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Offline Forcie

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« on: May 20, 2011, 08:44:28 AM »
@antonvaltaz

It needs the AROS kickstart. On the other hand, AmigaOS3 now boots on the AROS kickstart. :)
 

Offline Forcie

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2011, 10:18:40 AM »
Quote from: XDelusion;639277
Amiga apps and games will NEVER be compatible with AROS unless re-written and obviously only a small percent of those programs will ever get re-written. That being so, AROS (in regards to the retro Amiga experience), must and can only take place via emulation. Thus AROS's main highlight is the fact that it is a means to emulate Amiga within an Amiga like environment, free of the presence of Linux or Windows. That's my current attraction.

MorphOS on the other hand, can run MANY Amiga programs without emulation, and at speeds that far surpass emulation speeds even on high end AROS compatible hardware. This is an edge that AROS will not have until PC hardware begins to make giant strides in speed at an affordable (disposable) price. Though, for the time being, AROS does have the JIT edge, which MorphOS currently suffers without for it really needs it to be able to play that pile of software which can not be run natively under MorphOS. Of course JIT is being ported to PPC so time will change all...

I am sorry, but you are just wrong on so many levels.

First and foremost, ALL the solutions you mention have to emulate 68k software if not running on a Motorola 68000-based architecture! That means all of them except AROS-68k. MOS and OS4 do not run on 68k processors. AROS-68k however, runs Amiga software natively.

MorphOS and OS4 are both _emulating_ the 68k programs. The difference is that you do not notice the 68k emulators, called Petunia and Trance respectively. But to say that it is "without emulation" is just plain ignorant.
Now, AROS also has a "transparent emulator" project going on, called Emumiga. It is not done yet, but to say that it never will happen is wrong. When it is done, AROS will have exactly the same transparent emulation capabilities as OS4 and MOS, if not better.

These transparent emulators are only useful for system friendly software making AmigaOS API calls only. If the software uses the Amiga chipset, one has to use a more complete emulator in the form of UAE. Here AROS has the edge. OS4 and MOS both have to run an UAE emulator instance detached from the system, pretty much in the same way as when emulating real Amigas on Windows or Mac OS X. It sits in its own window, replicating the screen of the emulated Amiga, and does not interact with the host operating system.

AROS, on the other hand, has something called Janus-UAE, which allows all the Amiga chipset dependent software to be integrated into the system pretty much in the same way as with Petunia or Trance. That is, the HW banging software can use native AROS windows and screens, it can use AROS skins/decorations/gadgets on the 68k software, it can share the clipboard with AROS, screendrag etc. It is integrated in the same ways as modern Virtual Machine software uses "coherence" mode with the host operating system. It is a very cool solution, and maybe OS4 and MOS will get something like it in the future too.

So, I think you have to rethink your stance on "emulation", "compatible" and "NEVER". I am very happy that you are interested in the Natami project, though. :)
 

Offline Forcie

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2011, 11:04:52 AM »
Quote from: Piru;639300
Trance and Petunia are just JIT translators. Both MorphOS and OS4 can run 68k apps just fine without Petunia or Trance respectively.

Neither Petunia nor Trance do any kind of integration, they're just JIT engines.

Ok, so you are picky with terms. So, lets replace every mention of Petunia and Trance in my post with "the functionality in MOS/OS4 that takes 68k code and translates it to PPC instructions". There, now you do not have much left to reply to. It is still an emulator.

How "complete" it feels to the end user would be very much a subjective feeling depending on the individuals needs. I know for a fact that neither OS4 nor MOS feel complete enough for my preferences, since they cannot run the software I am used to running on my classics without obnoxious E-UAE instances. This works much better in AROS, where the emulator runs hidden in the background while still providing all functionality of a regular instance of E-UAE.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 11:20:27 AM by Forcie »
 

Offline Forcie

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2011, 10:44:45 AM »
Quote from: Franko;639922
So I'm not sure if what your saying is that AROS can't handle such basic things as all these old apps or are simply saying that they would be better re-written or re-compiled to run under AROS. In which case I'm back to doubting if AROS in it's 68K form would indeed be the best way forward...:confused:

Read up on this some more. UAE and Emumiga are both solutions for running 68k software on a foreign CPU. Like AROS running on x86 PC:s.

AROS-68k, on the other hand, runs 68k software natively, since it runs the software on the 68k CPU. Just in the same way all other Amiga software is run in for example OS3.1.

Little things that seem obvious to some can get lost in the discussions. :)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 10:47:24 AM by Forcie »
 

Offline Forcie

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2011, 02:40:55 PM »
Quote from: Franko;639945
Erm... how do I do that... I thought AROS 68k wasn't ready yet and only the developers had it... :confused:

AROS gets compiled during nights and new versions are released to the public for every supported platform every day on www.aros.org. Since 68k is a supported platform, this means that there is a new version for that every day, too.

Follow Wawas instructions if you want to try it on real hardware, although the planar gfx support is not very good yet, so it wont be as fun as emulating with the uaegfx chunky modes for now.
 

Offline Forcie

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2011, 05:14:36 PM »
Quote from: Franko;639981
Problem number 2: - Unfortunately I can't unarchive it on my Amiga as  all un-archiving programs I've just tried just throw up error messages  along the lines of "unrecognised" or "this is not a proper xyz  archive"... :(

(I tried UnARJ, UnRAR, UnTGZ etc... that I have on my Amiga but with no luck)... :(

The filename does indeed exceed the FFS 30 char limit, but this is not a problem for most classic users who are running on SFS or PFS3 partitions.

Like the filename suggests, this is a standard UNIX-style tarball archive compressed with the bzip2 algorithm. Tools for unpacking this on Amiga have been available since the bzip2 compression algorithm was created in the mid 90's. This is consistent with the standard GNU toolchain that most people developing for the Amiga platform are using nowadays.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 05:18:28 PM by Forcie »
 

Offline Forcie

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2011, 05:37:53 PM »
Quote from: Franko;639988
Still pretty dumb though (and just plain lazy) archiving things for a real Amiga and not bothering to make sure the filename is 30 chars or less so that it can be recognised on a real Amiga... ;)

It's like a DVD I once bought on eBAY with some 16,000 C64 games on it, they all had filenames of incredible lengths and I had to write my own program that could handle these long filenames and convert them to 30 chars or less as they were copied across to the Amigas HD... :)

Why do folk who do stuff on PC's that they hope to be used on a real Amiga forget the very simple fact that the Amiga can't handle these silly long filenames they give them... :rolleyes:

"Real Amigas" did not come with the lha unarchiver either. So technically uploading Amiga software to the net in this format is inconsiderate of people using "Real Amigas" :)

No, but seriously. This is still adapted to the logic of the more tech-savvy, developer kind of Amiga user. A guy who upgraded his filesystem 15 years ago and got rid of the filename limitation, and is familiar with common industry-standard UNIX tools. It is all bound to be a little cryptic for anyone not familiar with it. Eventually there will be a full, user-oriented distribution of AROS-68k with pre-installed third party software which is easier to install for the run-of-the-mill user.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 05:40:39 PM by Forcie »
 

Offline Forcie

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2011, 05:46:55 PM »
Quote from: Franko;639992
I hope so cos even as I type here my UnZip utils on my Amiga right beside me are having a hairy fit trying to recognise this thing... :crazy:

Here are the proper decompressors if you are interested in trying:
http://aminet.net/package/util/arc/AmiGNUtar
http://aminet.net/package/util/arc/bzip2_68k

bzip2 might require ixemul.library, I am not sure since I have had it installed on all my AmigaOS installations since the 90s. :)
 

Offline Forcie

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2011, 06:39:06 PM »
Quote from: Franko;640003
:cry:
AmiGNUTar (sounds like some sort of wee Russian fishwife) no luck there... :( (and it's "help" option has obviously been written by a PC junkie high on meths or Swahili, hard to tell really)... :crazy:

No, tar (=the Tape Archiver) was written sometime back in the 1960's for creating archives to record from mainframes onto big magnetic tape drives for backup purposes. The concept of a "PC" was not even invented back then.

But ok, I get it. Perhaps you should not dabble too much with this for now.
I or someone else might create an easier install solution for you later.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 06:41:59 PM by Forcie »