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Offline unchartedTopic starter

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How to move AROS forward
« on: July 24, 2008, 09:59:26 PM »
I'm not going to beat about the bush here, as much as I appreciate the work that has gone into AROS, and admire the dedication of those behind it,  AROS has become stagnant and is frankly almost as useless as it was 5 or 6 years ago.  Sure there has been progress, but that progress has been directionless and of no benefit for most of the Amiga community.

I'm not posting here to beat on the AROS developers.  I'm here to be constructive and put forward a proposal of how things could be resolved.  However, the first obstacle in the way of anything happening is to get the core AROS guys to acknowledge that there is a problem, and that THEY need to do something about it.  That is why I have to be so blunt in the post about the dire state things are in.  AROS is currently stuck between a rock and a hard place.  The rock is the lack of binary compatibility and the hard place is the restrictions imposed by source compatibility.  Hiding behind the APL just isn't going to cut it anymore.

My proposal is simple: Fork the AROS project into 2 distinct projects, each with a different technical focus and target audience.  For the purposes for distinction, I'll refer to them as 'Classic' and 'Future' here.  This is by no means my suggestion for naming.

Let's start with Classic.  The Classic project's main aim would be 3.1 binary compatibility.  The primary target platform would be *UAE, with real physical 68k machines the secondary target.  Strip out anything that isn't needed to run in UAE - drivers etc.  There are plenty of improvements that Classic could provide over OS3.1.  It could be then used as a base for distribution builders such as AmigaSYS, AmiKit and ClassicWB to add value to.

With the Classic project handling the compatibility side of things, the Future project can concentrate on making something a bit more modern.  No more skirting around Memory protection with small bits here and there.  Full MP is now possible.  All those 1980's restrictions are lifted, and the developers can concentrate on making something Amiga-like rather than Amiga compatible.  Compatibilty might be added later through a sandbox technique utilising Classic as a hosted OS or even simply using classic under E-UAE, which seems to be the direction the core AROS team have favoured before.

Freeing Future should hopefully spark a bit more interest from outside the community.  It appeared to me that one of the reasons certain Devs have left the project is that the Amiga restrictions have prevented them from building the OS they wanted.

Before going into a big more detail, I just want to be honest here.  In this scheme of things, I favour Classic over Future.  It would fulfil my personal Amiga needs.  Also, while I'd sell an elderly relative to get my hands on a modern Amiga-like system, I don't have faith that it would happen.  All new OSes, especially those of an OSS variety always seem to end up being just another unix-a-like.  This has even happened to OS4 in certain places (thankfully outside the core system).

Back to Classic, I would propose taking a similar approach to the MOS team in getting the project going.  There really needs to be momentum from the start.  Start off as simply a bunch of replacement files that goes on top of an OS3.1 install and keep building them up until you have replaced everything.  Make sure that this can be done easily and painlessly (see AIAB) and you're sorted.  People want to use stuff now, not when it's done.  Providing a fully function system from the start is key here.  Really, it's how AROS should have been done from the start.

I guess that about covers it.  Although it's great that MOS and AOS are still progressing, the whole community/market/whatever-you-wanna-call-it is far too fragile for anything other than an open source operating system at the heart of it.  We really need AROS to do well.

Sorry for the extra-long post.
 

Offline unchartedTopic starter

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Re: How to move AROS forward
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2008, 11:19:41 PM »
@Lemmink

AROS is open source, that is what males it different

@Matt_H
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Matt_H wrote:
With the current lack of manpower, formally forking AROS will just create 2 stagnant projects.


As I mentioned, my personal preference would be to concentrate solely on Classic.  It makes the most sense.  Amiga is predominately a retro-hobby these days.  Targeting a VM as opposed to real hardware would solve many nightmares.  UAE is a pretty decent bit of software ;-)

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Besides, AfAOS sort of accomplishes what your proposed Classic fork would do anyway.


No it doesn't. AfAOS replaces a couple of bits and pieces, not the whole system.  I mean absolutely no disrespect to Bernd and his hard work here, but it's also a bit of a bodge.  A full enhanced 68k port would be much better.

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I don't follow AROS very closely, so I don't know if there are any roadblocks to memory protection. The problem with implementing it on the other Amiga OSes has always been that everything would break. Given that there probably isn't any useful AROS software whose source code has been lost, I say, break it, then fix.


Which is a mammoth task.  Everything would break.  Whether or not you have the source doesn't matter all that much.  The main thing is that currently the Devs won't break it because source compatibility is still core to the 'vision'.

And if they did break it what would happen to AfAOS?  You can't have it both ways without a split.

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Finish up that UAE integration to open up the Amiga's back catalogue, and there you go: a usable Amiga operating system on standard hardware.


As far as I can see UAE integration is a fluffy after-thought that has been touted to stop people complaining about the lack of Amiga software.  Even if it were to happen you'd still need Classic to run any software on it.  It would be pretty rubbish if an open source OS required a commercial OS to run the majority of it's software.

Going back to classic again, with a minimal host OS (KXLight / XAmiga) and UAE you could have a usable Amiga Operating system on standard, or any other hardware you wanted.
 

Offline unchartedTopic starter

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Re: How to move AROS forward
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2008, 11:30:29 PM »
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yakumo9275 wrote:
Can I be blunt too?


Of course you can.

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Are you on the aros developers mailing list?


Not anymore.

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Have you committed code to the svn repository?


If I think a project's overall direction is flawed, am I going to waste time submitting code that won't change that?  Would that really be a good use of my time?  Or are you suggesting that I do the whole lot myself?

I fail to see what that really has to do with it.  I really wish that people would stop hiding behind open source as if it is some sort of licence to absolve their projects of any criticism.  If this didn't happen in the first place I wouldn't have to be so blunt in my original post.

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What can you do to help move it forward?


Proposing a sensible path forward (see above - you did actually read it all before going onto the defensive didn't you?)


 

Offline unchartedTopic starter

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Re: How to move AROS forward
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2008, 10:37:44 PM »
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bloodline wrote:

:-? Quark isn't AmigaOS, it's modern microkenel. It's also proprietory, if we wanted to move the Amiga platform forward I would prefer an opensource solution. L4 is a cool system, but if you really want a MicroKernel, then I would probably choose something like Darwin, which has more real world useage and is being activly developed by comercial interests.


Darwin is not a kernal it is the OS (and XNU is not a strict microkernel)

Sorry, I don't often get the chance to be pedantic these days, have to grab every opportunity ;-)

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What is the problem with using the Linux Kernel? It's far better supported than L4, I think it was Staf who proposed a minimal Linux with AROS-Hosted on top. You've never know Linux was there and you get all of Linux's Driver support... nice idea really.


Why not go the whole hog and host UAE with 68k AROS on Linux and get full compatibility?  That's what I've been trying to propose.
 

Offline unchartedTopic starter

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Re: How to move AROS forward
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2008, 10:47:53 PM »
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bloodline wrote:

This is being done... check out AFA by Bernd


This is not what AFA is doing.  AfA only replaces a couple of libs in quite an awkward way.  It is not some kind of systematic 68k port.
 

Offline unchartedTopic starter

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Re: maybe this can interest some of you...
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2008, 12:55:43 PM »
I've been away all week, so I was really excited when I saw this news item:

VmwAROS to support 68K applications

I skipped the description and went straight to the good stuff on the video page.  It was interesting, but not what it said on the tin.  A start, nevertheless.

Remembering this thread, my favourite part of the video page is...

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Obviously, this is not the "UAE integration" many AROS users are aiming to, since it needs the original Amiga ROM and system files to work


Even if Rich had of completed the UAE bounty, it still would have needed AmigaOS system files and Kickstart Images.  The first part of the Kickstart bounty is due tomorrow.  It will be interesting to see if that has got anywhere.

When will you guys actually realise that a 68k port of AROS isn't some guy {bleep}ing about what he wants, but an actual requirement?  It's not a good thing for an open source OS to require a closed source OS to be able to run 95%+ of the software library. :roll:  Even super-duper-mega-Linux-AROS is going to need 68k port to be able to run legacy stuff (which lets face it is what the majority of the people that are going to take any notice of an Amiga-like are going to want).

I got such a kicking from the AROS community for this thread, but at every opportunity I've been proven right.  The 'split' that everyone was pissing their pants about has happened anyway, and time and time again it has been shown that a 68k port is vital.
 

Offline unchartedTopic starter

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Re: maybe this can interest some of you...
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2008, 02:00:47 PM »
Nice flamebait A1260.