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AuthorTopic: Os 3.2 development preview  (Read 29320 times)

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Offline kolla

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #165 on: October 11, 2019, 06:06:32 AM »
S: or DEVS:, or both?
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Offline Thomas Richter

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #166 on: October 11, 2019, 09:07:08 AM »
I'm sorry, DEVS: of course.
 

Offline treqie

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #167 on: October 16, 2019, 10:11:05 PM »
Maybe it's been said, but a couple (nitpicking) things I'd like in amigaos is improvements to an ordinary file/drawer window. If I open up a partition and then open a drawer.. to have an option to use that same window instead of opening a new window - like dopus magellan does, I think? Or to have the scrollbars visible only when there's files outside the visible window area. Just takes up unnecessary space. :p
 

Offline kolla

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #168 on: October 17, 2019, 09:01:43 AM »
If I open up a partition and then open a drawer.. to have an option to use that same window instead of opening a new window - like dopus magellan does, I think?
DOpus Magellan supports both spatial and browser modes, Workbench is only spatial, but you can configure a qualifier key to hold which makes parent window close as you open a drawer.

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Or to have the scrollbars visible only when there's files outside the visible window area. Just takes up unnecessary space. :p

This is a bug, that hopefully should be well known, as it is so darn obvious.

Sort of related - old WBRun can open drawers, the new WBLoad can not. For example from, Workbench menu, Execute Command... "wbrun envarc:sys" will tell Workbench to open the drawer envarc:sys, while "wbload envarc:sys" will just print error message about not finding the file.
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Offline treqie

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #169 on: October 17, 2019, 09:53:10 AM »
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DOpus Magellan supports both spatial and browser modes, Workbench is only spatial, but you can configure a qualifier key to hold which makes parent window close as you open a drawer.

Ah, that's something at least. But it would be nice if it was like a.. more native work-within-one-window? Maybe it's a hassle to change stuff like that.  A button the window to enable it! Or an option in the window-menu, "Use browser mode". Oh well. :p
I guess what I mean is, there's a lot of "smaller things" that can be improved for user experience in handling files in workbench, visually and in functionality.. I mean if you are gonna handle larger amounts of files, you use dopus, filemaster or something instead. At least I do.

 

Online Gulliver

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #170 on: October 17, 2019, 10:15:39 AM »
I believe Workbench needs a lot of improvement from its usability point of view. And you only coved the tip of the iceberg. It lacks so many things...

Besides browser mode, we need Status bars, Control bars, Icon tool bars, Shortcuts, Quick access to recent/most used objects, integrated search, a Navigation/Address bar, a Quit menu entry that actually works, an easier built-in method to customize all menus, MagicMenu functionality, a tree view, and I could go on forever, unfortunately.

The problem is that Workbench is so much behind that it will require a lot of manpower to get to a reasonable state where we can see it as a friendly partner within AmigaOS.

So dont't expect those changes will come out in the short term. Hopefully some small incremental changes may start to appear.
 

Offline Thomas Richter

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #171 on: October 17, 2019, 11:04:38 AM »
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This is a bug, that hopefully should be well known, as it is so darn obvious.
I don't think so. First, it has never been any different, and it allows you to continue scrolling even if everything is *currently* visible. For example, to find room for a new icon, even if the window covers the entire screen. I do not see a reason to change this.

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Sort of related - old WBRun can open drawers, the new WBLoad can not. For example from, Workbench menu, Execute Command... "wbrun envarc:sys" will tell Workbench to open the drawer envarc:sys, while "wbload envarc:sys" will just print error message about not finding the file.
The two programs (WBRun/WBLoad) operate completely different, and have completely different intentions. WBLoad is supposed to be used from the startup-sequence, and as such triggers the "workbench startup" code of programs. Thus, programs can pick up their tool types, even if they are run from CLI, and even if they are run upfront the workbench. WBLoad does not require the workbench.library up and running - which is a crucial point of the design. Without the workbench loaded, it cannot open drawers, of course.

WBRun requires *loading* the workbench first, which is undesirable from the startup-sequence. Frankly, WBRun can be easily substituted by a small Rexx script, communicating to the workbench (as it runs), so it its value is a bit limited. A script in S: could substitute it without loss.

So, use cases are different, and for that reason the programs are different.

Offline kolla

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #172 on: October 17, 2019, 11:19:15 AM »
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This is a bug, that hopefully should be well known, as it is so darn obvious.
I don't think so. First, it has never been any different, and it allows you to continue scrolling even if everything is *currently* visible. For example, to find room for a new icon, even if the window covers the entire screen. I do not see a reason to change this.

Hm - maybe we talk about different things -  For example - drop some icons into RAM:, so many that window is not big enough to show them all, and hence shows scroll bars. Then pick from window menu "select content" and "delete" - after workbench has deleted all icons, the scroll bars still show as if icons outside of visible area are present, and window is still scrollable for no good reason - this did not happen before OS 3.1.4 as far as I can recall. Resizing the window removes the scrollbars and leaves the window "clean" again.

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So, use cases are different, and for that reason the programs are different.

Yes, I am aware of this, and this is also the problem, especially when WBLoad is touted as "the new WBRun" and old WBRun is not there  - it is non-obvious and counter-intuitive - WBLoad could check if Workbench is open, and act like WBRun when this is the case.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 11:23:27 AM by kolla »
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Offline kolla

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #173 on: October 17, 2019, 11:27:31 AM »
Besides browser mode, we need Status bars, Control bars, Icon tool bars, Shortcuts, Quick access to recent/most used objects, integrated search, a Navigation/Address bar, a Quit menu entry that actually works, an easier built-in method to customize all menus, MagicMenu functionality, a tree view, and I could go on forever, unfortunately.

Directory Opus Magellan is there to be improved, sources are available - the OS 3.2 team members and Hyperion are welcome to participate and contribute, and it can even be included in the OS release.
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Offline Thomas Richter

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #174 on: October 17, 2019, 11:38:50 AM »
Hm - maybe we talk about different things -  For example - drop some icons into RAM:, so many that window is not big enough to show them all, and hence shows scroll bars. Then pick from window menu "select content" and "delete" - after workbench has deleted all icons, the scroll bars still show as if icons outside of visible area are present, and window is still scrollable for no good reason - this did not happen before OS 3.1.4 as far as I can recall. Resizing the window removes the scrollbars and leaves the window "clean" again.
As said, I believe this is intentional. Remove an icon, then scroll to allow adding another.

Yes, I am aware of this, and this is also the problem, especially when WBLoad is touted as "the new WBRun" and old WBRun is not there  - it is non-obvious and counter-intuitive - WBLoad could check if Workbench is open, and act like WBRun when this is the case.
I don't think it is "the new WBRun". It was never supposed to be. It is a "start this program from workbench in the startup-sequence". Actually, WBLoad is a pretty ancient design (from 1.3 days even) and there had and has its use. What WBRun is good for I do not know. As said, rexx exists, the rexx interface exists.

Offline kolla

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #175 on: October 17, 2019, 11:59:11 AM »
Hm - maybe we talk about different things -  For example - drop some icons into RAM:, so many that window is not big enough to show them all, and hence shows scroll bars. Then pick from window menu "select content" and "delete" - after workbench has deleted all icons, the scroll bars still show as if icons outside of visible area are present, and window is still scrollable for no good reason - this did not happen before OS 3.1.4 as far as I can recall. Resizing the window removes the scrollbars and leaves the window "clean" again.
As said, I believe this is intentional. Remove an icon, then scroll to allow adding another.

And when I have no intention of adding any icon, and just want the window to be clean? I don't want to resize it, updating it or redrawing it does not change anything... only option is to close it and reopen. It looks like a bug, it behaves like a bug, and if it is indeed intentional, it is counter-intuitive and confusing.
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Yes, I am aware of this, and this is also the problem, especially when WBLoad is touted as "the new WBRun" and old WBRun is not there  - it is non-obvious and counter-intuitive - WBLoad could check if Workbench is open, and act like WBRun when this is the case.
I don't think it is "the new WBRun". It was never supposed to be. It is a "start this program from workbench in the startup-sequence". Actually, WBLoad is a pretty ancient design (from 1.3 days even) and there had and has its use. What WBRun is good for I do not know. As said, rexx exists, the rexx interface exists.

Do you think everyone has RexxMast running?
Do you think everyone knows how to write the rexx macro needed?
Why oh why can't WBLoad just do what one can expect from it?
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Offline Thomas Richter

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #176 on: October 17, 2019, 12:18:55 PM »
And when I have no intention of adding any icon, and just want the window to be clean? I don't want to resize it, updating it or redrawing it does not change anything... only option is to close it and reopen. It looks like a bug, it behaves like a bug, and if it is indeed intentional, it is counter-intuitive and confusing.
Again, I don't agree. I believe "do not change the layout if not necessary" is a better option than "do change it, even if the user may or may not need the elements, but we do not know". This is called "the principle of least surprise" - don't mess with the GUI unless triggered externally. Window resizing etc. is requesting a change anyhow, so it does make sense there to perform a re-layout.

Do you think everyone has RexxMast running?
Yes, at least everyone who is advanced enough to have a need for WBRun. I'm still not clear what it is good for.

Do you think everyone knows how to write the rexx macro needed?
Let's be serious: Who needs WBRun to open drawers - despite a hand full of expert users? Those are able to write rexx in first place. I'm simply not aware of a good use for this functionality - except for remote-controlling the workbench, but remote-control is the domain of rexx, and not of shell tools.

Why oh why can't WBLoad just do what one can expect from it?
It does exactly what it is expected from it, that is the point. It "loads" a program as if "from workbench", hence the name.Opening the workbench.library is simply not a good idea early in the startup-sequence, and it is beyond the use case of the tool.
But hey, if you want to use WBRun, just use it. Why argue? I do not have intentions to add remote-control functionality into a tool with a very limited, but well-defined intention, but Aminet is full of tools you may consider for more specialized use cases, nobody is taking this away from you.

Offline kolla

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #177 on: October 17, 2019, 01:05:22 PM »
Again, I don't agree. I believe "do not change the layout if not necessary" is a better option than "do change it, even if the user may or may not need the elements, but we do not know". This is called "the principle of least surprise" - don't mess with the GUI unless triggered externally. Window resizing etc. is requesting a change anyhow, so it does make sense there to perform a re-layout.

OK, whatever - I just found out that what I wrote about refresh/update not working is wrong too, it does refresh window borders.

But I disagree on the principle here - when a window has borders that are scrolled, it indicates that there is something to scroll to, that there is something outside of the view that is now shown.

This is an empty window... or is it... what does your gut say?


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Do you think everyone has RexxMast running?
Yes, at least everyone who is advanced enough to have a need for WBRun. I'm still not clear what it is good for.

Easily perform a "double click on the icon" from command line, be it a program, a drawer, a project, a tools - whatever.

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Let's be serious: Who needs WBRun to open drawers - despite a hand full of expert users?
Why did you not use this argument when you included shell v46 in the kickstart?
Who needs all the new functionality except a few expert users?

WBRun is part of OS3.9, and who knows... maybe 4.1.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 01:15:48 PM by kolla »
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Offline Thomas Richter

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #178 on: October 17, 2019, 04:30:35 PM »
But I disagree on the principle here - when a window has borders that are scrolled, it indicates that there is something to scroll to, that there is something outside of the view that is now shown.

This is an empty window... or is it... what does your gut say?
My gut doesn't know. If you open your cupboard and remove your socks, my gut says that the drawer does not move then by itself. Anyhow, this discussion is mood. I believe it's right the way it is, and I don't see a point in changing something that isn't broken.

Easily perform a "double click on the icon" from command line, be it a program, a drawer, a project, a tools - whatever.
That is not a use case. This is just "I want to do A because I want to do A". It is a tautology.

Why did you not use this argument when you included shell v46 in the kickstart?
Because I have use cases for it. Pipes are very useful. Use case: "page a directory output" "sort the directory output" "search a program-generated file for a string". All things that are handy, and you couldn't do easily before. Just to give examples for "use cases for pipes".

Who needs all the new functionality except a few expert users?
That is not what I stated. I stated "an expert user can easily substitute WBRun by Arexx if needed" and "remote control functionality is the domain of Arexx, so it is quite natural to do so". I personally do not see a use case for it beyond that, i.e. "remote control facilities that are naturally addressed by ARexx".


WBRun is part of OS3.9, and who knows... maybe 4.1.
Yes, and your point is?

Offline kolla

Re: Os 3.2 development preview
« Reply #179 on: October 17, 2019, 05:27:32 PM »
Anyhow, this discussion is mood.

You keep writing this... the word you want to use is "moot".

As for the rest, I roll my eyes... starting to look forward to next time OS 3.1 forks a new fresh, this "branch" is introducing too many obscure limitations and weird behaviour.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 05:31:05 PM by kolla »
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