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Offline DavidF215

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« on: January 21, 2005, 09:26:16 PM »
If you want OS4 on x86, then I would suggest to recruit like minded persons and create a company. Apply for a license agreement for the port (if Amiga, Inc would allow it) then port the code. Once the OS is ported, sale an AMD PC with the OS installed and configured. If you don't think such a business idea would succeed, then why should Amiga Inc, Hyperion, or any other company try porting to x86? If ported, use AMD 64bit only; leave 32bit behind. But it is still a lot of coding, man hours, and money to do it right and in a reasonable time frame.

OS4 on a G5 (which is 64bit, btw) would scream past x86, in GUI performance and most video applications. Of course I'm assuming that OS4 or OS5 will be ported to the G5 in the future. AmigaOS was designed for a low MHz 68000 processor. If the design is kept tight, then think of what it could do on a 64bit processor like the G5.

Also, wait till the next generation of PowerPC chips begin to have more of the Power4 and Power5 technologies. I'm putting my money on IBM's chips against both AMD and Intel because IBM has high end system technology, and they are beginning to integrate their high end technology into their PowerPC chips (staring with the G5). AMD really gained an advantage over Intel when they began integrating Alpha processor technology into their chips. But I still pick IBM chips over even the Alpha chips. Although a comparison of AmigaOS on PowerPC and Alpha chips would be interesting.

If you want x86 OS, try the AROS project or   Haiku project.
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Offline DavidF215

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2005, 09:34:20 PM »
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leirbag28 wrote:
@aardvark
@DavidF215

Lets get together and form and Amiga based company shall we? :-D


Hey, don't tempt me.  :-)  I have a few ideas that are viable. Just need: (1) a salesman who can sell anything to anybody, (2) a biz manager that can raise funds easily, (3) a good programmer or two. I can manage the rest.

I believe I've posted this before on an Amiga forum, but for Amiga to re-emerge, I think that it needs to be sold as a solution package. For example, IBM sold OS/2 as a business solution; and often, IBM would provide ongoing maintenance on the System. IBM provided both the product and a related service for their product. The Amiga can be sold in a similar manner. Give me a production line of A1200 desktops (with a 68020/030 or G3/G4 processor), and I could still market it. About a year before Commodore went bankrupt, I had signed up to be an Amiga distributor. I was working on some of my business ideas when the news of Commodore troubles began to escalate; and when Commodore went bust, I was not happy.

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Offline DavidF215

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2005, 08:57:00 PM »
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mikeymike wrote:
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DavidF215 wrote:
Hey, don't tempt me.  :-)  I have a few ideas that are viable. Just need: (1) a salesman who can sell anything to anybody, (2) a biz manager that can raise funds easily, (3) a good programmer or two. I can manage the rest.


"or two"?  In which decade were you thinking about releasing the x86 port?


I'm not talking about the port. If you would have read my previous post, you would know that I think an x86 port does not make business sense.
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Offline DavidF215

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2005, 09:09:25 PM »
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leirbag28 wrote:
@DavidF215

David, I think that would work, I have a friend who sells Video Toasters for their solutions.and there definitely is still a market for A1200. Just dont sell them as PC replacements but as dedicated machines for a certain task.................as a Character generator for instance.or as you very well said.

Yes. Exactly. The VT is a great example of my idea for Amiga. And, btw, we need something to replace the VT for A1.
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Offline DavidF215

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2005, 03:47:17 PM »
@bloodline

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Firewire and decent software... infact WindowsXP comes with basic Movie making/edting software... Which I can use when I connect my mates camcorder via the firewire to my PC...

I use XP and Movie Maker for editing too now. AmigaOS4 needs native Firewire support and DV software so I can have a good reason to buy an AmigaOne.
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Offline DavidF215

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2005, 10:39:07 PM »
@bloodline

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Ok, I'm missing something... Why do you think the Amiga is comercialy viable?

I've already mentioned some viabilities in a previous reply (page 7 or 8, I think).

@leirbag28

I agree. It's a "hobby" OS due to the lack up updates. Which leads me to ask: Why didn't Amiga, Inc update the A1200/A4000 mobo with USB/Firewall/etc and update AmigaOS with WarpOS/PPC enhancements. Get the entire platform updated and machines in production, then switch to full PPC in a later version of OS4? I'm guessing the way they did it was thought to be best.

So much potential, so little resources
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Offline DavidF215

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2005, 05:49:08 PM »
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terminator wrote:
(Linux is an exception, it isn't a commercial product, nor does it really have any traction outside of a few specialized zones.  It costs nothing but your time to install, so it's no big loss if you don't use it.)

Say what? Then why is Microsoft so concerned about it?
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Offline DavidF215

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2005, 07:54:09 PM »
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1) the Apple Mac and MacOS (in it's various problems) have been around and continue to live in the face of overwhelming  Windows competition... Mac games most of the times come out later than windows, but still sell profitably.


You know, I went into CompUSA one time to check on MacOS game software. They had all the games I would want, and they didn't have all of the Mac games. This arguement about no games or no software doesn't really float very well. How many Office applications does one need for biz apps to type a document and create a spreadsheet; an office suite along with Solitaire is adequate for the majority of Corporate America, and I know because I've provided tech support in Corporate America for several years. Most don't even know how to use MS-Office to its potential, and the majority only need a dumb terminal with downloaded apps and a network drive to save their work (but this is another thread all together).

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2) The original Amiga 1000 sold a ton of machines before the   "low cost" version came out (i.e. the A500) and was positioned very well as a business and creative home solution and it was priced well above the Apple's and IBMs of the time. It wasn't until Atari with the ST came out and started UNDERCUTTING them that they released the A500..

Yeah, I do recall that an A2000/A2500 was about $2000 when it first came out, and the A4000 was a bit more when it came out, and it along with the Video Toaster, helped to propel the platform until its current barely surviving state. So someone make a modern Video Toaster equivalent for AmigaOne (and compatibles) so when AmigaOS finally works on a G5, I'll have a good machine for video editting.
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3) Apple must think there is a market still there on the low end too, to release a "new" low end machine..

So does Dell if they sale a low grade PC for $399 (after rebates, of course). So an A1200 would still sell well with an 040 or 060 processor. :)
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4) Why did people buy Amiga software in the first place over the other machines out there? It probably wasn't the revolutionary market. You can have the best hardware in the world and it won't sell without software behind it..  The simple fact is that it sold because of what the software let the machine do. Small time developers who weren't writing for the platforms of the day were gravitating towards it.. This could happen again, if the OS can still generate some unique software.

It was simple, had good software (even though there wasn't a lot of software for the Amiga--same "not a lot of software" argument as often applied to MacOS), had a target markets (such as art and entertainment), it had true multitasking, lots of simultaneous colors on display, and some other advantages which Amiga owners know about.
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5)Did you ever buy Amiga software in anywhere but a mail order or a place that sold software for other machines? Probably not.. There is a reason for this..

I bought my A1200 from a catalog because it was cheaper than going to the store to buy it. I did buy the software from my local Amiga dealer in Springfield, MO at the time. Then I went down to my hometown of Corpus Christi and spoke with the Amiga dealer there, who told me I got ripped off; I was not happy then.
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I think people would look for an alternative platform that's  different from what they use at work, if the software was unique enough in a solution..

My above comment about Corporate America is a good reply for this, too. Entire departments could still use an A1200/040 (or even Pentium3) for their work machine. I'd pick the A1200 because it boots faster than a P3 with Windows on it. Give them an A1200, a mouse, and an LCD monitor, and they have a computer workstation including keyboard. Would sure beat those dump door stop CPU tower hogs. I would have bought A1200's when I was IT manager at a company in Fort Worth had they still been manufactured at the time.

Actualy 3rd world countries could still use the A1200 computer. An A1200 with an 030 would still be cheap to manufacture for less than $200-$300, wouldn't it?

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Also I think if AmigaOS ran on standard hardware, people might see it as a good alternative (provided the software support was there, which could happen over time). While people don't wanna change their hardware (that's why they may not be an A1) they are more likely to change their software if it works better..

Better software was one of the good points about Amiga. It's one of the reasons I bought an A1200.
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Offline DavidF215

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2005, 10:44:04 PM »
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transami wrote:
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There is too much talk of hardware... it seems like Amiga users have never realised that hardware is now a commodity... it's irrelavant to the equation of a computer platform, you just buy the cheapest that does the job.

What is important is software... the REASON why you buy the hardawre in the first place. And 10-15 year old apps, regardless of how good they are have nothing to do with people buying software.


That is DEAD ON, bloodline.


Righto. It's all in the Reason (or solution). How can it solve a problem I have or do something better?

So, the next question is, what does A1 do better or how does it solve a problem?
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Offline DavidF215

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2005, 10:58:21 PM »
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bloodline wrote:
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DavidF215 wrote:
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terminator wrote:
(Linux is an exception, it isn't a commercial product, nor does it really have any traction outside of a few specialized zones.  It costs nothing but your time to install, so it's no big loss if you don't use it.)

Say what? Then why is Microsoft so concerned about it?


Because Linux is free and Windows is not.

I wouldn't call Linux exactly free. It can be bought in many computer stores like Best Buy and CompUSA. And often times next to Windows XP. So, I don't consider "it's free" as a major reason why Microsoft is afraid of it; I would agree that it is a (one) reason, but I don't think that is the primary reason why they are now compaigning against it.

If it is because Linux is free, then if AmigaOS4 was free, then it too should (at some point) become a threat to Microsoft. And saying that x86 hardware is cheaper is not a good argument because as AmigaOS4 became more popular, then more demand for PPC solutions would drive the prices of PPC hardware down; thus, PPC hardware would eventually become similarly priced to x86 hardware. And if Pegasos II's PPC solution takes hold in the "free" Linux market, then because Linux is "free" PPC prices may drop anyways, so AmigaOS may benefit from it.

*Edit-add*

As a thought, Hyperion may ought to consider providing AmigaOS for free. They can get financing through various other means including requiring OEM's to pay a small $10 license fee for each AmigaOS4 license installed on the computer; they can also charge a small upgrade fee like Microsoft and Apple do.
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Offline DavidF215

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2005, 05:29:20 AM »
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DonnyEMU wrote:
I am only replying to this because I wrote the original material he was replying to, so I don't want my points misunderstood..

Right now with under $1000 and adobe premiere you can do broadcast quality digital video and some could argue you could even do it on that $399 dell.. If that's possible it would be possible to do it all in software on an AmigaOne without having toaster hardware.. You might check out VHI Studio from www.iospirit.de

I can do basic video editing on an AMD 1900+ with WinXP SP2 and Movie Maker 2. Nothing glamerous, of course, and generating 70 min of VCD/DVD data takes about 2 hours--I just start it and walk away.
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So does Dell if they sale a low grade PC for $399 (after rebates, of course). So an A1200 would still sell well with an 040 or 060 processor. :)


I am sorry, I just don't believe this is the case, even if you could run that CPU at that price, you are comparing CPU horsepower of a model T to a jet engine.. There are many reasons with specs that people won't continue to buy something with a 68k cpu.. (unless it becomes a tv game joystick). You really haven't spent enough time on PC hardware to make that conjecture stick.. Even, if you run AmigaOS thru UAE it would be many times faster on that low end PC..

What I meant was that basic computer tasks could still be done on an 040 or 060 processor. Tasks such as word processing, spreadsheets, small to medium sized databases, web browsing, some game play, etc.
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Actually if you look at the Amazing Computing yearly product guide, you would find more products (literally thousands) in it than on the Mac or PC. The thing is the companies selling it were way smaller and couldn't get the shelf space. So beause you couldn't go to a software store and buy anything but a few games really made it look like something it wasn't. Did you see Microsystems Excellence! at the time available at anywher but an amiga dealer or mail order? Companies like Electronics Boutique sold just games because it probably would have cut into the other manufacturers business software that was there...

So I really think that's a big misnomer that Amiga didn't have the software..

I Agree.

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Dealers hated mail order undercutting, it made the whole Amiga market very unprofitable for the small dealers who were trying to survive who didn't sell in large quantities. Commodore gave deep discounts if you bought a lot of machines every quarter because they liked their previous "64 style sales"... The mail order places really cheapened the feel of buying a machine, while Apple and IBM policed their dealer channels very carefully..

True. But it's like that today with x86 equipment. I agree that it undercut the dealers.

So all in all, what most are saying in this thread is to use AROS on cheap x86 hardware for basic Amiga work (word processing, spreadsheets, database, etc--do such applications run on AROS?) and buy a Peg2 with MorphOS and a free LinuxOS for a modern Amiga system since A1 isn't modernized enough.
AmigaOS enthusiast since 1993.
 

Offline DavidF215

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Re: But Linux is free.
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2005, 09:14:39 PM »
@terminator: "As long as Linux is around in the server market, MS is going to be unable to charge what they think their commercial products are worth."

...or what Microsoft can gouge out from their monopoly position.

@terminator: "Linux is free. When you buy a commerical package, you are not paying for Linux, you are paying for the media, the packaging, and any additional materials the publisher supplies."

Linux is available for free; however, many companies pay for Linux services, so it's still not free. It's free only if you have employees to maintain it, but even that's not free because the company pays wages. It is cheaper, yes, but not free. The license is free, but that's all that is free.

@terminator: "Time for a reality check: At $10/install, Hyperion would be dropping development tommorrow. OS4 is included in the price of the A1 system. You buy an A1, you get OS4. If not, it may as well be free because the number of installs would exceed the number of legit copies. What's next? Demanding OS4 on floppies?"

I did say they *should* do it. It was merely an idea. However, I was making a point in what has been said in this thread regarding Linux being free. Since you (and others) think Linux is gaining ground because it is free, then AmigaOS could likewise gain grown if it was free according to the "Linux is free and that's why it's a threat to Microsoft" philosophy.

QNX was put on a 1.44MB floppy with TCP/IP, a web browser, webserver, and more goodies, so why not AmigaOS? BeOS was even better than Linux, but bad management killed Be off.

@DonnyEMU
I'll download AMOS and try it out. Don't know how well it'll do on my 1900+ AMD chipset.
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Offline DavidF215

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Re: But Linux is free.
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2005, 04:19:18 PM »
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bloodline wrote:
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I'll download AMOS and try it out. Don't know how well it'll do on my 1900+ AMD chipset.
 


It should run great, if you have a Nvidia gfx card (and a SBLive! sound card), then it will be brilliant!


Yes, I have Nvidia. I have SoundBlaster 128, but it conflicts with my ASUS mobo, so I'm using that evil integrated sound that Amiga pioneered that everyone thought was too limiting. Hopefully I'll have time tonight to download AROS and test drive it; been busy last few evenings for some reason.
AmigaOS enthusiast since 1993.