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AuthorTopic: The Swift Progamming Language...  (Read 2675 times)

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Offline jj

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Re: The Swift Progamming Language...
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2014, 05:37:12 PM »
I couldn't get around using a language where indentation and spacing determined code blocks.  No thanks.

And having has to use an interpreted non typed language through work for years I just feel that leaving an interpreter to work out the variable types from their use is just not cricket.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: The Swift Progamming Language...
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2014, 06:24:17 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;765743
The Swift syntax is bloody awful. They could have at least kept semi-colons to make it more familiar to C/Obj-C programmers.

For anyone who isn't a registered Apple developer, XCode 6 and Yosemite are up on TPB.



To be fair you are still allowed to use semicolons as stamement terminators... My biggest gripes are;

The bizzare function definition syntax.
The odd variable/constant type placement (though, they didn't have much choice)
The method calling feels clunky (Obj-C looks weird but is actually rather elegant*)

Due to the unfamiliar nature of the syntax, as someone coming from C, class definitions appear almost random in swift.
My confident, and probably inaccurate, prediction for the future is that Swift will be picked up by beginners and a few hobbyists... But serious developers will stick to Obj-C/C++ since they know it and will almost certainly be working in other C derived languages on other platforms/projects... Swift will then be silently dropped and remembered as an interesting little experiment :)


* I think C++ gets it right as methods are sort of functions in a struct and Obj-C gets it right as methods are executed in response to a message. Both beautiful implementations of their object models!
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 08:29:55 PM by bloodline »
 

Offline SysAdmin

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Re: The Swift Progamming Language...
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2014, 06:54:49 PM »
I'm wondering if Swift was developed to make Apps harder to port from iPad/iPhone to other platforms? It's up to the developer what they use of course but new developers that only learn and develop in Swift are locked into Apple's ecosystem right?
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Offline bloodline

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Re: The Swift Progamming Language...
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2014, 07:00:27 PM »
Quote from: SysAdmin;765754
I'm wondering if Swift was developed to make Apps harder to port from iPad/iPhone to other platforms? It's up to the developer what they use of course but new developers that only learn and develop in Swift are locked into Apple's ecosystem right?
There hasn't been any announcement from Apple as to the open/closed nature of the compiler... But if the language is popular (which I doubt it will be), then the language could be added to the gcc suite if someone was so motivated. One would of course need GNUStep to make any real use of it...

Offline Nlandas

Re: The Swift Progamming Language...
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2014, 07:18:04 PM »
Quote from: SysAdmin;765754
I'm wondering if Swift was developed to make Apps harder to port from iPad/iPhone to other platforms? It's up to the developer what they use of course but new developers that only learn and develop in Swift are locked into Apple's ecosystem right?


   I read the discussion with interest but didn't reply as I haven't taken the time to look at the language. However, this was my question - is this planned as a cross platform development system? I didn't see that discussed. As such, I had the same thought as SysAdmin.

   Had anyone read further on the topic?

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Offline bloodline

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Re: The Swift Progamming Language...
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2014, 07:20:43 PM »
Quote from: Nlandas;765758
I read the discussion with interest but didn't reply as I haven't taken the time to look at the language. However, this was my question - is this planned as a cross platform development system? I didn't see that discussed. As such, I had the same thought as SysAdmin.

   Had anyone read further on the topic?

-Nyle


Chris Lattner (who designed Swift), says Apple haven't decided yet, also the language is still considered beta as the final compiler hasn't been released yet...

Offline commodorejohn

Re: The Swift Progamming Language...
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2014, 07:28:01 PM »
If that is their aim, it would be a little baffling. Microsoft and Windows RT have just given everybody a terrific object lesson in what happens when you try to induce migration to a locked-down platform from an open one - either you leave in legacy compatibility because you can't afford not to have it (as Windows 8 does,) in which case everybody goes "well, that's all right for you, then, have fun with that new thing, we'll just be over here working on the platform we're comfortable and familiar with and aren't limited by," or they cut legacy support in hopes of forcing developers to migrate (as Windows RT does,) in which case everybody goes "...yeah, maybe we'll just not bother supporting it, then. Don't worry, we'll still keep doing development for your popular previous platform, though!"

You can't make customers accept the product you want to be making, whether those customers are end-users or developers. Microsoft's just put on a big public demonstration of that fact. I find it hard to imagine that Apple could've failed to take notice.
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Offline Fats

Re: The Swift Progamming Language...
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2014, 07:54:27 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;765742
Chill, dude. I never said that Python was objectively terrible. I've used it myself, and while it's not my language of choice, I can see why people like it.


When you come from Perl, Python is a blessing !
And personally I like the indentation a block limiter convention.

Also python is quite big in scientific world with numpy & co. taking away market share of Mathworks' matlab.

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Offline Kronos

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Re: The Swift Progamming Language...
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2014, 08:08:02 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;765762
If that is their aim, it would be a little baffling. Microsoft and Windows RT have just given everybody a terrific object lesson in what happens when you try to induce migration to a locked-down platform from an open one .......


Nice rant, just completly missing the point ;)

Noone has sofar suggested that Apple would disable non-Swift apps in future releases of iOS or anything else.

So even if Apple keeps the language to itself, it will still be just a choice. A choice that people who are only interested in developing for the Apple-ecosystem might actually make without loosing anything.

The user will not even notice if an app had been written in ObjC or Swift.
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline commodorejohn

Re: The Swift Progamming Language...
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2014, 08:36:46 PM »
That would be why I said "if."
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Offline psxphill

Re: The Swift Progamming Language...
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2014, 09:44:16 PM »
Quote from: Bif;765675
C# is used for Microsoft platforms, because Microsoft pushes it, and nobody else really.

The open source runtime Mono has been ported to lots of places
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_(software)
 
Microsoft have recently open sourced the compiler. http://www.infoq.com/news/2014/04/roslyn_oss
 
Whatever platform you want to use, it's likely it's there if you want it.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 09:47:42 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline toRus

Re: The Swift Progamming Language...
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2014, 10:08:53 PM »
Swift looks modern and nice. It doesn't look as good as Java, but nothing does (and don't get me started about functional programming).  In real life there is room for everyone.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: The Swift Progamming Language...
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2014, 10:24:47 PM »
As usual, Arstechnica have a nice review of Swift... I generally agree with their assessment too.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2014/06/a-fast-look-at-swift-apples-new-programming-language/

Offline commodorejohn

Re: The Swift Progamming Language...
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2014, 03:39:56 AM »
Yeah, it's another language predicated on the belief that it's the language that is the Source of All Bad Code and not poorly-educated programmers with sloppy mental habits, so if you just change the language to make errors impossible, why, you'll never have any bugs! Just like the last dozen would-be Saviors of Programming.

But I suppose if they're not going to do any serious amount of QA on App Store submissions, they might as well try and get the compiler to do it for them.
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Offline Nlandas

Re: The Swift Progamming Language...
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2014, 05:47:06 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;765760
Chris Lattner (who designed Swift), says Apple haven't decided yet, also the language is still considered beta as the final compiler hasn't been released yet...


Thank you. I'll keep watching to see what they decide.
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