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AuthorTopic: Great Source of A1200 / A600 caps and other retro items  (Read 231 times)

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Offline a1200

Great Source of A1200 / A600 caps and other retro items
« on: December 22, 2015, 11:54:00 AM »
This guy was so helpful and went the extra mile when Royal Mail lost my order - he made sure I got another set so I can do the recap over Christmas. Link to eBay shop.
Amiga A1200, 3.1 ROMs, Blizzard 1230 MKIV 128MB & FPU, 4GB DoM SSD, Workbench 3.1
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Great Source of A1200 / A600 caps and other retro items
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2015, 04:51:51 PM »
Quote from: a1200;800560
This guy was so helpful and went the extra mile when Royal Mail lost my order - he made sure I got another set so I can do the recap over Christmas. Link to eBay shop.

I was going to open topic about it. I hear/read EVERYWHERE about changing cap in our Amiga or in general "classic" computers.

WHY?

IF caps are not "bursting" they are fine. They all are rated for few thousand hours of use. My experience. I had LCD monitor and it had problems with start up. I found out this monitor had issues with caps. I opened monitor and... few caps were getting out of shape. I replaced  them and monitor works great last two years.

So, why to change caps "just in case"?

I have Color Classic on original caps, works like a dream. Should I replace caps? Same with my Amigas...

EDIT: Maybe it could be new topic...
A1200inE/BOX/3.1.4/AmigaOS3.9+BB1,2,3,4/060/66Mhz+603+/330Mhz/256Mb/FAST-ATA V /MediatorTX/R9200SE/SpiderUSB/LAN/SB128/16Gb-CF/DVD-ROM/ZIP-250/FDD-HD
PC/AmigaOS4.1/Xeon 1265Lv3  with Amiga Forever 2016!!!.
Dell T600/Win98SE/XP/256Mb/Radeon9600Pro/SBLive!/80Gb/DVD-ROM
Color Classic/System 7.1/030/16Mhz/FPU/10Mb/80Mb HDD
Performa 6400/System 8.6/PPC 603ev180Mhz+G3 350Mhz/Rage128Pro/136Mb/80GB HDD
IBM PC :)
 

Offline mistermsk

Re: Great Source of A1200 / A600 caps and other retro items
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2015, 05:48:46 PM »
CAPs are usually rated for a 10 or so year life span. If they fail they might take out other components along the way. You don't want to be in the middle of something and smoke your Amiga.

With that being said. You need to check the age of the CAPs you are buying. You do not want to buy new-old stock. You want to buy good quality new CAPs from a reliable source.
 

Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: Great Source of A1200 / A600 caps and other retro items
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2015, 06:16:29 PM »
Quote from: kreciu;800581
IF caps are not "bursting" they are fine.

OMG, really? Not even going to waste my time arguing with you, if you believe this so adamantly.  Am sure others will be along to point out the error of your ways, however.

:laughing:
Amiga 500: 2MB Chip|16MB Fast|30MHz 68030+68882|3.9|Indivision ECS|GVP A500HD+|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|Cocolino|SCSI DVD-RAM
Amiga 2000: 2MB Chip|136MB Fast|50MHz 68060|3.9|Indivision ECS + GVP Spectrum|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|AD516|X-Surf 100|RapidRoad|Cocolino|SCSI CD-RW
 Amiga videos and other misc. stuff at https://www.youtube.com/CompTechMike/videos
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Great Source of A1200 / A600 caps and other retro items
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2015, 06:22:31 PM »
Quote from: mistermsk;800583
CAPs are usually rated for a 10 or so year life span. If they fail they might take out other components along the way. You don't want to be in the middle of something and smoke your Amiga.

...but if not used they should not have "life span affected". IMO.


Quote
With that being said. You need to check the age of the CAPs you are buying. You do not want to buy new-old stock. You want to buy good quality new CAPs from a reliable source.

I think it just because they are OLD but not use it will not make them BAD.
A1200inE/BOX/3.1.4/AmigaOS3.9+BB1,2,3,4/060/66Mhz+603+/330Mhz/256Mb/FAST-ATA V /MediatorTX/R9200SE/SpiderUSB/LAN/SB128/16Gb-CF/DVD-ROM/ZIP-250/FDD-HD
PC/AmigaOS4.1/Xeon 1265Lv3  with Amiga Forever 2016!!!.
Dell T600/Win98SE/XP/256Mb/Radeon9600Pro/SBLive!/80Gb/DVD-ROM
Color Classic/System 7.1/030/16Mhz/FPU/10Mb/80Mb HDD
Performa 6400/System 8.6/PPC 603ev180Mhz+G3 350Mhz/Rage128Pro/136Mb/80GB HDD
IBM PC :)
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Great Source of A1200 / A600 caps and other retro items
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2015, 06:24:01 PM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;800586
OMG, really? Not even going to waste my time arguing with you, if you believe this so adamantly.  Am sure others will be along to point out the error of your ways, however.

:laughing:


I'm asking question. If you have answer, please provide.

From this what I know, capacitors age only when USED.
A1200inE/BOX/3.1.4/AmigaOS3.9+BB1,2,3,4/060/66Mhz+603+/330Mhz/256Mb/FAST-ATA V /MediatorTX/R9200SE/SpiderUSB/LAN/SB128/16Gb-CF/DVD-ROM/ZIP-250/FDD-HD
PC/AmigaOS4.1/Xeon 1265Lv3  with Amiga Forever 2016!!!.
Dell T600/Win98SE/XP/256Mb/Radeon9600Pro/SBLive!/80Gb/DVD-ROM
Color Classic/System 7.1/030/16Mhz/FPU/10Mb/80Mb HDD
Performa 6400/System 8.6/PPC 603ev180Mhz+G3 350Mhz/Rage128Pro/136Mb/80GB HDD
IBM PC :)
 

Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: Great Source of A1200 / A600 caps and other retro items
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2015, 07:40:47 PM »
Quote from: kreciu;800589
I'm asking question. If you have answer, please provide.

I hate to be one of those grumpy old men who says "search the forums", but seriously.  This question has been asked literally *hundreds* of times.

There's a really good thread (which I can't find off-hand) that shows the damage from leaking caps, with pictures.  Thing is that a lot of them will leak from the bottom, so just a visual "surface" inspection may not reveal the corrosion occurring beneath them.  And by the time you start getting the stability and audio glitches (a common sign that the caps are starting to go) common in our Amiga's, especially A600/1200/4000/CD32, irreversible damage may already have occurred.

Then there's the aside that *it is just so cheap to do*, why would anyone not do this common preventative maintenance?  Even if you lack the tools or knowledge to do it yourself, AmigaKit and many others will do it for <$40 USD per board.  Not doing common preventative maintenance is like arguing that you shouldn't change the oil in your car "since you can't see it it must not be bad", right?  Gah.  :p

I've never personally replaced the caps in an Amiga (yet - A2000's aren't as susceptible), but as a former Dell field technician I have replaced hundreds of motherboards that fell victim to "capacitor plague".  (see link)  Just do it, and rest easier at night.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 07:44:27 PM by Oldsmobile_Mike »
Amiga 500: 2MB Chip|16MB Fast|30MHz 68030+68882|3.9|Indivision ECS|GVP A500HD+|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|Cocolino|SCSI DVD-RAM
Amiga 2000: 2MB Chip|136MB Fast|50MHz 68060|3.9|Indivision ECS + GVP Spectrum|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|AD516|X-Surf 100|RapidRoad|Cocolino|SCSI CD-RW
 Amiga videos and other misc. stuff at https://www.youtube.com/CompTechMike/videos
 

Offline mechy

Re: Great Source of A1200 / A600 caps and other retro items
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2015, 07:49:22 PM »
Quote from: kreciu;800589
I'm asking question. If you have answer, please provide.

From this what I know, capacitors age only when USED.

No, all Amiga caps in all Amiga motherboards have well exceeded their life ratings.
Even if they are not leaking,they most likely have a reduced capacitance and/or may be completely bad.
These bad caps may not be filtering power coming in properly,or may allow noise or reduced volume on the audio etc.Dirty power can lead to random crashes and such.

Caps age mostly when not used.

 It is why the military cycle their electronics often,to keep the caps viable, otherwise they go bad quicker.

Its a bit like letting a car battery set dead,if you leave it that way long enough it sulphates and/or shorts the plates and usually can't be revived.

old caps can leak and the leakage can eat traces just like the leaking batteries. I have repaired many boards in the last 15 years with neglected caps.

Its like having 4 bald tires on your car, and one blows out.. you don't put 1 new tire on knowing the other 3 are about to fail...well maybe you do,but most people dont lol
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Great Source of A1200 / A600 caps and other retro items
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2015, 08:13:50 PM »
Quote from: mechy;800593
No, all Amiga caps in all Amiga motherboards have well exceeded their life ratings.
Even if they are not leaking,they most likely have a reduced capacitance and/or may be completely bad.
These bad caps may not be filtering power coming in properly,or may allow noise or reduced volume on the audio etc.Dirty power can lead to random crashes and such.


I was thinking about capacitance decreasing in time. This is most convincing for me.

There is multiple types of caps... so called "solid" caps. Can I replace Amiga caps with any type (same specs)?

I would think that it should be fine? Why not to put there something what will last "for ever"? Since there are caps with no degradation?
A1200inE/BOX/3.1.4/AmigaOS3.9+BB1,2,3,4/060/66Mhz+603+/330Mhz/256Mb/FAST-ATA V /MediatorTX/R9200SE/SpiderUSB/LAN/SB128/16Gb-CF/DVD-ROM/ZIP-250/FDD-HD
PC/AmigaOS4.1/Xeon 1265Lv3  with Amiga Forever 2016!!!.
Dell T600/Win98SE/XP/256Mb/Radeon9600Pro/SBLive!/80Gb/DVD-ROM
Color Classic/System 7.1/030/16Mhz/FPU/10Mb/80Mb HDD
Performa 6400/System 8.6/PPC 603ev180Mhz+G3 350Mhz/Rage128Pro/136Mb/80GB HDD
IBM PC :)
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Great Source of A1200 / A600 caps and other retro items
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2015, 08:18:35 PM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;800592
I hate to be one of those grumpy old men who says "search the forums", but seriously.  This question has been asked literally *hundreds* of times.

OK. I know, it was asked for SURE by someone. Problem is that I like to have conversation with PEOPLE.

In next 10 years, we will have answers in google.com for every single question you (I) can ask EVER. Should you close "forum" section and tell everybody "go and search google library"?

BOOOOOOOORING.

IMO there is value in conversation, interaction etc. it is called learning process. It is like with school. ALL what we teach was already ANSWERED (I'm teacher). So, do you think I will tell my students: Stop asking questions, go to google and read answers? There are there for sure.

Take it or leave it.

Quote
Just do it, and rest easier at night.

Most likely I will do it, but now I want to know "what is best" for my few Amigas...
A1200inE/BOX/3.1.4/AmigaOS3.9+BB1,2,3,4/060/66Mhz+603+/330Mhz/256Mb/FAST-ATA V /MediatorTX/R9200SE/SpiderUSB/LAN/SB128/16Gb-CF/DVD-ROM/ZIP-250/FDD-HD
PC/AmigaOS4.1/Xeon 1265Lv3  with Amiga Forever 2016!!!.
Dell T600/Win98SE/XP/256Mb/Radeon9600Pro/SBLive!/80Gb/DVD-ROM
Color Classic/System 7.1/030/16Mhz/FPU/10Mb/80Mb HDD
Performa 6400/System 8.6/PPC 603ev180Mhz+G3 350Mhz/Rage128Pro/136Mb/80GB HDD
IBM PC :)
 

Offline mechy

Re: Great Source of A1200 / A600 caps and other retro items
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2015, 10:08:29 PM »
Quote from: kreciu;800599
I was thinking about capacitance decreasing in time. This is most convincing for me.

There is multiple types of caps... so called "solid" caps. Can I replace Amiga caps with any type (same specs)?

I would think that it should be fine? Why not to put there something what will last "for ever"? Since there are caps with no degradation?

Polymer caps(panasonic and other quality brands) are fine to use as replacements for electrolytics if the specs are matched, sometimes it is hard to find the value or size that matches however.

unfortunately there is no forever cap that i know of, but quality caps last between 10-30 years, look how long the originals made it and they were mediocre quality :)

tantalum,ceramics,foil,polyester,electrolytics all degrade eventually and some are not acceptable replacements for electrolytics.

i tend to stick with the panasonic long life ones.

Also keep in mind if you overheat it when soldering it it can reduce its life quite a bit.
 

Offline leofoe

 

Offline x56h34

Re: Great Source of A1200 / A600 caps and other retro items
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2015, 02:37:20 PM »
I personally do not replace Amiga or any vintage computer capacitors if not required. My practice is to every once in a while (perhaps annually) measure each capacitor level with a multimeter. If I should see signs of age, I will replace, otherwise I leave them be if they show sufficient life left.

The reason for the above is simply due to minimizing risk of damaging any components such as the motherboard, solder pads, etc due to applying heat via a soldering iron, hot air, etc.

I am not saying the above is the absolute right way to go about it, but only what I personally consider to be the right thing to do, when trying to best take care of 30 year old equipment while assessing all possible risks of damage.
 

Offline Blizz1220

Re: Great Source of A1200 / A600 caps and other retro items
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2015, 04:06:42 PM »
How can you test them without removing them ?

And how can you remove them without soldering iron ???

That aside some caps can last much longer than some and never
leak so in that case I wouldn't poke around too much.Still , if cap
gets dried up and you replace it with full one something may blow up.
 

Offline mechy

Re: Great Source of A1200 / A600 caps and other retro items
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2015, 04:15:51 PM »
Quote from: x56h34;800653
I personally do not replace Amiga or any vintage computer capacitors if not required. My practice is to every once in a while (perhaps annually) measure each capacitor level with a multimeter. If I should see signs of age, I will replace, otherwise I leave them be if they show sufficient life left.

The reason for the above is simply due to minimizing risk of damaging any components such as the motherboard, solder pads, etc due to applying heat via a soldering iron, hot air, etc.

I am not saying the above is the absolute right way to go about it, but only what I personally consider to be the right thing to do, when trying to best take care of 30 year old equipment while assessing all possible risks of damage.

You cant test a cap with a multimeter, it will not tell you anything useful. The only way to properly test a cap is with a ESR meter and you would have to desolder them to do that.

soldering/desoldering caps is a basic,standard procedure in electronics, there should be no reason to cause damage if you are doing it correctly.