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Author Topic: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?  (Read 14621 times)

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Offline magnetic

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Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2017, 02:38:04 AM »
The thread is a little silly to me. Nobody is going to come after anyone legally unless there is some sort of commercial distro even then i doubt it. My favorite thing on these type of amiga threads are the arm chair lawyers legal opinion. lol
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Offline Pat the Cat

Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2017, 02:49:16 AM »
Quote from: magnetic;818820
The thread is a little silly to me

Agreed. I think I've said more than enough. I guess it boils down to people being protective - perhaps overprotective.

YES, I'm guilty of that, just as much as the next Amigan.

I think Cloanto have seen this coming.

Quote
Sooner or later the situation will inevitably change (due to the  expiration or special exemption status of some copyrights, or because of  the quality and diffusion of compatible alternatives, or for other  factors), but until then we
https://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-122
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 03:05:28 AM by Pat the Cat »
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Offline EvilGuy

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Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2017, 02:59:44 AM »
Quote from: Pat the Cat;818818

But it wouldn't be violating the copyright of the C code.


You don't violate the copyright of the C code, you violate the author's rights.

Ok, this thread has done one thing - it's brought the nutters out of the wood-work who have no idea about copyright.
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2017, 03:06:59 AM »
Quote from: EvilGuy;818823
You don't violate the copyright of the C code, you violate the author's rights.

You don't unless the person suiing you can prove that your code - came from the C code.

Knowing is one thing. Proving in a court is very, very unlikely. If a dereviative product is not sold, merely distributed, there would be no basis for financial compensation.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 03:18:35 AM by eliyahu »
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Offline giZmo350

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Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2017, 03:11:16 AM »
Quote from: EvilGuy;818823
Ok, this thread has done one thing - it's brought the nutters out of the wood-work who have no idea about copyright.


EvilGuy? More like EvilGenius! :lol:

And Olsen is giddy with delight as he runs and squeals all the way back to the asylum! :lol:

Touche!
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Offline eliyahu

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Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2017, 03:14:06 AM »
Quote from: magnetic;818811
LMAO we are sooo scared. Its quite sad that the legacy of Amiga os is being held hostage by a Belgium lawyer.
it wasn't just hyperion which told folks not to link to the archive, by the way. hyperion is not the only claimant to the source copyright.

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« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 03:19:39 AM by eliyahu »
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Offline EvilGuy

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Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2017, 03:15:16 AM »
Quote from: Pat the Cat;818824
Well, I think you're a snotty nosed little tosser who couldn't find his dick without a map, a microscope, and some tweezers.


All good Pat, I had your momma helping me the other night, so I'm happy to call it even..


.. and at least I understand copyright law.
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2017, 03:16:01 AM »
Quote from: eliyahu;818826
it wasn't just hyperion which told folks not to link to the archive, by the way. hyperion is not the only claimant to the source copyright.

-- eliyahu

Oh, really? I see lots of references to license to distribute, I've seen no references anywhere saying Commodore's copyright to source was ever transferred outside of Commodore.

Tell you what. Before I do anything - look at the source even - I'm going to write, to Hyperion, Amiga Inc, Cloanto, etc, asking them specifically if they lay claim to the code, and if so, what the basis of that claim is, and what evidence they have to support such claim. With the rider that if I don't hear back from them in a sensible time frame, I will assume that they have no such claim.

Until then, I'm shutting up. Eliyahu, if you know anybody else, please PM me so I can ask them, officially.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 03:19:54 AM by Pat the Cat »
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Offline eliyahu

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Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2017, 03:17:08 AM »
Quote from: Pat the Cat;818828
Oh, really? I see lots of references to license to distribute, I've seen no references anywhere saying Commodore's copyright to source was even transferred.

i have no idea if it was or not; thankfully i'm not a lawyer. but the emails and PM i got to not allow links to the archive didn't come from hyperion, and i think i'll leave it at that.

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Offline eliyahu

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Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2017, 03:20:18 AM »
@thread

just a heads up that i've already received reports on a couple of posts in this thread. please keep the language appropriate and no personal attacks, please.

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Offline slaapliedje

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Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #54 on: January 03, 2017, 03:59:25 AM »
So wait, by Pat's logic, if you distribute someone's copyrighted source code, you are in infringement, but if you distribute the binaries (compiled or 'translated'), you are okay?  I mean the copyright is on the pre-compiled TEXT according to him.  

That would pretty much change everything on how software copyright works.  Hell if that logic works, people download compressed (translated into computer 1s and 0s) music and movies that should also not be considered copyright infringement, right?

Not a personal attack, just wondering because if there is a translation clause out there, you could actually argue the difference and maybe push for a more sane copyright on the binaries.  Afterall, binaries do become useless after so long, while source code could be tweaked and updated to work with newer ssystems.
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Offline magnetic

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Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #55 on: January 03, 2017, 04:27:26 AM »
Quote from: eliyahu;818829
i have no idea if it was or not; thankfully i'm not a lawyer. but the emails and PM i got to not allow links to the archive didn't come from hyperion, and i think i'll leave it at that.

-- eliyahu


I completely understand you protecting aorg from posting links, im in favor of that. But this whole legal threat thing in this community is a sad joke and whats even more sad are the fanboys that echo it.

ps im aware there are copyright holders for 3.1 and they are entitled to their rights im speaking more on the insanity of it all. In particular os4 being held hostage by a holding company in belgium. The BEST thing that could EVER happen to Amiga os would be open source
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Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #56 on: January 03, 2017, 11:20:28 AM »
Quote from: magnetic;818833
ps im aware there are copyright holders for 3.1 and they are entitled to their rights im speaking more on the insanity of it all. In particular os4 being held hostage by a holding company in belgium.
Actually, as far as Os 4 is concerned, the situation is quite clear to me. Hyperion paid for it, and had the rights to run a Os 4 development on top of Os 3.1, so it's their source and their product. So no doubts about it. And "held hostage" is not quite the right term - they own it, they sell it. Buy it - or don't.  

In the same sense, Windows is "held hostage" by Microsoft. But that's only fair. They produced it, they own it, and they can do with it whatever they like. If you don't need this product, don't get it. Unfortunately, the latter part is much harder to avoid than Os 4.

For Os 3.1, however, the situation is not so obvious. I've seen what Cloanto actually bought from the bankrupt estate of CBM (yes, really), and that are the ROM images (amongst others), but not the sources. So that doesn't give them rights on the source code, IMHO, despite Cloanto claiming the contrary. I don't thrust them either. All they have are just the compiled binary images, as distributed on ROM. As soon as they would stick to selling exactly that, it would be ok, but they don't.

I haven't seen anything like that for Hyperion, i.e. I do not know what exactly they got. The license to base 4.x development on 3.1 does IMHO not cover enough rights on 3.1 as such. So maybe the compromise settlement after the process with Amiga Inc. does give them that, but to be sure, I would need to read it, which I have not.

However, it gets even more delicate: What about components CBM actually never owned? For example, ARexx? This is copyright Bill Hawes, and as far as I understand, CBM never paid for it, they likely never accquired it. Hence, if somebody is willing to update ARexx, it would probably need a license from Bill, and neither Cloanto, nor Hyperion will likely be able to give you that, neither CBM would have ever been able to.

Worse, what about the components that were generated for Os 3.9? What about those? They went partially to H&P, and partially remained at the authors. Did the authors transfer copyright to H&P? Did Hyperion transfer copyright from H&P to them? Which part of the copyright could they even transfer?

Questions over questions. I don't have clear answers, but I haven't seen the contracts either. I know too little to judge, except that I'm very definitely clear that the source code that is floating around in the internet is certainly not "Open Source" by any means, and thus completely unusable for any type of development.

Quote from: magnetic;818833
The BEST thing that could EVER happen to Amiga os would be open source
Given the delicate situation, this is unlikely, and not even desirable.The Os requires a maintainer, not a bunch of hackers. Unfortunately, it is not exactly going to improve the situation by idling, as it currently happens.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #57 on: January 03, 2017, 12:03:30 PM »
Pff... the OS was made by a bunch of hackers and is currently maintained by a bunch of hackers, such as yourself.
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Offline cgutjahr

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Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #58 on: January 03, 2017, 01:55:03 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;818845

In the same sense, Windows is "held hostage" by Microsoft.

Did Microsoft blackmail the original rights owner into handing over the Windows rights for free?

Quote

I haven't seen anything like that for Hyperion, i.e. I do not know what exactly they got.

The settlement agreement - which details exactly what they got - is publicly available.

Quote

Worse, what about the components that were generated for Os 3.9? What about those? They went partially to H&P

None of these components "went" to H&P, the authors sold H&P a non-exclusive  license to distribute them with 3.9. These licenses automatically expired after 10 years, which means all the rights have gone back to the original authors years ago anyway.

The only parts of 3.9 H&P ever owned were the stuff they wrote inhouse: The new installer, a few prefs programs (IIRC) and documentation.

Quote

certainly not "Open Source"

Absolutely. But since (a) the code has already been floating around since the late nineties, and (b) nobody is going to do anything with it for obvious reasons, I don't see the need to argue about it. As long as it is "for the Amiga", people really don't care about proper licensing. Not too much of a surprise IMHO, given that most of us were socialised by crackers and the warez scene...
 

Offline Pentad

Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #59 from previous page: January 03, 2017, 02:01:48 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;818845
Given the delicate situation, this is unlikely, and not even desirable.The Os requires a maintainer, not a bunch of hackers. Unfortunately, it is not exactly going to improve the situation by idling, as it currently happens.


Thomas, I have to disagree with you here. :-) I think the best thing that could have happened to the Amiga is if the OS had been open sourced early on.  People could have forked it and then worked on whatever parts they wanted. Those changes then could be ported back into the main tree if deemed valuable.

I would even argue that had this occurred early on the Amiga might be in a better position today as there was far more interest in it years ago. Open sourcing the AmigaOS could have been an engine of change that sparked both software and hardware. There was a lot of interest in the late 90s and early 2000s when it was still considered viable.  The Amiga community was the most valuable asset the machine had.

However, open sourcing the code now is just too late. You are not going to draw anyone into the community now just because the OS is now open.  I can understand keeping your code locked up if you are doing development but just letting it stagnate for so long seems narcissistic. Sadly, it seems to be a recurring theme in the Amiga's history.

Just my opinion though...
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