Web Browsers

[Trev]

iCab appears to be closed-source. I didn't see anything mentioning source code on the iCab site.

[Sig999]

As far as classic Amigas go - Web browsing will be extemely limited no matter what you do. Lets face it - you'll need either an AGA machine, or a graphics card just to look at a page with any kind of graphics. You'll need acceleration to use the web for anything short of an experience akin to pulling hangnails.

Then there's speed - I remember trying to use Netscape in the 90's with a 386, and later a 486.. and the experience was anything but zippy.  Netscape itself didn't get that much better over time either - it became bloatware in the extreme.

Netscape/Mozilla to Linux was an advent I actually watched and followed - again, on computers of the time made me think that browsing on Linux was going to be a pie in the sky too..  It wasn't so much Opera, Konquerer, Mozilla, etc got better (though they did) - it's more the machines got faster.

Something that isn't going to happen with classic Amigas right now.

For giggles load up UAE and Ibrowse if you have it - and go through various settings in an attempt to view this website... you'll see what I mean.

Which brings us to browser choices.

Unless I can be shown otherwise - Amizilla is a dead dead dead project...  I remember reading up with excitement when it was suggested - I remember getting tinglies when I saw it had it's own website.. it even had it's own Eric Schwartz mascot (which is like a AmiCommunity stamp of approval).  The last news I can find is August 2006 - and nothing I can download, test, look at.  Even if I did - I'd be using what, something ported from 2003 source? Hardly 'up an date' browser - fails on all fronts really...

AWeb on the other hand had a software update January 2008.
Browsing their site (which I might add is easier than the hodge-podge of websearching on Amizilla) I see how they want a 'classic' browser experience AND a modern one... Seems they realize the realities and are trying to address them - the project still has activity, it has something I can download and USE...  It's not as ambitious and sexy as porting mozilla, but I've seen a million and one sexi sounding open source projects with an empty CVS too.

If I were more proficient in system and network programming - I certainly know where my time and effort (were I looking to get into a browser project) would go... As it is, reading this thread and looking over the options - I know where my support will go.

I'm not trying to yank anyones chain - I'm just trying to look at it realistically.

[SuperTurbo]

huh? but this site looks pretty good in Ibrowse on a real amiga. It's just the lack of CSS support that annoys me, if there were CSS support I think most sites would work nicely in Ibrowse.... I don't think javascript support is as important as some kind of CSS support...

[Sig999]

SuperTurbo wrote:
huh? but this site looks pretty good in Ibrowse on a real amiga. It's just the lack of CSS support that annoys me, if there were CSS support I think most sites would work nicely in Ibrowse.... I don't think javascript support is as important as some kind of CSS support...

Now tell us the spec of the Amiga and compare to what I wrote above and see if what I've said is true.

I know it looks ok with either an AGA machine or a machine running a graphics card (and OK being the operative word here)- I've done it with Ibrowse and Amithlon several years ago.

BUT, if you start going down the spec from there you'll find things getting slower, nastier, and more cludgy. If you go all the way down to an unaccelerated A2000/500 you start to find things unusable (in the sense of how the web operates today).

Remember too - this is what I'd consider a BASIC website by todays standards.

The web has moved on - it's capabilities have expanded to take advantage of todays technology.

[SuperTurbo]

well, most sites today still consists mostly of pictures and text, and probably will for some time to come. Of course if you want to see flash animations/applications or web-tv on an ordinary amiga then you can forget it (with some exceptions).

But also consider this; Javascript is such an inadequate standard that web-developers have to take precations when using it, because Javascript is supported differently in dfferent web-browsers Javascript is not what I would call a relible standard (such as xhtml). Of course CSS have this problems as well, but is generally better supported by most web-browsers. Also, considering the high bandwith costs of web-tv and the fact that Flash is not a standard component in any web browser and is also copywrighted by adobe, makes ordinary text and graphics plus HTML the dominating web standard for some time to come. So I guess the web won't evolve as quickly as some people want it to.

[Jose]

CSS will be present in next version of IBrowse and it's already being coded for sometime now, just slowly.

I think HAM8 support for classic Amigas would be a great thing for browsing, too late of course, but there's still many classic machines at use even if some just as a hobby, that it would probably make a diference a convince more people to register.

[SuperTurbo]

Ham8 is so slooooow and has some graphical bugs, but it still would look nice I think

[Seiya]

maybe we have to wait AWeb with a complete support to CSS, javascript and a decent Flash player plugin..

[Sig999]

SuperTurbo wrote:
well, most sites today still consists mostly of pictures and text, and probably will for some time to come. Of course if you want to see flash animations/applications or web-tv on an ordinary amiga then you can forget it (with some exceptions).

But also consider this; Javascript is such an inadequate standard that web-developers have to take precations when using it, because Javascript is supported differently in dfferent web-browsers Javascript is not what I would call a relible standard (such as xhtml). Of course CSS have this problems as well, but is generally better supported by most web-browsers. Also, considering the high bandwith costs of web-tv and the fact that Flash is not a standard component in any web browser and is also copywrighted by adobe, makes ordinary text and graphics plus HTML the dominating web standard for some time to come. So I guess the web won't evolve as quickly as some people want it to.

You didn't answer my question.

The spec of the machine you're browsing with. And would it be a spec you'd consider typical of most Amiga users today - in affordability and accessability?

As for the standards on the web - I'd offer that the standards are (and have been) set by the people using it. Modern browsers should support the modern web.  High speed internet nowadays is pretty cheap - for me it's been affordable since 2000 (when I didn't make much at all) and nowadays it's on par with what I used to pay for dial up in the 90's.

A modern browser should be able to view the majority of a modern web - and my point being that as the Amiga falls further and further behind it's less feasable for people to try and make a modern browser that the hardware won't support in a handfull of years... sad state of reality. I can't fault folks for stopping development.  For the handful of folks that will have or will be able to upgrade to a point where their machines can feasibly do this - it's a good idea to throw support behind the very few projects that is still in existance....

In this thread we have people saying that they'd like a browser for a 500...... I'm here to serve the coffee - you got it:  Alynx.

I can TECHNICALLY browse the web on a C64... but is that what you'd call 'web browsing' by todays standards?  In 95/96 I got a ppp account, amitcp, and Amosaic, and with a graphics card started pulling up webpages with graphics - this astonished some PC users because it was doing it better and faster than their 386's.... nowadays this simply isn't the case.

Whatever Amiga hardware and OS come in the future - they should include some form of modern browsing if possible, if they're to be taken seriously by todays computing standards.

[Sig999]

Jose wrote:
CSS will be present in next version of IBrowse and it's already being coded for sometime now, just slowly.

I think HAM8 support for classic Amigas would be a great thing for browsing, too late of course, but there's still many classic machines at use even if some just as a hobby, that it would probably make a diference a convince more people to register.

Good to see Ibrowse hasn't gone the way of the dodo - it's been my favorite Amiga browser since the Amosaic days.

If they do this, I'd buy another copy (my 3rd).

For HAM, I was thinking the same thing when trying to wrap my head around how the Ami could support the web without throwing major dollars into the machine. But yeah - theres the speed issue, and also the issue of whether it's viable for someone making a commercial browser to spend time developing that, or spending that same time bringing their features up to as close as they can to todays specs.

I really hope more people who are able support Aweb - it's pretty much one of the last viable options for folks to rally behind.