PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution

[Louis Dias]

No, I play it better with JNES on my PC.
Not to mention ZSNES and Project64... Dolwin is coming along...

Then there's ePSXe and WinUAE and MAME, Stella, Gens...

ps,

What's the L4 kernel?

[Louis Dias]

Gee, a 360 exclusive launch title developer slams the Revolution controller: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12577

I think MS is scared that Revolution could dethrone the 360 as the FPS platform.

His comments are rather stupid.  Though I'll agree that there is nothing wrong with the 360 controller...there's also nothing new about it and it (to me) resembles a Dreamcast controller, not Revolution's...

On the PS3, while the controller is ugly as poo, I hear it feels good in your hands.  Again, nothing new there either.

[Louis Dias]

interesting and useless "prediction" since not one console of any system has been sold yet.  Also the word "overtake" implys a "lead" to overtake. and also for 5 years from now.

The way that loud mouth from Epic games was talking (in the link I posted), he was going over the top on alot of things, then at the end when Matt, the editor for the Gamecube division of IGN.com mentioned the games he was looking forward to (mostly Revolution titles) the crowd was really behind him.  Interesting how half the audience owned Gamecubes and 1/10 owned it as their sole console.  The moron from Epic games says you can't have a market with 10%...ignoring the fact that over half the audience actually owned gamecubes.

I wonder how many people own a PS2 or an XBOX as their sole system?  The guy was just an arrogant arse protecting his own interests in his 360 product - Gears of War.

Interestly during that show, Matt C. from IGN.com had previously been looking forward to alot of 360 launch titles (he owns and loves all systems for their individual features) until he got to play them.  Perfect Dark Zero being one of them.  I keep telling people the 1st generation of 360/PS3 titles are only going to be twice as powerful as the current XBox.  Multi-core programming is not in it's prime yet.  The stills look great but unless it's running a video, having 3x the screen space to fill with only 2x the power makes the animation look choppy.

[Louis Dias]

it's one man's meaningless prediction.  It's escentially saying that 360 is coming out first and selling like crap and revolution will outsell it with a quickness even though it comes out almost a year later (possibly) then for some unknown reason, sales magically pick up and it doubles Revolution's sales by 2010....meanwhile no mention of PS3...

A useless opinion.  Only time can and will tell.

[Louis Dias]

For fuel to the 360 fire:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=23889856

@MskoDestny

You do know that you can add on to the controller right?  Watch the video.  It's expandable by plugging addons into it.   Nintendo is including the "nun-chuk" addon that adds an analog stick and 2 shoulder button held in your left hand.  Back to the controller, it offers easy access to a D-pad, B-trigger button and A-topside button.

Simple things like turning left and right can be done by twisting the controller clockwise and counter-clockwise along the axis that points towards the screen.  Looking up or down can be done by pointing the controller over the top or underneath the TV screen.  It can be quite instinctive once you get used to it.

It changes the way you play.  Don't get stuck in the traditional interface rut.

Reloading can be like the arcade gun games where you "fire" off-screen to reload.

Revolution's controller possibilities are limitless, not limited.  A traditional controller dock was prototyped by IGN.com.  The "remote" just docks into the center of a traditional controller adapter and gives you all your analog sticks and buttons for "traditional" games but still gives you the 3D spatial movement technology.

http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=5732

ps,
it was 2:1 not 5:1 and I believe the article was targeting the US market only, good luck in Japan  :-P

[Louis Dias]

adolescent wrote:

lou_dias wrote:
it was 2:1 not 5:1 and I believe the article was targeting the US market only, good luck in Japan  :-P

Japan is such a small market these days that it's not as important as far as total sales numbers are concerned.  The real benefit to being successful in Japan is to attract Japanese developers.  

http://the-magicbox.com/topten.htm

yeah real small - for Microsoft  :-D

[Louis Dias]

@MskoDestny

Revolution offers the possibility of using Gamecube controllers.  Wether that's for Gamecube cames only, we don't know yet.  It should be noted that a wired version of the Revolution controller was demoed to several editors running on the Gamecube.  
On the "remote" controller: opinions vary.  We'll leave it at that.

On your article.  Did you read it?

The kind of gameplay-centric code that Nintendo wants to write—the sort that developers are having a hard time making run on the PS3 and the Xbox 360—can be done with the PPE, but the key will be in increasing the amount of L2 cache in the design. A large on-die L2 cache, possibly in combination with a larger off-chip 1T SRAM cache, will give the processor's integer and branchy code performance a huge boost. It will also make the architecture more developer-friendly, insofar as it's a more traditional two- or four-threaded design with enough cache to do at least some justice to all running threads if implemented carefully.

a PPC core it a PPC core, but Nintendo's will have a large cache (like the Gamecube did) and use branch predicting Out of Order executing cpu (as opposed to the 360's In-Order-Executing) which is what gives desktop cpu's alot of their processing power beyond just the MHz race.  It's like choosing an AMD 3400 over a Pentium 3.4GHz.  This is exactly what I've always been saying across multiple threads on this site.  It makes programming traditional as opposed to having to specify what code runs on what core.  This is what makes Revolution a good potential desktop PC platform for OS4.

Revolution looks to be very developer-friendly.

@Waccoon

Yeah, we all know what's possible with all that memory.

Don't forgot to add in your ethernet adapter, mouse, keyboard, new case, card reader, memory card, other easily overlooked stuff, etc. Have fun voiding your Gamecube warranty, everyone, and don't run into the problem Lou had when his Gamecube didn't turn on.

Oh yeah, don't forget all those deals on eBay, because only Idiot Ass Clowns pay MSRP.

I got my Mac mini on eBay for $335, and it's a full computer with 256MB or RAM and a real PPC that blows away Gamecube in every possible respect. Obviously, this is unacceptable for the Amiga community. We need Nintendo.

typical stuff you buy with any PC purchase.  Your point?  Oh - do you use our Amiga keyboard on your PC?  Didn't think so...but I have spare PS/2 keyboard laying around from small "upgrades".  If you want to pay $70 for a brand new wireless keyboard, that's you issue, not mine.  By the way, when was the last time anyone bought "new" Amiga hardware?  Doesn't most of it around here come from ebay?  And isn't it 12-20 years old too boot?

As for your Mac-mini, should I go quote the thread where you complain about how slow it is?  And how much faster OS 4 would run on it because it's a small and efficient OS?  That's also why OS4 could run on a GC.  I never said the GC is the perfect OS4 platform, just a potential one to help grow the market.

As for XBOX emulation, I can post numerous articles on it.  Microsoft has stated that a harddrive is mandatory for emulation.  The 360 has NO hardware in common on any level with the XBOX.  Nintendo is using the exact same hardware developers for Revolution.  Ofcourse you'll demand that I "prove it" in your typical (I won't say it) fashion.  So I will when I get home from work.

About market size in Japan.  No one has bought an Xbox as the 360 is around the corner...but noone has ever really bought an XBOX in Japan.  Ever.  Didn't they break 100k units sold only this year?  And that's in 4 years of sales.   Yes, the 360 has no where to go but up in sales over the Xbox.  According to polls around the world, it's Sony who is going to take a hit in market share next generation.  Both Nintendo AND Microsoft will be increasing their market share.

Hmmm... I wonder how many Gamecubes will sell right before the launch of Revolution.

I don't know but Nintendo will continue to sell them as long as people buy them.  Look at PS1 sales...  If it makes a profit, it will stay on the market until there are no more orders...unlike the XBox.  MS can't wait to get those off the shelves.  Didn't production stop in June?

Also, Nintendo is not targeting "kids", they never have.  If you think Super Mario 64 was just for kids...or any of their other games...you have issues.  Nintendo is trying to bring in people who are not normally gamers now.  They've been doing this with the Nintendo DS already and quite succesfully.

Your opinions are - just that.
My predictions are - just that as well.

We can agree to disagree.

[Louis Dias]

@koaftder and Waccoon

I think you 2 are getting multi-threaded and multi-core confused.  They are not the same and does require special programming.  Having branch predicters reside outside of the cores allows the branch predicter to send a code segment to one core for execution automatically where as on the 360, this will not happen and is up to the developers in there own code to decide on the compiler level.  This goes back to In-Order-Executing vs. Out-Of-Order...

So on revolution, code will always take advantage of multiple cores...having a larger cache (and branch predicters) is also what makes this possible and why I (in another thread...possibly earlier in this one) said a 2.5Ghz G5-based Revolution cpu will initially outperform first the 3.2GHz 360 and PS3 cpus.

It's like comparing my 2.2GHz Athlon 3400+ to a Pentium 3.4GHz.  It's not just about MHz or GHz.  Sony and MS are in a #'s war.  It's mostly a marketing war.  Obviously, alot of people are buying into it.

AMD has had multi-core processors for years, no one had to worry about it because their branch-prediction took care of all that stuff.  This is why I call the Revolution cpu "traditional".  It's just like a desktop cpu.  A chip that you see on the outside is made up of cores, cache branch preditors and other stuff.  Read the article posted a few posts ago (which oddly seems to put Revolution's hardware design in quite a favorable light is you ask me).  IBM can make any kind of PPC cpu you like just by playing with the components that goes into the chip "package".  They can make a streaming media cpu, server cpu, or general-purpose workstation cpu out of the same PPE core.

Sony, MS and Nintendo have gone in different directions with their cpus.  It will be survival of the fittest.  May the best platform win.

[Louis Dias]

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12670

Interesting how game sharing will work just like the DS.  I'm assuming multiple Revolutions in the same Wi-Fi zone, not over the internet...

[Louis Dias]

adolescent wrote:

lou_dias wrote:
About market size in Japan.  No one has bought an Xbox as the 360 is around the corner...but noone has ever really bought an XBOX in Japan.  Ever.  Didn't they break 100k units sold only this year?  And that's in 4 years of sales.

More "bullpoo" from you.  The Xbox has broken 100k units in Japan every year except 2004.  If you include the rest of Asia then the number is higher.    

In regards to the market, it is small.  Even Nintendo sells twice as many consoles and 2-3 times as many games in the US alone.  Europe has even become a larger market than Japan in the past few years.

I guess you can include 2005 in that <100k statement as well.

Yes, the US market is bigger than Japan...but it's still a strong #2.

Europe is 10 small markets that get their sales lumped into 1 total.  If a title sells 100,000 copies in the UK, same with Germany, it's considered a big hit.  And all the rest are much smaller.

[Louis Dias]

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/nintendo-revolution.htm

ah-toldyouso-chu

http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000320065895/

[Louis Dias]

wow for once you posted something meaningful instead of spitting out "prove it" blurge at me...

[Louis Dias]

blah blah blah...

The brains of the console are rumored to be a single dual-threaded IBM "custom" PowerPC 2.5 GHz CPU, with 256 KB L1 cache and 1 MB of L2 cache (L3 cache is rumored). The system will also sport a Physical Processing Chip (PPU) with 32MB of dedicated RAM, while the CPU itself will saddled up next to 512MB of system RAM. The custom ATI GPU solution is rumored to consist of a RN520 600MHz core, backed with 256MB of RAM and "32 parallel floating-point dynamically scheduled shader pipelines." While the output will theoretically be capable of putting out 1080p resolution (higher even, at 2048x1268), Solo says that HD support has not yet been decided (which fits with Nintendo's own comments).

I'm not particularly inclined to deeply assess how such a configuration would stack up to the Xbox 360 or the PS3, but Solo wrote that he thinks it "would be on par with Xbox360, though PS3 could have an edge in the CPU area. In the GPU area the Revolution beats PS3, and technically would match Xbox 360."

Nintendo may have the right idea. As publishers demand more and more games go cross-platform, a single-core system that's easy on developers may be the best way to ensure plenty of cross-platform support, without burning too much money on console architecture that may only be used for exclusive games. While we expect to see exclusive titles for both the Xbox 360 and the PS3, most titles will be cross-platform, and will not necessarily take advantage of the multi-core optimizations for the Xbox 360, or Sony's Cell architecture. Keep in mind that Gabe Newell recently said that the Xbox's CPU performs like a 1.7GHz P3 on unoptimized code.

In the end you will believe what you want and twist what I say as well as pick and choose bits from articles to suit your agenda and ignore the overall point.  The facts are adding up in Revolution's favor.

Revolution will require less optimization on the final coding level in order to perform at peak efficiency.

According to these specs, Revolution will have 512MB for its cpu, 256MB for its gpu and 32MB for it's PPU.

People tout the PS3's SPU's for physics (and sound as there is no dedicated sound chip).  It's process is in charge of managing those SPU's in addition to running PPC code.

With separate processors with their own dedicated RAM and larger cpu cache to keep the cpu fed with instructions instead of playing the waiting game that will happen on the 360...

Revolution looks like it will more than keep up - dare I say "outperform both in real world conditions".

Why are these spec believable?  Because this late in the game, hardware specs are getting finalized and developers have to know what they have to play with.

So on the surface, you can look at your 3.2 GHz triple core cpu and your 3.2Ghz single core + 7 spu cores cpu and say it outperforms a 2.5GHz single core cpu.  And you would be correct.  So go out and buy a 360 or PS3 and be happy.  It's a free planet.

@Waccoon
You are going off topic.  If you want to talk about a Gamecube as an OS4 platform, go to my thread or the Hyperion news post.  But the quick answer is Amigans with money to burn have already bought an A1...and there numbers are few...the rest of them running REAL Amiga hardware that is 12-20 years old would be quite content with a GC powered system.  Otherwise they already own a PC (or MAC) and only come here in spirit.  I've already outlined the costs in that thread as under $200 complete.  Yes I can use a PS/2 keyboard on a gamecube with an $8 adapter.  Again this has been discussed already in my thread and was included in the costs.  Go back underneath the bridge.

Now I'm sure any Nintendo FPS made for the console would be well suited to the controller, but Nintendo doesn't make many FPS games. If there are a substantial number of FPS games on the Revolution they will be coming from 3rd party developers and likely have problems mapping their buttons well to the controller.

So Metroid Prime 1, 2 and 3(coming on Revolution) aren't FPS games, nor is Geist.  Interesting...even more interesting is how the controller with "nun chuck" addon was demoed on a Metroid Prime 2 level running on the Gamecube rewritten to take advantage of interface...

[Louis Dias]

Well, that's why in real world tests we will see what performs best.

These specs come from developers...and I've seen similar specs in a printed magazine.

Like I said before.  The hardware is finalized and now it's time to show developers.

They are building a low cost machine as they've always said.

MoSys memory is both cheap and fast so I don't doubt the memory.  It's one of the things that people say "wft is T1-MoSys memory" and it made the GC so fast AND cheap.

I still say the cpu is a G5 with typical Nintendo enhancement requirements.  You can call it what you want, to me a PPC core is a PPC core.  Again, going with an existing design with minor tweaks keeps the costs down.

I don't see them coming out with a slower GPU than the Xbox because it's coming out almost 9 moths later.

PS3 has SPU's for physics, 360 has more PPC cores for that, Why can't Nintendo just throw in a basic physics chip and some dedicated ram (32MB)?

To me, it all seems possible.

[Louis Dias]

Having an equally fast GPU won't do it much good if the CPU can't keep it fed. Just looking at the early XBox 360 offerings, the difference in graphical quality between older single-threaded games (thus running on a single PPE) and games designed with the 360 in mind (like PGR3) is quite clear. Short of having the GPU do more work than it typically does, having a better GPU won't do much coupled to a weak CPU

Actually, I imagine the memory controller will be built into the gpu just like it is on the Flipper.  So it's the gpu's job to keep the cpu fed.  Having the extra cache also makes that easier.  So the bottleneck is not cpu.

[Louis Dias]

Well the Gekko in the GC was single core and single threaded.  The ATI Flipper has a memory controller built into it's packaging.  So was a DSP.  As we can see, it was a very efficient system.

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-503797.html

I expect ATI's Revolution gpu to offer equivalent features.

...

Projected hardware manufacturing costs for 360 & PS3:
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1497&Itemid=2