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AuthorTopic: Aros Raspberri Pi  (Read 2098 times)

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Offline trekiej

Aros Raspberri Pi
« on: October 31, 2013, 04:52:30 PM »
How do you like the Native Version?
What is your experience?
Cheers.
Amiga 2000 Forever :)
Welcome to the Planar System.
 

Offline gaula92

Re: Aros Raspberri Pi
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2013, 04:56:39 PM »
There's no such thing as an usable native port.
There are Linux-hosted versions wich I won't use because they depend on bloated and slow X11.
 

Offline ferrellsl

Re: Aros Raspberri Pi
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2013, 05:26:19 PM »
Quote from: gaula92;751563
There's no such thing as an usable native port.
There are Linux-hosted versions wich I won't use because they depend on bloated and slow X11.

You're being quite dishonest by making such a statement or you're very ill informed.  AROS hosted is quite usable on the Pi as shown by the video on the Raspberry Pi site http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=COUrcZat6oc

Video acceleration is missing at the moment but that can be said for ALL Amigas if you want to get technical about it, even NG Amigas which have extremely limited 2D/3D acceleration.  

The native version is also quite usable but is missing audio and network drivers at the moment. http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=64451

More detailed tech info about native AROS on Pi can be found here: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Aros/Platforms/Arm_Raspberry_Pi_support
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 05:40:18 PM by ferrellsl »
 

Offline gaula92

Re: Aros Raspberri Pi
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2013, 05:46:28 PM »
Quote from: ferrellsl;751567
You're being quite dishonest by making such a statement or you're very ill informed.  AROS hosted is quite usable on the Pi as shown by the video on the Raspberry Pi site http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=COUrcZat6oc

Video acceleration is missing at the moment but that can be said for ALL Amigas if you want to get technical about it, even NG Amigas which have extremely limited 2D/3D acceleration.  

The native version is also quite usable but is missing audio and network drivers at the moment. http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=64451

Usability is a relative term: for me, an slow and tearing desktop enviroment is unusable.
And X11 on the Pi has both problems.
Amiga-like OS should never be hosted, it makes no sense at all, except for porting efforts and  debugging. It's an ugly solution.
And while a classic amiga graphics system isn't "accelerated" in a modern way, it is for blitting operations AND can provide tear-free, smooth screen updates. That's an integral part of the Amiga experience. Good luck getting a single program to update the screen in a proper, tear-free way in anything under X11 on a Raspberry Pi :D
X11 is just the opposite thing. On the Pi, there won't be accelerated X11. Never. They've bypassed the lame and broken X11 pile of poo and aiming for wayland graphics server, wich runs happily here too.

Oh, and those so-called NG Amigas have no meaning to me. Expensive computers on dead architectures for running the same open source apps I can run on my GNU/Linux box ten times faster. The ONLY future Amiga has is AROS and FPGA reimplementations.

I'm not being dishonest and I am well informed.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 05:48:43 PM by gaula92 »
 

Offline trekiej

Re: Aros Raspberri Pi
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2013, 11:17:06 PM »
Thanks.
Amiga 2000 Forever :)
Welcome to the Planar System.
 

Offline ferrellsl

Re: Aros Raspberri Pi
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2013, 11:25:35 PM »
Quote from: gaula92;751569
Usability is a relative term: for me, an slow and tearing desktop enviroment is unusable.
And X11 on the Pi has both problems.
Amiga-like OS should never be hosted, it makes no sense at all, except for porting efforts and  debugging. It's an ugly solution.
And while a classic amiga graphics system isn't "accelerated" in a modern way, it is for blitting operations AND can provide tear-free, smooth screen updates. That's an integral part of the Amiga experience. Good luck getting a single program to update the screen in a proper, tear-free way in anything under X11 on a Raspberry Pi :D
X11 is just the opposite thing. On the Pi, there won't be accelerated X11. Never. They've bypassed the lame and broken X11 pile of poo and aiming for wayland graphics server, wich runs happily here too.

Oh, and those so-called NG Amigas have no meaning to me. Expensive computers on dead architectures for running the same open source apps I can run on my GNU/Linux box ten times faster. The ONLY future Amiga has is AROS and FPGA reimplementations.

I'm not being dishonest and I am well informed.


All very good points and I admit that I agree with you in regard to NG Amigas and I find it hard to believe what people will pay for an underpowered, over priced X1000 or a SAM.  I also agree that the future is with AROS and FPGA.  The cost of developing OS4 on an ever decreasing pool of specialized CPUs will drive the cost of NG Amigas to even more astronomical prices, and eventually OS4 and NG Amigas will be priced out of existence. It's on the verge of extinction now in spite of all the latest announcements about new hardware, SMP, etc.
 

Offline Linde

Re: Aros Raspberri Pi
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2013, 11:28:53 PM »
Quote from: gaula92;751569
I'm not being dishonest and I am well informed.


X11 is slow and bloated for sure, but how is that relevant for AROS? X11 won't be doing compositing for the system beyond the containing window, will it? It's an honest question since I don't actually know how Linux hosted AROS works, but I would have guessed that the hosted AROS desktop _could_ be rendered using 3D cards and whatnot, regardless of the windowing system.
 

Offline gaula92

Re: Aros Raspberri Pi
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2013, 11:46:05 PM »
Quote from: Linde;751694
X11 is slow and bloated for sure, but how is that relevant for AROS? X11 won't be doing compositing for the system beyond the containing window, will it?


Even if the entire AROS desktop is running inside an X11 window (wich is an ugly solution by itself), that window's contents have to be drawn: a big bit block transfer has to be done a number of times per second AND MOST IMPORTANTLY it should be done in a double-buffer scheme where *the buffers can be swapped during the vsync interval, not before, not after*.

Well, this is what happens on the X11 enviroment on the Pi:
-The CPU is sodomized to make the big bit block transfer, whose data has to go across many SLOW abstraction layers using network-transparent sockets. Yeah, X11 was written in ancient times even before "modern" desktop enviroments like the Amiga, and in that ancien world of mainframes and thin terminals it made sense. Now it's totally bananas. VNC is today's solution for these situations.
-There's only and screen buffer and that buffer is written continuosly: tearing and jerky movement all the way! No double buffering, and try to make X11, a stupid protocol for networked thin clients, what "wait for vsync" is.

Don't waste your time on hosted solutions. Native AROS o muerte! :)
 

Offline commodorejohn

Re: Aros Raspberri Pi
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2013, 01:16:51 AM »
It truly boggles the mind that anybody could have thought X11 would ever be a sensible solution for desktop graphics. If they'd done the sensible thing and developed an alternative when Linux was still in alpha, they could've saved a lot of people a ton of headache over the years, drastically improved performance on lower-end hardware, and had all the pain of transitioning over with by now; instead, they put it off until they simply could not put it off any longer (now that both of their eeevil closed-source competitors have made spiffing up the OS with GPU magic a selling point and they're still stuck with client software talking to an imaginary server over a network link where both ends are on the same damn machine,) drove off legions of potential converts over the years with endless configuration headaches and shoddy video performance, wound up with at least half a dozen mutually incompatible and differently-behaving toolkits to put a modern user interface on what amounts to a software emulation of a glorified vector terminal, and ended up having to come up with an alternative anyway, all for the sake of sticking with a design that was crufty when it was new back in 1984.

If that isn't the Linux philosophy in a nutshell, I don't know what is.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline haywirepc

Re: Aros Raspberri Pi
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2013, 01:24:45 AM »
Personally, I don't think its worth the time, effort or energy to natively port it to rasperry pi, except maybe once faster arm processors are available you'd have a good starting point.

And another thing, stop whining. How much time, energy or money have you contributed to AROS? Why is it always the people who have done nothing who are so critical?
 

Offline commodorejohn

Re: Aros Raspberri Pi
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2013, 01:30:40 AM »
Porting it natively would result in a decent AROS starter system being available for under $50. That's nothing to sneeze at, at least if adoption is something they actually want. I certainly wouldn't have bothered trying RiscOS if they hadn't done an rPi port.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

phoenixkonsole

  • Guest
Re: Aros Raspberri Pi
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2013, 09:34:37 AM »
I have aeros running on cubiebord
It uses still x11 but in runs faster than any amiga below x1000.
Why?
Because we have 2d/3d driver for mali gpu available.
X11 is not the problem on pi, it is the missing drivers. So it runs in framebuffer mode.
 

Offline gaula92

Re: Aros Raspberri Pi
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2013, 09:50:56 AM »
Quote from: haywirepc;751697

And another thing, stop whining. How much time, energy or money have you contributed to AROS? Why is it always the people who have done nothing who are so critical?

I was answering an user.
And I DO contribute with Rpi, only not to AROS. But if you can play Scummvm on a Raspberry Pi in fullscreen using hardware scaling, it's because of my work here, for example:
https://github.com/vanfanel/SDL12-kms-dispmanx

But anyway, running the whole desktop under X11 is a bad idea.

Quote from: phoenixkonsole;751706
X11 is not the problem on pi, it is the missing drivers. So it runs in framebuffer mode.

I'm not buying it. Even if you had a driver (wich would alleviate the CPU sodomizing situation a bit ) you'd still be in a broken enviroment aka "tearing hell" with jerky window movement and asynchronous video buffer updates. That's why the Rpi foundation has decided agains X11 and the Pi will never have a hardware-accelerated X11 enviroment but will go for Wayland directly.

Why don't you use dispmanx directly like I do? It's a VERY easy API. In fact, Wayland uses it.
Take a look into my repository for example code or simply look inside /opt/vc for more examples. You can VERY easily define windows (elements) wich contain image data (resources) and it's very easy to have accelerated blittings and double buffer schemes.

Quote from: phoenixkonsole;751706
I have aeros running on cubiebord
It uses still x11 but in runs faster than any amiga below x1000.
Why?
Because we have 2d/3d driver for mali gpu available.

Are you using the open source Mali gpu driver? (LIMA project)
If you're using a closed source driver, then I'm not interested. I had very very very bad experiences with arm socs and closed source drivers: abandoned platforms with buggy drivers that will never be fixed and developers under DNAs, etc.
I won't touch a platform with closed drivers again in my life, I swear.

Quote from: commodorejohn
I certainly wouldn't have bothered trying RiscOS if they hadn't done an rPi port.

I'm fascinated with Risc OS on the Pi. What an awesome desktop OS! This is how a native AROS port would run I guess.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 10:00:33 AM by gaula92 »
 

phoenixkonsole

  • Guest
Re: Aros Raspberri Pi
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2013, 11:17:55 AM »
well aeros lets you run available linux applications.
what i have seen from riscos doesnt impress me.
There is a video of a painting app where you can see that there is a drawing delay. Much more than with tuxpaint on aeros.

scummvm works good too on x11 even without drivers.

the truth is that on x86 linux 2d/3d enabled x11 is faster than aros native. Also hosted can access every fs and network linux can. Nowadays linux boots 5 times faster on modern hw than native aros.

Xwayland brings accelerated 2d to pi and so to aros hosted .

If you like to moan about closed drivers, contact raspi foundation.
 

Offline gaula92

Re: Aros Raspberri Pi
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2013, 11:54:49 AM »
Quote from: phoenixkonsole;751711
well aeros lets you run available linux applications.
what i have seen from riscos doesnt impress me.
There is a video of a painting app where you can see that there is a drawing delay. Much more than with tuxpaint on aeros.


Ah, you saw some outdated video of a drawing program and judged the OS by that. Great.

Quote from: phoenixkonsole;751711

scummvm works good too on x11 even without drivers.


Look at ANY sequence with scrolling, please. You'll see how UGLY it looks.
Take a look at CPU usage on the Pi if you scale any game to fullHD resolution using the CPU.
Try to run Monkey Island 3, on a FullHD resolution, under X11 on the Pi.
Drivers were really needed...
But not only for Scummvm, but for any SDL1.2.x game on the Pi.

Quote from: phoenixkonsole;751711

the truth is that on x86 linux 2d/3d enabled x11 is faster than aros native. Also hosted can access every fs and network linux can. Nowadays linux boots 5 times faster on modern hw than native aros.


I thought we were talking about ARM here.

Quote from: phoenixkonsole;751711

Xwayland brings accelerated 2d to pi and so to aros hosted .
If you like to moan about closed drivers, contact raspi foundation.


I'm NOT moaning about closed drivers. I'm just talking about my very negative experience with arm socs with closed drivers, so others can save money and time. "If you like to moan...". What a response. Meh.