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Offline Karlos

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #104 from previous page: January 26, 2005, 10:59:19 PM »
What are people's reasons for buying / using Amiga anyway?

I mean, until you can define that, what the computer's niche or attaction is, how can you begin to define what is best hardware wise?

For me personally I use the amiga simply because I enjoy it. I get far more fun out of it than windows, linux and macos put together. They have their unique strengths, but to me, the rest are monolithic, dull, souless and uninteresting. OK, linux is probably the best of a bad bunch there.

I have to work with these systems. When I come home, if I want to have some fun with a computer, I will fire up my amiga. It is that simple. I guess that makes it an enthusiast machine in my case. If it has gone PPC, so be it. I'm not complaining - I get a fat kick out of it already and  have already paid a lot for the pleasure over the years. This is true of any "vice" if you think about it. If I need to upgrade to a PPC machine to continue my indulgence and that costs me more, then for the sake of my personal enjoyment I will do so. If it had gone x86, then great, I would have saved money too. Still, who can put a price on enjoyment?

If I want cheap and fast for work, I'll buy the bits and make a PC.

I appreciate that this is not a sentiment shared by everybody, so what about you lot?
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Offline Waccoon

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #105 on: January 27, 2005, 12:02:53 AM »
Quote
terminator:  AmigaOS cannot coexist on the wintel platform with windows.

It's unfair to call it Wintel, because there are hundreds of OSes that run on x86.  Microsoft has a say in how the technologies are developed (they even play a big part in WC3 standards), but they don't own a patent on PC architecture and cannot control it completely.

Even XBox is not going to be a PC architecture, anymore.  Microsoft doesn't like to limit themselves to one platform, which is WHY they have been so successful, and others have failed.

As mdwh2 pointed out, Microsoft is expanding to the hand-held market, much of which does not use x86.

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When you're on PPC you are not in the MS sandbox.

The whole PC market is Microsoft's sandbox, as is everyone else's.  Competition is not going to die no matter what Amiga releases.  That's life.

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terminator:  They dominate x86. Do you think bill gates lays awake a night worrying about Apple's sales?

Absolutetly.  Bill's concern is to keep Apple from getting too large, but without Apple Microsoft would be a complete monopoly and the government would have to break up the company.  It's in Microsoft's best interest to keep Apple alive, which is why they invested so much money into Apple and write lots of software for the platform.

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terminator:  MS has annihilated every other operating system that tried to exist in their sphere.

It's arguable that they killed themselves.  Note that today, there's only really two operating systems:  Windows and UNIX.  Everyone that has tried to make a new non-UNIX has died.  Everyone that had a proprietary system died after PC clones started gaining momentum.  Some even died before.

Besides, the most promising computers based on proprietary hardware, Amiga and Atari, were infamous for terrible management.  Apple almost went bankrupt, too, before Jobs took over the company and repackaged everything in pretty-looking cases, which nobody in the PC market had done before (or at least not very well).

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terminator:  The CPU is everything right?

Nice to know you're as sharp at sarcasm as you are at economics.  :-)

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terminator:  There isn't the time or the space here for an economics lesson either.

Of course, seeing how that's only the biggest problem with Amiga's plan for the future...

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DonnyEMU:  Mac games most of the times come out later than windows, but still sell profitably.

Yup.  It still bugs me that there isn't more effort going into Mac software.  The market is smaller, but there's also less competition so it IS profitable.

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DonnyEMU:   It wasn't until Atari with the ST came out and started UNDERCUTTING them that they released the A500.

Yup.  I recall that the AtariST was very cheap for the CPU power and memory it gave you, even if it couldn't compete with Amiga at a graphics level.

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DonnyEMU:  Why did people buy Amiga software in the first place over the other machines out there? It probably wasn't the revolutionary market.

The Amiga was a fun computer when all the PC did was beep, and all the Mac did was leave no memory left over to do anything useful.

Today, PC's are a lot more fun, and if you want to really hack and code, there's Linux.  Amiga cannot afford to use 1980 marketing tactics, anymore.

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DonnnyEMU:  Did you ever buy Amiga software in anywhere but a mail order or a place that sold software for other machines? Probably not.. There is a reason for this..

I used to buy my Amiga software from The Memory Location, which had PC's and Macs selling side-by-side.  Of course, that was back in 1989.

[EDIT:  PCs and Amigas, I meant.  When I asked a sales rep why they didn't sell Macs, they told me they didn't see the point with Amiga around.  After I got my A1200, they stopped selling Amigas, and they started selling Macs.  They lived for maybe another two years before closing.  Too bad.  They were nice people, and was the last store I've ever visited where they allowed you to open boxed software and try it out in the store!]

 

Offline JetFireDX

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #106 on: January 27, 2005, 01:24:17 AM »
As always, this topic copletely blew up once it was started. But, reading it this time got me thinking. Now hear me out on this...what if there was a way to make a sort of IDE and /or SATA "dongle" for AOS4 that you could buy with it to allow OS4 (if ported to say the Mac hardware) to have:

1. The ability to boot off an AmigaOS bootable CD/DVD
2. An "Early Startup" menu
3. The ability to boot OS4 from a harddrive in the system.
4. The ability to detect other partitions/drives for easy dual booting of MacOS X, or Linux for PPC.

Say it was something like a 3.5in drive form factor, with some  small amount of hardware and the Amiga protected "rom" onboard that would only allow you to launch AmigaOS from any device IF this dongle was installed. This would / could allow Amiga and H&P the "security" against piracy that they want without having to have a custom A1 motherboard to buy. Certainly it would be cheaper to build and buy this small device with OS4 than to go out and get a full A1 when I already have a solid and speedy G5 Mac. The device could be completely sealed (as in a solid block) so that tampering would be difficult, and the ability to flash it could be locked out unless you have a specific program to upload a protected rom update to it. (Heck, it could even have like 512 meg - 1gig of "unprotected space" for a speedy flash drive to boot off of as a system drive - but I would like the ability to use OS4 first and foremost.)

I dunno...thinking about it, it sounds nice to me to think that then I could actually buy and support Amiga / H&P with my current setup, not to mention in a 2.5in form it could be used (possibly depending on size) in something like a Mac Mini. This would keep H&P from having to support so many different x86 motherboards and hardware, but still allow a cheaper jump into the Amiga again with hardware that out classes the AmigaONE already. Its just an idea.  :-D (and I have nothing against the x86 or the AmigaONE - My PC sits next to my Mac, and I only wish I could afford an A1)
 

Offline Hammer

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #107 on: January 27, 2005, 02:01:04 AM »
Quote
When you're on PPC you are not in the MS sandbox

In the past, Microsoft (with Motorola's funding) has promoted MS Windows NT 4.0 PowerPC edition. PowerPC’s failing in the desktop market is due to PPC's desktop infrastructure issues. Microsoft can’t fix PPC’s fundamental issues.

IF we have AMD running Freescale; the results would have been different. AMD would have SledgeHammer style PowerPC with 64bit extensions which doesn’t compromised with 7447A’s desktop application compatibility. Then they will apply Geode's low power processes for embedded deployments but without altering the ISA compatibility**.

**X86’s standard for uncompromised legacy support.

Freescale's screwing with MPC7447A's compatibility with e500 core(MPC8548E) is unacceptable in desktop PC market e.g. FPU opcodes. Freescale hasn’t learnt anything from mucking around with various 68K compatibility.

The minor compatibility difference between 750FX and 750GX is also an issue that X86 desktop ISVs would not tolerate.
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Offline Waccoon

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #108 on: January 27, 2005, 02:07:35 AM »
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JetFireDX:  Say it was something like a 3.5in drive form factor, with some small amount of hardware and the Amiga protected "rom" onboard that would only allow you to launch AmigaOS from any device IF this dongle was installed

I though the AmigaOne was already doing something like that.  You're right, though.  To pretty much guarantee that an OS will not work, you just have to change the BIOS.

I still feel more comfortable with a more standard BIOS, though.  The navigation menus used for AMI-BIOS/PHOENIX are much, much easier than typing out arcane commands in OpenFirmware, and deliver much more valuable information about the hardware.  I don't like the interfaces in OpenFirmware at all.  I haven't used u-boot, though.

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JetFireDX:  2. An "Early Startup" menu

I believe all that stuff could be done with a bootloader, rather than an extention to the BIOS.  That's why it doensn't bug me that u-boot [from what I've heard] doesn't support multiple boot images on a CD.  You only really need one.

I miss real boot loaders.  If more than one bootable image is available, just ask the user which one they want to use, along with a "remember this setting" dialog.

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Hammer:  The minor compatibility difference between 750FX and 750GX is also an issue that X86 desktop ISVs would not tolerate.

Wow.  Any idea what those compatibility issues are?

One thing I still find remarkable about the PC (if little else) is that you can still run DOS software written for a 386 on the Pentium4 EE.  If you can't, it's probably an issue with a sound card or something stupid like that.
 

Offline Hammer

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #109 on: January 27, 2005, 02:16:11 AM »
Quote
Wow. Any idea what those compatibility issues are?

Recall in AW.net threads about 750FX Vs 750GX and AOS4-Pre issues. There are *minor* different between the two PPC32, but sufficiently enough to cause some issues to AOS4-pre.

"POWER everywhere" is nice IF they freeze ISA standard i.e. none of this 68K style ISA cut&paste. The *minor* incompatibility between PowerPC chips simply sucks from mainstream programmer’s view point.

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One thing I still find remarkable about the PC (if little else) is that you can still run DOS software written for a 386 on the Pentium4 EE. If you can't, it's probably an issue with a sound card or something stupid like that.

I verify that IBM's DisplayWrite and DOS 3.30 (still in a box) can still run on Athlon 64 3200+.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #110 on: January 27, 2005, 02:30:44 AM »
Quote

Hammer wrote:
Quote
Wow. Any idea what those compatibility issues are?

Recall in AW.net threads about 750FX Vs 750GX and AOS4-Pre issues. There are *minor* different between the two PPC32, but sufficiently enough to cause some issues to AOS4-pre.

“POWER everywhere” is nice IF they freeze ISA standard i.e. none of this 68K style ISA cut&paste. The *minor* incompatibility between PowerPC chips simply sucks from mainstream programmer’s view point.



I'm not disagreeing (somehow disagreeing with Hammer about anything CPU related seems about as sensible as jamming one's tongue in a breville), but what level of incompatibility are we talking about here? I mean almost every member of the 680x0 series had minor differences with those before it - quite majorly so in the 68040 / 68060, but  I don't recall it ever being a major problem.

Is it the fact that existing instructions with the same opcode values have changed implementation or what, exactly?
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Offline Hammer

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #111 on: January 27, 2005, 02:54:37 AM »
Quote
I'm not disagreeing (somehow disagreeing with Hammer about anything CPU related seems about as sensible as jamming one's tongue in a breville), but what level of incompatibility are we talking about here?
.

Able to run unmodified ~1985 OS on 2004 HW.  

Quote

 I mean almost every member of the 680x0 series had minor differences with those before it - quite majorly so in the 68040 / 68060, but I don't recall it ever being a major problem.

Why do you need a 68040.library or DeciGEL/SetAlert command(e.g. for 68010)?

In a strict sense, such mucking around would be undesirable in the PC desktop corporate world. The administration and governances are the real issues with wana’be alternative PC camps e.g. Freescale's 8641 (Q4 2005 sampling) should be 8548 when done right the first time(sigh).
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Offline Hammer

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #112 on: January 27, 2005, 03:43:02 AM »
Quote
2. An "Early Startup" menu

During the BIOS checks; Pressing F12 on the old IBM ThinkPad T2x enables the user to select other bootable devices.  
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Offline dammy

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #113 on: January 27, 2005, 04:38:55 AM »
by Karlos on 2005/1/26 17:59:19


Quote
f it had gone x86, then great, I would have saved money too.


Then what do you call AROS, chop liver?

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Offline bloodline

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #114 on: January 27, 2005, 08:34:11 AM »
Quote

Karlos wrote:
Quote

Hammer wrote:
Quote
Wow. Any idea what those compatibility issues are?

Recall in AW.net threads about 750FX Vs 750GX and AOS4-Pre issues. There are *minor* different between the two PPC32, but sufficiently enough to cause some issues to AOS4-pre.

“POWER everywhere” is nice IF they freeze ISA standard i.e. none of this 68K style ISA cut&paste. The *minor* incompatibility between PowerPC chips simply sucks from mainstream programmer’s view point.



I'm not disagreeing (somehow disagreeing with Hammer about anything CPU related seems about as sensible as jamming one's tongue in a breville), but what level of incompatibility are we talking about here? I mean almost every member of the 680x0 series had minor differences with those before it - quite majorly so in the 68040 / 68060, but  I don't recall it ever being a major problem.

Is it the fact that existing instructions with the same opcode values have changed implementation or what, exactly?


Had AMD run Motorola, the PPC would have had a 68K frontend, which could be switched in and out like the Athlon64's Long mode... Also the PPC Mode would have been called 64 bit mode (As the ISA would have been 64bit) and the promotional material would have said: "The New '68K64', can run all you existing apps, and ready for MacOS-64 and AmigaOS-64!". :-D

Hammer is right though, had Motorola kept better compatibility between all it's products they would have survived better on the desktop.

Err... Windows 3.11 runs on my Althon64...  :inquisitive: Weird...

Offline Karlos

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #115 on: January 27, 2005, 12:01:59 PM »
Quote

dammy wrote:
by Karlos on 2005/1/26 17:59:19


Quote
f it had gone x86, then great, I would have saved money too.


Then what do you call AROS, chop liver?

Dammy
TeamAROS


I have downloaded AROS periodically and taken it for a spin on the old PC. And I have to confess, it's about as much fun as one can have with x86 :-)

However, and don't take it personally but for me, AROS is not AmigaOS. It is source compatible and I do intend to code on it at some point but I prefer to wait until it has matured further. Also, I want to see where the OS is going as opposed to just where it has been. In this regard, I feel AROS and AmigaOS will diverge considerably. So, which route to follow? For me, that depends on which of the two is presently the most compatible.

It's probably not a good quantifiable reason, but one of the reasons I feel more of a connection with OS4 is that it already runs on my classic PPC, which has several bootable versions of AmigaOS. It runs the old 3.x applications (well the 680x0 ones), even the hardware banging ones, without UAE , as well as the newer OS4 native ones. I appreciate that the A1 does not have this level of compatibility, but it will always be more compatible with existing software than AROS (that is, until, AROS develops some kind of internal 680x0 emulation).
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Offline DonnyEMU

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #116 on: January 27, 2005, 03:04:57 PM »
Quote

Karlos wrote:
Quote

dammy wrote:
by Karlos on 2005/1/26 17:59:19


Quote
f it had gone x86, then great, I would have saved money too.


Then what do you call AROS, chop liver?

Dammy
TeamAROS


I have downloaded AROS periodically and taken it for a spin on the old PC. And I have to confess, it's about as much fun as one can have with x86 :-)

However, and don't take it personally but for me, AROS is not AmigaOS. It is source compatible and I do intend to code on it at some point but I prefer to wait until it has matured further. Also, I want to see where the OS is going as opposed to just where it has been. In this regard, I feel AROS and AmigaOS will diverge considerably. So, which route to follow? For me, that depends on which of the two is presently the most compatible.

It's probably not a good quantifiable reason, but one of the reasons I feel more of a connection with OS4 is that it already runs on my classic PPC, which has several bootable versions of AmigaOS. It runs the old 3.x applications (well the 680x0 ones), even the hardware banging ones, without UAE , as well as the newer OS4 native ones. I appreciate that the A1 does not have this level of compatibility, but it will always be more compatible with existing software than AROS (that is, until, AROS develops some kind of internal 680x0 emulation).


This leads me to the question just HOW compatible is OS/4 with old Amiga software.. I know that OS 3.9 enabled some PPC compatibility, but honestly to me emulation is emulation. Whether you have to run it through software or some OS later.. If you were to run a "classic" mac application on OS X it would load an entire copy of the old Mac OS just to run that application. At the chip level the PowerPC really has nothing in common with the 680x0. Most people today run a version of "UAE" just to be compatible with applications for compatiblity with old custom chips.

The issue for me with Aros is no longer does it run on a network or is it compatible? The issue is completeness of existing features like wanderer. I have already a machine waiting dedicated to AROS, and source compatiblity is good enough as long as it inspires a new generation of software.

So far AmigaOS4 has been out in one form or another (not the final release) and I have yet to see a lot of cool new software. You always have to give these things about a year to happen, but I am happy with my amd64 windows box until that happens. When I actually see new software for it, I probably will buy one.. However I am not convinced that speedwise and hardware coolness wise it, that it's anywhere as nice as the intel hardware I own..

I think for PC hardware lovers AROS is the trojan horse necessary to raise their "Amiga consciousness" and people will like it in some instances even better than Windows. Certainly for what it does the price is right..

I think Amiga folks need to get over their "mac envy" and see modern cpus (even Intel ones) for what they are just tools.. Even with Altivec, no one is gonna convince me I am gonna get better performance out of that than an equally expensive intel-compatible system..

I sound like I am trolling here, but someone needs really to do an evaluation with just how compatible an A1 is with "classic Amiga" before they suggest anything about how compatible AROS is to "classic Amiga".. How much of that classic software is also still out there for sale? I am sorry but I am not a fanboy of the A1 and REFUSE to give it, more respect until I see more native software (out for sale on store shelves). I would also see a model that's even competitive with even current low-end intel boxes price-wise..

I would like to see Eyetech selling something other than a cheap low-end crap sound card like the Vibra 16 for the A1. Why even bother? The (CMI based)AC'97 sound built into the A1 models is much nicer. I think you have to position a machine correctly, and things like Radeon 7000 support and sounds cards that are so 3-4 years ago need to change. Someone has to go out there and write software and maybe even sell drivers that support more modern hardware not just things that are an easy port from the open source community. Until this happens the machine will always gather a certain "lacklusterness" even though it has the "Amiga" brand..

PS @Previous poster, does OS 4 (a release version?) really run on your classic PPC Amiga (with accelerator)?? Me thinks for most people out there this is a no, and OS4 on acclerated classic Amiga hardware isn't supported..
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #117 on: January 27, 2005, 03:22:15 PM »
Quote

DonnyEMU wrote:
Quote

Karlos wrote:
Quote

dammy wrote:
by Karlos on 2005/1/26 17:59:19


Quote
f it had gone x86, then great, I would have saved money too.


Then what do you call AROS, chop liver?

Dammy
TeamAROS


I have downloaded AROS periodically and taken it for a spin on the old PC. And I have to confess, it's about as much fun as one can have with x86 :-)

However, and don't take it personally but for me, AROS is not AmigaOS. It is source compatible and I do intend to code on it at some point but I prefer to wait until it has matured further. Also, I want to see where the OS is going as opposed to just where it has been. In this regard, I feel AROS and AmigaOS will diverge considerably. So, which route to follow? For me, that depends on which of the two is presently the most compatible.

It's probably not a good quantifiable reason, but one of the reasons I feel more of a connection with OS4 is that it already runs on my classic PPC, which has several bootable versions of AmigaOS. It runs the old 3.x applications (well the 680x0 ones), even the hardware banging ones, without UAE , as well as the newer OS4 native ones. I appreciate that the A1 does not have this level of compatibility, but it will always be more compatible with existing software than AROS (that is, until, AROS develops some kind of internal 680x0 emulation).


This leads me to the question just HOW compatible is OS/4 with old Amiga software.. I know that OS 3.9 enabled some PPC compatibility, but honestly to me emulation is emulation. Whether you have to run it through software or some OS later.. If you were to run a "classic" mac application on OS X it would load an entire copy of the old Mac OS just to run that application. At the chip level the PowerPC really has nothing in common with the 680x0. Most people today run a version of "UAE" just to be compatible with applications for compatiblity with old custom chips.


I think karlos's argument revolves around being able to run the OS (Be it AmigaOS4 or AROS) on his existing hardware. Funnily enough that is my argument too... the only difference is that I have invested in newer hardware, which I had to do since I now have a large x86 software investment spanning nearly 5 years. Despite exclusivly owing an Amiga for 10 years (and inclusivly for 16 years), I probably only have maybe 3 or 4 years worth of software invesment, 100% of which is not irrepalceable with modern software.

Like karlos, AmigaOS 4 only becomes interesting to me when I can run it on my existing hardware, but unlike karlos I can't get OS4 to run on my BlizzPPC... yet. But I can run AROS on my existing hardware.

What does interest me is what happens when Karlos's BlizzPPC dies... :-(

Offline Karlos

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #118 on: January 27, 2005, 07:53:06 PM »
@Bloodline

When that fateful day arrives, I will be forced to reconsider my options. However, it is quite likely that I will have already bought a more powerful PPC system by then, the migration from classic to A1 will be even less painful than it is now.

An interesting future project, in many ways a variation of one of my existing ones would be a Unified Amiga Layer, a nice standard library, classes etc that make the future diversification of the platforms easier to deal with from a developer perspective.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Why not AmigaOS4 for x86 Platforms?
« Reply #119 on: January 27, 2005, 08:03:06 PM »
Quote

This leads me to the question just HOW compatible is OS/4 with old Amiga software..


On my system, for instance, I can fire up DPaint AGA under OS4. It just runs as if it were on OS3. Except for the the fact that that things tend to be a lot snappier.

I know what you are saying about emulation, but I prefer emulation to be non-intrusive. OS4 and MOS are excellent in this respect in that they transparently run 680x0 stuff, they don't need to do a MacOSX style "load the previous OS" in order to do it and they certianly don't need to use a full blown UAE style emulation. You just run an application, and aside from the often highly conspicuous speed increases you really don't know it's not running on a real 680x0.

Now, the A1 hardware naturally has no AGA/ECS/OCS compatibility, so hardware banging stuff just won't work or won't work as expected (to say the least), but that would be true of an existing amiga "clone" like the Draco. That doesn't make it an unusable system.

What OS4 does for me, is to allow me to run my existing applications and those that are new and OS4 specific. As more and more of these appear, so I will gradually migrate away from needing / wanting any OS3.x/AGA compatibility, by which time some A1 style system will be far more attractive to me than it might be now (not that it isn't already, save for my finances :lol:)
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