UltimatePPC and everything else

[Robert17]

@Kesa, I wasn't aware that NatAmi was cancelled, where did you hear/rea this?

Robert

[takemehomegrandma]

But having the PowerPC on the board brings a lot of peripherals to the "classic side" such as USB, SATA and network. You can choose to never use the PowerPC but just enjoy the expansions...

I'm not sure I understand; the SATA, USB and network is part of the PPC SoC, meaning you would have some kind of PPC OS (some kind of custom Linux?) transparently running on it to handle all this in the background, and then "relay" the data to the Amiga 68k side in some way? To me it sounds a bit expensive and over complicated way to get this kind of peripheral connectivity? You are using a FPGA, probably to "glue" it all togehter, but wouldn't it be better to simply "glue" some PCI-interface to the 68k and simply connect some standard controllers to this? Or perhaps even having the peripheral controllers inside the FPGA entirely?

As for the PPC part (as a "desktop" CPU, beyond being a "peripheral devices master controller") - I'm far from being the experts you are in these matters (I'm merely a user, so please forgive my ignorance), but from what I have read online, the FPU in e500/e500v2 is incompatible with the ones we have been using (in the e300, the e600, the  PPC4xx, the PPC7xx and the PPC970 for that matter), meaning it isn't really suitable for MorphOS/OS4/PowerUP/WarpUP and their existing software base?

And I'm sure a faster 68k would be preferred by most classic users, otherwise it would be a *down-grade* for most people...?

[nyteschayde]

To be honest i am reluctant to show enthusism with the NatAmi recently being cancelled.

The Natami was canceled?!!! Their website doesn't show anything about that. Is it true? Please say it isn't so...

[mousehouse]

I have some queries:
Are the 68K and PPC not directly connected? It seems the PPC is a quite seperate entity. This means that it can't access the Amiga's chipset, surely? How are you communicating between the two CPUs? If you're using dual-ported RAM, how will you keep cache coherency?
It seems to me that this is a 68040 card with a PPC slapped on the side, which is great and impressive, but how do you actually use it? Is it like putting an SBC in a normal Amiga (i.e. a completely seperate computer which happens to be in the same tower)?

Without meaning any disrespect to the developers, given the complexity of the project, I'll believe it when I see it, and there's no way I'd pre-order one.... but I wish you all the best with it.

The PowerPC and 68040 are not directly connected and both have their own memory... essentially the UltimatePPC is two boards if you want to look at it like that and different in architecture from the CyberstormPPC. Both CPU's have their own bus and are connected together through the FPGA where we map the embedded devices in the PowerPC chip to the 68040 side. Having both CPU's access the main Amiga's devices will introduce cache coherency issues just as is the case with the CyberstormPPC cards.

When running a Classic OS the PowerPC chip provides the add-on devices (SATA, USB, ...) and the CPU core could be halted, run Linux, you name it.

And as the PowerPC chip is so much faster at emulating an 68000 than any 68000 can be, there is no point in keeping the 68040 running when you're running a PowerPC OS (eg. Linux, etc.) on your classic Amiga. In this mode it would run in a similar fashion as the Cyberstorm cards (but faster) and just do any 68000 stuff using JIT.

We understand you're skeptical - it is a complex card. Which is why we only announced it after we made sure we had the most essential parts running on our prototypes. We will surely demo the card before you can order it...

[mousehouse]

I'm not sure I understand; the SATA, USB and network is part of the PPC SoC, meaning you would have some kind of PPC OS (some kind of custom Linux?) transparently running on it to handle all this in the background, and then "relay" the data to the Amiga 68k side in some way? To me it sounds a bit expensive and over complicated way to get this kind of peripheral connectivity? You are using a FPGA, probably to "glue" it all togehter, but wouldn't it be better to simply "glue" some PCI-interface to the 68k and simply connect some standard controllers to this? Or perhaps even having the peripheral controllers inside the FPGA entirely?

The embedded devices in the P1013 share the same package but can be used externally without running an OS on the PowerPC (e500v2) CPU core.

[Crumb]

@mousehouse

You should start making the most basic part (040+128MB ram) working. Then people will start to believe you.

Does the PPC part have access to Amiga memory? I mean chipram, amiga custom chips... if that's the case you could disable 040 and use a JIT as it will be much faster.

AROS-PPC may be a good OS for your PPC part.

Jason McMullan has said that if somebody gives him a Mac Mini he would be willing to add MorphOS compatibility to AROS-PPC.

IIRC WarpOS/PowerUp require to share some memory so you may need to emulate 040 to make them work.

[takemehomegrandma]

Jason McMullan has said that if somebody gives him a Mac Mini he would be willing to add MorphOS compatibility to AROS-PPC.

Oh. :lol:

BTW, please define "MorphOS compatibility"...?

[mousehouse]

@mousehouse

You should start making the most basic part (040+128MB ram) working. Then people will start to believe you.

Which is exactly what we're doing ;-)

[AJCopland]

To be honest i am reluctant to show enthusism with the NatAmi recently being cancelled. I was so enthusiastic about the NatAmi but now i'm gutted. I don't want another emotional rollercoaster ride. What kind of guarantees can they give this will be released?

Cancelled? Thomas is off working on it alone a bit more but he's been doing that every few months thoughout the project anyway. It's no more real but certainly not cancelled.

All the bitching and whining around it is just that the other project members were hoping to be able to contribute to the AHDL side of building up the (S)AGA side of things and they aren't.

None of that affects it development though, that's always been 100% Thomas driven and subject to whatever else is happening in his work/love/personal/hobby/etc life.

When you say cancelled there's still 7 working developer boards with 68060s, some of them clocked to within an inch of 100Mhz, that people are using to write test cases and PCI/usb/network drivers. That's far from cancelled, it's just a huge job and no-one has a clue when it will become commercially available.

Andy

[Forcie]

No, Natami is not canceled. Claudio thought it would be OK to give a small update to explain why progress updates are slow and what is currently happening with the project. Judging by the reactions and the public panicking, I can now conclude that it would have been better to have shut up instead.

[psxphill]

And as the PowerPC chip is so much faster at emulating an 68000 than any 68000 can be, there is no point in keeping the 68040 running when you're running a PowerPC OS (eg. Linux, etc.) on your classic Amiga. In this mode it would run in a similar fashion as the Cyberstorm cards (but faster) and just do any 68000 stuff using JIT.

What is the point of the 040 then? Why not include a JIT in rom?
 
Also an A2000 CPU slot version would make me very happy.

[KimmoK]

...chip_maker_via_outs_49_dollar_raspberry_pi_alike...

Im amazed that no one has made similar simple boards around PPC yet...

+ we would not need to recompile whole codebase with the PPC on board

[AAACHIPSET]

NO A1200 VERSION ? thats  a big  mistake  ....
if they want to make  money  out of this  venture they MUST  make a  a1200
version  ..
my opinion  ..

[smf]

Why limit the 68K side to only 128M ram? memory is cheap nowdays

[Kesa]

My mistake. The NatAmi is not cancelled. Poor choice of words.

I thought it was on the verge of being released like the x1000 and the FPGA Arcade and i didn't realise how far away it really is to being released.

[Forcie]

My mistake. The NatAmi is not cancelled. Poor choice of words.

I thought it was on the verge of being released like the x1000 and the FPGA Arcade and i didn't realise how far away it really is to being released.

(Sorry for the OT discussion)

There are still a lot of things to do before a solid release candidate. Basic things like a full DMA arbiter, a finished PCI subsystem, a bug-free CF interface, better compatibility with peripherals, bug-free AGA, monitor files for the SAGA screenmodes etc.
There will also be a new mainboard revision with some stability fixes.

These are the things that are taking time, and preventing public sales atm. Not "feature creep" or fancy stuff, but just down to earth stability and compatibility-related things that decides if the system is ready for everyday usage. Which do take time when working on a hobby basis.
Thomas has always been a no-bull**** guy, and no matter what pipe-dreams people have amused themselves with on forums, his focus has been none other than getting a basic and stable system up with a basic feature set.