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AuthorTopic: Wico joysticks  (Read 185 times)

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Offline tonyvdb

Re: Wico joysticks
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2015, 12:20:36 AM »
I did remove the Indivision after I noticed that the video was intermittent. Put it back in and problem is still there after I snap the mediator board back in so I'm thinking that applying pressure to the board is causing issues.
Amiga 2000HD Indivision ECS
Amiga 4000D towerised OS 3.1 and 3.9 on CF cards
Indivision AGA, Mediator 4000
Video Toaster 4000 Flyer v4.3 Millenium.
202gig of video drive space & 5gig audio.
 

Offline motrucker

Re: Wico joysticks
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2015, 05:38:52 PM »
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it really sounds as if you have a problem with a chip or two. The problem is, that just about every chip on this motherboard, with the exception of the Kickstart ROMs, are surface mount chips. That does not make changing the chips impossible, just harder. You need more than a soldering iron, in other words.
One point - when you do get this fixed, never, and I mean never, plug a joystick in with the computer powered up again!
I wish you luck.....
A2000 GVP 40MHz \'030, 21Mb RAM SD/FF, 2 floppies, internal CD-ROM drive, micromys v3 w/laser mouse
A1000 Microbotics Starboard II w/2Mb 1080, & external floppy (AIRdrive)
C-128 w/1571, 1750, & Final Cartridge III+
 

Offline tonyvdb

Re: Wico joysticks
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2015, 07:49:14 PM »
How does one unplug the mouse and plug the joystic into port 1 for a two player game then? Ive always been under the impression that the amiga was not bothered by "hot swapping the mouse/joysticks?
Amiga 2000HD Indivision ECS
Amiga 4000D towerised OS 3.1 and 3.9 on CF cards
Indivision AGA, Mediator 4000
Video Toaster 4000 Flyer v4.3 Millenium.
202gig of video drive space & 5gig audio.
 

Offline motrucker

Re: Wico joysticks
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2015, 07:50:26 AM »
There are no protections on those circuits at all. You "hot swap" at your won risk.
You "may" get away with it, if you're very careful to make sure none of the switches are closed. I think the fire button is the most dangerous. Also make sure the plug is connected evenly (all nine contacts made together).
Most game will boot themselves, so you don't need the mouse to start them. Right?
A2000 GVP 40MHz \'030, 21Mb RAM SD/FF, 2 floppies, internal CD-ROM drive, micromys v3 w/laser mouse
A1000 Microbotics Starboard II w/2Mb 1080, & external floppy (AIRdrive)
C-128 w/1571, 1750, & Final Cartridge III+
 

Offline ddniUK

Re: Wico joysticks
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2015, 03:01:50 PM »
 

Offline tonyvdb

Re: Wico joysticks
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2015, 05:41:52 PM »
Quote from: motrucker;781319

Most game will boot themselves, so you don't need the mouse to start them. Right?


not if your using games installed on the hard drive.
@ddniUK thats an option. Wonder if they are available still?
Amiga 2000HD Indivision ECS
Amiga 4000D towerised OS 3.1 and 3.9 on CF cards
Indivision AGA, Mediator 4000
Video Toaster 4000 Flyer v4.3 Millenium.
202gig of video drive space & 5gig audio.
 

Offline ddniUK

Re: Wico joysticks
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2015, 06:57:53 PM »
Yes. A few places often have them. Amigakit, Vesalia etc.
 

Offline motrucker

Re: Wico joysticks
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2015, 01:15:51 AM »
Quote from: ddniUK;781323
Try and get one of these: Roboshift
http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=819

I forgot about these things. There were several makes on the market. These days I guess you'd have hit ebay

None of the stores listed still carry these devices. He is ten years behind the times. ebay, on the other hand has them from time to time. They don't have any right now however......

EDIT:  well shut my mouth. I just found this:   http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Roboshift-Commodore-Amiga-9-pin-auto-mouse-joystick-switching-unit-/171630665030?pt=UK_VintageComputing_RL&hash=item27f5fc1d46

Amigakit sort of has one listed - but it is NOT in stock. Availability is TBA
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 01:32:44 AM by motrucker »
A2000 GVP 40MHz \'030, 21Mb RAM SD/FF, 2 floppies, internal CD-ROM drive, micromys v3 w/laser mouse
A1000 Microbotics Starboard II w/2Mb 1080, & external floppy (AIRdrive)
C-128 w/1571, 1750, & Final Cartridge III+
 

Offline rkidd7952

Re: Wico joysticks
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2015, 03:34:17 AM »
Hi,

I'm not sure the problem is a CIA.  I'm looking at the schematics (http://www.amigawiki.org/dnl/schematics/A4000_Rb.pdf), and the directional signals from both ports are handled by a shift register (U975), which is read by Lisa.  Only the fire button/left mouse is handled by a CIA.

Has the clock battery been replaced or removed?  (Edit: Yup, I see the earlier post now.)  U975 is right in that area, so it could be damaged by a leaking battery.

I'd take a look around U975 for dirt/corrosion to the chip or the PCB traces.  There's a column of pull up resistors between the clock battery and the option header.  R984 and R988 pull up the right line from the joystick, so if either of those is open or flakey, the shift register would see a spurious joystick-right indication.  IIRC, some of the pull-ups are on the underside of the motherboard, so it would be good to check both sides.

For reference, here's a picture of the motherboard.  The pull-ups are immediately above the clock battery.  Just to the right, there's a stack of three horizontally oriented  16 pin chips.  U975 is the top most.

http://amiga.resource.cx/photos/a4000,6

Robert
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 02:38:12 PM by rkidd7952 »
 

Offline rkidd7952

Re: Wico joysticks
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2015, 03:20:09 PM »
Quote from: tonyvdb;781093
I guess one thing I can do when I get home is see if the problem happens if I have nothing connected to the port2, it should do nothing if I have it disconnected?


Hi,

Did you try this test?  If it's a problem inside the Amiga, the symptom should appear regardless of whether a joystick is plugged in.  If the spurious movement stops when the joystick is disconnected, I'd look at the joystick as the culprit.

I saw in an earlier post that you also observed graphics glitches.  It would be good to check voltage on the 5V power rail.  The joystick grounds various lines on the connector to register movement.  When the joystick is released, the lines are pulled up to 5v by the Amiga.  If the supply rail is flakey, the line might get pulled to an intermediate value that could be interpreted as joystick movement.  A flakey supply could trigger other weirdness, such as graphic glitches.

Has the motherboard ever been recapped?

Robert
 

Offline Ral-Clan

Re: Wico joysticks
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2015, 03:45:56 PM »
Besides hot-swapping joysticks - another way to fry the electronics controlling the joystick port is to touch the joystick connector on the Amiga (even the metal "wall" of the DB9 port) while having a static charge built up in your body.

Any zapping that occurs between your finger and the port can harm the electronics connected to that port.

This could easily happen when you hot-swap things on a joystick port.
Music I've made using Amigas and other retro-instruments: http://theovoids.bandcamp.com
 

Offline tonyvdb

Re: Wico joysticks
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2015, 03:48:43 PM »
Hi, thanks for the advice.
No, when I removed either of the two joysticks the problem is not there. The motherboard has never been recapped but visually it looks clean.

Neither the mouse or the joysticks have any metal parts on or around the plug ends. I don't see how any static can build up in the plastic ends.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 03:51:42 PM by tonyvdb »
Amiga 2000HD Indivision ECS
Amiga 4000D towerised OS 3.1 and 3.9 on CF cards
Indivision AGA, Mediator 4000
Video Toaster 4000 Flyer v4.3 Millenium.
202gig of video drive space & 5gig audio.
 

Offline rkidd7952

Re: Wico joysticks
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2015, 04:20:51 PM »
Quote from: tonyvdb;781390
Hi, thanks for the advice.
No, when I removed either of the two joysticks the problem is not there. The motherboard has never been recapped but visually it looks clean.


Thanks for that info.  Did the graphic glitches persist with the joystick disconnected?

With the joystick plugged in, you could try manipulating the cable (particularly around the strain relief where it enters the stick) to see if there might be a broken/marginal wire within the cable.  Kind of a long shot since the issue affects both joystick.

In my experience, bad joystick cables cause the stick to stop registering input rather than register spurious input.  To register spurious input, the broken wire would need to short to ground.  The cable on my Wico is shielded, but the shielding isn't grounded.

I would check voltages if you can.  From the joystick port's perspective, the only difference I see between no stick and a stick connected with no input is that the signal lines (directional + fire) in the cable get pulled up to 5v.  The cable will impose a small additional capacitance on these lines, perhaps enough to register an intermediate value if the power supply is flakey.

The joystick port supplies 5v on pin 7.  This normally isn't used on a joystick, and in fact my Wico has no contact in that position.  (If you look into the joystick connector with the row of 4 pins on the bottom, pin 7 is second from the right).  Shorting that to ground through a bad cable could pull down the 5v rail and cause flakey behavior.  Another long shot, but worth looking at your joystick cable to see if there is a contact there.

Robert
 

Offline tonyvdb

Re: Wico joysticks
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2015, 04:33:58 PM »
Graphic glitches are there with or without them plugged in. I'm sure the two are unrelated. These Amiga motherboards ar old and I'm sure that all my pulling things out and messing around is not helping.
On a side note, the power supply is a newer Enermax 400watt ATX that I re-wired to work with the A4000 so I'm highly doubting that I have issues with the 5v supply.
Amiga 2000HD Indivision ECS
Amiga 4000D towerised OS 3.1 and 3.9 on CF cards
Indivision AGA, Mediator 4000
Video Toaster 4000 Flyer v4.3 Millenium.
202gig of video drive space & 5gig audio.
 

Offline rkidd7952

Re: Wico joysticks
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2015, 03:57:42 PM »
Quote from: tonyvdb;781394
On a side note, the power supply is a newer Enermax 400watt ATX that I re-wired to work with the A4000 so I'm highly doubting that I have issues with the 5v supply.


Hi,

The 5v supply from the PSU is probably good, but if the electrolytic capacitors on the motherboard are dry or failing, the 5v supply traces on the motherboard may be noisy or show low voltage.  If you have a multimeter, I'd check the voltage on either side of the R984 or R988 pull up resistors.  I can post further details if you want to continue troubleshooting this.

A leaking electrolytic doesn't always give a clear (externally visible) indication.  I recapped one of my PSUs last weekend and found several leaky electrolytics where the residue was contained to the area immediately below the cap.  I didn't realize those were leaky until I removed the capacitor.

Another experiment you could try to test the hypothesis that the peripheral wiring is related to the spurious signal is to look for evidence on the mouse port with the mouse plugged in.  The same directional signal lines are used for a mouse or a joystick, but they're interpreted differently for the two cases.  With a mouse, a spurious right signal would cause the mouse position counter to count up and down by one notch.  To check this, set the mouse speed to the max, then look for a left/right jitter in the position of the pointer.  The symptom would appear with 50% probability* for a given mouse position on your desk, so you should repeat the experiment (move mouse, look for jitter) a few times.

*The mouse signals motion by generating a square wave on the joystick directional pins.  Half the time, the mouse pulls the pin to ground.  The other half, the mouse lets the amiga pull the pin to 5v.  The symptom would only occur during this second half.

Robert