyone, but if your coding is done in a disciplined way it's not necessary.
 

Offline Minuous

Re: Layers.library V45 on the aminet
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2014, 11:18:07 AM »
>I also was unsuccessful in extracting rtg.library from your split zip archive thingy. WinRAR couldn't put the two pieces back together again

It works (WinRAR 3.62), just rename up.z01.zip as up.z01 and then unzip up.zip.

layers.library is working fine now with Birdie on OS3.9+BB4 under WinUAE. Thanks ThoR for this fix.