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AuthorTopic: Having fun with HAM8 videos @ 25 FPS for 3+ minutes  (Read 4377 times)

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Offline kolla

Re: Having fun with HAM8 videos
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2017, 05:48:58 PM »
Interlaced is much better for video than for anything else ;)
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
 

Offline atron

Re: Having fun with HAM8 videos
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2017, 06:11:07 AM »
Quote from: atron;824952
Here is a video with 5 HAM variants (HAM6/HAM8 with one shared palette and multiple palettes) and for dreamers a hires version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQg7CcgQqOU

HI Guys,  I just found out that one of the tools that I used for converting the  pictures, png2ilbm, doesn't support HAM and the generated frames in  versions V3-V5 in this video are actually "only" AGA8 frames! Hence,  there might be even more possible (png2ilbm does an awesome job in  converting to AGA though). Versions V1 and V2 are indeed HAM videos.
 

Offline atron

Re: Having fun with HAM8 videos
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2017, 10:38:08 AM »
And here is now a HAM8 video with color count ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR3VC7QodFM

[youtube]nR3VC7QodFM[/youtube]

The video description also contains sizes&color counts of downscaled variants of the same video as well. AGA8 doesn't look much different, anyways, the fun-part was the HAM8 decoder to compute the color count ;)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 10:40:58 AM by atron »
 

Offline Dynamic_Computing

Re: Having fun with HAM8 videos @ 25 FPS for 3+ minutes
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2018, 10:07:19 PM »
Hmmmm... I watched the original Youtube video, and I declare shenanigans. I have been creating and testing HAM6 and HAM8 videos for weeks now. The results are incredible considering they are playing back on Amiga's - but they don't look even similar to the originally posted video. Of course they have fringing! HAM8 does! And video playback at the 700 something by 400 something at 25 FPS is not going to happen on an unexpanded A1200. I can get reasonable results at 320x216 on an '040 or at 288x188 on slower machines.
You can actually download some of my real samples at www.10marc.com - 100% guaranteed to be free from shenanigans and playable on your Amiga!
 

Offline Karlos

Re: Having fun with HAM8 videos @ 25 FPS for 3+ minutes
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2018, 10:40:52 PM »
I'm not convinced it is legitimate but it depends on the resolution. At 320*256@25fps would need around 2MB/s sustained write to chip ram. The footage looked rather higher resolution than this.
int p; // A
 

Offline Dynamic_Computing

Re: Having fun with HAM8 videos @ 25 FPS for 3+ minutes
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2018, 06:00:09 AM »
I totally agree that HAM8 videos will playback on a reasonably powerful Amiga. Even 25 FPS is possible. But that original video was not on an unexpanded A1200 for sure. There was not even one single artifact that I could see from a HAM8 video. (Atron's original video seems to not be working - I was looking at the post below his original)

Just to be clear, the videos from Atron appear to be legitimate. I am looking forward to trying out the software that he is recommending to create the videos in 256 color AGA mode. If it works well I will certainly put some of those up on my website www.10marc.com
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 02:55:45 PM by Dynamic_Computing »
 

Offline Hans_

Re: Having fun with HAM8 videos @ 25 FPS for 3+ minutes
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2018, 12:23:49 AM »
I'm not convinced it is legitimate but it depends on the resolution. At 320*256@25fps would need around 2MB/s sustained write to chip ram. The footage looked rather higher resolution than this.
The video says it's 640x180 so the bandwidth is similar to 320x256@25fps. However, he played it on FS-UAE, and I doubt that it's emulating the chip RAM bandwidth limitations too.

I totally agree that HAM8 videos will playback on a reasonably powerful Amiga. Even 25 FPS is possible. But that original video was not on an unexpanded A1200 for sure. There was not even one single artifact that I could see from a HAM8 video. I have no idea why the original author of the post would be interested in lying about it.
The description of his last video says playback is in FS-UAE, so it's emulated hardware. From memory, HAM8 artifacts can be avoided/minimised via intelligent use of dithering. I can't remember what tools generated the highest quality HAM8 images, though. Added to that, it's clear that each anim frame has its own base colour palette; just look at the mouse pointer flashing different colours in the bottom right. That means that the colours of each frame have been optimized for that frame.

It would be nice if we could play the anim itself on our own hardware.

Hans
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
 

Offline Dynamic_Computing

Re: Having fun with HAM8 videos @ 25 FPS for 3+ minutes
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2018, 07:03:38 AM »
 I need to clarify my post. Atrons videos seem legit. The YouTube video Skolmon linked to is bunk. The one that claims to be playing on an unexpanded A1200.
There are incredible things that can be done with these HAM8 videos for sure. I am looking forward to trying done of the utilities in this thread to improve my videos
 

Offline Dynamic_Computing

Re: Having fun with HAM8 videos @ 25 FPS for 3+ minutes
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2018, 05:36:10 AM »
I did another HAM6 conversion tonight with DAMAGE_X's avi4hv and avi4aga tools - And I think they turned out well. I put up a Youtube Video of the HAM8 version playing back on my A4000D with a Warp Engine and nice SCSI drives. I find the AGA at 320x216 videos are too much for the onboard IDE of the A600, A1200 and A4000, but HAM6 at 288x188 plays nice, and the HAM8 plays OK at that resolution.

The actual playback on my machine is herehttps://youtu.be/VWkmV5R-Km8 - and the actual files (both HAM6 and HAM8) are in LHA format on my website here https://www.10marc.com/p/fun-ham6-and-ham8.html

The players are linked there, too. All of my videos play back great in UAE, and they will play great on an expanded Amiga, too. They are stored on my Google Drive, so iBrowse on the Amiga can't download them. Download them in a modern browser.
 

Offline Hans_

Re: Having fun with HAM8 videos @ 25 FPS for 3+ minutes
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2018, 09:53:10 AM »
@Dynamic_Computing

Nicely done. Looks like atron has better tools for the conversion, because your video has definite HAM artifacting along the left edge. That's avi4hc/avi4aga's fault, unless you're cropping the HAM8 images that they produce. A better HAM6/8 encoder wouldn't generate those.

I wonder if it would be possible to come up with a better compression scheme for HAM6/8 to make streaming them from disk less taxing. There might be a way of doing motion compensation to reduce the size further beyond the basic compression CDXL and anim formats used. I'm too busy with AmigaOS 4.x graphics to try that out myself, though.

Hans
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
 

Offline Dynamic_Computing

Re: Having fun with HAM8 videos @ 25 FPS for 3+ minutes
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2018, 02:59:36 PM »
@Dynamic_Computing

Nicely done. Looks like atron has better tools for the conversion, because your video has definite HAM artifacting along the left edge. That's avi4hc/avi4aga's fault, unless you're cropping the HAM8 images that they produce. A better HAM6/8 encoder wouldn't generate those.

I wonder if it would be possible to come up with a better compression scheme for HAM6/8 to make streaming them from disk less taxing. There might be a way of doing motion compensation to reduce the size further beyond the basic compression CDXL and anim formats used. I'm too busy with AmigaOS 4.x graphics to try that out myself, though.

Hans

Taking a look at the tools Atron used, it appeared that he captured each individual frame and then re-assembled them on the Amiga - wow. That must have been a lot of work. I can't find the pngtoilbm tool anymore, but I only searched for it briefly. I will look more for it tonight and see if I can use it to improve my videos.
I have done some higher quality versions using different filtering on FFMPEG and different ways to extract AVI files from MP4 files, but the file sizes get so huge they are almost unusable. I am trying to strike a balance between quality and size.
 

Offline Karlos

Re: Having fun with HAM8 videos @ 25 FPS for 3+ minutes
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2018, 10:41:45 AM »
I wonder if it would be possible to come up with a better compression scheme for HAM6/8 to make streaming them from disk less taxing. There might be a way of doing motion compensation to reduce the size

So I once thought about this back in the day when I had the blizzardppc but not the Bvision to go with it. The biggest problem is that you can't readily do simple change application to HAM frames as they just get messed up for all the classic reasons. With modern hardware however it ought to be possible to develop an encoder that can perform HAM simulation from RGB and generate differential frames within some sort of error limit. If playback is all we care about, it might not matter if we need a core i7 to do the encoding.
int p; // A
 

Offline Hans_

Re: Having fun with HAM8 videos @ 25 FPS for 3+ minutes
« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2018, 02:57:19 AM »
I wonder if it would be possible to come up with a better compression scheme for HAM6/8 to make streaming them from disk less taxing. There might be a way of doing motion compensation to reduce the size

So I once thought about this back in the day when I had the blizzardppc but not the Bvision to go with it. The biggest problem is that you can't readily do simple change application to HAM frames as they just get messed up for all the classic reasons. With modern hardware however it ought to be possible to develop an encoder that can perform HAM simulation from RGB and generate differential frames within some sort of error limit. If playback is all we care about, it might not matter if we need a core i7 to do the encoding.
Hehe, so you also thought about it until you had newer hardware. I wanted to create a more capable HAM8 video player when I still had my A1200. Back then I lacked the expertise needed to pull it off. Now I could probably figure it out, but am too busy with other stuff.

Your idea of doing HAM simulation from RGB is interesting. That should allow you to do lossy compression, trading image quality for smaller file size.  I was thinking of a simpler method where you'd search for blitter ops that reduce the compressed size of the residual image. Preferably with a method that the AGA blitter units could handle (assuming they're fast enough to handle it).

Hans
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 03:14:10 AM by Hans_ »
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.