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AuthorTopic: Os 3.2 development preview  (Read 31648 times)

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Offline Thomas Richter

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #225 on: October 23, 2019, 06:13:53 PM »
Because sources are often where one find the best documentation.
This is exactly the reason why opening sources is a *bad* idea in Amiga land. The average amiga programmer does not know the difference between an *interface* and its *implementation*. Too many things in Amiga-land already depend on implementation details rather than interface definition. And, face it, WBRun only requires publically available, documented interfaces, so absolutely nothing stops you from writing it.

Software is already bad enough. Don't make it worth by confusing the source with the specs. I've lived for years without access to the sources and could write programs. Guess you could write WBRun without Os sources either (besides, the workbench source is not particularly readable, nor helpful, for that matter).

Most important though - and I am sure you would not approve - is that would allow regular users to build and share "special versions" among each other, and allow fixes to be dealt with swiftly, instead of having to wait months/years for updates that may or may not include fixes for the bugs I (and others) are struggling with.
And "special versions" are exactly what I am afraid of. More incompatibility. Yay, what an improvement!

The current model prevents me from having any clue what bugs are known and which bugs are not, or even know what is bug and what intended feature, as both changelogs and list over known bugs are kept "secret".
Oh, and that is why I have a thread here where I post the bugs we fixed? There is no attempt to make them secret, but there is neither an attempt to slow down development by pushing every little detail into the public.

Again, you can have access to the bug database if you are willing to help. If you want to nag - no, thank you, that is unhelpful and does not move us on.

Well, you know what? Complaining, nagging etc has proven be to be most effective method of getting useful information. Yeah, it's a sad thing.
The most useful information you find in a thread like this. If I see a bug, and receive a bug, it goes to the bug database, and it will be fixed, sooner or later. If you want closer interaction, you need to join the party. You don't want that - well, then that's your decision, but don't blame me for your decision. That's how it works.

Besides, you would be toxic to any kind of development team, just to mention...

I have tried, and it did not work...
If there is no icon, the program cannot be run, as simple as that. If the default tool is not found under the location that is recorded in the icon, the program fails, too. That is not different from the workbench. If a program has no icon and you attempt to run it from the workbench, the workbench rather simulates a "CLI startup" for the program. Since that does not make sense - just start the program from CLI in first place if you need to do so - WBLoad aborts.

Yes, it is really that simple.

Well, I prefer to stick with old "run >NIL:" which one can rely on, regardless of which broken version of Amiga shell that is used.
In which version was & broken please?

But I still don't understand _why_ it should not detach by itself - by not detaching, it suggest that one can do something useful with the input, but nothing is described, and it doesn't handle ctrl-signals... so what is the point of not detaching?
I still do not understand why it is needed. So, there you go. Two opinions. You are entitled to your own one, of course, but then, it's up to you to provide a program that does what *you* want, that is certainly fine.

WBStartup cares about tooltypes like DONOTWAIT and WAIT - imagine if WBLoad could support those too, _that_ would actually have been useful - DONOTWAIT would detach, and WAIT, if present, could be used to specify for how long to wait before detaching. Consider this a feature request... oh now, I did again - sorry, not my intention to contribute with constructive criticism and ideas - I am really just here to whine!
Yes, you are. If you had formulated a feature request, in proper form, I may have considered. But you did not. Instead, you come along and complain... "Waaa, why doesn't it do like I want... waaaa.". Do you actually notice a difference between your and posts from civilized people?

So you are saying that *I* am the number one reason why keep the development model as it is? Wow, I am flattered!
Yes, a prime reason. With people like you around, everything *you* don't like would have been discussed about endlessly, trolling all the way, there would be no progress, just whining and complaining. Thank you, but I believe we're moving faster without that. Things may not be how *you* want them, but hey, satisfying *you* is not the point. There are compromises to be made, and such things you better discuss with a couple of sane folks.

Dr. Thomas is at it again? Why can you not stick to the topic instead of going on rants with personal attacks and asking suggesting questions?
Because I'm really sick and fed up with personalities like you, that is why. Unwilling to help, unwilling to accept anything that is not to their personal liking, unwilling to accept explanations and unwilling to contribute. Is this sufficient? Besides, proper title would be Dr. Richter. Yes, I do have a PhD, thank you.

If you have bugs to report, here I am. Report them, just state "here is a bug I found..." good. Helpful. Feature request: "Please add feature XYZ, I need it for ABC"
If you want to nag... "Waaa, WBRun is so much better, waa..." Oh the heck, just leave. I've better things to do.

Offline kolla

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #226 on: October 23, 2019, 06:53:21 PM »
You really have a hard time staying on topic.

WBLoad does not respect path and only searches current directory for default tool when the argument file has an associated .info file with "project" as type. SnoopDOS confirms this. If I only use "Multiview" as default tool, Workbench will open the file with Multiview, but WBLoad will only open the file if I first CD to SYS:Utilities - paths be damned.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 06:55:48 PM by kolla »
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
 

Offline Orphan264

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #227 on: October 23, 2019, 06:59:26 PM »
You really have a hard time staying on topic.

The topic is OS 3.2 Development Preview.
PLEASE.
PLEASE.
PLEASE.

Offline kolla

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #228 on: October 23, 2019, 07:26:04 PM »
The topic is OS 3.2 Development Preview.

Exactly. Please look back at the thread and see how it derailed. There is an expression "don't feed the trolls", but Thomas keeps feeding me with questions, some rhetoric, some not, knowing well that he will use the answers only for one purpose - "troll feeding" (with the hopes he can get me banned?).

Regarding WBLoad, one can hope the FAQ is updated to reflect the reality.

Quote
It is a sort of replacement for the more known WBRun command.
vs. developer saying
Quote
I don't think it is "the new WBRun". It was never supposed to be.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
 

Offline Orphan264

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #229 on: October 23, 2019, 07:29:09 PM »
Please. I beg you.

Please.
 
The following users thanked this post: Tygre

Offline Tygre

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #230 on: October 23, 2019, 07:54:25 PM »
Exactly. Please look back at the thread and see how it derailed. There is an expression "don't feed the trolls", but Thomas keeps feeding me with questions, some rhetoric, some not, knowing well that he will use the answers only for one purpose - "troll feeding" (with the hopes he can get me banned?).

@kolla, you have been nagging and complaining in bad faith. Now, you try to blame Thomas. What you do si actually called bait and switch.

You don't contribute because you could never stand 1% of the amount of critiscism to which you subject Thomas' (and others?) works, who actually contribute something.

You are the troll.

STOP.
 
The following users thanked this post: F1Lupo

Offline F1Lupo

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #231 on: October 23, 2019, 09:40:31 PM »
Exactly. Please look back at the thread and see how it derailed. There is an expression "don't feed the trolls", but Thomas keeps feeding me with questions, some rhetoric, some not, knowing well that he will use the answers only for one purpose - "troll feeding" (with the hopes he can get me banned?).

@kolla, you have been nagging and complaining in bad faith. Now, you try to blame Thomas. What you do si actually called bait and switch.

You don't contribute because you could never stand 1% of the amount of critiscism to which you subject Thomas' (and others?) works, who actually contribute something.

You are the troll.

STOP.
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Offline kolla

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #232 on: October 24, 2019, 12:19:15 PM »
Here is the extremely mundane work-around I wrote... beware, it will format your hard drives.

Code: [Select]
; $VER: WBLoad 45.5 (23.10.2019)
.key PROG/A,ARGS/M
.bra [
.ket ]

Status com=Workbench >NIL:
If WARN
  WBLoad.bin [PROG] [ARGS]
Else
  WBRun.bin [PROG] [ARGS]
EndIf
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
 

Offline kolla

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #233 on: October 24, 2019, 01:19:30 PM »
Since I'm in a meeting, I fixed the script to use arexx instead of a wbrun binary, and renamed it wbrun - not implemented all the extra features of wbrun (delay, viewby, show etc).

Code: [Select]
; $VER: WBRun 45.8 (24.10.2019)
.key PROG/A,ARGS/M
.bra [
.ket ]

Status com=Workbench >NIL:
If WARN
  WBLoad [PROG] [ARGS]
Else
  RX "ADDRESS Workbench WINDOW '[PROG]' OPEN"
EndIf
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
 

Offline kolla

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #234 on: October 24, 2019, 02:00:23 PM »
And now this is there too - WBLoad should just do this on its own.
Code: [Select]
; $VER: WBRun 45.9 (24.10.2019)
.key PROG/A,ARGS/M,DELAY/N/K,SHOW/K,VIEWBY/K
.bra [
.ket ]

If NOT "[DELAY]" EQ ""
  Wait [DELAY]
EndIf

Status com=Workbench >NIL:
If WARN
  WBLoad [PROG] [ARGS]
Else
  RX "ADDRESS Workbench WINDOW '[PROG]' OPEN"
  If NOT "[SHOW]" EQ ""
    RX "ADDRESS Workbench MENU WINDOW '[PROG]' WINDOW.SHOW.[SHOW]"
  EndIf
  If NOT "[VIEWBY]" EQ ""
    RX "ADDRESS Workbench MENU WINDOW '[PROG]' WINDOW.VIEWBY.[VIEWBY]"
  EndIF
EndIf
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 02:14:58 PM by kolla »
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
 

Offline kolla

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #235 on: October 24, 2019, 03:55:18 PM »
Btw - what C compiler(s) is OS3 development currently relying on? I ask since 68k is endangered target for gcc past release 10, and that also means cross-compiling will not work. Anyone with interests in future 68k should be worried - especially those with business tied to it.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
 

Offline Thomas Richter

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #236 on: October 24, 2019, 04:15:21 PM »
And now this is there too - WBLoad should just do this on its own.

Bra-vo! Now, two comments on this:

*) As a courtesy to other users, please be so kind and create an lha and a readme and upload to Aminet. Thanks.

*) As you observe from your script, the functionality of WBRun is - as said - just a one-liner in Rexx. I hope you understand now better why I consider WBRun as program as rather low value. Even an alias would be able to replace it.


 
The following users thanked this post: Tygre

Offline TribbleSmasher

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #237 on: October 24, 2019, 04:17:05 PM »
There is a donation campaign going on to fund updating of gcc to allow further support of the 68k platform. if just a few more people chip in some bucks, it will happen.

https://www.bountysource.com/issues/80706251-m68k-convert-the-backend-to-mode_cc-so-it-can-be-kept-in-future-releases
 

Offline Thomas Richter

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #238 on: October 24, 2019, 04:18:19 PM »
Btw - what C compiler(s) is OS3 development currently relying on?

The same it was always relying upon: SAS/C for the C parts, and h68x and the SAS assembler for the assembler parts. The dependencies from Lattice C 5 and the Greenhill C compiler were removed in 3.1.4 (yes, there were really three compilers necessary for 3.1).
 
The following users thanked this post: Tygre

Offline F0LLETT

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #239 on: October 24, 2019, 05:40:38 PM »
OK, Enough.

Any more and this thread will be locked and people delt with.
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