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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Marketplace => Topic started by: murple on July 15, 2007, 03:55:17 AM
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I need a flicker fixer and/or scan doubler. Id prefer an external one so I can use it on both my 1200 and 2000, but an internal one for either would work. The 2000 has an OpalVision graphics card, apparently theres an addon flicker fixer for that card so if someone has one of those, that'd work too.
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why buy a scarse and expensive flicker fixer/scan doubler i have a amiga 1950 vga monitor that will work with with any amiga. my asking price is 35.00 usa sales only. send me an e mail if your interested (price does not include shipping) i am not a business but a private party.
james underscore 23703 at yahoo dot com
portsmouth va
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Thanks, but thats not what I want.
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You just missed this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBUAA:US:11&Item=280131939280) on eBay. Went for a whopping $185,50.
The world needs a new supply of scandoublers.
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Yeah, I lost out on that one. I didn't have the funds to go higher. :-(
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The alternative would be a SCART to VGA adapter which is basically a scandoubler but much cheaper. Would work with an Amiga RGB -> SCART cable.
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moto
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Really? Hmmm.... Do you know where to find said items? :-o
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The vast majority of US TVs are not Scart enabled.
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Well I think he was talking about using 2 adapters in line. Amiga RGB -> SCART | SCART -> VGA.
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Yes, but these boxes are aimed at the European market and consequently they are usually 220V/50Hz
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Ouchy! That stinks. :boohoo:
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Yeah, I was watching that one but didnt get back to it in time.
How hard are these things to make? Seriously, I dont see why nobody's come up with new ones. It'd sell like hotcakes with crack rocks.
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A lot of the components in the external Scandoubler/flicker fixer design are not ROHS compliant and are now unavailable.
The 23-pin connectors in right-angle SMD form are almost impossible to source.
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The RoHS is just a EU law though, isnt it? That still leaves the US, Canada, Asia, and other markets where the components could be made. Either way, these things cant be THAT complex, there's got to be new designs that would accomplish the same thing.
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It is EU law but has global implications. Now component manufacturers worldwide are complying with ROHS due to it being more economical to make ROHS batches of components.
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RoHS is also law in Canada all new electronics must be RoHS compliant in order to enter the country.
The "Toastscan" flicker fixer was being made by a fairly small production line company and it was no longer cost effective to build due to the difficulty of getting parts.
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Itd be nice if the schematics were published so that people could try and homebrew new ones. I cant imagine they're very complex devices. From what I've read they seem to mostly work by somehow buffering output in memory and doing a frequency step up. While it may not be cost effective for a company to make them for sale, it may be quite affordable for hobbyists to make their own... considering used ones sell for $200US and more, I can't imagine it would cost more than that to produce.
Things that wouldn't be very acceptable in a commercial product can be fine for home hardware hackers. For example, one of the mentioned issues... "23-pin connectors in right-angle SMD" being hard to get. If I were making a product for sale, I'd probably want it to be on a nice PCB with surface mounted components. If I were making something for myself, I'd be happy with a connector dangling by wires - maybe even one recycled from something else, say, an Amiga monitor cable cut in half.
Homebrew electronics work was a big factor in developing the home computer industry. It'd be nice if that spirit got resurrected for those of us trying to maintain these vintage machines.
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Err, that would have been me (the winner of the auction :))
I have a Scandex as well, which I can't seem to get to work.
I have heard that this may be a power related issue (or lack thereof), but I haven't had the time to hook up a PC power supply to test the theory.
If anyone has some insight into this, a PM would be much appreciated.
Problem: Plug the scandex in (with power off) connect to the monitor, turn power on. Amiga power light comes on, no further activity.
If I can verify that it does indeed work, I may be interested in selling it.
-(e)
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What kind of Amiga? Is it an A1200? They come with power supplies that are kind of wimpy. If you use an A1200 with an accelerator and other add ons, it can be insufficient power. The usual fix is to use an Amiga 500 (I think 600s work too) power supply instead, theyve got more wattage.
I got an internal A1200 flicker fixer last week. I cant use it with anything but my 1200 though, and I'd really like an external one that can be used on all my Amigas. If you decide to sell yours let me know... then I'll probably sell the internal I have.
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External ones suck compared to the best internal ones.
They have to re-digitise the analog signal.
Digital->Analog->Digital->Analog
You can imagine what that does to the quality.
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Hi,
Yep an amiga 1200 (actually 2 of them). I've tried the Scandex on both, with the heavy type psu and the lighter type psu and no dice. Also tried with the blizzard 1230's removed, still no dice. I'm starting to think I may have bought a lemon.
I will test further as time allows. If anything changes and I decide to sell I'll let you know.
btw. This is my first foray into the amiga world (I've wanted one since I first saw an A500 about 20 years ago) and I have to say the system ROCKS! :)
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murple wrote:
Itd be nice if the schematics were published so that people could try and homebrew new ones. While it may not be cost effective for a company to make them for sale, it may be quite affordable for hobbyists to make their own...
If I were making something for myself, I'd be happy with a connector dangling by wires - maybe even one recycled from something else, say, an Amiga monitor cable cut in half.
Homebrew electronics work was a big factor in developing the home computer industry. It'd be nice if that spirit got resurrected for those of us trying to maintain these vintage machines.
The Amiga being a prime example. Couldn't agree with you more Murple.
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It's very easy to make your own 16-bit scandoubler if you REALLY want to.
You need two chips both by Averlogic.
One is a triple 10-bit ADC, the other is the AL250 scandoubler.
A guy called Roy sells ready made ones under the name "CoCo VGA" (because they were originally made for a Tandy CoCo).
http://www.miba51.com/CoCo_VGA_Adpater.html
Bummer is they are only 16-bit, but then so are a lot of Amiga ones.
At $65 delivered they are ok.
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Oh, sweet! That price is quite reasonable, and 16 bit is fine. 90% of what I'd probably want to use a scan doubler for is WorkBench stuff, since most games/demos use standard Amiga modes and look just fine at default resolutions.
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16-bit means that you loose some colour resolution in AGA screen modes (which are 24-bit).
Not a problem if you have an OCS/ECS Amiga, but not brilliant if you have an AGA Amiga.
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Anyone actually TRIED this scan doubler with an amiga?
Which video modes does it display correctly?
What about interlace?
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I have an internal flicker fixer in my 1200 (though I havent figured out how to make it fit and still have my hard drive in there, ugh) so I just want one for my A2000. Thanks for the link.
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vic20owner wrote:
Anyone actually TRIED this scan doubler with an amiga?
Which video modes does it display correctly?
What about interlace?
I dont think Roy has ever tried it with an Amiga. He recently used it with an Atari ST.
The chips work with all standard TV compatible modes. It is a deinterlacer so of course handles interlaced modes.
Probably doesnt work with Productivity mode etc.
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alexh wrote:
One is a triple 10-bit ADC, the other is the AL250 scandoubler.
A guy called Roy sells ready made ones
Do you know if he uses these Averlogic chips in his (Roy's) scandoublers?
alexh wrote:
Bummer is they are only 16-bit, but then so are a lot of Amiga ones.
To make a 24bit one, would you just need a better ADC? If the ADC is 10bits, would that mean it's used for 10bit color (not 16bit, but 1024 colors in a format like 4:3:3 bits for RGB), or would it mean 10bits per channel (RGB), which would then yield, again not 16bit but conceivably up to 10x3=30bit ?
Thanks
PS. I'm with Murple on the "open sourced" SD/FF, and agree fully with the "don't care about RoHS/production pieces" attitude on these things. If it's meant for homebrew, then it doesn't matter. I have plenty of DB25 cable to tear apart for getting my DB23 (just pull 2 pins out :) And also, sadly, AmigaKit is right about *why* SD/FFs aren't been made. Jens Schoenfeld gave us the exact same reasons for the lack of SD/FF hardware.
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Roy's CoCo VGA contains the Averlogic chips.
The issue is not the ADC (that is effectively 30-bit) but it is the RGB input to the scandoubler which is only 16-bit (5:6:5)
And also, sadly, AmigaKit is right about *why* SD/FFs aren't been made. Jens Schoenfeld gave us the exact same reasons for the lack of SD/FF hardware.
Price is the killer, you HAVE to use off the shelf components to keep the price down. If you are above the $65 (£35) is the "wife acceptable" price point. Anything above that and you have to almost DOUBLE the sale price as you will only sell half as many.
MiniMig has a built in Scandoubler, as does Clone-A so a separate scandoubler project is mute at this point.
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MiniMig has a built in Scandoubler, as does Clone-A so a separate scandoubler project is mute at this point.
Speak for yourself. Many of us are vintage computer geeks who enjoy using their Amigas. Clone-A and MiniMig are neither vintage nore Amigas. Yeah, they may be cool, they may do just about the same thing functionally, but that's kind of like reprinting a bunch of antique stamps and trying to convince a stamp collector to buy the reprints because they're a bit cheaper and in better condition than the originals. I think its awesome that people are re-engineeering Amiga clones with modern parts. There's no way in hell you'll ever see me buying one though.
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Also, minimig is basically a 14mhz A500, is it not?
I dont want that!
I want something FASTER than my A1200 68030/50/64MB.
Plus I have yet to hear about the compatibility of minimig with original games, etc.
Still waiting for a review.
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da9000 wrote:
PS. I'm with Murple on the "open sourced" SD/FF, and agree fully with the "don't care about RoHS/production pieces" attitude on these things. If it's meant for homebrew, then it doesn't matter. I have plenty of DB25 cable to tear apart for getting my DB23 (just pull 2 pins out :) And also, sadly, AmigaKit is right about *why* SD/FFs aren't been made. Jens Schoenfeld gave us the exact same reasons for the lack of SD/FF hardware.
Im researching the CoCo vs Amiga RGB and considering buying one of these. I'll have to open it up and look at it when I get it, then maybe I'll try using my (admittedly almost nonexistent) electronics skills to see if I can build a more Amiga friendly version.
A torn apart DB25 might work, but theres got to be a way to scavenge DB23 connectors from old monitor cables, etc.
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vic20owner wrote:
Also, minimig is basically a 14mhz A500, is it not?
No it's not, it's a 7MHz OCS A1000/A2000/A500! (for the timebeing.)
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alexh wrote:
The issue is not the ADC (that is effectively 30-bit) but it is the RGB input to the scandoubler which is only 16-bit (5:6:5)
Could you explain that to me? Does it mean that the Amiga RGB port only outputs 16bit color, therefore a maximum of 65536 colors? I thought the OCS/ECS chipset will only ever output 12bit color (4096 color palette), the AGA chipset 18bit color (262144 color palette), and any graphics card solutions will go up to full 24bit color (although they can also do 16bit color). Where does the 16bit come into play?
alexh wrote:
Price is the killer, you HAVE to use off the shelf components to keep the price down. If you are above the $65 (£35) is the "wife acceptable" price point. Anything above that and you have to almost DOUBLE the sale price as you will only sell half as many.
Understandable, unfortunately.
alexh wrote:
MiniMig has a built in Scandoubler, as does Clone-A so a separate scandoubler project is mute at this point.
Granted that they do, but that doesn't really mean anything. They're still not useful to anyone with a real Amiga. What you might have meant is that the "work" has been done, it just needs to be packaged as a stand-alone product? Or am I wrong?
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murple wrote:
Im researching the CoCo vs Amiga RGB and considering buying
Please do let us know what you find out. I'm also very interested in an external scandoubler that can possibly be duplicated. I found the Averlogic chips for very cheap (only a couple bucks each I think)
murple wrote:
get it, then maybe I'll try using my (admittedly almost nonexistent) electronics skills to see if I can build a more Amiga friendly version.
No expert myself, but I'm sure I and others can help. As evidenced already, there are a bunch of really talented hardware guys on these forums.
Also, I think the two biggest "Amiga specific" features are a de-interlacer (the most difficult part of a SD/FF it seems) and secondly the "31Khz or higher mode detection passthrough" functionality, so any VGA-capable modes are passed through and not up-converted.
murple wrote:
A torn apart DB25 might work, but theres got to be a way to scavenge DB23 connectors from old monitor cables, etc.
Surely that's better, but I meant it for the case when we don't have a dead monitor or cable :) I've used the technique many times myself. In fact, last night as I was trying to revive my dead migy, I had to make a DB9 VGA to DB15 VGA converter: one serial cable and one (dead) PeeCee graphics card slaughtered :)
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vic20owner wrote:
Also, minimig is basically a 14mhz A500, is it not?
I want something FASTER than my A1200 68030/50/64MB.
It's 7 MHz Amiga (thus compatible). And maybe someone feels like doing a faster version.
But this is also a race against decaying hardware. At some point in time there won't be any hardware to compare against for purpose of reverese engineering.
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I will answer [part of] my own questions in detail (corrections may be necessary), for further future reference:
While reading this thread:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18247
I stumbled upon MskoDestny's comments which are the exact answers I was looking for:
Those digital signals only give you 4-bit color (for attaching to a CGA monitor). Only way to get the full color resolution is to use an ADC on the analog RGB signals, make a video slot scandoubler or make something that clips on to the appropriate chips.
The added ADC of the analog solution pushes you over what makes sense for a $100 product unless you're willing to order the parts in sufficient quantity (which of course requires capital). A digital solution is complicated by the fact that no one manufacturers 5V DRAM chips anymore (well at least none that I've come across) and SRAM is kind of expensive for the quantities you need. Since AGA has 24-bits worth of video signal it's not a trivial number of signals to convert (though the fact that it's not a bidirectional signal probably allows for cheasier solutions).
So the digital RGB outputs (on the DB23 RGB port) are only 4bit (16 colors), and thus pretty much useless :(
As mentioned before the options are:
1) Internal Video Slot solution (occupies slot, much like CyberVision 64/3D, has access to best quality/full OCS+ECS/AGA 12/24bit DIGITAL signals, is problematic since not all video slots are the same, and some Amiga models don't even have one, also a pain since the machine has to be opened up)
2) Internal Chip Hijack solution (attaches on top of Alice or appropriate chip and thus allows an empty video slot, much like some DCE solutions, has access to best quality/full OCS+ECS/AGA 12/24bit DIGITAL signals, is problematic since different Amiga models have different video chips, also a pain since the machine has to be opened up and furthermore one has to much around with the delicate circuitboard components)
3) External Analog To Digital solution (easily attaches externally to the RGB port and is thus the most "universal" solution, has access to the "not so best" quality OCS+ECS/AGA 12/24bit *ANALOG* signals)
Clearly for the best quality solutions 1 and 2 are the right choices. Clearly for the most trouble-free and most compatibility solution 3 is the right choice.
One thought that I had in mind is that even though the 3rd solution doesn't give the best results, an improvement would be to use the digital RGB signals to "dynamically calibrate" the ADC circuits. In other words, when the ADC samples a single RGB pixel value as 23,45,9 it can then compare the lowest 4 bits of each component to the digital RGB values, and do some fancy "auto-calibration" or even "auto-error-correction" (this would only work with component values less than 16 due to only having 4bits per component from the digital RGB lines).
EDIT:
Now that I read the quote again, I'm not 100% sure if the 4bits digital output pertains to each RGB component. Anybody have a link to someplace documenting the digital RGB outputs?
Also, when AlexH said that the ADC is only 16bits, I think he means that the ADC might sample at 10bits per component, but will only output 5 or 6 bits per component (depending on if it's 5:6:5 or 5:5:6, etc). Can you verify this AlexH? Thanks
EDIT2:
And now I will fully answer my questions.
Looking at the following schematic by Ian Stedman: http://www.ianstedman.co.uk/Downloads/scandoubler.png and looking at the AL250 chip, one can see what AlexH is referring to as the "16bit limit": it's those pins named VDIN[0-15]. The input to the scandoubler piece (AL250) is limited to 16bit. BLAH! Hopefully a replacement for the AL250 is easy to find.
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I'm selling a scan doubler/flicker fixer for A1200/A4000 on ebay at the moment!
link (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/A1200-A4000-Internal-Scandoubler-Flicker-Fixer_W0QQitemZ250148948131QQihZ015QQcategoryZ98928QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
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alexh wrote:
MiniMig has a built in Scandoubler, as does Clone-A so a separate scandoubler project is mute at this point.
Moot. Not Mute - Moot.
MOOT!
Sorry, pet hate - it really gets my back up.
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does anyone know which Scan doubler Flicker Fixer is Video Toaster compatible besides ToastScan? :-?
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Robbie wrote:
I'm selling a scan doubler/flicker fixer for A1200/A4000 on ebay at the moment!
link (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/A1200-A4000-Internal-Scandoubler-Flicker-Fixer_W0QQitemZ250148948131QQihZ015QQcategoryZ98928QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
I bought one of the same kind recently. It will technically work in a 1200, but... be warned. If you keep your Amiga in its original case , the place where this board clips on is right under the hard drive. You can't fit the hard drive in the case if you use this flicker fixer... at least, not in its normal location. I'm still looking for a way to fit it in there because I don't want to towerize my 1200.
If you have a towerized 1200 (or 4000) or can rearrange where your hard drive fits (or if youre using a flash to IDE thing) it gives OK video. On my VGA monitor it has some slightly annoying vertical lines, but maybe thats just the LCD monitor I'm using. When I have time to figure out how the hell to fit both the flicker fixer and hard drive in my 1200, I'm gonna try it on a non-LCD monitor.
If I cant figure out how to fit it all in there, I'll be selling one too haha.
I'd really really like to get a better model (preferably external) that can be used on more kinds of Amigas. Preferably with a clearer display too.
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murple wrote:
Robbie wrote:
I'm selling a scan doubler/flicker fixer for A1200/A4000 on ebay at the moment!
link (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/A1200-A4000-Internal-Scandoubler-Flicker-Fixer_W0QQitemZ250148948131QQihZ015QQcategoryZ98928QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
I bought one of the same kind recently. It will technically work in a 1200, but... be warned. If you keep your Amiga in its original case , the place where this board clips on is right under the hard drive. You can't fit the hard drive in the case if you use this flicker fixer... at least, not in its normal location. I'm still looking for a way to fit it in there because I don't want to towerize my 1200.
If you have a towerized 1200 (or 4000) or can rearrange where your hard drive fits (or if youre using a flash to IDE thing) it gives OK video. On my VGA monitor it has some slightly annoying vertical lines, but maybe thats just the LCD monitor I'm using. When I have time to figure out how the hell to fit both the flicker fixer and hard drive in my 1200, I'm gonna try it on a non-LCD monitor.
If I cant figure out how to fit it all in there, I'll be selling one too haha.
I'd really really like to get a better model (preferably external) that can be used on more kinds of Amigas. Preferably with a clearer display too.
It can be done... IIRC, the drive will sit right on the internal metal shielding, and you just eliminate the stock drive caddy. I had the DCE internal SD/FF, IDE-Fix "Express" module, and IDE drive all inside the stock casing. (All those hacks gave my A1200 a real "ghetto-rig" feel, LOL.)
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murple wrote:
You can't fit the hard drive in the case if you use this flicker fixer... at least, not in its normal location. I'm still looking for a way to fit it in there because I don't want to towerize my 1200.
you can always use CF card as harddrive 8-)
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It can be done... IIRC, the drive will sit right on the internal metal shielding, and you just eliminate the stock drive caddy. I had the DCE internal SD/FF, IDE-Fix "Express" module, and IDE drive all inside the stock casing. (All those hacks gave my A1200 a real "ghetto-rig" feel, LOL.)
The shielding actually wont fit either. I mean, I was able to get it on there (after covering the bottom of the shield with electrical tape to prevent shorts) but it was bulging up and I'm afraid that might bend the circuit board over time.
I think I'll try getting a longer IDE cable and putting it off on the side somewhere.
The flash IDE is an idea, but I need to read more about how long those drives actually last. Sounds like theyve got a kinda short lifespan... hundreds of thousands of writes. Sounds like a lot, but if you think about it, its really not that much.
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maybe you would like to get this toastscan scandoubler off ebay:
edit:nevermind, already somebody bought it :lol: