Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: OhioAmiga on May 22, 2012, 10:46:44 PM
-
http://ultimateppc.nl/index.php
I know I want one already!
-
http://ultimateppc.nl/index.php
I know I want one already!
"We will work actively with Haage & Partner and any other developer to get these OSes supported..."
Huh?
What about Hyperion, the MorphOS development team, etc.
No CPU is specifically named.
Why would you use a 68040?
I wouldn't count on this getting produced.
-
What, no Natami support?
-
Looks interesting. I still think i prefer MikeJ's arcade better though. Whether i buy one depends on cost.
-
Beyond cool...
I hope this sees light of day.
-
call me boring or stupid if you like, but if someone ported to http://www.reghardware.com/2012/05/22/chip_maker_via_outs_49_dollar_raspberry_pi_alike/ ... they would actually have a chance to sell more then a dozen copies... (and it would run faster)
TomUK
-
call me boring or stupid if you like, but if someone ported to http://www.reghardware.com/2012/05/22/chip_maker_via_outs_49_dollar_raspberry_pi_alike/ ... they would actually have a chance to sell more then a dozen copies... (and it would run faster)
An 800MHz ARM running PowerPC software in emulation is going to outperform an actual PowerPC running at 1.1GHz? Hell, they even have the same speed memory, it's not like the PPC accelerator is going to be cache-starved or anything. (Admittedly, anything on the Zorro III bus is going to be a bottleneck, but I still can't see general execution speed being outperformed by a slower chip running an emulator.)
-
This is really what I've been wanting to happen. A new PPC board that hopefully has a cost that doesn't make me feel like I'm being raped by the entire Amiga community.
Though I see that it's coming with a 2D video card with DVI? Out of curiosity, and I'm asking this 'cause I don't know whether it would be possible, or if I'm just dreaming.... but weren't the 3Dfx drivers open sourced for Linux a very very very long time ago? And I'm guessing that's why there ever were 3D drivers for the Amiga that works with the Voodoo cards. But would it be possible to reverse engineer the hardware based on the software drivers?
I don't know if anything like that has ever been attempted, but wouldn't it be incredibly awesome to get the Voodoo chipset on this? That would really make it the UltimatePPC.
slaapliedje
-
NOW this is what I want my hands on. Now if this actually becomes a reality I will sell my A1200 and buy an A4000 instead. This proves even more that A4000 is way superior over A1200. But I like to own an Amiga 4000D :D :D I like the A4000D way more than A4000T.
-
Anj A600 or A1200 addition would be a major boon if anything. Not many of us are lucky enough to own a 3000 or 4000.
-
I managed to get one on eBay. Almost had a second one, but well... see this thread;
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=61682
slaapliedje
-
That...would be awesome!
-
To be honest i am reluctant to show enthusism with the NatAmi recently being cancelled. I was so enthusiastic about the NatAmi but now i'm gutted. I don't want another emotional rollercoaster ride. What kind of guarantees can they give this will be released?
-
Will these only fit in Towered versions of the A3000 and A4000 or desktop versions as well?
-
Hot damn, this would be cool to have. Not holding my breath, but hope to see progress (and a release?) in the coming months!
-
I can't handle more vaporware :(
-
To be honest i am reluctant to show enthusism with the NatAmi recently being cancelled. I was so enthusiastic about the NatAmi but now i'm gutted. I don't want another emotional rollercoaster ride. What kind of guarantees can they give this will be released?
Is the Natami cancelled? What is your source? There is nothing on their webpage.
-
Not sure if this is another IWin/ACK/Troika (aka deliberate fake) or another ColdFire, BoXer,Brainstormer .... (aka someone completly out of his depths).
-
Is the Natami cancelled? What is your source? There is nothing on their webpage.
NatAmi is officially dead.
-
Source, please...
-
Not sure if this is another IWin/ACK/Troika (aka deliberate fake) or another ColdFire, BoXer,Brainstormer .... (aka someone completly out of his depths).
It is definitely not fake. We waited with the announcement for months because we wanted to get the prototype boards up to a decent state before actually bringing the news to the community. As a long time Amiga fan I've been hurt by all the false news from Commodore and subsequent announcements by other parties.
We strongly believe we will be able to ship this to all enthusiasts, which will not be easy (or it would have been done a long time ago) but we're sure we can do it.
It should fit in any 3000 or 4000, desktop, tower or converted as the board has the same physical size as an A3640.
MorphOS support etc. would be super. We will try to be as open as possible to allow smart people to boot whatever they can get running on the PowerPC.
-
It is definitely not fake. We waited with the announcement for months because we wanted to get the prototype boards up to a decent state before actually bringing the news to the community. As a long time Amiga fan I've been hurt by all the false news from Commodore and subsequent announcements by other parties.
We strongly believe we will be able to ship this to all enthusiasts, which will not be easy (or it would have been done a long time ago) but we're sure we can do it.
It should fit in any 3000 or 4000, desktop, tower or converted as the board has the same physical size as an A3640.
MorphOS support etc. would be super. We will try to be as open as possible to allow smart people to boot whatever they can get running on the PowerPC.
Hi Gideon (it's you isn't it?)
Great news there... ;)
Loriano
-
As a happy 1541U (a project I had my doubts about) user I don't doubt this project for a second. Seems like a really nice board for people with big box Amigas.
-
Not sure if this is another IWin/ACK/Troika (aka deliberate fake) or another ColdFire, BoXer,Brainstormer .... (aka someone completly out of his depths).
Amiga OS 68k has no need for PPC, and for the PPC OS:s the old 68k Amiga HW is a burden rather than a possibility. It's PowerUP all over again, 20 years after the era where something like PowerUP would have made sense (and probably without PowerUP/WarpUP as well...?)
-
Amiga OS 68k has no need for PPC, and for the PPC OS:s the old 68k Amiga HW is a burden rather than a possibility. It's PowerUP all over again, 20 years after the era where something like PowerUP would have made sense (and probably without PowerUP/WarpUP as well...?)
But having the PowerPC on the board brings a lot of peripherals to the "classic side" such as USB, SATA and network. You can choose to never use the PowerPC but just enjoy the expansions...
-
MorphOS support etc. would be super.
I don't see how this could be happening though, considering we've pretty much given up the classic support. For instance PowerUP MorphOS is still available for download but isn't actively developed.
Why would you want to talk to Haage&Partner btw? All they did was screw everyone over left&right, and as far as I can tell they haven't had anything to do with amiga for ages.
-
I don't see how this could be happening though, considering we've pretty much given up the classic support. For instance PowerUP MorphOS is still available for download but isn't actively developed.
Why would you want to talk to Haage&Partner btw? All they did was screw everyone over left&right, and as far as I can tell they haven't had anything to do with amiga for ages.
It is so unclear who is doing what nowadays ;-)
Maybe the best statement is that we "will work and support everyone how wants to get something up and running on the PowerPC" and I have updated the relevant FAQ on the site to reflect that.
-
I wouldn't count on this getting produced.
At least Gideon has a proven track record of getting stuff out. (1541 ultimate / 1541 ultimate II).
In my books, this one has a much better chance of getting produced than most other hobbyist based Amiga peripherals.. Naturally only time will tell, so I'll just wait and see once again. :-)
-
I have some queries:
Are the 68K and PPC not directly connected? It seems the PPC is a quite seperate entity. This means that it can't access the Amiga's chipset, surely? How are you communicating between the two CPUs? If you're using dual-ported RAM, how will you keep cache coherency?
It seems to me that this is a 68040 card with a PPC slapped on the side, which is great and impressive, but how do you actually use it? Is it like putting an SBC in a normal Amiga (i.e. a completely seperate computer which happens to be in the same tower)?
Without meaning any disrespect to the developers, given the complexity of the project, I'll believe it when I see it, and there's no way I'd pre-order one.... but I wish you all the best with it.
-
@Kesa, I wasn't aware that NatAmi was cancelled, where did you hear/rea this?
Robert
-
But having the PowerPC on the board brings a lot of peripherals to the "classic side" such as USB, SATA and network. You can choose to never use the PowerPC but just enjoy the expansions...
I'm not sure I understand; the SATA, USB and network is part of the PPC SoC, meaning you would have some kind of PPC OS (some kind of custom Linux?) transparently running on it to handle all this in the background, and then "relay" the data to the Amiga 68k side in some way? To me it sounds a bit expensive and over complicated way to get this kind of peripheral connectivity? You are using a FPGA, probably to "glue" it all togehter, but wouldn't it be better to simply "glue" some PCI-interface to the 68k and simply connect some standard controllers to this? Or perhaps even having the peripheral controllers inside the FPGA entirely?
As for the PPC part (as a "desktop" CPU, beyond being a "peripheral devices master controller") - I'm far from being the experts you are in these matters (I'm merely a user, so please forgive my ignorance), but from what I have read online, the FPU in e500/e500v2 is incompatible with the ones we have been using (in the e300, the e600, the PPC4xx, the PPC7xx and the PPC970 for that matter), meaning it isn't really suitable for MorphOS/OS4/PowerUP/WarpUP and their existing software base?
And I'm sure a faster 68k would be preferred by most classic users, otherwise it would be a *down-grade* for most people...?
-
To be honest i am reluctant to show enthusism with the NatAmi recently being cancelled.
The Natami was canceled?!!! Their website doesn't show anything about that. Is it true? Please say it isn't so...
-
I have some queries:
Are the 68K and PPC not directly connected? It seems the PPC is a quite seperate entity. This means that it can't access the Amiga's chipset, surely? How are you communicating between the two CPUs? If you're using dual-ported RAM, how will you keep cache coherency?
It seems to me that this is a 68040 card with a PPC slapped on the side, which is great and impressive, but how do you actually use it? Is it like putting an SBC in a normal Amiga (i.e. a completely seperate computer which happens to be in the same tower)?
Without meaning any disrespect to the developers, given the complexity of the project, I'll believe it when I see it, and there's no way I'd pre-order one.... but I wish you all the best with it.
The PowerPC and 68040 are not directly connected and both have their own memory... essentially the UltimatePPC is two boards if you want to look at it like that and different in architecture from the CyberstormPPC. Both CPU's have their own bus and are connected together through the FPGA where we map the embedded devices in the PowerPC chip to the 68040 side. Having both CPU's access the main Amiga's devices will introduce cache coherency issues just as is the case with the CyberstormPPC cards.
When running a Classic OS the PowerPC chip provides the add-on devices (SATA, USB, ...) and the CPU core could be halted, run Linux, you name it.
And as the PowerPC chip is so much faster at emulating an 68000 than any 68000 can be, there is no point in keeping the 68040 running when you're running a PowerPC OS (eg. Linux, etc.) on your classic Amiga. In this mode it would run in a similar fashion as the Cyberstorm cards (but faster) and just do any 68000 stuff using JIT.
We understand you're skeptical - it is a complex card. Which is why we only announced it after we made sure we had the most essential parts running on our prototypes. We will surely demo the card before you can order it...
-
I'm not sure I understand; the SATA, USB and network is part of the PPC SoC, meaning you would have some kind of PPC OS (some kind of custom Linux?) transparently running on it to handle all this in the background, and then "relay" the data to the Amiga 68k side in some way? To me it sounds a bit expensive and over complicated way to get this kind of peripheral connectivity? You are using a FPGA, probably to "glue" it all togehter, but wouldn't it be better to simply "glue" some PCI-interface to the 68k and simply connect some standard controllers to this? Or perhaps even having the peripheral controllers inside the FPGA entirely?
The embedded devices in the P1013 share the same package but can be used externally without running an OS on the PowerPC (e500v2) CPU core.
-
@mousehouse
You should start making the most basic part (040+128MB ram) working. Then people will start to believe you.
Does the PPC part have access to Amiga memory? I mean chipram, amiga custom chips... if that's the case you could disable 040 and use a JIT as it will be much faster.
AROS-PPC may be a good OS for your PPC part.
Jason McMullan has said that if somebody gives him a Mac Mini he would be willing to add MorphOS compatibility to AROS-PPC.
IIRC WarpOS/PowerUp require to share some memory so you may need to emulate 040 to make them work.
-
Jason McMullan has said that if somebody gives him a Mac Mini he would be willing to add MorphOS compatibility to AROS-PPC.
Oh. :lol:
BTW, please define "MorphOS compatibility"...?
:)
-
@mousehouse
You should start making the most basic part (040+128MB ram) working. Then people will start to believe you.
Which is exactly what we're doing ;-)
-
To be honest i am reluctant to show enthusism with the NatAmi recently being cancelled. I was so enthusiastic about the NatAmi but now i'm gutted. I don't want another emotional rollercoaster ride. What kind of guarantees can they give this will be released?
Cancelled? Thomas is off working on it alone a bit more but he's been doing that every few months thoughout the project anyway. It's no more real but certainly not cancelled.
All the bitching and whining around it is just that the other project members were hoping to be able to contribute to the AHDL side of building up the (S)AGA side of things and they aren't.
None of that affects it development though, that's always been 100% Thomas driven and subject to whatever else is happening in his work/love/personal/hobby/etc life.
When you say cancelled there's still 7 working developer boards with 68060s, some of them clocked to within an inch of 100Mhz, that people are using to write test cases and PCI/usb/network drivers. That's far from cancelled, it's just a huge job and no-one has a clue when it will become commercially available.
Andy
-
No, Natami is not canceled. Claudio thought it would be OK to give a small update to explain why progress updates are slow and what is currently happening with the project. Judging by the reactions and the public panicking, I can now conclude that it would have been better to have shut up instead.
-
And as the PowerPC chip is so much faster at emulating an 68000 than any 68000 can be, there is no point in keeping the 68040 running when you're running a PowerPC OS (eg. Linux, etc.) on your classic Amiga. In this mode it would run in a similar fashion as the Cyberstorm cards (but faster) and just do any 68000 stuff using JIT.
What is the point of the 040 then? Why not include a JIT in rom?
Also an A2000 CPU slot version would make me very happy.
-
...chip_maker_via_outs_49_dollar_raspberry_pi_alike...
Im amazed that no one has made similar simple boards around PPC yet...
+ we would not need to recompile whole codebase with the PPC on board
-
NO A1200 VERSION ???? thats a big mistake ....
if they want to make money out of this venture they MUST make a a1200
version ..
my opinion ..
-
Why limit the 68K side to only 128M ram? memory is cheap nowdays
-
My mistake. The NatAmi is not cancelled. Poor choice of words.
I thought it was on the verge of being released like the x1000 and the FPGA Arcade and i didn't realise how far away it really is to being released.
-
My mistake. The NatAmi is not cancelled. Poor choice of words.
I thought it was on the verge of being released like the x1000 and the FPGA Arcade and i didn't realise how far away it really is to being released.
(Sorry for the OT discussion)
There are still a lot of things to do before a solid release candidate. Basic things like a full DMA arbiter, a finished PCI subsystem, a bug-free CF interface, better compatibility with peripherals, bug-free AGA, monitor files for the SAGA screenmodes etc.
There will also be a new mainboard revision with some stability fixes.
These are the things that are taking time, and preventing public sales atm. Not "feature creep" or fancy stuff, but just down to earth stability and compatibility-related things that decides if the system is ready for everyday usage. Which do take time when working on a hobby basis.
Thomas has always been a no-bull**** guy, and no matter what pipe-dreams people have amused themselves with on forums, his focus has been none other than getting a basic and stable system up with a basic feature set.
-
I say let Thomas work in piece and quiet, "Natami" will see the light of day eventually :)
And what comes to UltimatePPC I really hope they consider it also for A1200...
-
I assume the lack of the A1200 version is down to the non-availability of lead free A1200 connectors.
-
Lead or non-lead, I don't care. Just put a sticker "non-leaded" for the authorities/nitpickers ;)
-
"some people announce a very ambitious implementation of some already obsolete technology that will really bring Amiga back, later turns out to be a scam"
history_of_amiga_since_1994.txt
-
Why limit the 68K side to only 128M ram?
The CPU slot maxes at 128MB.
It's the same with all CPU slot accelerators (Cyberstorm etc).
-
Which is where A1200 has the advantage can have much more then 128mb via the expansion slot :)
-
The CPU slot maxes at 128MB.
But is that really a limitation? The 68040 can access 4GB of physical memory; if the fastram is on the accelerator board then the limitations of the CPU slot is irrelevant. All access to chipram and chipset/peripherals will be routed through the CPU slot to the addressable memory space.
-
Gotta admit an a1200 version seems like a more obvious option - lets face it there are more 1200s in use out there and more 1200s wanting an upgrade path. You only have to look at the popularity of the new ACA accelerators from indivision. The relatively small quantities of this accellerator for the big box amigas is most likely going to mean a high pricetag.
Let me know when someone brings out a new line of PPC accellerators for the 1200 series.
N ...
-
The relatively small quantities of this accellerator for the big box amigas is most likely going to mean a high pricetag.
more or less the price of a 15 years old used CSPPC.
-
But is that really a limitation? The 68040 can access 4GB of physical memory; if the fastram is on the accelerator board then the limitations of the CPU slot is irrelevant. All access to chipram and chipset/peripherals will be routed through the CPU slot to the addressable memory space.
Yeah, the limit on ram is going to be how much free address space you can get. You wouldn't be able to put ram in the first 16mb, but zorro 3 cards would also cause you to lose more ram.
-
Yeah, the limit on ram is going to be how much free address space you can get. You wouldn't be able to put ram in the first 16mb, but zorro 3 cards would also cause you to lose more ram.
That's what you have address decoders for. For example, let's say you have 2GB RAM in the address space 2GB-4GB - how would that cause a problem for zorro 3 cards when the address space is inaccessible via the CPU slot?
As I said, the accelerator can access the chipset just fine, and will have its own fastmem locally which is _not_ limited to 128MB.
-
beautiful project, but since there is no support from os4, morphos nor warpup or powerup soultion holders respectively i wonde3r why the choice fell for ppc? if starting clean from the scratch wouldnt some other processor choice be more promissing? say, even like running 68k emulation on that?
-
But is that really a limitation?
It is if you wish to DMA to the memory via the system bus. If you're happy with using a temporary DMA buffer and copying when needed then adding extra memory is no problem.
-
What if they use 128mb as the maximum buffer between the CPU card and Amiga, while letting the CPU card go freely up to the max 4GB? In theory, it sounds like it should work. Or else, they could find someone to make a piggyback/passthrough card for Buster to override the limitation? Or is it more complicated than just Buster, meaning its an inherent architecture limit?
-
The CPU slot maxes at 128MB.
It's the same with all CPU slot accelerators (Cyberstorm etc).
I seem to remember about 2GB of reserved address space in the A3000T memory map. And what is max that Zorro3 has defined? I don't remember now. Anyway, that PPC can surely address way more memory than what was ever defined by Commodore. What this more likely is, is a PPC system design with address space assigned to the 040 and to the Amiga motherboard.
-
beautiful project, but since there is no support from os4, morphos nor warpup or powerup soultion holders respectively i wonde3r why the choice fell for ppc? if starting clean from the scratch wouldnt some other processor choice be more promissing?
A good point, maybe something like the i.MX535 (http://cache.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/data_sheet/IMX53CEC.pdf)! :) Would offer a lot of more, for a lot less, with an extremely low energy/heat profile! I'm sure there would be a way to bolt on the old Amiga HW to it somehow... :)
-
talking memory ..i got 100 meg fast ram ..most programs dont make a dent in it ..maybe heretic which takes 10 meg fast ram just to load it seems ...only memory problem the amiga has is the limit of 2 meg chip memory ...nice wallpaper an workbench an most of it is gone ..thats why i still hold out an hope for natami ..if i remember correctley i saw a screenshot of natami with heaps of chipram an fast ram showing ..cant see a hardware solution on a a1200 happening ..but i wonder why we cant have a software program which redirects chip to fast even if we use double the memory i think most of use have heaps fast ram to use ..
-
It is if you wish to DMA to the memory via the system bus. If you're happy with using a temporary DMA buffer and copying when needed then adding extra memory is no problem.
I'm not convinced there is a limit, the accelerator slot must have a 32bit bus. There are however limitations in kickstart for memory sizing, but you don't need to use that.
-
http://ultimateppc.nl/index.php
I know I want one already!
Looks really good. I would like send them an email..but could not find one listed
on the website..
Rich
-
Looks really good. I would like send them an email..but could not find one listed
on the website..
Rich
It is http://ultimateppc.nl/support.php
-
I'm not convinced there is a limit, the accelerator slot must have a 32bit bus. There are however limitations in kickstart for memory sizing, but you don't need to use that.
Unless it multiplexes address and data, 32 data lines does not necessarily imply 32 address lines...
-
Great looking project which I hope makes it to market.
-
Well, I'm glad that they are starting with the big box amigas as there are plenty of expansion options for the 1200s :p
Also, because I have one :D
-
Oh. :lol:
BTW, please define "MorphOS compatibility"...?
:)
"Compatality" - AROS PPC (hosted and/or native) being able to run MorphOS applications.
Initial compatibility would be limited to applications/tools shipped with MorphOS.
Phase 1: Able to run MorphOS DOS CLI applications
Phase 2: Able to run MorphOS Intuition applications
Phase 3: Able to run MorphOS MUI applications
Phase 4: Third-party MorphOS application compatibility.
This should allow better code sharing between MorphOS and AROS, ultimately allowing MorphOS to use the AROS code base to start a transition to other architectures, as the PowerPC comes to an end-of-life.
-
No 68040 please. After 10 years spent to source 68060 boards for my amigas, i won't go back to 68040 even for a PPC addon.
And indeed, an A1200 version is mandatory here for success of this board.
-
Interesting if cheap and if it can run Amiga OS 4.x. If it cost more than a SAM then I don't see the point, doing a 68060 board will be better. Kamel
-
If this makes it out with decent enough driver support in place and a reasonable price tag I'll probably buy one, and I'm a very casual Amiga user. I primarily want it for the ethernet, then the graphics. I don't actually use the Amigas I've acquired because I have no way to easily get new software on to them, the network should solve that. The 68040 is a nice upgrade for my 4000D/030 too. All the other features are a nice bonus.
I've thought about expanding my Amigas but the thought of trying to track down a pile of rare, old, and overpriced bits puts me off, so this is great.
The PPC is probably what I would be least interested in, but it's nice to have. There's no way I'll every pay to be an OS4 or MorphOS user as it doesn't interest me enough. This would be a great card to port AROS too though, and I'd certainly tinker with that setup.
For a good laugh what I'd really love to see is a solution like this targeting the A1000. It would be so awesome that a computer from 1985 could do all these awesome things. I'd buy that in a second.
-
Would love to buy one for my A4000D. I love OS4.1 but it runs really slow on my A1200T and I am in the position of do I go with a Sam or wait for something else. Truly, I'd prefer to use my mediator equipped A4000D over the A1200T but I simply can't due to lack of a PPC for the machine.
I also understand you don't have OS4.x compatibility atm, but hopefully that would come. Finally, I would love to have all the extras you describe there; USB, Video, etc...
I agree an 060 or an A1200 version would be nice but I'd be happy with the current spec since my A4000D is what is lacking extras ATM.
-
@thread
the FPU in e500/e500v2 is incompatible with the ones we have been using (in the e300, the e600, the PPC4xx, the PPC7xx and the PPC970 for that matter), meaning it isn't really suitable for MorphOS/OS4/PowerUP/WarpUP and their existing software base?
"addition of double precision floating point support. this is not compatible with any other PowerPC floating point unit, and in fact the instruction set overlaps with string and altivec instructions as well."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC_e500#e500v2
-
Sounds like a modern BlizzardPPC, which I bought back in the day for
$1100USD in 1997-8? and sold recently for $700USD. Today, I would expect to purchase something like this for $700. I have 2 A3000s and 3 A4000s that could use it. If it is "real", it would be pretty cool. Even with a decent computing background, not understanding why there's a 68040 on board other than to be basically electrically compatible with traditional ami hardware. (if the 680x0 can be abstracted as I'm hearing)... If it is the case that an abstracted 680x0 [however implemented] can run native amiga apps and access chipram and such, than this would be an amazing "piece of kit"
-
Hate to be a pessimist, but...
Lets all watch this for 2 years. If after endless hype and bull**** there is still no buy it now on their main page, its bull****.
Just sayin...
What I'd really like is an accelerator with a 68060 at 90 or 100mhz with a 2ghz power pc processor for morph/os4. That would be something I wouldn't even think about buying, I would just click buy it now. The fact that no one has realized thats what many amiga fans want/need is kind of sad...
Steven
-
We will try to be as open as possible to allow smart people to boot whatever they can get running on the PowerPC.
I've just been reading up on the included CPU (QoriQ P1013 e500v2). It does have an FPU, but it's incompatible to pretty much any other PowerPC FPU out there (Power ISA).
TL;DR: Every binary using FPU needs to be recompiled to run on this CPU.
This will definitely create huge challenges if you ever attempt to run any existing PowerUP, WarpUP, MorphOS or OS4 binaries.
-
Is there any plan to make this able to soft-kick custom bootroms? Somehow make it work with BlizKick like the DENEB? That was my favorite feature of the DENEB....honestly I rarely used the USB. :)
Good luck bringing this to market dudes! Any naysaying is justifiable...Amiga fans have been left in the lurch quite a few times.
-
Would it run os4?
-
At this point, I'd rather have a PowerPC card for the FPGA Arcade, and yes, the incompatible FPU pretty much renders the UltimatePPC useless as a CSPPC substitute.
-
I've just been reading up on the included CPU (QoriQ P1013 e500v2). It does have an FPU, but it's incompatible to pretty much any other PowerPC FPU out there (Power ISA).
TL;DR: Every binary using FPU needs to be recompiled to run on this CPU.
This will definitely create huge challenges if you ever attempt to run any existing PowerUP, WarpUP, MorphOS or OS4 binaries.
Challenges yes but not huge challenges, unless the entire program/library is written in PPC assembler. I wonder why they went with that particular CPU though if they knew that it has these issues. Maybe they only found as out they were developing it or they just don't view it as worth the tradeoff to use another another CPU. If a compatible CPU costs more, or doesn't run as fast then it might not be worth using it.
-
Unless it multiplexes address and data, 32 data lines does not necessarily imply 32 address lines...
I haven't been able to find pinouts via google of the slot, but I don't believe they are multiplexed. There are 200 pins, plenty to allow for 32 data & 32 address lines.
If the CPU slot only has enough address lines for 256mb then it wouldn't be able to access 256mb ram plus chipset and chipram & ZorRAM is 256mb. So I don't think any 256mb limit is due to hardware.
Using an embedded powerpc that is cut down in many ways, not just fpu, is disappointing.
-
Challenges yes but not huge challenges
Yes, a *huge* challenge! Adapting and porting the OS and all applications for this new platform (yes, you could consider this a platform change) and then *keep* this fork (of some 100 users or so) supported in parallel in the future, will be a big undertaking. And if you are about to consider this ISA-change anyway, you should as well consifering changing to some better, faster, future-proof ISA like the x86 (or ARM even).
Changing the PPC CPU in the design would be a far less of a challange...
-
Yes, a *huge* challenge! Adapting and porting the OS and all applications for this new platform (yes, you could consider this a platform change) and then *keep* this fork (of some 100 users or so) supported in parallel in the future, will be a big undertaking. And if you are about to consider this ISA-change anyway, you should as well consifering changing to some better, faster, future-proof ISA like the x86 (or ARM even).
Changing the PPC CPU in the design would be a far less of a challange...
I was responding to Piru's comment about having to recompile software. Since I've developed projects across 4 platforms simultaneously I know that it really is pretty simple even where you're having to mix 4 different compilation environments and different instruction sets.
A huge challenge would be to get existing software running that was targeted at an incompatible ISA, that ISN'T what I was referring too.
Andy
-
Challenges yes but not huge challenges, unless the entire program/library is written in PPC assembler.
I was talking about existing binaries of which you don't have source code for (for whatever reason) and thus cannot recompile.
-
If people are this talented making PPC boards in their apartment with huge plans why not make a proper Micro-ATX/Mini-ITX Amiga clone with socket for 060 or 040 and 1 or 5 Zorro-slots.
If these guys can make this card in time for december 2012 making an Amiga mobo would take 6 months tops. Would make more sense also to make a proper 68k computer instead of messy PPC-solutions. If we want to play MP3 on our Amiga we can always just get hardware mp3-player for our serial ports.
Besides nobody plays MP3's anymore, streaming is the new MP3 hoarding so there is no need for PPC muscle and buggy NG Amiga OS that never leaves beta.
-
Besides nobody plays MP3's anymore, streaming is the new MP3 hoarding so there is no need for PPC muscle and buggy NG Amiga OS that never leaves beta.
You think streaming doesn't use compression?
I have news for you: It's typically either mp3, vorbis or aac.
-
You think streaming doesn't use compression?
I have news for you: It's typically either mp3, vorbis or aac.
You just had to point that out did not you?
I mean there is a whole universe out there with things happening all around us but no, you just had to make a post where you explicitly had to point out that I was wrong about something and you where right about something.
Did it make you feel better?!
-
I don't get why some of you have to be so negative.
Yes some projects dies again, so what.
Take joy in those that do materialize, this negativity kills off a lot of good ideas.
-
I take joy in X1000.,.. its only 3000 dollars, but hey, its at least a new Amiga! And it plays Hippo player better than any Amiga in the world!
-
I think its a good idea to point the issues with a project.
-
You just had to point that out did not you?
Sometimes someone says something so stupid you just can't help yourself.
Usually I just leave totally incorrect and illogical "facts" alone, but this was just so mindbogglingly bullshaitty I couldn't do it.
Sorry.
-
Sometimes someone says something so stupid you just can't help yourself.
Usually I just leave totally incorrect and illogical "facts" alone, but this was just so mindbogglingly bullshaitty I couldn't do it.
Sorry.
Can you please get BACK to MorphOS development?
I have a nice Powerbook just waiting for it....
If you have nothing else to do for 3.0, please work on the G5 version (for which you posted screenshots 2 or 4 years ago here).
OK? Leave the exotic HW guys alone or suggest them a better processor option, so they can achieve binary compatibility.
-
You just had to point that out did not you?
I mean there is a whole universe out there with things happening all around us but no, you just had to make a post where you explicitly had to point out that I was wrong about something and you where right about something.
Did it make you feel better?!
Actually I got a sadistic grin reading the above comment :D :D * grin * Can I point out another thing you said wrong?
Actually it is NOT "You just had to point that out did not you?" but "You just had to point that out did you not?"
-
Can you please get BACK to MorphOS development?
I have a nice Powerbook just waiting for it....
No need to get back to it really, I'm doing it all the time. Just couple of minutes ago I improved the file types detected by Ambient for instance (but that'll go to MorphOS 3.1).
Leave the exotic HW guys alone
Hmm. Just because I pointed some mistake in something completely irrelevant I'm now someone harassing "exotic HW guys"? Oh please. If you have something to nag about please be logical about it at least.
As to my other (on topic!) posts in this thread, I think they've been balanced and fair.
or suggest them a better processor option, so they can achieve binary compatibility.
As far as I can tell there are no cheap solutions that provide the necessary features. Even if there were, I doubt they'd be willing to change their design at this point as it'd require quite extensive redesign. Finally, I have no doubts about the technical qualifications of these guys, they clearly know their HW stuff well.
-
No need to get back to it really, I'm doing it all the time. Just couple of minutes ago I improved the file types detected by Ambient for instance (but that'll go to MorphOS 3.1).
So, 3.0 is already in "Code Freeze"? If so, what's preventing the release?
As far as I can tell there are no cheap solutions that provide the necessary features. Even if there were, I doubt they'd be willing to change their design at this point as it'd require quite extensive redesign.
I know almost nothing about HW. But when I saw the design I thought it was a replacement for the old PPC-Blizzard-PPC-like accelerators. 100% compatible (including Binary compatibility for sure) with new features added.
Isn't really possible to achieve that using a modern PPC processor? About CHEAP, what's cheap in the Amiga market nowadays?
-
I was talking about existing binaries of which you don't have source code for (for whatever reason) and thus cannot recompile.
Ah yeah, then we're screwed :) would patching be possible for the PowerPC side? I know people have tried with 68k code but that has complications due to it's mixing of code and data, not to mention self modifying code.
Think I got your original post mixed up about the two things you were talking about.
-
Besides nobody plays MP3's anymore, streaming is the new MP3 hoarding so there is no need for PPC muscle and buggy NG Amiga OS that never leaves beta.
Haha what. *eyes the 52GB of MP3s sitting in c:\music*
And seriously, "muscle?" You can play MP3s on an 040 for God's sake. A G3 Mac can do high bitrates without breaking a sweat.
-
Linux
Are you using Linux to test the design? If so, which distro?
At least Debian appears to be somewhat akward (http://wiki.debian.org/PowerPCSPEPort) to set up.
-
I was talking about existing binaries of which you don't have source code for (for whatever reason) and thus cannot recompile.
You could solve that with dynamic recompiling, but then using a real PPC is not a requirement then. It could use either ARM or Intel depending on cost, heat, performance etc.
The e500mc (32bit+compatible fpu) or e5500 (64bit+double speed compatible fpu) may have been a better choice.
A QorIQ P5020 would be real ultimate.
-
The practical Embedded Linux choice for a Freescale PPC would be Freescale Embedded Linux (Ltib) since this would already have a BSP/Drivers for the Freescale QoriQ P1013.
Are you using Linux to test the design? If so, which distro?
At least Debian appears to be somewhat akward (http://wiki.debian.org/PowerPCSPEPort) to set up.
-
I know almost nothing about HW. But when I saw the design I thought it was a replacement for the old PPC-Blizzard-PPC-like accelerators. 100% compatible (including Binary compatibility for sure) with new features added.
The problems with making a CSPPC clone are many. It was a super complex card with no documentation and the people who know exactly how it worked aren't telling. Also CPU's have changed dramatically since then, the buses aren't even remotely as compatible with 68k as they were then those cards were produced. External local bus masters as we know them are ancient history so it would be a major redesign with lessened compatibility.
Compound that with the fact that getting AOS or MorphOS ported to even a platform closely related to existing ones is pretty much out of the question actually makes alternative CPU's like this an option.
My suggestion would be to run it like a hyper fast 680x0 and forget native code.
The OS is already available.
The apps are available.
Apps designed for it would still run on other Amigas and emulators.
If faster, cheaper SOCs become available you can jump ship without breaking the OS and apps.
A vast number of Amiga users never had a PPC anyway, thus have no investment in compatibility. They all have an investment in 68k.
A 500Mhz+ 68040 would be nothing to scoff at. I'd certainly use one.
-
A 500Mhz+ 68040 would be nothing to scoff at. I'd certainly use one.
Just for curiosity, Winuae running on a modern i7 is "how fast"? Like how many MHZs when emulating a 040?
-
An 800MHz ARM running PowerPC software in emulation is going to outperform an actual PowerPC running at 1.1GHz? Hell, they even have the same speed memory, it's not like the PPC accelerator is going to be cache-starved or anything. (Admittedly, anything on the Zorro III bus is going to be a bottleneck, but I still can't see general execution speed being outperformed by a slower chip running an emulator.)
heh, I didn't say emulate, I said port :) Me bad, I should have been more complete tbh: I mean, port UAE + OS4 to the ARM on a PI, then run 68k emulated + newer code native and forget about the dead-end ppc.
More importantly, how many ££££ for the ppc versus ££ for the PI ? even people wanting to have a laugh could afford it.
TomUK
-
More importantly, how many ££££ for the ppc versus ££ for the PI ? even people wanting to have a laugh could afford it.
TomUK
I get your point, although I've been given several PC's faster than a PI for free.
If it was about $ per GHz or just plain GHz, I don't think anyone would be on this site, even for the absurdly expensive X1000.
I do find a certain appeal in making my good old Miggy run at hundreds of MHz even if my PC could still outpace it. Love trumps sanity at times.
Edit: also note that the PI would have to emulate the chipset which would have a serious impact on performance. A PPC card just needs to handle CPU duty.
-
A vast number of Amiga users never had a PPC anyway, thus have no investment in compatibility. They all have an investment in 68k.
Right now the only reason the phase 5 boards are desirable is that there is software that you cannot run using any other way. WinUAE with PPC support would make a huge dent on the market. An Amiga PPC board that allows you to run existing ppc software ( not necessarily using existing powerup/warpup binaries ) would destroy it.
Anything else is just another new amiga plan which nobody has any investment in & it might as well be one of the new quad core arm chips or an atom.
-
Gah, I guess everyone is missing that you're saying "port AOS4". I did it too, sorry.
I think there's about 0% chance of that. Other than AROS, they just don't seem interested in logical directions.
-
heh, I didn't say emulate, I said port :) Me bad, I should have been more complete tbh: I mean, port UAE + OS4 to the ARM on a PI, then run 68k emulated + newer code native and forget about the dead-end ppc.
More importantly, how many ££££ for the ppc versus ££ for the PI ? even people wanting to have a laugh could afford it.
Oh, no argument about the pricing. But even if you port the OS, any software that you can't recompile for ARM is going to have to be emulated.
-
OK? Leave the exotic HW guys alone or suggest them a better processor option, so they can achieve binary compatibility.
MPC8610. An e600 (aka G4) based SoC, a bit old but pretty suited for Amiga/MorphOS things. e600 comes with Altivec. The 8610 has a fast bus, resonable heat dissipation, most things on chip, is not too expensive (the lower clocked versions at least).
-
MPC8610. An e600 (aka G4) based SoC, a bit old but pretty suited for Amiga/MorphOS things. e600 comes with Altivec. The 8610 has a fast bus, resonable heat dissipation, most things on chip, is not too expensive (the lower clocked versions at least).
Those are about twice the cost, don't have SATA and can't use DDR3 but I'm sure there are upsides to the 8610 as well.
That's what I notice at a glance and price varies from place to place, I'm not sure what their choice was actually based on.
To me, the upside of potentially running existing PPC software isn't really a factor when you consider the improbability of OS support.
-
To me, the upside of potentially running existing PPC software isn't really a factor when you consider the improbability of OS support.
Then a x86 cpu running a 680x0 JIT (and perhaps PPC JIT to emulate CSPPC) may be perfect.
-
You just had to point that out did not you?
I mean there is a whole universe out there with things happening all around us but no, you just had to make a post where you explicitly had to point out that I was wrong about something and you where right about something.
Did it make you feel better?!
Nope Piru is right.
Speaking for myself i have about 20000 mp3 files in my collection. But you're right - no-one uses mp3 anymore...
-
I prefer flac, actually.
-
I prefer flac, actually.
As do I, but dang, man, I ain't made of disk space! I reserve FLAC pretty much for my own audio projects and archival of works that would be hard to re-obtain.
-
Then a x86 cpu running a 680x0 JIT (and perhaps PPC JIT to emulate CSPPC) may be perfect.
I don't disagree, but this card might actually be available at some point.
For price to performance this CPU is probably a pretty good balance.
-
I don't disagree, but this card might actually be available at some point.
For price to performance this CPU is probably a pretty good balance.
If the price is right I could care less about the PPC - as long as it makes all the peripherals work its worth it to me.
3840 + sourcing all those peripherals separately or a slightly faster 3840 with 128MB of ram and every accessory that normally costs hundreds of dollars each? Worth it even if the PPC is crap and the 040 on board.
-
SNIFF SNIFF. I smell Duce in the vicinity.
-
Even if this thing ends up as an '040 accel, if it offers all the goodies like RAM expansion, USB, network, etc. that it promises to - it will be an absolute godsend for 3000/4000 owners.
Just do the math - how much have you guys with real nice 3000/4000 systems with all the more modern bells and whistles invested on little crap like USB cards, network cards, accels, gfx cards? Thousands, over the years.
I got rid of my A4000 back in the day because I didn't feel like shelling out $250 for an Ethernet card to get it on the modern net. I bought a PC that had onboard ethernet, great audio, great video, high speed expandable ram, etc.
I wish I had something like this Ultimate PPC card back then - if it's priced fairly I may even build myself up another legacy Amiga. Hope it sees the light of day.
-
Yep.
-
Even if this thing ends up as an '040 accel, if it offers all the goodies like RAM expansion, USB, network, etc. that it promises to - it will be an absolute godsend for 3000/4000 owners.
Shame that anything beyond 128 MB is unreachable by Zorro DMA.
-
Have you an estimated price for this new card ?
1/ 0 - 100 €
2/ 100 - 200 €
3/ 200 - 300 €
4/ 300 - 400 €
5/ 400 - 500 €
??
-
I think this is really really great.. :)
The upside to having a good CPU bus. :)
When this gets done, I guess those used A4K and A3K will go up in price.
If only we could get a drop-in replacement to the A4K mobo.
-
Have you an estimated price for this new card ?
1/ 0 - 100 €
2/ 100 - 200 €
3/ 200 - 300 €
4/ 300 - 400 €
5/ 400 - 500 €
??
The 1541II ultimate is 129€ I paid 170€ for the version one with ethernet so I think you can safely remove option 1 and 2 :)
-
Shame that anything beyond 128 MB is unreachable by Zorro DMA.
And what does Z3-DMA ?
- Deneb.... well there is USB on the board
- A4091/A4000T-SCSI .... no big loss, SATA onboard
- Fastlane ... ditto
-
Nope Piru is right.
Speaking for myself i have about 20000 mp3 files in my collection. But you're right - no-one uses mp3 anymore...
Unless, you arte super rich, I beleive you mazy not have paid for all those 20,00 mp3s :)
-
Unless, you arte super rich, I beleive you mazy not have paid for all those 20,00 mp3s :)
Maybe he ripped his own collection of records,tapes, Cd's,etc? 1 album a week for 23 years would be around 17000 songs. :)
-
Unless, you arte super rich, I beleive you mazy not have paid for all those 20,00 mp3s :)
Maybe he ripped his own collection of records,tapes, Cd's,etc? 1 album a week for 23 years would be around 17000 songs. :)
My collection goes back to when Napster was in its prime. I have never paid for an mp3 because i will not pay for a substandard quality recording.
-
My collection goes back to when Napster was in its prime. I have never paid for an mp3 because i will not pay for a substandard quality recording.
Would you steal a car, if it does not live up to your expectations?
-
My collection goes back to when Napster was in its prime. I have never paid for an mp3 because i will not pay for a substandard quality recording.
Would you steal a car, if it does not live up to your expectations?
Seriously? 1998 called, it wants its flamewar back.
I promise you have nothing to gain or lose for being a self-righteous f*** about this topic - so many many more before you have walked that path.
Also, your argument is fallacious.
-
It may have been said countless times before, but it does not change the fact, that it is stealing, all pirating is stealing.
That fact has not changed since 1998 or what ever year you pick.
-
What, no Natami support?
I think a mainboard made with UtltimatePPC and Natami as the chipset woud be awesome! It would also be the closest to a real PPC Amiga. :-)
-
It may have been said countless times before, but it does not change the fact, that it is stealing, all pirating is stealing.
That fact has not changed since 1998 or what ever year you pick.
That "fact" has never been true. Theft and copyright infringement are not the same crime nor covered by the same law in any country on earth, for a very simple reason: The legal definition of theft requires that the owner is deprived of that which is stolen.
All human societies have had restrictions on theft, dating back thousands of years even in written statutes, but the very idea of copyright is relatively recent (it dates back to the Statute of Anne from 1710), and was put in place explicitly because theft does *not* cover copying. It was a landgrab.
First a lot later did the idea of justifying copyright as a way of promoting the arts and sciences come about, but even then the theory goes that it is a trade between the public and the creators of works: The public voluntarily give up some rights they would otherwise have in order to give a time limited monopoly, in order to promote creation of more works.
Copyright is explicitly *not* about protecting the rights of creators of works, but about creating new ones by taking away rights from the public.
Since then the power has shifted more and more away from the public with little to no proof that the increasingly uneven trade is worth it.
Long way of saying that the idea of equating theft and copyright infringement is laughable, and demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding for what copyright is about.
-
What is the point of the 040 then? Why not include a JIT in rom?.
For one thing the card would still need to boot. If it goes in the CPU slot then there needs to be a real 68K on there or at least some soft 68K that can activate itself on bootup and execute the AmigaOS reset routine from ROM.
That being said you could also say why not just make a cheap x86 based accelerator? Amithlon provided a fast way to emulate AmigaOS on 68K and for Amiga programs to be compiled as native x86. So much so that some people wanted OS4 PPC to be dumped in favor of Amitlhon becoming the official OS4. Aside from the x86 OS4 Amiga announced it didn't make sense to me wanting to replace an OS with an emulated version of the same OS and claim it as the next version!
So in theory you could use a soft 68K on x86 as well. Provided it was cheap because of the CPU. With that speed endianness becomes a low issue.
-
I think a mainboard made with UtltimatePPC and Natami as the chipset woud be awesome! It would also be the closest to a real PPC Amiga. :-)
now thats a great idea .... in a amiga type 500 case ..ppc3000/060 1gighz..dvd an high density floppy on right hand side of case ..slide in dvd like the ps3 ..multiple ports on back ..usb etc ..compact flash hardrives inside ..wireless mouse/keyboard ..inbuilt indivision type to output from the super fantastic quad AAA chipset ..wireless network inbuilt broadband ......??? ..its nice to dream :>
-
How about we keep the offtopic copyright discussion in another thread?
-
And what does Z3-DMA ?
- Deneb.... well there is USB on the board
- A4091/A4000T-SCSI .... no big loss, SATA onboard
- Fastlane ... ditto
Right, and only one at a time because Buster is Bust-ed.
Assuming the final product can't DMA into other memory, it's not a huge loss.
-
Right now the only reason the phase 5 boards are desirable is that there is software that you cannot run using any other way. WinUAE with PPC support would make a huge dent on the market. An Amiga PPC board that allows you to run existing ppc software ( not necessarily using existing powerup/warpup binaries ) would destroy it..
I don't think so. AmigaOS4 can use a warpUP wrapper that would be compaitible with most clean code . So existing PPC software can work. And that hasn't killed the Classic PowerPC market. As well as running MOS and OS4.
But, what would be destroyed here? A Phase5 board? So what, amazing there is a new replacement
I don't know if it's out of respect or just not bothering to put an extsting PPC emulator in WinUAE because it's harder than it looks but (most likely) but I had hoiped at least that PPC UAE would have included support for Classic PowerPC emulation using the native CPU. IT would have given the PPC Amiga platforms some edge over the PC version of UAE, With the shocking lack of any decent GUI in the UAEs we've had making them so un-Amiga like they need somethinng to stand out!
-
But, what would be destroyed here? A Phase5 board? So what, amazing there is a new replacement
The ultimatePPC is not a replacement for a phase 5 board & neither is any of the "new Amigas". If you want an AGA machine with a PPC board that will run all software, then you have no choice put to pay the inflated price of phase 5 boards.
If the ultimate ppc had a CPU with the full FPU then the price of Phase 5 boards would drop. I just can't see this becoming the must have accessory.
So in theory you could use a soft 68K on x86 as well. Provided it was cheap because of the CPU. With that speed endianness becomes a low issue.
I agree, as the PPC they chose isn't compatible with alot of existing PPC software and will have to emulate the older processors to be able to run all software then using an X86 would make a lot of sense to run 68k & PPC software. If you could make it act like a bridgeboard as well then that would be even better.
There is no reason why an Amiga needs to have a real 68k at all. When you plug in an accelerator board it disables the onboard processor, on the german a2000 you had to remove the onboard processor. You'll need software to boot the machine up, which would either be an emulator that runs Kickstart or it could be something new that just configured hardware and then booted from hard disk. A boot menu could then allow you to pick between running kickstart under emulation or booting linux or windows.
-
Last saturday we had our Commodore GG meeting, and the UltimatePPC was shown "in the flesh".
Both delevopers were in Maarssen and brought along Samo Jordan, original developer of the WarpOS/WarpUP! software.
Current status is:
- Hardwarewise the PPC side is working and booting. The 68040 side works, but does not yet talk to the classic hardware. The card does run, standalone. But the Amiga will not boot yet with the card inserted.
- Active talks with Hyperion for supporting AmigaOS4.x.
- Driver support: lots of help pledged for building drivers for all the hardware goodies (more help is always welcome!)
- Support for WarpUp/WarpOS through support pledged by the original author
Interesting bit: The MicroSD card on the UltimatePPC holds the firmware/bootcode. This is indended to stay. That means upgrading/flashing the card can be done with a normal PC and a card reader... !!
-
Downside is you need an A3000/A4000. But yeah if it could be standalone as well ;-)
-
Very good news
-
- Support for WarpUp/WarpOS through support pledged by the original author
I believe it when I see it (specifically running various WOS apps utilizing the FPU).
-
It's very positve news that the original WarpOS author is interested, hopefully so will Hyperion and they are able to overcome the compatibility issues that have been discussed.
I wish the 040 was socketed, it would allow the end user to source their own 060 if required, even though I'm still very interested in this project.
-
I wish the 040 was socketed, it would allow the end user to source their own 060 if required, even though I'm still very interested in this project.
provided they made it able to take an 060. voltage switch, socket pins, fpga support etc. all need to be there for 060 before the thing will work that way.
-
Any reason you guys don't do a kickstarter project? It seems like you are pretty serious. I wouldn't mind kicking $100 or so for the R&D if it paid off for me somehow in the end...sorta what kickstarter is for... :)
-
That 68040 says 66/33Mhz. Is there any way to make it run at 66Mhz as opposed to 33?
-
i think it doesnt make much sense for hyperion to support it if all applications would have to be recompiled to run on it. what concerns warp i dont know. as i mentioned perhaps its best to run jitted 68k emu on the ppc side having amiga hardware still accessible. thats only way to utilize it that would attract me i suppose. even if the phtos are looking great!
-
Any reason you guys don't do a kickstarter project? It seems like you are pretty serious. I wouldn't mind kicking $100 or so for the R&D if it paid off for me somehow in the end...sorta what kickstarter is for... :)
+1
-
That 68040 says 66/33Mhz. Is there any way to make it run at 66Mhz as opposed to 33?
That isn't two options, it's the clock needed and the CPU speed.
A normal 25MHz 040 like on an A3640 is 50/25.
There is a bit more to supporting an 060 than just the voltages, you've also got timing and protocol differences. You can make an 060 fall back to speaking 040 fairly easily but they seem to really want a surface mount chip.
I can't blame them, they have to be way cheaper and easier to source, plus if you can use the PPC as an 040 at some point, who cares?
I'm still very excited about this project, can't wait to get my grubby little hands on at least one.
-
I believe it when I see it (specifically running various WOS apps utilizing the FPU).
I just love you positive attitude ;)
This project is great, and it looks like they can really make it happen.
-
I just love you positive attitude ;)
This project is great, and it looks like they can really make it happen.
I don't know how much positive attitude is needed to turn a CPU to execute incompatible FPU code. Must be a lot.
-
I don't know how much positive attitude is needed to turn a CPU to execute incompatible FPU code. Must be a lot.
At least we are moving forward now, instead of being stuck with 199x hardware. Who knows, maybe in future this will be the compatible CPU and all currently in use PPC's will be the incompatible ones... :)
-
lol. hate to think amigaones might occur to be amiga incompatible (again).. ;) , and mac gear too!
-
lol. hate to think amigaones might occur to be amiga incompatible (again).. ;) , and mac gear too!
That's why I put the smiley up! :)
-
You wouldn't need to execute incompatible fpu code, if everything wasn't so "closed source" in amigaland.
good thing that other developers don't have the crappy amiga attitude to source releases, or morphos/os4 would have no decent web browser,, video player and so on.
-
good thing that other developers don't have the crappy amiga attitude to source releases, or morphos/os4 would have no decent web browser,, video player
...TCP stack, font engine (+fonts), PDF viewer, archive support, OpenGL, compositing...
-
At least we are moving forward now, instead of being stuck with 199x hardware
:lol:
maybe in future this will be the compatible CPU and all currently in use PPC's will be the incompatible ones... :)
:lol: :lol:
-
...TCP stack, font engine (+fonts), PDF viewer, archive support, OpenGL, compositing...
yeh - exactly :)
-
compositing...
Really?
-
At least we are moving forward now, instead of being stuck with 199x hardware. Who knows, maybe in future this will be the compatible CPU and all currently in use PPC's will be the incompatible ones... :)
Rather unlikely. While the e500V2 core is used for quite some QorIQ and PowerQUICC chips, Freescale seem to shift away from it. Sorry for saying it that straight: but IMO it's just stupid to chose an e500V2 cpu for such a project. But I am only repeating myself here, a few pages before I wrote alredy about that.
-
Really?
so ignore everything else on the list. the point is made.
-
(double)
-
At least we are moving forward now, instead of being stuck with 199x hardware. Who knows, maybe in future this will be the compatible CPU and all currently in use PPC's will be the incompatible ones... :)
Is there any reason why you didnt pick ARM core or x86 chip? I mean, since you dont aim for backward compatibility there could have been more cost effective options?
-
well I have no idea - I'm assuming it isn't from your remarks - always good to avoid the "point" and be pedantic. major components are - which was the point - that amiga projects benefit from open source, yet often give back very little. in this case, criticism over hardware about compatibility, when you could just as easily blame the software for being closed for the "incompatiblities".
Many of the posts on slashdot were right imho (re morphos). You just dont see it, and hence you will only have a small userbase and developers (such as myself) will stay away and work on other things.
-
Many of the posts on slashdot were right imho (re morphos). You just dont see it, and hence you will only have a small userbase and developers (such as myself) will stay away and work on other things.
The vast majority of the posts on slashdot are just totally irrelevant. They don't see the point of this project, so be it, but they can just skip the article instead of throwing so much nonsense.
And I also wonder why you always come with this "it's not opensource so i don't touch it" mantra. AmigaOS/MorphOS is not linux, you can contribute a lot and even code drivers without requiring access to the kernel. So dear Mr Developer, what do you really need access to the source for? What would you like to work on?
And if you need an excuse, just say you're not interested, it's better than this "it's not opensource" thing.
-
well I have no idea - I'm assuming it isn't from your remarks - always good to avoid the "point" and be pedantic. major components are - which was the point - that amiga projects benefit from open source, yet often give back very little. in this case, criticism over hardware about compatibility, when you could just as easily blame the software for being closed for the "incompatiblities".
I think you misunderstood Piru this time. Who is using open source compositing engine? Certainly someone is using open source compositing engine but dont like to admit it publicly.
Many of the posts on slashdot were right imho (re morphos). You just dont see it, and hence you will only have a small userbase and developers (such as myself) will stay away and work on other things.
There are n+1 open source Amiga projects on google code and sf.net. From Aminet you can find more open source stuff. Problem is not that there isnt enough open source code to make this accelerator board project float.
-
Is there any reason why you didnt pick ARM core or x86 chip? I mean, since you dont aim for backward compatibility there could have been more cost effective options?
You seem to think I am somehow involved; I am not. I am just excited to see new hardware being developed for our classic machines. The fact Hyperion is getting involved at some point and we might see AmigaOS 4.x being released for it sounds good to me, at least better than a Cyberstorm.
Now, if Morphos were to run on this card I would be highly interested, for now Morphos is a no-go for me because I simply do not have the hardware to run it on.
Instead of bashing the card and looking for all the impossibilities it would be nice if people looked at the posibilities instead. With some effort this could be a future, at least for the classic owners out there...
-
Morphos is a no-go for me because I simply do not have the hardware to run it on.
Faster MorphOS hardware is fraction of the price of this thing.
With some effort this could be a future
The FPU thing makes this a dead end, no matter how you look at it. Unless if the CPU is changed there is just no way I can see this project succeed, at least for the PPC side of things.
Even if this thing would eventually get support for some project, it'd mean that there would have to be two set of binaries released for each application, library etc. It still would not make earlier binary only releases work.
BTW is Sam Jordan aware that the chosen CPU has an incompatible FPU?
-
Instead of bashing the card and looking for all the impossibilities it would be nice if people looked at the posibilities instead. With some effort this could be a future, at least for the classic owners out there...
I am sure it is nice accelerator board but porting project is enormous.
-
BTW is Sam Jordan aware that the chosen CPU has an incompatible FPU?
Yes. Fortunatly he is looking at possibilities instead of rejecting it at first hand.
-
Yes. Fortunatly he is looking at possibilities instead of rejecting it at first hand.
You think I am making this up and didn't look at the specs before rejecting it? Also, isn't this kind of backward thing to do: First create the HW around some CPU and then try to figure out if it can be used at all?
-
Seems to me I've started refurbishing all my A4000Ds and A3000Ds MBs for a good reason
I'll be watching this with interest
-
BTW is Sam Jordan aware that the chosen CPU has an incompatible FPU?
Yes. Fortunatly he is looking at possibilities instead of rejecting it at first hand.
I cannot believe...
For the love of God and the Amiga, please choose another 100% 603e-604e compatible PPC for your great project
The PPC side was divided in two since the beginning, do not divide it again by three !
I can't believe, I can't...
How hard is to understand that :
DIVISION = NO SUCCESS
UNITY = SUCCESS
I can't believe, I have no words...
-
For the love of God and the Amiga, please choose another 100% 603e-604e compatible PPC for your great project
It's not my project.
-
The vast majority of the posts on slashdot are just totally irrelevant. They don't see the point of this project, so be it, but they can just skip the article instead of throwing so much nonsense.
And I also wonder why you always come with this "it's not opensource so i don't touch it" mantra. AmigaOS/MorphOS is not linux, you can contribute a lot and even code drivers without requiring access to the kernel. So dear Mr Developer, what do you really need access to the source for? What would you like to work on?
And if you need an excuse, just say you're not interested, it's better than this "it's not opensource" thing.
re the open source things. I like to have the ability to hack on / debug/ improve software I run. open source allows me to do that.
your comment that I dont need access to the kernel to write a driver, is exactly my issue - being told what I can and can't do. I won't want to buy into software to run as my hobby machine, that is locked down to a single piece of hardware, doesnt give me the freedom to work on parts that I want. Maybe I want to work on the core os. Or maybe I don't but I would like the ability to be there. right now the "morphos" team have the power to pull the plug on the os, or refuse to replacea keyfile if hardware was to die. No thanks.
I'm not picking on just morphos. I feel the same about os4.
I realise my "views" are incompatible with the views of many "Amiga users". I realise you will continue to utilise open source that originates from other platforms, while limiting the freedom your own users have with your code.. and because of that you also limit your userbase. I'm sure that doesn't matter to you either.
-
Using an incompatible PPC makes no sense. Please choose a PPC with compatible FPU.
-
@Tahoe
Would he be willing to open source WarpOS? it could be useful for AROS-PPC :-)
-
I think you misunderstood Piru this time. Who is using open source compositing engine? Certainly someone is using open source compositing engine but dont like to admit it publicly.
i see. well, that's a shame.
There are n+1 open source Amiga projects on google code and sf.net. From Aminet you can find more open source stuff. Problem is not that there isnt enough open source code to make this accelerator board project float.
there is very little "open source" code originating in Amiga land from my experience (excl aros). I've got comfortable in the fact that the source is available for pretty much all the software I run these days (on linux). You are right there isn't enough - and it will never change while people seem to have the private club / closed source ethos.
-
What I'd really like is an accelerator with a 68060 at 90 or 100mhz with a 2ghz power pc processor for morph/os4. That would be something I wouldn't even think about buying, I would just click buy it now. The fact that no one has realized thats what many amiga fans want/need is kind of sad...
The problem is that decent 68060s are rarer than an honest politician these days.
Best bet for this board is to put on a 68040/68060 socket, so people can use their own 68060s if they have them, otherwise provide a 68040.
In reality, this is another piece of modern hardware 100x more capable than the computer it is attaching to. I hope that there is a market for this device and that it does well, but in reality is there a market? IMO with the 500 new A1200s discovered, they would be better off making an A1200 PowerPC card. Or an entirely new PowerPC computer with a 'compatibility slot' that lets you slot in an FPGA Amiga implementation.
-
My collection goes back to when Napster was in its prime. I have never paid for an mp3 because i will not pay for a substandard quality recording.
You could buy the CDs and rip, or buy higher-quality AACs/MP3s/FLACs instead.
But on the other hand, digital piracy is not theft (you do not deny somebody else the product), it's merely copyright infringement. And it appears that people who buy music are also the ones most likely to pirate (presumably once their music funds run out).
-
re the open source things. I like to have the ability to hack on / debug/ improve software I run. open source allows me to do that.
your comment that I dont need access to the kernel to write a driver, is exactly my issue - being told what I can and can't do. I won't want to buy into software to run as my hobby machine, that is locked down to a single piece of hardware, doesnt give me the freedom to work on parts that I want. Maybe I want to work on the core os. Or maybe I don't but I would like the ability to be there. right now the "morphos" team have the power to pull the plug on the os, or refuse to replacea keyfile if hardware was to die. No thanks.
I'm not picking on just morphos. I feel the same about os4.
I realise my "views" are incompatible with the views of many "Amiga users". I realise you will continue to utilise open source that originates from other platforms, while limiting the freedom your own users have with your code.. and because of that you also limit your userbase. I'm sure that doesn't matter to you either.
Mate, if you REALLY have issues with using any software that you don`t have complete source control over then how did you ever start using an amiga?
For that matter how do you get by in daily life?
Do you demand schematics when you buy a new TV?
It is a wholly unreasonable expectation.
edit: I`ll also add that a lot of big open source projects result in a turgid mish-mash of competing ideas and lack polish. Amiga idea is based around tight code, simplicity and efficient use of resources, everything OSS isn`t . Open source MOS would be a disaster.
Threads about the direction AmigaOS and clones should take are regularly punctuated by foolish suggestions - would you give all these people source access and allow them to fork the OS every time they want support for some stupid thing?
re-edit: Would you use a parachute that had been packed by a thousand people taking turns to make one fold and each having a different view on how to pack a parachute?
-
Mate, if you REALLY have issues with using any software that you don`t have complete source control over then how did you ever start using an amiga?
For that matter how do you get by in daily life?
Do you demand schematics when you buy a new TV?
It is a wholly unreasonable expectation.
I had different ideas when I got the Amiga and was still learning much about computing.
I get by fine thanks. I choose to use open source. It is available and I can do that. Certainly it would be nice to have the firmware for my TV.
you can call it unreasonable, but I'm not alone and the free open software is out there, and as an Amiga user you benefit from it. It works for me - I had some ethernet issue with linux, I was able to debug, send a patch upstream and make it work. Same with other software.
I might have bought into a closed amigaos in the past, but that doesn't mean I have to do it again :)
-
@Tahoe
Since you are at least in touch with these folks, maybe you can have them add a direct link to where they would like comments that might assist them.
I say this because the site is quite clear that it monitors neither Amigaworld nor Amiga.org, and -that's- where the majority of comments seem to be.
bottom of page sums it up (http://ultimateppc.nl/index.php)
Worse yet, it's "we will try to monitor", so even the 2 sites listed may not be read by them.
The cause of failure in many (if not most) amiga projects is due to having the most horrid communications imaginable, hence why I believe this to be important, if they intend to continue.
#6
-
edit: I`ll also add that a lot of big open source projects result in a turgid mish-mash of competing ideas and lack polish. Amiga idea is based around tight code, simplicity and efficient use of resources, everything OSS isn`t . Open source MOS would be a disaster.
Threads about the direction AmigaOS and clones should take are regularly punctuated by foolish suggestions - would you give all these people source access and allow them to fork the OS every time they want support for some stupid thing?
re-edit: Would you use a parachute that had been packed by a thousand people taking turns to make one fold and each having a different view on how to pack a parachute?
your first remark is FUD. it is no different from closed source, quality is different from project to project - and has the advantage more eyes can be on the code to pick up issues.
the rest of your post, I don't agree - and is speculation with no founding.
I'm not suprised by your view though.
and the parachute remark? how is it any different from any large project, open or closed. the source license makes no difference. you have to organise etc and work together.
The proof is out there - there are many successful collaborative and open projects. I benefit from them as do you most likely.
you don't have to agree, and can carry on with your closed source. I benefit from open source, and utilise it for work and hobby computing. I actively develop on open projects also.
-
It is just my opinion, OSS often seems to lack vision and direction to me. Your response is disarming and reasonable though, I did not mean to be as confrontational as I think I may have been.
-
It is just my opinion, OSS often seems to lack vision and direction to me. Your response is disarming and reasonable though, I did not mean to be as confrontational as I think I may have been.
My perspective is that lots of projects lack direction, no matter the source license and many are also well organised, structured, and focused.
To take a small example regarding code quality, if I work on a piece of small code alone, but license it as open source, is the code quality going to be affected? In my experience, the benefits are people can send patches back, which i can check and merge as needed. I don't believe people instantly fork something when one thing doesn't go their way, but they have the ability to for sure - and it can be a bit messy (ffmpeg/libav for example) - even though in that case, both projects pull code from each other, but have a different focus.
Fragmentation isn't always avoidable, but it's not guaranteed either (and so I don't think used as a - open source doesnt work because argument), and like with any project that is collaborative, there will be the need to discuss, compromise and so on.
Perhaps we just have a different experience of this.
-
Open source MOS would be a disaster.
Threads about the direction AmigaOS and clones should take are regularly punctuated by foolish suggestions - would you give all these people source access and allow them to fork the OS every time they want support for some stupid thing?
Yeah look at how many forks of AROS there are. err ummm oh well I tried to help :P
-
Ha, you`re right of course but I imagine the odds go up with the number of developers. It sort of happened with that linux-based-AROS thingy that was talked about a while back remember?
I think projects with a well-defined endgame are well suited to open source development, for example: `a library to decode some format` or `a wrapper for some API`. Whereas open-ended stuff like `An OS` or even `a word-processor` are more likely to bloat and fork.
Anyhow I ought not keep dragging this thread off-topic, sorry.
-
Really?
Sorry, my fault - my OS4 days have been a while. I assumed compositing was relying on Cairo, but it probably isn't.
Itix' remark hints at yet another conspiracy theory amongst Morphos developers - I assure you I have zero knowledge about OS4's compositing engine and how it came into existance.
So dear Mr Developer, what do you really need access to the source for? What would you like to work on?
If you had actually read the thread, you might have noticed that the hardware we're discussing has an incompatible FPU. And even if it was fully compatible, an open source MorphOS could be ported to it (by 'end users') even if his majesty wouldn't be interested, while a closed source MorphOS simply won't be ported.
And while I'm not demanding or expecting anything, buzz has a point. For someone who's doing some impressive work based on other people's code, you show remarkably less enthusiasm for opening the MorphOS code. There might be valid reasons for that (like ego, and the OS4 paranoia fed by said ego), but "open sourcing isn't neccessary" doesn't sound very convincing, coming from you ;)
Same thing could be said about most members of the OS4 team, of course. Just that the situation over there is a lot more complicated.
-
major components are - which was the point - that amiga projects benefit from open source, yet often give back very little.
good thing that other developers don't have the crappy amiga attitude to source releases,
And while I'm not demanding or expecting anything, buzz has a point. For someone who's doing some impressive work based on other people's code, you show remarkably less enthusiasm for opening the MorphOS code.
Source Code Releases
APDF Download
Ambient Download
Multiview Download
VPDF Download
ahi.device Download
ahi-handler Download
ascii.datatype Download
asl.library Download
binary.datatype Download
c Download
clipboard.device Download
colorwheel.gadget Download
commodities.library Download
datatypes.library Download
diskfont.library Download
dos.library Download
gadtools.library Download
gradientslider.gadget Download
intuition.library Download
ixemul.library Download
keymaps Download
locale.library Download
more Download
realtime.library Download
reqtools.library Download
text.datatype Download
http://morphos-team.net/downloads
There might be valid reasons for that (like ego, and the OS4 paranoia fed by said ego), but "open sourcing isn't neccessary" doesn't sound very convincing, coming from you
So I guess it's that "ego" and "OS4 paranoia" that brought Fab's MorphOS version of mplayer, as well as his own browser Odyssey (based on an OS engine, the browser itself is an application written from scratch) to both OS4 and AROS then? Without any demand for bounties, donations whatsoever? Hmm, very much ego and paranoia indeed...
-
And while I'm not demanding or expecting anything, buzz has a point. For someone who's doing some impressive work based on other people's code, you show remarkably less enthusiasm for opening the MorphOS code. There might be valid reasons for that (like ego, and the OS4 paranoia fed by said ego), but "open sourcing isn't neccessary" doesn't sound very convincing, coming from you ;)
In case you wouldn't have noticed, I provide the code for almost all my applications, especially if they're ports of opensource software. OS4 as well as AROS users could benefit from it (odyssey, mplayer, mame, ...). So i'm not sure your comment applies too well.
On the other hand, I don't think the OS code should be totally opened (they are some opensource parts in it, see above). It would be either like Ambient, noone except the team members themselves touching it, or it would be a huge mess of confronting visions, forks and low quality code, like it happens in so many opensource projects.
-
In case you wouldn't have noticed, I provide the code for almost all my applications
I know (and appreciate) that, of course. I was referring to MorphOS, which you didn't want to have open sourced. Which results in more and more (3rd party) code not being open sourced, which hinders the growth of the platform IMHO.
But we're being way off-topic, so I'll leave it at that.
-
please. open sourcing mos is out of question as it is with os4, we dont need to discuss it, we have all variants of aros. mos team keeps part of it open and provided sources derived from aros back, thats all right.
back on topic:
as everyone sane and the experts said here the project si in danger because of incompatible ppc cpu. also i think its insane to try to introduce just another incompatible niche especially with low user numbers (the remaining motherboard connectors are rare). also ppc side having no access to original amiga side is a handicap in my opinion. it doesnt make much sense to put this hardware into amiga case if this is practically stand alone.
i think the project makes very nice impression, but has serious conceptual flaws that will likely make it fail even if completed. designers would be best advised to observe, discuss and address the expectation in the target audience if they want they project be commercially successful. but if its just for their own fun then it is fine like it is.
-
also i think its insane to try to introduce just another incompatible niche especially with low user numbers
I've heard that for 10 years after each new "project" was introduced, regardless of who introduced it. At some point you have to accept they know this, and do it for other reasons, since sanity is certainly not an element in the decision making process. Heh.
#6
-
True but in this case I think it was simply an erroneous decision that for whatever reason has not been acknowledged or amended (yet). Hopefuly it will because it would be a shame to see someone with the time and inclination to build this kind of hardware produce something which is effectively useless when it could be killer.
-
your comment that I dont need access to the kernel to write a driver, is exactly my issue - being told what I can and can't do. I won't want to buy into software to run as my hobby machine, that is locked down to a single piece of hardware, doesnt give me the freedom to work on parts that I want. Maybe I want to work on the core os. Or maybe I don't but I would like the ability to be there. right now the "morphos" team have the power to pull the plug on the os, or refuse to replacea keyfile if hardware was to die. No thanks.
Buy an UltimatePPC and get AROS running on it then.
-
BTW is Sam Jordan aware that the chosen CPU has an incompatible FPU?
Yes he is. I understand from him that in WarpOS there actually is some abstraction of the FPU code and that we can trap all FPU instructions. It is something we can work on to get this running.
While I understand the skeptical remarks it is the same in all projects. Trade-offs are always part of it - some turn out great, others don't. We believe we can make this work and want to offer a nice package to the Amiga community.
With regards to updates from our side, an often made remark... my current plan is to do a monthly update from our side regarding progress made. I'm really reading all posts on the UltimatePPC thread here, and at AmigaScene.nl and whenever I see something that strikes me as valuable input I discuss it with Gideon.
We showed the board at the last Dutch Amiga meeting in Maarssen on June 17th, and are working very hard to get it to a stage where we can demo the card to an audience. Please keep in mind this is something we do in what used to be the scarce spare time we had!
Next update is planned end of this month...
-
Wow that`s great! If WOS runs then that makes a big difference.
People will respect the likes of Harry Sintonen when he says it`s a dead end, that doesn`t mean we want it to fail...
-
we can trap all FPU instructions
That should work, assuming the other differences can be handled in a similar manner. It remains to be seen what kind of performance impact it might have. WarpUP-WarpOS/Demos/cybermand will be the judge of that I guess.
As I recall it for some reason WOS exposes the supervisor side of the CPU to any apps though (Super() call). Hopefully that isn't used much.
-
Buy an UltimatePPC and get AROS running on it then.
that sounds like an expensive way to run aros.
you know there is a difference between me having the freedom to do something, and you telling me to do something right ? :)
I already have plenty of projects anyway, but thanks.
(I may well buy one of these devices, and I certainly wish them the best of luck with the project)
-
Itix' remark hints at yet another conspiracy theory amongst Morphos developers - I assure you I have zero knowledge about OS4's compositing engine and how it came into existance.
Sorry, my fault this time. It was an educated guess based on a hearsay from a beta tester.
-
Yes he is. I understand from him that in WarpOS there actually is some abstraction of the FPU code and that we can trap all FPU instructions. It is something we can work on to get this running.
fine, but the downside of warpos is and ever was that it needs natively compiled binaries to take advantage of it. everything else remains as slow as it was without it. i repeat my proposal ive already made before: 68k emu running transparently on ppc to speed just everything up. the advantage is, you do not create another niche within a niche, that demands out of date, rarely available and practically unsupported compiler targets backends and particular coding. on the contrary, plain 68k code executed sorta atop of abstraction layer (68k emu) allows easily even further migration to future faster extension cards and exchangeability between all amiga-ng solutions.
what do you say?
-
@thread
that sounds like an expensive way to run aros.
That is another problem. It only has averagely performant 68040 to run Workbench but it is relatively expensive toy to run AROS/PPC. AROS/PPC on the other hand is not designed for 68k compatibility and Janus UAE solutions are slower than 68040 on that board.
If it ever runs WarpUp kernel on that board but PPC (PUP+WUP) software library is small. And before someone is going to get his hopes up for new software I should remind that both PUP and WUP kernels implement only bare minimum (Ralph might kill me for that, tho...). There are all those cache flush and context switch issues and developer support ceased to exist aeons ago.
Software support for this board is more than problematic and complex.
-
Buy an UltimatePPC and get AROS running on it then.
as aros is open source everybody is free to do that, but i wouldnt put effort into another fork just to cover a few potential users. aros supports 68k for a reason (except my particular interests) namely it lets control its backwards compatibility. similarly currently there is an effort to get sams supported. but yet another spacial case might become way too much.
@itix: +1000...000!!!
-
(the remaining motherboard connectors are rare)
Sorry, I would have to correct you on this bit... The connectors are still being manufactured by Kel. You can buy them in minimum quantities of 220 pieces. They have already been sourced.
As far as changing the design: so far development seems to be on track, with support for both WarpUp and AmigaOS4 firmly rooted, I personally see no reason why they need to change anything. If somewhere along the line a problem occurs which they cannot overcome they can cross that bridge when they get there I suppose.
If some applications do not run because they rely heavily on the FPU and can't be trapped, maybe the author(s) are willing to adapt the code, or open source it for someone else to help out.
-
Quick correction... Aros 68k is not only needed for testing backward compatibility, it is also used for 68k emulation (in X86/ARM...) and as bridge to the 68k community (the biggest amiga-usergroup)
-
Sorry, I would have to correct you on this bit... The connectors are still being manufactured by Kel. You can buy them in minimum quantities of 220 pieces. They have already been sourced.
didnt know that, this is certainly a good news.
as for warpos, as an owner of csppc i really feel its a dead solution, lets see if i be proven wrong.
but how will os4 work around the fpu incompatibility?
-
fine, but the downside of warpos is and ever was that it needs natively compiled binaries to take advantage of it. everything else remains as slow as it was without it. i repeat my proposal ive already made before: 68k emu running transparently on ppc to speed just everything up. the advantage is, you do not create another niche within a niche, that demands out of date, rarely available and practically unsupported compiler targets backends and particular coding. on the contrary, plain 68k code executed sorta atop of abstraction layer (68k emu) allows easily even further migration to future faster extension cards and exchangeability between all amiga-ng solutions.
what do you say?
At least we have a few WOS apps though, if it runs. A CS replacement that goes fast would be saleable I`m sure but given Petro`s offer a Blizzard replacement might now do better.
-
At least we have a few WOS apps though, if it runs.
yes, they are really a few, id say. compare it to a situation when every available application could take advantage of the speedup..
A CS replacement that goes fast would be saleable I`m sure but given Petro`s offer a Blizzard replacement might now do better.
unregarded any offer there is certainly more a1k2 than a4k in use.
-
Well if we`re talking 68k then I agree that a silly-fast x86 with jit and glue in fpga as an accelerator would be amazing. In fact it`s a bit of a dream of mine. I even posited it on natami.org but of course I can offer little to help so it`s just a dream.
edit: well, in ROM or whatever, you know what I mean...
-
http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/219881.shtml
-
@all
If someone know Sam Jordan = Please, send him this picture, I discovered a bug in WarpUp/PowerPC_FreeXMsg
Thanks,
-
http://www.sam-jordan.ch/
-
http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/219881.shtml
Interesting read. And pretty much states outright the foolishness of using the e500 core when you need a standard PowerPC with FPU. I hope that the UltimatePPC people take this on board and maybe take a look at SoCs from AMCC or better Freescale SoCs instead.
-
that sounds like an expensive way to run aros.
you know there is a difference between me having the freedom to do something, and you telling me to do something right ? :)
You either want to do something or you don't. If you're just in love with the idea that you should be able to do whatever you want but you're not going to contribute anything back then tough, nobody cares.
AROS on UltimatePPC is what you need to achieve your objectives, you just need to get over the idea that MorphOS or AOS4 should be open source.
-
You either want to do something or you don't. If you're just in love with the idea that you should be able to do whatever you want but you're not going to contribute anything back then tough, nobody cares.
AROS on UltimatePPC is what you need to achieve your objectives, you just need to get over the idea that MorphOS or AOS4 should be open source.
No - I want the freedom to be able to do something. I don't need telling what I should or shouldn't do - and I already contribute huge amounts of my free time (close to all of it) to open source projects.
AROS on ultimatePPC isn't going to be that useful when it runs better on cheaper already available hardware. but yeh, the freedom is there to do it. I don't see your point though.
-
Update from the developers:
Happy Holidays from the UltimatePPC team!*
As we are nearing the summer holidays it is time for a quick status update from our side. The last few months have been hectic as both Gideon and myself have been extremely busy with personal affairs besides trying to advance the UltimatePPC project. As we have the prototype boards in our hands we have been actively working on booting a basic kernel on the PowerPC core and interfacing the board to the Amiga bus. Parallel we are starting the software development side of things, with WarpOS support being worked on - as well as first contact with Hyperion regarding AmigaOS4 support.
We also keep an eye on feedback from the community and are evaluating the choice made for the P1013 CPU.We knew that the FPU in this processor is incompatible with the ones found on older PowerPC boards. Our original plan to fix these incompatibilities in software turns out to have more impact that we had foreseen. For this reason, we will reconsider the choice of PowerPC CPU, while continuing the development work of other important stuff on the current prototype.
So what's next? First we'll take a few weeks off for holidays and time with family. Somewhere in August we get together again… Expect a new update end of August! Happy holidays!