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Author Topic: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?  (Read 17625 times)

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Offline Karlos

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #119 from previous page: January 27, 2005, 08:03:06 PM »
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This leads me to the question just HOW compatible is OS/4 with old Amiga software..


On my system, for instance, I can fire up DPaint AGA under OS4. It just runs as if it were on OS3. Except for the the fact that that things tend to be a lot snappier.

I know what you are saying about emulation, but I prefer emulation to be non-intrusive. OS4 and MOS are excellent in this respect in that they transparently run 680x0 stuff, they don't need to do a MacOSX style "load the previous OS" in order to do it and they certianly don't need to use a full blown UAE style emulation. You just run an application, and aside from the often highly conspicuous speed increases you really don't know it's not running on a real 680x0.

Now, the A1 hardware naturally has no AGA/ECS/OCS compatibility, so hardware banging stuff just won't work or won't work as expected (to say the least), but that would be true of an existing amiga "clone" like the Draco. That doesn't make it an unusable system.

What OS4 does for me, is to allow me to run my existing applications and those that are new and OS4 specific. As more and more of these appear, so I will gradually migrate away from needing / wanting any OS3.x/AGA compatibility, by which time some A1 style system will be far more attractive to me than it might be now (not that it isn't already, save for my finances :lol:)
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #120 on: January 27, 2005, 08:09:44 PM »
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PS @Previous poster, does OS 4 (a release version?) really run on your classic PPC Amiga (with accelerator)?? Me thinks for most people out there this is a no, and OS4 on acclerated classic Amiga hardware isn't supported..


Yes it really runs and runs well. Why is that such a surprise?

Check my pictures in the gallery, there's a shot from mid last  year sometime.

edit

PNG grab of me mucking about with p96 and some 680x0 stuff here (500K image)

Note that the grabbing process seemed to catch the emulated 68020 based voxelspace demo partway through (not to mention killing it's speed a bit), but typically it was getting 30fps; fullscreen it hit refresh rate. Which is far faster than my real 040 can manage running the same executable (windowed, about 12fps maximum under the same conditions).
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Offline Hammer

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #121 on: January 27, 2005, 09:17:01 PM »
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bloodline wrote:
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DonnyEMU wrote:
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Karlos wrote:
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dammy wrote:
by Karlos on 2005/1/26 17:59:19


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f it had gone x86, then great, I would have saved money too.


Then what do you call AROS, chop liver?

Dammy
TeamAROS


I have downloaded AROS periodically and taken it for a spin on the old PC. And I have to confess, it's about as much fun as one can have with x86 :-)

However, and don't take it personally but for me, AROS is not AmigaOS. It is source compatible and I do intend to code on it at some point but I prefer to wait until it has matured further. Also, I want to see where the OS is going as opposed to just where it has been. In this regard, I feel AROS and AmigaOS will diverge considerably. So, which route to follow? For me, that depends on which of the two is presently the most compatible.

It's probably not a good quantifiable reason, but one of the reasons I feel more of a connection with OS4 is that it already runs on my classic PPC, which has several bootable versions of AmigaOS. It runs the old 3.x applications (well the 680x0 ones), even the hardware banging ones, without UAE , as well as the newer OS4 native ones. I appreciate that the A1 does not have this level of compatibility, but it will always be more compatible with existing software than AROS (that is, until, AROS develops some kind of internal 680x0 emulation).


This leads me to the question just HOW compatible is OS/4 with old Amiga software.. I know that OS 3.9 enabled some PPC compatibility, but honestly to me emulation is emulation. Whether you have to run it through software or some OS later.. If you were to run a "classic" mac application on OS X it would load an entire copy of the old Mac OS just to run that application. At the chip level the PowerPC really has nothing in common with the 680x0. Most people today run a version of "UAE" just to be compatible with applications for compatiblity with old custom chips.


I think karlos's argument revolves around being able to run the OS (Be it AmigaOS4 or AROS) on his existing hardware. Funnily enough that is my argument too... the only difference is that I have invested in newer hardware, which I had to do since I now have a large x86 software investment spanning nearly 5 years. Despite exclusivly owing an Amiga for 10 years (and inclusivly for 16 years), I probably only have maybe 3 or 4 years worth of software invesment, 100% of which is not irrepalceable with modern software.

Like karlos, AmigaOS 4 only becomes interesting to me when I can run it on my existing hardware, but unlike karlos I can't get OS4 to run on my BlizzPPC... yet. But I can run AROS on my existing hardware.

What does interest me is what happens when Karlos's BlizzPPC dies... :-(

Just *hope* that uA1 is *cheap* enough when that time arrives i.e. Eyetech must sell uA1 to other markets ASAP.

This might be tricky since Eyetech is competing with other PPC vendors with MPC8548E (as an example).
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #122 on: January 27, 2005, 09:50:08 PM »
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OS4 and MOS are excellent in this respect in that they transparently run 680x0 stuff, they don't need to do a MacOSX style "load the previous OS" in order to do it and they certianly don't need to use a full blown UAE style emulation.


I think the MacOS approach is actually the best all round idea... removes the legacy dependacy.

Offline Karlos

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #123 on: January 27, 2005, 09:53:29 PM »
@Bloodline

I absolutely guarentee you would not say that if you ever had to use it ;-)

-edit-

Also, one of the reasons that OS4/MOS get the performance they do is *because* they don't rely on emulating everything as  the OS code remains native. That way all those old 3.x applications get the benefit of newer/faster OS routines, datatypes etc. etc.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #124 on: January 27, 2005, 10:08:49 PM »
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I absolutely guarentee you would not say that if you ever had to use it


I have used... it made me want to upgrade the os9 software to osX software... which makes good business sense, and perpetuates the platform :-)

Offline Karlos

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #125 on: January 27, 2005, 10:11:31 PM »
:lol: I suppose there is that :-D
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Offline Waccoon

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #126 on: January 28, 2005, 07:10:56 AM »
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Bloodline:  I have used... it made me want to upgrade the os9 software to osX software... which makes good business sense, and perpetuates the platform

Yeah, that's my beef, too.  If it was cheaper for me to get an OS4 platform (hundreds and not a full thousand), it would be easy for me to start writing software for it, which is what Amiga really needs to survive.

All this talk about what hardware matters, and after we have it, still no software.  It's tough getting used to a new platform when companies are terrified of making anything available to developers because they're worried about piracy.  That's a sure-fire way to kill a platform.

Still, many Amiga software companies are out of business, so there's no way to get an OS4 native version of many apps.  Amiga users may enjoy OS4 as a way to run their old software faster, but there's little point making software for it, now.

Me, I do Java, Perl, and PHP.  I don't have to own a Mac or Linux to know that it will work.  :-)

I am so pissed over Amiga's inability to get DE out.  The SDK was a total joke with nothing but Java apps!
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #127 on: January 28, 2005, 08:00:58 AM »
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Waccoon wrote:
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Bloodline:  I have used... it made me want to upgrade the os9 software to osX software... which makes good business sense, and perpetuates the platform

Yeah, that's my beef, too.  If it was cheaper for me to get an OS4 platform (hundreds and not a full thousand), it would be easy for me to start writing software for it, which is what Amiga really needs to survive.

All this talk about what hardware matters, and after we have it, still no software.  It's tough getting used to a new platform when companies are terrified of making anything available to developers because they're worried about piracy.  That's a sure-fire way to kill a platform.


There is too much talk of hardware... it seems like Amiga users have never realised that hardware is now a commodity... it's irrelavant to the equation of a computer platform, you just buy the cheapest that does the job.

What is important is software... the REASON why you buy the hardawre in the first place. And 10-15 year old apps, regardless of how good they are have nothing to do with people buying software.

Offline transami

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #128 on: January 28, 2005, 12:52:59 PM »
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There is too much talk of hardware... it seems like Amiga users have never realised that hardware is now a commodity... it's irrelavant to the equation of a computer platform, you just buy the cheapest that does the job.

What is important is software... the REASON why you buy the hardawre in the first place. And 10-15 year old apps, regardless of how good they are have nothing to do with people buying software.


That is DEAD ON, bloodline.

 

Offline DavidF215

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #129 on: January 28, 2005, 05:49:08 PM »
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terminator wrote:
(Linux is an exception, it isn't a commercial product, nor does it really have any traction outside of a few specialized zones.  It costs nothing but your time to install, so it's no big loss if you don't use it.)

Say what? Then why is Microsoft so concerned about it?
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #130 on: January 28, 2005, 05:59:19 PM »
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DavidF215 wrote:
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terminator wrote:
(Linux is an exception, it isn't a commercial product, nor does it really have any traction outside of a few specialized zones.  It costs nothing but your time to install, so it's no big loss if you don't use it.)

Say what? Then why is Microsoft so concerned about it?


Because Linux is free and Windows is not.

Offline DavidF215

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #131 on: January 28, 2005, 07:54:09 PM »
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1) the Apple Mac and MacOS (in it's various problems) have been around and continue to live in the face of overwhelming  Windows competition... Mac games most of the times come out later than windows, but still sell profitably.


You know, I went into CompUSA one time to check on MacOS game software. They had all the games I would want, and they didn't have all of the Mac games. This arguement about no games or no software doesn't really float very well. How many Office applications does one need for biz apps to type a document and create a spreadsheet; an office suite along with Solitaire is adequate for the majority of Corporate America, and I know because I've provided tech support in Corporate America for several years. Most don't even know how to use MS-Office to its potential, and the majority only need a dumb terminal with downloaded apps and a network drive to save their work (but this is another thread all together).

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2) The original Amiga 1000 sold a ton of machines before the   "low cost" version came out (i.e. the A500) and was positioned very well as a business and creative home solution and it was priced well above the Apple's and IBMs of the time. It wasn't until Atari with the ST came out and started UNDERCUTTING them that they released the A500..

Yeah, I do recall that an A2000/A2500 was about $2000 when it first came out, and the A4000 was a bit more when it came out, and it along with the Video Toaster, helped to propel the platform until its current barely surviving state. So someone make a modern Video Toaster equivalent for AmigaOne (and compatibles) so when AmigaOS finally works on a G5, I'll have a good machine for video editting.
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3) Apple must think there is a market still there on the low end too, to release a "new" low end machine..

So does Dell if they sale a low grade PC for $399 (after rebates, of course). So an A1200 would still sell well with an 040 or 060 processor. :)
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4) Why did people buy Amiga software in the first place over the other machines out there? It probably wasn't the revolutionary market. You can have the best hardware in the world and it won't sell without software behind it..  The simple fact is that it sold because of what the software let the machine do. Small time developers who weren't writing for the platforms of the day were gravitating towards it.. This could happen again, if the OS can still generate some unique software.

It was simple, had good software (even though there wasn't a lot of software for the Amiga--same "not a lot of software" argument as often applied to MacOS), had a target markets (such as art and entertainment), it had true multitasking, lots of simultaneous colors on display, and some other advantages which Amiga owners know about.
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5)Did you ever buy Amiga software in anywhere but a mail order or a place that sold software for other machines? Probably not.. There is a reason for this..

I bought my A1200 from a catalog because it was cheaper than going to the store to buy it. I did buy the software from my local Amiga dealer in Springfield, MO at the time. Then I went down to my hometown of Corpus Christi and spoke with the Amiga dealer there, who told me I got ripped off; I was not happy then.
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I think people would look for an alternative platform that's  different from what they use at work, if the software was unique enough in a solution..

My above comment about Corporate America is a good reply for this, too. Entire departments could still use an A1200/040 (or even Pentium3) for their work machine. I'd pick the A1200 because it boots faster than a P3 with Windows on it. Give them an A1200, a mouse, and an LCD monitor, and they have a computer workstation including keyboard. Would sure beat those dump door stop CPU tower hogs. I would have bought A1200's when I was IT manager at a company in Fort Worth had they still been manufactured at the time.

Actualy 3rd world countries could still use the A1200 computer. An A1200 with an 030 would still be cheap to manufacture for less than $200-$300, wouldn't it?

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Also I think if AmigaOS ran on standard hardware, people might see it as a good alternative (provided the software support was there, which could happen over time). While people don't wanna change their hardware (that's why they may not be an A1) they are more likely to change their software if it works better..

Better software was one of the good points about Amiga. It's one of the reasons I bought an A1200.
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Offline DavidF215

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #132 on: January 28, 2005, 10:44:04 PM »
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transami wrote:
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There is too much talk of hardware... it seems like Amiga users have never realised that hardware is now a commodity... it's irrelavant to the equation of a computer platform, you just buy the cheapest that does the job.

What is important is software... the REASON why you buy the hardawre in the first place. And 10-15 year old apps, regardless of how good they are have nothing to do with people buying software.


That is DEAD ON, bloodline.


Righto. It's all in the Reason (or solution). How can it solve a problem I have or do something better?

So, the next question is, what does A1 do better or how does it solve a problem?
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Offline DavidF215

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #133 on: January 28, 2005, 10:58:21 PM »
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bloodline wrote:
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DavidF215 wrote:
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terminator wrote:
(Linux is an exception, it isn't a commercial product, nor does it really have any traction outside of a few specialized zones.  It costs nothing but your time to install, so it's no big loss if you don't use it.)

Say what? Then why is Microsoft so concerned about it?


Because Linux is free and Windows is not.

I wouldn't call Linux exactly free. It can be bought in many computer stores like Best Buy and CompUSA. And often times next to Windows XP. So, I don't consider "it's free" as a major reason why Microsoft is afraid of it; I would agree that it is a (one) reason, but I don't think that is the primary reason why they are now compaigning against it.

If it is because Linux is free, then if AmigaOS4 was free, then it too should (at some point) become a threat to Microsoft. And saying that x86 hardware is cheaper is not a good argument because as AmigaOS4 became more popular, then more demand for PPC solutions would drive the prices of PPC hardware down; thus, PPC hardware would eventually become similarly priced to x86 hardware. And if Pegasos II's PPC solution takes hold in the "free" Linux market, then because Linux is "free" PPC prices may drop anyways, so AmigaOS may benefit from it.

*Edit-add*

As a thought, Hyperion may ought to consider providing AmigaOS for free. They can get financing through various other means including requiring OEM's to pay a small $10 license fee for each AmigaOS4 license installed on the computer; they can also charge a small upgrade fee like Microsoft and Apple do.
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Offline DethKnight

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #134 on: January 29, 2005, 04:19:49 AM »
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As a thought, Hyperion may ought to consider providing AmigaOS for free. They can get financing through various other means including requiring OEM's to pay a small $10 license fee for each AmigaOS4 license installed on the computer; they can also charge a small upgrade fee like Microsoft and Apple do.


I got lost in there

??free single user?? then a per-seat license for multi-user??

zztzzt mental tracking *error in store 103*
wanted; NONfunctional A3K keyboard wanted