Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?

[DethKnight]

As a thought, Hyperion may ought to consider providing AmigaOS for free. They can get financing through various other means including requiring OEM's to pay a small $10 license fee for each AmigaOS4 license installed on the computer; they can also charge a small upgrade fee like Microsoft and Apple do.

I got lost in there

??free single user?? then a per-seat license for multi-user??

zztzzt mental tracking *error in store 103*

[Waccoon]

DavidF215:  Say what? Then why is Microsoft so concerned about it?

It probably has more to do with the distribution model than with Linux replacing Windows.  Much of the crap Microsoft does, like not letting you read your own hard drive with a boot disk, or trying to push their "trusted" content has more to do with power than piracy.  Refer to debates over the value of Palladium (excuse me...  "Next-Generation Secure Computing Base").

DavidF215:  They had all the games I would want

They never have the games I want!  :-x

I'd pick the A1200 because it boots faster than a P3 with Windows on it.

Yeah, it boots fast... and it has no memory protection, a sucky filesystem, no virutal memory...

OS4 corrects this somewhat, but it does boot slower than an A1200, you can't run it on a 1200 without lots of extra hardware, and boot-time is pretty stupid given that these computers might be running for eight hours straight.

Therse's a reason why most workstations and terminals run Win2000 instead of XP.  With Apache and MySQL turned off, my Win2000 system boots up in 20 seconds.  I'd say that's fast enough for the stability it provides than an A1200 does not.

DavidF215:  An A1200 with an 030 would still be cheap to manufacture for less than $200-$300, wouldn't it?

I'm afraid not.  Many expansion cards for Amigas cost more than PCs.  Just beause the parts are cheap doesn't mean it's easy to build.

Besides, I think it's obvious the reason why PCs boot and run slow is because of Windows.  Even a really old PC motherboard will blow away the highest-spec 68K design with the right software.  There's no more custom hardware coming.

DavidF215:  I wouldn't call Linux exactly free. It can be bought in many computer stores like Best Buy and CompUSA. And often times next to Windows XP.  So, I don't consider "it's free" as a major reason why Microsoft is afraid of it; I would agree that it is a (one) reason, but I don't think that is the primary reason why they are now compaigning against it.

You're not buying Linux, you're buying the distribution and the custom maintenance tools.

Linux is just a kernel, and GNU is the "UNIX compatible" layer.  Both are free, but many don't want to compile all the thousands of other "standard" tools by hand.

I think Microsoft is just afraid that more companies will start using Linux as a foundation for new OSes.  As a non-commercial product, Linux builds really can't compete with the ease of use and integration of Windows, at least in principle.  Free developers most definately don't have the same priorities of making things simple as commercial companies, even if they want to make it look that way.

Frankly, that's what I'm waiting for.  I want a new OS that starts with Linux, keeps the good stuff, fixes the bad stuff without worrying about maintaining compatibility with the other 50,000 "UNIX compatible" OSes, and has an entirely new desktop.

A half-baked OS made from scratch isn't going to cut it.  UNIX does have lots of flaws that need to be fixed, but it's a good starting point and has a good philosophy for making tools.

DavidF251:  And saying that x86 hardware is cheaper is not a good argument because as AmigaOS4 became more popular, then more demand for PPC solutions would drive the prices of PPC hardware down.

If DE had been released instead of OS4, we could use x86 now and switch to PowerPC later.  That's part of the "hardware is irrelevant" argument.  Some say that if hardware doesn't matter, we might as well use PPC.  It doesn't occur to them that with proper planning, you can switch CPUs easily.

After ten years, people still have a hard time understanding why Java is so damn popular, especially in the embedded market where CPUs are switched frequently.

DavidF215:  As a thought, Hyperion may ought to consider providing AmigaOS for free.

Oh, now you're really dreaming.  Amiga has to market the machine themselves to prove it's profitable before they can work with OEMs.

Besides, everyone knows the AmgiaOne is too damn expensive AND slow AND buggy.  At least most experimental computers, like BeBox, have some major advantage over the competition.  AmigaOne is way, way behind, and will likely stay there.

[DonnyEMU]

I am only replying to this because I wrote the original material he was replying to, so I don't want my points misunderstood..

DavidF215 wrote:


You know, I went into CompUSA one time to check on MacOS game software. They had all the games I would want, and they didn't have all of the Mac games. This arguement about no games or no software doesn't really float very well. How many Office applications does one need for biz apps to type a document and create a spreadsheet; an office suite along with Solitaire is adequate for the majority of Corporate America, and I know because I've provided tech support in Corporate America for several years. Most don't even know how to use MS-Office to its potential, and the majority only need a dumb terminal with downloaded apps and a network drive to save their work (but this is another thread all together).

I agree so far..

Yeah, I do recall that an A2000/A2500 was about $2000 when it first came out, and the A4000 was a bit more when it came out, and it along with the Video Toaster, helped to propel the platform until its current barely surviving state. So someone make a modern Video Toaster equivalent for AmigaOne (and compatibles) so when AmigaOS finally works on a G5, I'll have a good machine for video editting.

Right now with under $1000 and adobe premiere you can do broadcast quality digital video and some could argue you could even do it on that $399 dell.. If that's possible it would be possible to do it all in software on an AmigaOne without having toaster hardware.. You might check out VHI Studio from www.iospirit.de

So does Dell if they sale a low grade PC for $399 (after rebates, of course). So an A1200 would still sell well with an 040 or 060 processor.

I am sorry, I just don't believe this is the case, even if you could run that CPU at that price, you are comparing CPU horsepower of a model T to a jet engine.. There are many reasons with specs that people won't continue to buy something with a 68k cpu.. (unless it becomes a tv game joystick). You really haven't spent enough time on PC hardware to make that conjecture stick.. Even, if you run AmigaOS thru UAE it would be many times faster on that low end PC..

It was simple, had good software (even though there wasn't a lot of software for the Amiga--same "not a lot of software" argument as often applied to MacOS), had a target markets (such as art and entertainment), it had true multitasking, lots of simultaneous colors on display, and some other advantages which Amiga owners know about.

Actually if you look at the Amazing Computing yearly product guide, you would find more products (literally thousands) in it than on the Mac or PC. The thing is the companies selling it were way smaller and couldn't get the shelf space. So beause you couldn't go to a software store and buy anything but a few games really made it look like something it wasn't. Did you see Microsystems Excellence! at the time available at anywher but an amiga dealer or mail order? Companies like Electronics Boutique sold just games because it probably would have cut into the other manufacturers business software that was there...

So I really think that's a big misnomer that Amiga didn't have the software..

I bought my A1200 from a catalog because it was cheaper than going to the store to buy it. I did buy the software from my local Amiga dealer in Springfield, MO at the time. Then I went down to my hometown of Corpus Christi and spoke with the Amiga dealer there, who told me I got ripped off; I was not happy then.

Dealers hated mail order undercutting, it made the whole Amiga market very unprofitable for the small dealers who were trying to survive who didn't sell in large quantities. Commodore gave deep discounts if you bought a lot of machines every quarter because they liked their previous "64 style sales"... The mail order places really cheapened the feel of buying a machine, while Apple and IBM policed their dealer channels very carefully..

My above comment about Corporate America is a good reply for this, too. Entire departments could still use an A1200/040 (or even Pentium3) for their work machine. I'd pick the A1200 because it boots faster than a P3 with Windows on it. Give them an A1200, a mouse, and an LCD monitor, and they have a computer workstation including keyboard. Would sure beat those dump door stop CPU tower hogs. I would have bought A1200's when I was IT manager at a company in Fort Worth had they still been manufactured at the time.

Actualy 3rd world countries could still use the A1200 computer. An A1200 with an 030 would still be cheap to manufacture for less than $200-$300, wouldn't it?

Sorry, things are so much faster now than they used to be and everything is automated.. Networking, multi-user improvements, systems management would be neessary to support IT organizations.. You can upgrade even a celeron to a 64 bit computer for about $300 per station these days..

Better software was one of the good points about Amiga. It's one of the reasons I bought an A1200.

I have an a1200 an A3000 and have owned every Amiga at one time or another.. I have even worked for a dealer.. The PC and Mac have moved so far along to support business environments and networking, that even OS 4 needs major improvements to fit properly in a multi-station environment. In a single workstation environment, maybe (with a competitive cpu, graphics, etc. (sounds like AmigaOne or Aros to me)..

[Waccoon]

DonnyEMU:  even OS 4 needs major improvements to fit properly in a multi-station environment

Yeah, Hyperion gave us this speech that OS4 is a single-user system and doesn't need all that multi-user stuff.  That stuff isn't just intended to let more than one person use a computer.  It's a complete framework for secure networking.  Not giving OS4 any muti-user capabilies is a big, big mistake, in the same way that Windows and Mac were very slow to realize the importance of networking and the Internet.

[Wain]

Yeah, Hyperion gave us this speech that OS4 is a single-user system and doesn't need all that multi-user stuff. That stuff isn't just intended to let more than one person use a computer. It's a complete framework for secure networking. Not giving OS4 any muti-user capabilies is a big, big mistake, in the same way that Windows and Mac were very slow to realize the importance of networking and the Internet.

Question...is it that Hyperion has no intention of ever adding these features, or is it that that much of an OS overhaul is simply too much work for getting into the OS4.0 release?  Your message makes it sound like the former.

[Waccoon]

Question...is it that Hyperion has no intention of ever adding these features, or is it that that much of an OS overhaul is simply too much work for getting into the OS4.0 release? Your message makes it sound like the former.

It's a little of both, but the official word from Hyperion is that OS4 is a single-user system, multi-user accounts aren't needed, and they are using security through obscurity.

To me, that sounds like they have no intention to add it, rather than it is too difficult, but your milage may vary.  My reasoning is that it's very difficult to add support for accounts later on, without making it a complete joke, a la Windows.  Given all the problems with today's systems, any new OS should make security a priority.

Besides, I can't believe that account security is that difficult to do, given that they already have UNIX/Linux to use as a template, and Amiga programs tend to be very well behaved compared to Windows programs (not dipping into the system folder, using config files instead of a system registry, writing files into their own folders instead of temp folders or other "special" directories defined by environment variables... etc.)

Not thinking about security now is much like getting hooked on PPC:  once you start a new platform with no legacy support, you're stuck with it.  Like it or not, PPC and non-secured filesystems are the future of Amiga -- because Hyperion either didn't think about the future, or didn't want to.

[Hammer]

Besides, I can't believe that account security is that difficult to do (SNIP)

Amiga‘s legacy message system would be an issue. This is related to memory protection issues.

out making it a complete joke, a la Windows

It can be secured with an aggressive application lockdowns and usage of non-root/admin user accounts.

[DavidF215]

DonnyEMU wrote:
I am only replying to this because I wrote the original material he was replying to, so I don't want my points misunderstood..

Right now with under $1000 and adobe premiere you can do broadcast quality digital video and some could argue you could even do it on that $399 dell.. If that's possible it would be possible to do it all in software on an AmigaOne without having toaster hardware.. You might check out VHI Studio from www.iospirit.de

I can do basic video editing on an AMD 1900+ with WinXP SP2 and Movie Maker 2. Nothing glamerous, of course, and generating 70 min of VCD/DVD data takes about 2 hours--I just start it and walk away.

So does Dell if they sale a low grade PC for $399 (after rebates, of course). So an A1200 would still sell well with an 040 or 060 processor.

I am sorry, I just don't believe this is the case, even if you could run that CPU at that price, you are comparing CPU horsepower of a model T to a jet engine.. There are many reasons with specs that people won't continue to buy something with a 68k cpu.. (unless it becomes a tv game joystick). You really haven't spent enough time on PC hardware to make that conjecture stick.. Even, if you run AmigaOS thru UAE it would be many times faster on that low end PC..

What I meant was that basic computer tasks could still be done on an 040 or 060 processor. Tasks such as word processing, spreadsheets, small to medium sized databases, web browsing, some game play, etc.

Actually if you look at the Amazing Computing yearly product guide, you would find more products (literally thousands) in it than on the Mac or PC. The thing is the companies selling it were way smaller and couldn't get the shelf space. So beause you couldn't go to a software store and buy anything but a few games really made it look like something it wasn't. Did you see Microsystems Excellence! at the time available at anywher but an amiga dealer or mail order? Companies like Electronics Boutique sold just games because it probably would have cut into the other manufacturers business software that was there...

So I really think that's a big misnomer that Amiga didn't have the software..

I Agree.

Dealers hated mail order undercutting, it made the whole Amiga market very unprofitable for the small dealers who were trying to survive who didn't sell in large quantities. Commodore gave deep discounts if you bought a lot of machines every quarter because they liked their previous "64 style sales"... The mail order places really cheapened the feel of buying a machine, while Apple and IBM policed their dealer channels very carefully..

True. But it's like that today with x86 equipment. I agree that it undercut the dealers.

So all in all, what most are saying in this thread is to use AROS on cheap x86 hardware for basic Amiga work (word processing, spreadsheets, database, etc--do such applications run on AROS?) and buy a Peg2 with MorphOS and a free LinuxOS for a modern Amiga system since A1 isn't modernized enough.

[Hammer]

What I meant was that basic computer tasks could still be done on an 040 or 060 processor. Tasks such as word processing, spreadsheets, small to medium sized databases, web browsing, some game play, etc.

68060 @50Mhz may not be enough for basic personal computing for 21st century i.e. easy MP3 play back, DVD(Mpeg2)player, full featured web browser (with WMV/Real Player/QT6 and Java VM content).

PS; AMD's PIC* reference (mainly targeted for third world countries) already blows away 68060@66Mhz based Amiga PC. *Based on the AMD’s Geode GX SoC (includes video acceleration infrastructure, integrated DDR memory controller and ‘etc’). The power consumption of 1.1Watt at 533MHz or 0.9Watt at 466Mhz. AMD’s Geode GX also includes MMX and 3DNow SIMDs.  

[Cymric]

Hammer wrote:

Besides, I can't believe that account security is that difficult to do (SNIP)

Amiga‘s legacy message system would be an issue. This is related to memory protection issues.

But are those issues that great? The way I understood it was that OS4 will introduce virtual memory (albeit in the 'off'-position with default setups), and that messaging will proceed via shared memory. I know that the OS3.x API has a flag you can pass to AllocMem() to indicate you want to allocate shared memory, although on those systems there is really no difference between normal and shared since its all one flat memory space anyway. In theory, programs which allocated everything by the book should have no problems on OS4, right? Or am I missing something?

[terminator]

bloodline wrote:

DavidF215 wrote:

terminator wrote:
(Linux is an exception, it isn't a commercial product, nor does it really have any traction outside of a few specialized zones.  It costs nothing but your time to install, so it's no big loss if you don't use it.)

Say what? Then why is Microsoft so concerned about it?

Because Linux is free and Windows is not.

As long as Linux is around in the server market, MS is going to be unable to charge what they think their commercial products are worth.

Look at how much they charge for Office, since they have little competition.

Charge too much for a server application, and suddenly Linux looks attractive to the bean counters.  Any decent IT department with a few Unix Gurus on staff would have no issues with installing Linux.  (Forget the lamers who run windows and have little experience outside of it: They cause more trouble than they're worth when not administering windows.)

[terminator]

DavidF215 wrote:

I wouldn't call Linux exactly free. It can be bought in many computer stores like Best Buy and CompUSA. And often times next to Windows XP. So, I don't consider "it's free" as a major reason why Microsoft is afraid of it; I would agree that it is a (one) reason, but I don't think that is the primary reason why they are now compaigning against it.

Linux is free.  When you buy a commerical package, you are not paying for Linux, you are paying for the media, the packaging, and any additional materials the publisher supplies.

You could download it too, less the CD, box, and any printed matter.

If it is because Linux is free, then if AmigaOS4 was free, then it too should (at some point) become a threat to Microsoft. And saying that x86 hardware is cheaper is not a good argument because as AmigaOS4 became more popular, then more demand for PPC solutions would drive the prices of PPC hardware down; thus, PPC hardware would eventually become similarly priced to x86 hardware. And if Pegasos II's PPC solution takes hold in the "free" Linux market, then because Linux is "free" PPC prices may drop anyways, so AmigaOS may benefit from it.

*Edit-add*

As a thought, Hyperion may ought to consider providing AmigaOS for free. They can get financing through various other means including requiring OEM's to pay a small $10 license fee for each AmigaOS4 license installed on the computer; they can also charge a small upgrade fee like Microsoft and Apple do.

Time for a reality check: At $10/install, Hyperion would be dropping development tommorrow.

OS4 is included in the price of the A1 system.  You buy an A1, you get OS4.  If not, it may as well be free because the number of installs would exceed the number of legit copies.

What's next?  Demanding OS4 on floppies?

[mdwh2]

DavidF215 wrote:
What I meant was that basic computer tasks could still be done on an 040 or 060 processor. Tasks such as word processing, spreadsheets, small to medium sized databases, web browsing, some game play, etc.

Only basic web browsing, and simple/old games. And that still doesn't answer why bother, when you can get much better PCs for cheaper - indeed, PCs far more modern than this spec get thrown out in the trash these days.

I don't know about US prices, but check out the first system at http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/full_systems.html . £238.47 (with Windows XP) for an Athlon 2400+. Can a far slower 060 A1200 be built for less?

Also it's not just CPU speeds. AGA is way out of date - web browsing, word processing and spreadsheets are not as fun on 640x480. That's assuming you've paid the extra for one of those scandoublers to use a PC monitor, else you're stuck on 640x256 on a TV..

Even if we were considering an 040/060 AGA based Amiga, basing it around the A1200 would still be ludicrous, since it is much more expensive to add hard drives (being 2.5"), and CD/DVD drives (since they have to be external). Also it has heating problems with an 040 IIRC.

[Waccoon]

terminator:  As long as Linux is around in the server market, MS is going to be unable to charge what they think their commercial products are worth.

It's Linux moving out of the server market (cell phones, PDAs, anything a step closer to a desktop...), that has Microsoft scared.  So long as MS controls the desktop, they can charge what they want.

terminator:  Look at how much they charge for Office, since they have little competition.

The vast, vast majority of people who have Word don't really need it.  Practically every student at my college submit newspaper articles in Word format, even though they were just text documents with no special formatting.  Just about every place where I have ever worked had Word on every computer, and all they did was print out bulletins and memos.

Just use WordPad and RTF for that!  Geez...

It's sick, but that's what happens when managers buy computers that are then used by other people.  The people who buy software in business environments are rarely the people who use it.

Oh yeah, and our newspaper office was forced to upgrade Word every year, or we couldn't read new Word documents written on newer computers.  It was sick, and probably still works that way.

Also it's not just CPU speeds. AGA is way out of date - web browsing, word processing and spreadsheets are not as fun on 640x480. That's assuming you've paid the extra for one of those scandoublers to use a PC monitor, else you're stuck on 640x256 on a TV..

Yup.  Like I said earlier, the CPU is only one compnent on the board.  There's little sense putting on USB, Firewire, SATA, and PCI slots just to dump a moldy old 060 in there, and building an old fashioned low-spec machine puts you into the same bracket as the G3 AmigaOne:  you get much less power for the same price, or more, than a modern board made by the tens of thousands.

Yeah, I don't *need* my P4 2.4, but I only paid $300 for it and a top-tier motherboard, and I'm not replacing it with a board that has far, far less performance and older standards.

Ten years from now, will AmigaOne have decendants?  I think not.

[terminator]

Waccoon wrote:

terminator:  As long as Linux is around in the server market, MS is going to be unable to charge what they think their commercial products are worth.

It's Linux moving out of the server market (cell phones, PDAs, anything a step closer to a desktop...), that has Microsoft scared.  So long as MS controls the desktop, they can charge what they want.

Bill's Gates wet dream is to figure out a way to make money off the corporate customers.  In particular, the media industry.

There is a lot of money to be made selling servers and services to sell music and movies online.  MS knows that.  The desktop customer means nothing, he is just a consumer to be delivered to MS' corporate clientele.

A lot of the functions MS' server software could provide can also be done with Linux.  So it is hard to convince Warners to part with millions so they can sell you movies over the internet, when they could probably build their own systems based around Linux.  Without MS charging for updates and their "file formats".  All MS has to do is add features to their media player, include it in a service pack, and then use that to force the media companies to upgrade their software...

For the most part, Linux isn't really a threat to their stranglehold on the desktop.  Windows is sold as a simple product, so that is what most people will go for. They stick with what they know and understand.  Linux is too complex and demanding for the average computer user (or computer reseller....)

Windows is deceptive: it looks simple, but underneath, it isn't.  Too many people make money off that, so they aren't interested in persuading the average user to convert to anything else.  Same reason why IT people hate Macs: Hard to justify big bucks to maintain a reliable system...

terminator:  Look at how much they charge for Office, since they have little competition.

The vast, vast majority of people who have Word don't really need it.  Practically every student at my college submit newspaper articles in Word format, even though they were just text documents with no special formatting.  Just about every place where I have ever worked had Word on every computer, and all they did was print out bulletins and memos.

Just use WordPad and RTF for that!  Geez...

It's sick, but that's what happens when managers buy computers that are then used by other people.  The people who buy software in business environments are rarely the people who use it.

Oh yeah, and our newspaper office was forced to upgrade Word every year, or we couldn't read new Word documents written on newer computers.  It was sick, and probably still works that way.
[/quote]

The sheep use word because it was "free".

Management buys in, because they think it's better (and the MS salesman wouldn't leave until they bought Word.)

We use WordPerfect at work, preparing legal documents.  Still, some people agitate for Word, claiming it's "better".  A few courses in WordPerfect, and they would probably have less problems.  We're at WP10, yet I don't think the file format has changed since WP6.

Of course, many pc users have no idea what the SAVE AS function can do...

 

[DonnyEMU]

DavidF215 wrote:

( snip, snip...)
....

True. But it's like that today with x86 equipment. I agree that it undercut the dealers.

So all in all, what most are saying in this thread is to use AROS on cheap x86 hardware for basic Amiga work (word processing, spreadsheets, database, etc--do such applications run on AROS?) and buy a Peg2 with MorphOS and a free LinuxOS for a modern Amiga system since A1 isn't modernized enough.

No not at all. I am suggesting if you want an Amiga style operating system and you won't leave your x86 hardware for a G4, then you might find AROS the answer. Question: Is there native apps for either OS from 3rd party developers?

You are asking if such applications run on AROS, I am quite confident that they will as development continues and the fact that it's source code compatible with 3.1 is quite amazing.

If you haven't tried AROS-Max and loaded and run all the programs that have already been ported from Aminet and Fish, then you should. It will convince you of this x86 OS's worthiness. While it's not an Amiga (not binarily 68K (without UAE) or PPC compatible) it's very capable, and with the right hardware probably faster than an AmigaOne..

My point about the OS in general being modernized enough has to do with the points I already made. Samba is a nice thing for both OS4 and AROS, but we really do need a true multi-user solution. This might be true of AROS as well. It needs to be addressed before it's put on a big network, but for now it might be a nice stand alone server/workstation.. Network admins usually don't like machines that don't have some kind of SNMP and remote administration or something they have to go to a command line that takes time to configure.

So with the Peg moving to Linux, and MorphOS stalled, if you want an Amiga style OS, you have the options of a real AmigaOne or AROS, neither give you previous chipset compatibility without emulation..

After using AROS on my existing hardware, I can't see myself  moving to a G4/G5. I think many users feel this way here in the USA and with cheap fast commodity hardware available, I can run WHATEVER OS I want on it.  If Amiga decided to make the real AmigaOS available on x86, I'd probably pre-order at whatever cost in full just to see it developed...

On Hardware:

I worked from 1985-1991 for an Amiga Dealer. The difference in the computer market today vs then is hardware is now sold as a commodity wherever you go.. You spec out the machine you want, they find the lowest price. Machines are sold on price alone these days. You don't go in expecting support or any specialized hand holding or specialized solutions. If you buy a specialized system then you are buying from a system integrator.. Back in the days of Commodore-Amiga dealers this wasn't the case..


-Don