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Author Topic: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?  (Read 16347 times)

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Offline smerf

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2013, 06:19:05 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;739275
smerf, you are in rare form today: wrong on absolutely every single count.

For one thing, as previously discussed, Amiga OS is not an offshoot of Unix; if they do share similarities, it's from Amiga OS being based on TriPOS, which spawned in the same pools of primordial mainframe ooze that Unix did. The notion that the processor (on either Unix systems or Amigas) only does things when the peripheral hardware is too busy is patently ridiculous because A. they have distinct and only partly overlapping sets of capabilities, and B. the entire point of the processor is to run software. "Time-sharing" is multitasking (often preemptive) and multiple mainframe OSes implemented it years before Unix even existed.

You have no idea what you're talking about...

Uh, OK, there Commodorejohn, the only thing I ask is please don't get into running computers with the united states satellite division, where we run Xenix, Unix, Windows, CPM, DOS and at NASA even used AmigaOS to recieve pictures from outer space.

And you are right sir, I have no idea what I am talking about, since we have been loading up hardware with buffered instructions since we did not have the memory or hardware when we first started out using computers, the first computer that we had had about 40 cards in it, with magnetic memory modules, we used a system called mini code (4 bit instructions) with a type of Unix to run the systems. We could run 4 different systems by time sharing with the unix type mincode to give instructions to the buffered hardware so that it would not slow down (remember hardware takes more time than electronic signals).

Oh btw I still have my original BCPL books from the start date of the Amiga, somewhere up in the attic.

In order to make brash statements, first you have to define Unix, since most of you are to young to remember what the original Unix was about, and even if you did you couldn't afford it, since my copy cost around $43,000 at that time (gov't purchased). Today we have switched over to a new language that is more of a control and easier language to program.

Tell me ever play with cobal, turbo pascal, pascal, or mini code.

Oh by the way I spent about 2 years programming the Amiga's for those NASA space shots, I did work for Commodore you know, but I was really better at sales. Not as much hard work as programming.

and btw, I never said that the Amiga was Unix, I said it was an off shoot of Unix, which means that it has multi tasking features, and the reason the Amiga is so good at multi tasking is because you can give the hardware sound and video chips buffered instructions to decrease the CPU from givning all the commands (remember cpu's can only initiate one command at a time) but by buffering the chips (or hardware) with several instructions, as the instructions are being used the CPU rests, until the hardware tells it I am done with your last instructions waiting for more.

OK
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 06:26:08 AM by smerf »
I have no idea what your talking about, so here is a doggy with a small pancake on his head.

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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2013, 07:11:03 AM »
Look, not to be rude, but all the job experience in the world does not keep you from being verifiably, factually wrong here. You're right that the Amiga does have a well-designed architecture that allows the CPU and chipset to work tightly in concert; that does not mean that (as you claim) the CPU does nothing when the chipset isn't overtaxed, because the chipset doesn't even come close to covering the full functionality of the CPU (nor is it intended to.) That would be absurd and a waste of a perfectly good CPU, for one. Even with absolutely no other threads running (which is basically never going to happen outside of empty, static loading screens,) the CPU still runs the Exec scheduler and responds to interrupts. You are also wrong in claiming that Unix was the only multitasking OS back in the day; there were multiple time-sharing systems that were preemptive. Finally, you are wrong about Amiga OS being a Unix offshoot; it is not, it shares no fundamental system architecture with Unix, and this will still be the case no matter how often you insist it's otherwise. Seriously; this is stuff you can look up.
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Offline ElPolloDiablTopic starter

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2013, 07:33:58 AM »
Why don't we have 24 hours where nobody mentions the word "unix"?

It's a bit disturbing when an Amiga discussion gets ruined by the mention of the word u... shhh.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2013, 07:36:44 AM »
It's a bit difficult to not draw comparisons/contrasts between the Amiga and Unixoid systems in a thread devoted to exactly that...
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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Offline Bif

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2013, 08:03:51 AM »
In the early 90s when I had to abandon Amiga I was always looking to find a replacement OS that was Amiga-like (I was using DOS, and it was painful). DOS felt nothing like Amiga. Mac felt nothing like Amiga. The windows 3.1/DOS schism felt nothing like Amiga.

My early dabblings with Unix/Minix/Linux/whatever did feel much more Amiga like in that they supported proper multi-tasking, but in particular the shell felt like a cohesive well thought out powerful thing that reminded me of Amiga's CLI. I was a big CLI user on Amiga and it always seemed pretty well though out.

The Unix/Linux thing didn't seem super practical way back then though so the first OS that did feel like a decent replacement for Amiga was OS/2. Then Windows 95 felt like more Amiga-like as well. However, somehow Linux still feels a bit more Amiga-like to me, just because the shell seems more comparable to Amiga CLI than the OS/2 / Windows command lines.
 

Offline AmigaBruno

Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2013, 08:58:25 AM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;739238
But there was UNIX for the Amiga, that was sold with some A3000s, but requires an MMU so wouldn't have worked on the original 68k machines.

Plus X Windows is terrible even today.

This is an amazing thread!

I recently bought an A1200 from someone who had studied and used UNIX on an A3000. He told me that UNIX wouldn't run on an A4000. Is this correct? If so, then why? Did the A3000 come with an MMU, but the A4000 didn't? I later exchanged a few SMS messages with him, but he just said he'd programmed in ARexx, then I couldn't get any more out of him.

Of course, Amicygnix as used on AmigaOS 4.1 is a type of X Windows.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2013, 09:11:32 AM »
Quote from: smerf;739280
and btw, I never said that the Amiga was Unix, I said it was an off shoot of Unix, which means that it has multi tasking features

As does modern versions of Windows, which is descended from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenVMS
 
The granddaddy of them all is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOPS-10. The follow up was called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOPS-20, which started as TENEX (ten extended) because DEC didn't want to add virtual memory to their hardware and after creating an add on they needed an OS to drive it. TENEX was developed for use in projects funded by DARPA and was used to build the Internet.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 09:36:19 AM by psxphill »
 

Offline AmigaBruno

Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2013, 09:32:45 AM »
Quote from: smerf;739270
Gentlemen!!

Amiga OS and Linux are both off shoots of Unix, no they aren't exactly the same, but underneath in the hardware they use the same principles, they give instructions to the hardware to do certain stuff while the processor only comes into use when the hardware is over run with instructions. You have to remember back in the old days Unix was the only OS that was multi tasking and it did that by instructing the hardware to handle functions like video and sound. Other systems that said that they were multi tasking actually were time sharing where the cpu gave out the instructions or commands and time shared between programs. This is what made windows so slow at first compared to the smoothness of the Amiga.
Don't know if I really explained that right, I am tired from working on a roof all day putting up a TV antenna, yep out with the new (cable) and in with the old ( Airwave) I came down to the point where I got sick and tired of paying for commercials and infomercials when I receive better movies and shows on antenna TV.

That sounds interesting! AmigaOS and Linux are both offshoots of UNIX. That's what I thought.

As for your TV viewing, I wonder what channels you can get with your new old setup? How about a listing? I recently found this video about accessing TV on demand services not usually accessible where you live using a Smart TV. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho5HQKr54Tg . This is about how to access BBC iPlayer and ITV Player in Germany, but the principle should be the same anywhere. The video does say the Smart TVs sold in North America may have hardware issues, but I have heard that at least one US satellite TV package uses the European broadcast standard DVB instead of digital NTSC. I also found a USB dongle on eBay called "TV Anywhere", which is described mainly as giving access to UK TV streaming services around the World, but if you look closely near the bottom it says it can also access TV from other countries http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CATCH-UP-TV-AND-MANY-MORE-FROM-ANYWHERE-IN-THE-WORLD-ITV-PLAYER-BBC-iPLAYER-/390617014404?pt=UK_Home_Garden_CD_DVDStorage_SM&hash=item5af296a084 . This is mainstream TV, not thousands of channels that not many people want to watch.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 09:36:25 AM by AmigaBruno »
 

Offline cha05e90

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2013, 09:35:30 AM »
Quote from: desiv;739261
The way that the GUI and the shell complement each other was something I liked about Linux.
You got your best use out of the system when you understood both and where each was valuable.

This perfectly describes AmigaOS. It is absolutly wrong regarding any *nix variant!

One of the most brain dead concepts is the separation (or read: non-integration) of user interfaces (GUI, command line) in those *nix stuff. In principle it's more or less Windows 3.1 style by hammering a more or less unintended GUI over a working, multitasking, multiuser command line operating system.
Man, I had fun by using  shell commands to completely bork the desktop environment of really, really expensive *nix systems, 'cos those dump X window stuff didn't even notice that I had done it it's back. Not that easy nowadays, but on the other hand they had to do a lot of magic and code to achieve a (semi-)coherence that is an inbuild feature of AmigaOS.

And just for the record: AmigaOS has no and never had any *nix roots. Thank god (or Jay, or Tim or whomever).
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Offline AmigaBruno

Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2013, 09:44:48 AM »
This is an amazing thread! I'm going to have to do some research into the other operating systems mentioned here, such as UNIX, DEC, and VAX. What hardware would I need to run any of them, though?
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2013, 10:22:32 AM »
Quote from: AmigaBruno;739292
This is an amazing thread! I'm going to have to do some research into the other operating systems mentioned here, such as UNIX, DEC, and VAX. What hardware would I need to run any of them, though?

Some of them can be emulated.
 
A lot of the hardware either doesn't exist anymore, or are in museums.
 
There are plenty of photo's online though.
 
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Offline gertsy

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2013, 11:28:30 AM »
Maybe earlier Linux deployments in the GUI/Shell sense. But not much more than that. The Amiga also had a sense of being revolutionary, leading edge. No such feeling on Linux.
 

Offline AmigaBruno

Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2013, 11:28:40 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;739294
Some of them can be emulated.
 
A lot of the hardware either doesn't exist anymore, or are in museums.
 
There are plenty of photo's online though.
 
http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/PDP-6

I think it's obvious that UNIX is my best bet. This could be AMIX, Free BSD, or Open BSD. I've got an A1200 which I'll fit an IDE CF adaptor and 4Gb CF card to in a few days time. Would I need a RAM upgrade as well? I think I could run Free BSD or Open BSD on my Toshiba Satellite C660D laptop, with an AMD E350 CPU, 2Gb RAM, and 320Gb hard drive which at this moment is divided equally between Ubuntu Linux 13.04 and Windows 7. This is because the installer didn't tell me which partition was which! I suppose I could just resize the Windows partition.

I hope someone on here can tell me the advantages of UNIX compared with Linux. I recently helped to tidy up someone's flat, which was too full of stuff, such as furniture, but also housed a huge collection of UNIX, Linux, Mac, and Windows books which has been kept, not thrown out. I even found two Amiga books there. Unfortunately, someone told me the tenant who owns this collection only accumulated it because "he thought it was cool". I can't help wondering if he was involved with UNIX in the early days. He had had a breakdown or a stroke and I hardly got a word out of him when I last saw him in December, which was before I found out about this collection. The only computer there was a PC with specs that looked several years old and a few old Linux distros installed. These distros were roughly the version numbers mentioned in the book titles, but I think the content of these books would still work in current distros. I couldn't boot it up. Sometimes the monitor said it couldn't display the screen mode.
 

Offline polyp2000

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2013, 12:37:40 PM »
Quote from: gertsy;739300
Maybe earlier Linux deployments in the GUI/Shell sense. But not much more than that. The Amiga also had a sense of being revolutionary, leading edge. No such feeling on Linux.


Seriously ? I cannot think of a single operating system that epitomized a revolution than Linux. Without it and the open source ecosystem that blossoms from its very roots , the internet, the mobile space, even the desktop space would be a very different place indeed. Companies like google - if they even existed at all would be very different to what we see today.

you need to read this book  
http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Rebel_Code.html?id=kIU1scm4w6QC

Im not trying to start an OS war here - but I cant stand by and read a comment like yours without responding.


As much as i love the Amiga - Im not so dumb as to make suggestions that Linux does not feel like a revolutionary OS. That really just shows that you've never taken the time to understand its roots or even use it for any great length of time. The amiga OS was great in its time , but its time is in the past.
I cannot comment on os 4.x - But by todays standards classic amiga OS does not cut the mustard against most modern operating systems. I chose to use Linux as my primary OS many many moons ago and my initial thoughts were that it reminded me of AmigaOS - things have changed since then - but Id rather not be hold to either Microsoft OR Apple - and that sentiment has not changed much since then. (I had leanings towards Mac when OSX hit the scene but when i realised they were taking a lot from the community and not giving back it didnt help matters)


N

Offline agami

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2013, 01:32:42 PM »
I have used Linux for server, desktop/notebook, and embedded systems since the late '90s and until this very day. Unfortunately AmigaOS never got the chance to develop to a point where it would be used in all these domains but if it did, I know it would not have caused the amount of frustration I have had and continue to have with Linux.

Don't get me wrong, when Linux works it works brilliantly, it's the getting it to do the thing you want that can be quite the challenge. Like just the other day I attempted to load ownCloud on Centos 6.3. You know how on AmigaOS when a piece of software informs you that some_specific.library is needed, you download it, copy it to LIBS and voila the software works, not so with Linux.

And Linux may have sparked a revolution, but I have to agree with gertsy, there is nothing revolutionary about Linux in its architecture, in fact all of the major OSs in the market today are evolutionary, some more so than others but they all just have too much '80s and '90s odour about them. I just wish AmigaOS got the same chance at continuous evolution over the past 20 years.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #44 from previous page: June 30, 2013, 03:23:45 PM »
Quote from: AmigaBruno;739288
That sounds interesting! AmigaOS and Linux are both offshoots of UNIX. That's what I thought.
Except for the part where it isn't, at all.

Quote from: AmigaBruno;739292
This is an amazing thread! I'm going to have to  do some research into the other operating systems mentioned here, such  as UNIX, DEC, and VAX. What hardware would I need to run any of them,  though?
Unix comes in a wide variety of vendor-specific flavors - you can of course get free clones (FreeBSD or Linux) that run on any PC, or you could dig up an SGI, Sun, or whatever Unix workstation from the '90s for fairly cheap. DEC wasn't an OS, it was a company; they made multiple lines of computers, and operating systems for them. VMS ran on their VAX hardware; you can sometimes nab a VAXStation for cheap if you're lucky, (or, as psxphill notes, you can run an emulator like SIMH,) and HP (who currently owns VMS) runs the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program, from which you can get a license to install it on whatever you get. It's interesting stuff.
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